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How Old Is Your Church?
EWTN ^ | not given | EWTN

Posted on 06/27/2009 10:01:54 AM PDT by Salvation

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To: sonrise57

The problem lies that when a limb breaks off from the body it inevitably withers and dies — we see that with the Anglicans now with the problems with Gene and more glaringly doctrinal issues. There are good, Christian Anglicans, but the groups doctrinal issues are compromised by the idea of a protestation.


101 posted on 06/27/2009 11:45:44 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt + Jindal 2K12)
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To: Salvation
The facts are that once you are baptized as a Catholic you are always a Catholic.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is very irritating, and I see it as the threat of a cult.

And...Posts that such as this one are merely Protestant bashing! The founder of the religion of any Protestant is Christ. Our religion is just as ancient as any Catholic’s. The Protestant reformers were very, very brave, and are responsible for some very needed reform.

Personally, I try very hard to be respectful of Catholics. There is a **lot** right about their religion. Our nation would be far stronger if more Catholics actually followed their catechism.

102 posted on 06/27/2009 11:47:58 AM PDT by wintertime (People are not stupid! Good ideas win!)
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To: DemonDeac

The Reformation was as much political as it was religious, remember.


103 posted on 06/27/2009 11:49:05 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt + Jindal 2K12)
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To: Condor51; PugetSoundSoldier

And the Orthodox were correct in emphasising that the Bishop of Rome is just the first among equals (equals being Patriarchs). But there is a need for direction and that is witnessed by the Church standing up to repeated attacks by pagans from Vikings to Slavs to Baltics and Saracens.


104 posted on 06/27/2009 11:50:48 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt + Jindal 2K12)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
So maybe Roman Catholics will come back to the one true church and no longer be a sect?
that's funny.

But don't quit your day job.

105 posted on 06/27/2009 11:54:02 AM PDT by Condor51 (The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits)
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To: Cronos

Actually you should read some history.


106 posted on 06/27/2009 11:55:50 AM PDT by DManA
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To: Cronos

The limbs aren’t breaking off; rather, some vengeful, misguided Catholics are trying to saw off limbs of the Church they find offensive.


107 posted on 06/27/2009 11:59:02 AM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the sting of truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: HungarianGypsy
At midnight Mass one of the priests serving was introduced as being Eastern Orthodox. What are the major differences?
Oh boy. I'm not an expert on that. BUT according to Wiki, not much. Just a couple of issues now (for Wiki the info was pretty good and 'neutral')

It's mostly about the 'Bishop of Rome' (the Pope) being Supreme and Infallible.

108 posted on 06/27/2009 12:00:17 PM PDT by Condor51 (The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits)
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To: wintertime

It also is quite hypocritical. Muslims claim the same; does that mean Catholics can never convert Muslims?


109 posted on 06/27/2009 12:00:51 PM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the sting of truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: DManA

Read it — do you deny that the Baptists say that they got it right while everyone fore 1700 years after Christ got it wrong?


110 posted on 06/27/2009 12:01:27 PM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt + Jindal 2K12)
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To: Condor51

Thank you! And as Rush says, all great humor contains a seed of truth...;)


111 posted on 06/27/2009 12:02:56 PM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the sting of truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: Salvation
How Old Is Your Church?

Heidelberg Catechism, question 54:

Q. 54. What believest thou concerning the "holy catholic church" of Christ?

A.That the Son of God from the beginning to the end of the world, gathers, defends, and preserves to himself by his Spirit and word, out of the whole human race, a church chosen to everlasting life, agreeing in true faith; and that I am and forever shall remain, a living member thereof.

So, contrary to both the papists and to the nprotestant dispensational "division theologians", I answer "Eden, whenever that was."

112 posted on 06/27/2009 12:03:08 PM PDT by Lee N. Field (2)How many things are necessary for thee to know,..? the first, how great my sins and miseries are;)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier

The limbs or rather small appendages do break off — with the exception of the lutherans and the Anglicans, all other groups do not have Apostolic succession. To the orthodox believers among lutherans and anglicans, I do welcome them as Christians, but to others, I’m not so sure...


