Mormons: Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon (Open)

Reachout Trust ^ | n/a | n/a

[colorcountry]

Chiasmus is "a figure of speech by which the order of the words in the first of two parallel clauses is reversed in the second" (Oxford Companion to English Literature, 1985 ed.). One way of identifying a chiastic quote is to mark the repeated words or phrases with the letters ABBA. To illustrate, one of the most familiar examples of this is the phrase spoken at the foot of the Cross:

"He saved others, himself he cannot save."

Which becomes:

A. He saved B. others, B. himself A. he cannot save.

There is an excellent web site dedicated to the subject, and it's a lot of fun as well as educational. Why are we talking about chiasmus? Because Mormons claim that examples of chiastic writing in the Book of Mormon help authenticate the book. Chiasmus is a sophisticated literary device that ranges from the most simple, as illustrated above, to complex examples. The Bible, Old and New Testaments, abound with examples and it is accepted that it is typical of one form of Hebraic writing.

A good example from the Book of Mormon is found 2 Nephi 29:13:

The Jews shall have the words of the Nephites and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and of the Jews.

The example Mormons most like to talk about is chapter 36 of Alma, 30 verses which, verse for verse, sets out parallels, verse 1 with verse 30, verse 2 with verse 29, etc. If you read it yourself, it is easy enough to identify the parallels. Does this lend weight to Mormon claims?

Contrary to past Mormon claims, Chiasmus was not unknown at the time of Joseph Smith. Today Mormon scholars have recognised that this literary form was known at that time but still insist it is unlikely that Smith was aware of it. The Book of Mormon has many examples and, at first sight, this seems impressive. Furthermore, while it is common in the Bible, Old and New Testaments, as well as the Book of Mormon, it is by no means restricted to these. It is a generally used literary style found in many cultures, both in simple and complex forms, and people even use it unconsciously. Take for example the famous Mormon couplet

A. As man is B. God once was B. As God is A. Man may become

The person who coined this phrase didn't think "I will put it in chiasmic form to make it memorable". It just came out that familiar way we all recognise but don't know its name. One of my favourite quotes is by Thomas Fuller:

A. If an ass B. Goes a travelling B. He'll not come back A. A Horse

An example from a nursery rhyme is:

Hickory, dickory, dock the mouse ran up the clock The clock struck one The mouse ran down Hickory, dickory, dock.

Even if Smith didn't know the word chiasm, he would have had ready access to the distinctive form in his reading of the King James Bible. Indeed, if he copied his style from the Bible, it would seem inevitable that his work would contain chiasmus, not just in those parts he plagiarised but even in those parts peculiar to the Book of Mormon. It is so common you practically trip over it at every turn.

To show this, you need to realise that chiastic forms are found in the Doctrine and Covenants. It can't be explained, then, simply as an ancient literary form whose presence "proves" the Book of Mormon, and Mormon scholars readily acknowledge the accidental nature of its presence in the D&C. If Smith could draft chiasmic forms in the D&C he could have done the same with the Book of Mormon - whether consciously or no. Here is an example from D&C 107:34-38

The Seventy are to act in the name of the Lord, under the direction of the Twelve or the travelling high council, in the building up of and regulating all the affairs of the same in all nations, first unto the Gentiles and then to the Jews; The Twelve being sent out, holding the keys, to open the door by the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and first unto the Gentiles and then unto the Jews. The standing high councils, at the stakes of Zion, form a quorum equal in authority in the affairs of the church, in all their decisions, to the quorum of the presidency or to the travelling high council. The high council in Zion form a quorum equal in authority in the affairs of the church, in all to the councils of the Twelve at the stakes of Zion. It is the duty of the travelling high council to call upon the Seventy, when they need assistance, to fill the several calls for preaching and administering the gospel instead of others.

Other D&C texts include 76:28-30; 76:89-98; 109:24-28.

Don't make the mistake of thinking this a simplistic literary style. It can be very complex and involved. But don't make the mistake, either, of thinking that its presence in a text is compelling proof of a claim. It is a style, both complicated and common, that the untutored can easily fall into, the educated unconsciously copy to a degree of complexity, and the trained and determined can reproduce well enough, or offer involved enough comment on to impress the unwary.

Chiasmus

is a form

not a proof.

Proof comes

In the form of

Christ.

[colorcountry]

There are Mormons who want to claim on closed threads that Chiasmus are proof of the veracity of the Book of Mormon. This is a good rebuttal.

[colorcountry]

Chiasmus ping

[colorcountry]

I’m pinging you to this thread since I am unable to respond to your question the LDS “Caucas” thread. This might help with the question you asked on that thread found here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2286485/posts

[ejonesie22]

Just because I can write a Sonnet doesn’t mean I’m Shakespeare...

[An.American.Expatriate]

Thanks

[colorcountry]

A. You may write
B. sonnets -
B. Chiasmus
A. you cannot compose.

[colorcountry]

With Mormonism it’s not the character of the messenger invalidating the message. It’s the character of the message invalidating the messenger.