113 posted on 06/27/2009 12:03:22 PM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt + Jindal 2K12)
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To: MarkBsnr

“With his 1000 fornications a day?”

Martin Luther was getting it on 1000 times a day? I’ve got to admit...I’m impressed. When did he eat?


114 posted on 06/27/2009 12:04:43 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Blogger
How Old Is Your Church? #1, there is NO BIBLICAL EVIDENCE for infant Baptism - period. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Saying “and his house” is going beyond what Scripture actually says. Inadmissible because that isn’t evidence, that is eisegesis.

Looking at household baptisms and saying either that, "of course, that didn't include infants", or "that meaons they all got saved" goes beyond what the text says.

#2, Baptism is not a prerequisite for Salvation. It is a picture of what Christ did for you and a testimony of your faith in Him to the world AFTER you are saved. David’s baby immediately went to heaven which is where all babies go. No need for theological nuancing. Just go with what Scripture says and you are fine.

It's a symbolic judgment ordeal. Look at what OT events are referred to by the NT as baptisms.

115 posted on 06/27/2009 12:09:06 PM PDT by Lee N. Field (2)How many things are necessary for thee to know,..? the first, how great my sins and miseries are;)
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Your own personal jesus
Someone to hear your prayers
Someone who cares
Your own personal jesus
Someone to hear your prayers
Someone whos there

Feeling unknown
And youre all alone
Flesh and bone
By the telephone
Lift up the receiver
Ill make you a believer

Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess
I will deliver
You know Im a forgiver

Reach out and touch faith
Reach out and touch faith

Your own personal jesus...

Feeling unknown
And youre all alone
Flesh and bone
By the telephone
Lift up the receiver
Ill make you a believer

I will deliver
You know Im a forgiver

Reach out and touch faith

Your own personal jesus

Reach out and touch faith


116 posted on 06/27/2009 12:09:37 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist - Obama is basically Jim Jones with a teleprompter)
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To: Fiji Hill

“I’m a Methodist, but John Wesley didn’t die for my sins. Christ did. “

The purpose of this thread is to smugly attack others while ignoring ones own faults. Please don’t inject sound belief into a thread that exists to ridicule others and create bitter feelings.


117 posted on 06/27/2009 12:13:14 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: HungarianGypsy; Condor51
Well, there were multiple reasons for the split:
1. linguistic: this was key. In the early days everyone spoke Latin and some Greek. But when the Western Empire fell in 453 AD, slowly the East forgot about the West, deeming it irredeemably lost to Barbarians. The Byzantines stopped speaking Latin. And the Latins forgot Greek. now, if you don't speak the same language, misunderstandings occur -- like the filioque. Both EO and RCs now agree that we MEAN the same thing and the filioque is not meant to argue monotheism, but in those days no one understood what the other was saying!

2. Cultural: The East until the 9th and 10th centuries was culrually far "higher" than the west. They also looked down on the barbarians (with some validity!)

3. Politically: The East had the Emperor and the West you had a number of political entities: the Visigoths in Spain, the lombards, various lords and the Byzantines in Italy, then Anglo-Saxons in Britain, Franks, Goths etc. in france etc. etc.

4. History -- due to the previous 3 points, issues got exacerbated and the East couldn't understand why the Popes in the west had to gain temporal power to keep things with some semblance of order while the West, having lived without a powerful emperor couldnt' understand why the east had to bear the emperor's will on the patriarch
118 posted on 06/27/2009 12:14:43 PM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt + Jindal 2K12)
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To: wintertime

>>Our nation would be far stronger if more Catholics actually followed their catechism. <<

Our nation would be far stronger if everyone followed the Catechism.
It doesn’t have to be a Catholic either and it isn’t just Catholics.

Those who live in glass houses and all that.


119 posted on 06/27/2009 12:19:16 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: Cronos

Recommendations for really good books on the history of the Catholic church?


120 posted on 06/27/2009 12:19:59 PM PDT by HungarianGypsy
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To: Cronos

It was indeed but the idea that the bloated corrupt Catholic Church of 1517 greatly resembled the early church is laughable.


121 posted on 06/27/2009 12:20:33 PM PDT by DemonDeac
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To: Cronos

Why focus on the Baptists? The article paints all non-Roman churches with the same brush.


122 posted on 06/27/2009 12:22:13 PM PDT by DManA
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To: netmilsmom

I agree!


123 posted on 06/27/2009 12:22:13 PM PDT by wintertime (People are not stupid! Good ideas win!)
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To: netmilsmom; wintertime

Winter IS correct — we in The Church need to have a stronger reading of our faith, we should not be satisfied with raising cultural catholics


124 posted on 06/27/2009 12:23:21 PM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt + Jindal 2K12)
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To: wintertime

I personally think that thou dost protest a bit too much.

http://chi.lcms.org/lcms/synod150.htm

http://irwin-umc.org/

http://www.americanpresbyterianchurch.org/founding_ministers.htm

Not a single one of these websites are Catholic. Yet every one of them have the founding date of their church.

Your argument is with each denomination.


125 posted on 06/27/2009 12:24:58 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: Cronos

>>we in The Church need to have a stronger reading of our faith, we should not be satisfied with raising cultural catholics<<

My point is, why only Catholics? What about the Methodists or the Calvinists? Why only Catholics?


126 posted on 06/27/2009 12:26:12 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: DemonDeac

The Church in 1517 DOCTRINALLY resembled the earliest Church yes. Organizationally? In a way (that Christ was and is the Head of The Church), yes. however, do you seriously expect a group of churches with no connection to withstand the arian lombards and Visigoths, the pagan Franks and Vikings and the Muslim Saracens? No, of course not, in that sense, they coulnd’t be politically the same resemblance


127 posted on 06/27/2009 12:26:12 PM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt + Jindal 2K12)
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To: netmilsmom

All Protestant churches have their foundation in Christ. The men were merely responsible for much needed reform.


128 posted on 06/27/2009 12:27:45 PM PDT by wintertime (People are not stupid! Good ideas win!)
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To: wintertime

Thank you!

Now I understand that this article is from EWTN, but each of these churches will tell it’s founding date.

Yes, the doctrine in which each is founded stated with Christ himself but the churches started on certain dates.

Personally, I am Catholic and I love my Protestant and Jewish Brothers and Sisters. I want all the infighting to stop.


129 posted on 06/27/2009 12:28:39 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: DManA

no focus on Baptists — other groups had founders who considered that everyone before them didn’t know the right thing.


130 posted on 06/27/2009 12:29:31 PM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt + Jindal 2K12)
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To: DemonDeac

You think so? But what about that passage in Acts, where Paul and Barnabas are out selling indulgences...


131 posted on 06/27/2009 12:31:14 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: al_c

Once I began a thread devoted to learning about other people’s religions without the bashing. It was an extremely small thread.


132 posted on 06/27/2009 12:31:32 PM PDT by HungarianGypsy
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To: Cronos

You knowledge the history of these groups is completely distorted. Read something that wasn’t published by Vatican Press.


133 posted on 06/27/2009 12:31:47 PM PDT by DManA
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To: netmilsmom

Why only Catholics? Because we’re part of The Church, pure and simple. we HAVE to


134 posted on 06/27/2009 12:32:20 PM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt + Jindal 2K12)
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To: netmilsmom
It doesn’t have to be a Catholic either and it isn’t just Catholics.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I completely agree.

Hopefully, you have seen my many posts urging Christians ( Protestant and Catholic) to get their children out of the atheistic government K-12 schools. Hopefully you have seen my posts stating that a Christian's ( Protestant and Catholic) **most** important mission is his **own** children. He second most important mission is the children of his congregation or parraish.