(note the chiasmus)

[ejonesie22]

That is almost like a Haiku...

By the standard at hand, you must be Japanese...

[colorcountry]

All I can say is the truth claims of the Book of Mormon are really, really slim when they are forced to use chiasmus to support it.

(disclaimer: I am not Japanese although I have copiously copied many of them.)

;)

[ejonesie22]

It's called 'reaching'

Kinda of like trying to find Nephi in North South America...

[the long march]

The even sillier claim is that chiasmus in a literary work is somehow highly indicative of a Hebraic origin. Linguistically this is such nonsense. Ah well, I guess one must cling to whatever.

[greyfoxx39]

All I can say is the truth claims of the Book of Mormon are really, really slim when they are forced to use chiasmus to support it.

"The best support for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon is the testimony of the Holy Spirit."

Found in a related thread here

[count-your-change]

President Kennedy was Mormon? Did the family know?

“And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country.

My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”

[colorcountry]

Wow - Kennedy must have been “translating” via an angel is the bottom of a hat!

Regardless - he’s a Mormon now. Yep he was necro-dunked and had his “works” performed for him after he died.

[count-your-change]

“Yep he was necro-dunked and had his “works” performed for him after he died.”

Ya mean he had women seduced by surrogate? Very weird, very.

[colorcountry]

How awesome would it be to a pervert Kennedy to have both Jackie Kennedy AND Marilyn Monroe waiting for you in the celestial kingdom prepared to give life to thousands and millions of offspring to populate worlds of your own creation.

It might sound fantastical to some, but to Mormonism, it is heaven.....sheesh.

[count-your-change]

But you could fake it for a while. Here I'll help:

“Thine eyes yonder looks and sharpened countenance doth bode ill for the thoughts poised resting upon thy lips”.

[Tennessee Nana]

President Kennedy was Mormon?
___________________________________________

At some time or other every president has “converted” and become a mormon...

From george Washington on down...dont know how that sits with his Huguenot ancestors...

All the presidents are just dying to be mormons..

after they die and are available to partake etc...

At present we have a live mormon president...

His Mom, Stanley Ann Durham said YES in June, of 2008, when a nice missionary asked her if she would like to be part of some old fat lustful mormon guy’s harem and have sex and babies forever...

Mormons believe that “families R forever” and “household “salvation” “

So our current President Obama is a mormon right now...

The first mormon president...

and a black one at that...

Mitt Romney is weeping tears of joy...

[Tennessee Nana]

It’s a good thing you posted this thread ..

I never was a fan of science fiction...

After reading the title of another thread...

“The Discovery of Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon: Forty Years Later”

I first thought, the mormons were instructed to celebrate Chiasmus..They better start..

But then I remember they already do...They call it Smithmas...

And anyway the occasion I was thinking of was the Christian Christmas...anathema to a mormon..

Then, I thought the Biblical Jesus had been found within the covers...

But then I reasoned...No, that’s about as likely as the discovery of “Bountiful”..

Next, I thought it meant that Joey Smith was finally found out as a Chiasmus, in 1870...

It took them 40 years to discover he was a fraud...

But the word I was thinking about was “chameleon”

When a person is described as chameleon, the reference to the animal is generally a commentary on the person’s ability to blend into various social situations, often to mean the person has no true values, or that he quickly abandons them in company if it’s convenient to do so.[11] “Chameleons” are also people who can change their personality and appearance with ease, morphing into a seemingly different person, such as an accomplished actor or model. (Wikipedia)

Sooooooooooooo

Never mind....

[count-your-change]

Outstanding! With the right logic anything is possible.

[count-your-change]

In the case of MM there would be so many men waiting with just as sound a claim on her as Kennedy, who would get the “job”?

[Elsie]

 

There are Mormons who want to claim on closed threads that Chiasmus are proof of the veracity of the Book of Mormon.

This is a good rebuttal.

 

 

I kinda like this............

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KJV

 Galatians 1:6-9

 6.  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
 7.  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
 8.  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 9.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 

 

 

 

ANYBODY???

 

Like this fine looking fellow???

 

 

 

 

 

2 Corinthians 11:12-15

 12.  But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
 13.  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
 14.  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
 15.  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

 

Like THESE guys??

 

 

 

 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19

 

 

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

 

 

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Ephesians 2:1-2 

1.  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

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1 Corinthians 4:17
  For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

 

1 Corinthians 11:2
   Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:15
   Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

 

2 Timothy 1:13
   Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

 

2 Timothy 3:14-15
 14.  But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
 15.  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

[Elsie]

Just because I can write a Sonnet doesn’t mean I’m Shakespeare...

A rose

By any other name

Would be called

something wlse.

[Godzilla]

Then Dr. Seuss must be a mormon too, perhaps one of the ‘lost’ books.