135 posted on 06/27/2009 12:32:26 PM PDT by wintertime (People are not stupid! Good ideas win!)
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To: wintertime

So, Henry VIII was responsible for a reform. Then Luther was also responsible for his reform, but that was separate from Calvins reform. finally, from Henry’s reform you had the Wesleys with THEIR reform and then of course the Baptists with their version of reforming, then Christian Scientists etc


136 posted on 06/27/2009 12:33:55 PM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt + Jindal 2K12)
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To: netmilsmom
Parraish.

Should be parish.

137 posted on 06/27/2009 12:34:17 PM PDT by wintertime (People are not stupid! Good ideas win!)
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To: Mr Rogers

Ok, great. You have a problem with indulgences. Good news — The Church doesn’t do that now. So, when are you starting your CAthecism classes?


138 posted on 06/27/2009 12:36:27 PM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt + Jindal 2K12)
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To: DManA
Oh -- I;ve read others, check netmilsmom's post and you'll see that the groups outside The Church all have their own claimed founding date....
139 posted on 06/27/2009 12:38:19 PM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt + Jindal 2K12)
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To: Salvation

Paul wrote in Romans 3.

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


140 posted on 06/27/2009 12:42:00 PM PDT by Conan the Librarian (The Best in Life is to crush my enemies, see them driven before me, and the Dewey Decimal System)
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To: Salvation

Paul wrote in Romans 3.

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


141 posted on 06/27/2009 12:44:02 PM PDT by Conan the Librarian (The Best in Life is to crush my enemies, see them driven before me, and the Dewey Decimal System)
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To: netmilsmom

Personally, I am Catholic and I love my Protestant and Jewish Brothers and Sisters. I want all the infighting to stop.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

We need more solidarity, not less! I with you!


142 posted on 06/27/2009 12:45:48 PM PDT by wintertime (People are not stupid! Good ideas win!)
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To: Salvation

My Church was founded by God before the foundation of the earth.


143 posted on 06/27/2009 12:49:36 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Cronos

Yes, the pure Church founded alone by Jesus Christ somehow had started selling indulgences. Under pressure during the Reformation, it stopped selling them for cash.

It still teaches them, although, again, the whole idea seems to have been left out of Jesus’ teaching.

It is possible to have a serious and respectful discussion of the differences between us - but not on a thread that lumps Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists, Mormons and ‘Christian Scientists’ together.


144 posted on 06/27/2009 12:58:40 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Cronos

Bishops within the Lutheran and Anglican rites still have apostolic succession, they just broke away from the central authority emanating from the Bishop of Rome.....


145 posted on 06/27/2009 1:05:40 PM PDT by sinsofsolarempirefan
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan

**they just broke away from the central authority emanating from the Bishop of Rome.....**

So they are no longer connected to the original apostles then, are they?


146 posted on 06/27/2009 1:07:44 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: P-Marlowe
My Church was founded by God before the foundation of the earth.

That had to be a big pain for mailing.

147 posted on 06/27/2009 1:09:46 PM PDT by humblegunner
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To: Salvation

timed for the Furth of July (fireworks)


148 posted on 06/27/2009 1:13:21 PM PDT by Puddleglum (http://www.phawkins.com)
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To: Mr Rogers
Yes, the pure Church founded alone by Jesus Christ somehow had started selling indulgences

Yup, it made mistakes -- but as a community formed by Christ himself, it survived that just like it's survived other things in 2000 years. There were earlier reforms done remember st. Francis? The fact that The Church survives DESPITE some really wrong people at the helm indicates that it has God's favor. All the breakaway sects that came have decayed and withered away.
149 posted on 06/27/2009 1:14:48 PM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt + Jindal 2K12)
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To: Salvation

Neither are the Orthodox or Coptic Churches. However, their bishops were still consecrated by those whose line of succession goes back directly to the 12 apostles.....


150 posted on 06/27/2009 1:16:22 PM PDT by sinsofsolarempirefan
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