What are the best evidences to support the authenticity of the Book of Mormon? (OPEN)

Ensign Magazine ^ | Ellis T. Rasmussen

[greyfoxx39]

Ellis T. Rasmussen, professor emeritus of Religious Education at Brigham Young University.

The best support for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon is the testimony of the Holy Spirit. In fact, the Lord has exhorted us to seek that kind of witness not only of the entire Book of Mormon, but also of its parts. When Moroni, the last author in the Book of Mormon, gave the promise of spiritual confirmation, he spoke especially of particulars:

“When ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

“And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.” (Moro. 10:4–5; italics added.)

The essence of the witness of the Holy Ghost is the witness of the book itself. Great concepts impressively written bear within them a witness of validity and divine origin more convincing than any clues that external evidences can provide, however helpful they may be. Such is the case with the Book of Mormon.

Attempts to prove or disprove the book’s authenticity by focusing on Joseph Smith’s description of how he obtained the gold plates, or on anthropological and archaeological evidence, though interesting, can be only marginally successful. Reconstructing history is difficult at best. The evidence is always incomplete—a clay inscription and a bit of pottery here, or a journal entry and a newspaper account there—so any picture that researchers develop will be, by nature, fragmentary. That picture will change as new information becomes available.

In contrast to the indecisive nature of external evidence, the Lord has provided a way to obtain decisive support for the book’s authenticity—“the Spirit of truth … will guide [us] into all truth.” (John 16:13.) This search is of necessity an individual matter. No matter how many millions have found the gospel and the scriptures true, and no matter how many people have joyfully lived the commandments, each new candidate must gain his own testimony. The Spirit’s witness comes only after individual effort and sincere seeking.

God the Father has set up a system of witnesses for the Book of Mormon. The book openly claims that it is the word of God. Joseph Smith and eleven other witnesses also testified of the book. The Bible itself serves as a witness of the Book of Mormon, and to this is added the witness of the Father himself through the Holy Ghost.

Furthermore, the individual parts of the ancient record—the doctrines, teachings, prophecies, and narratives—carry within them a spirit of authenticity. For me, this internal evidence has been, next to the witness of the Holy Spirit, the most convincing. From the many in the book, I’ve chosen seven key concepts that I feel are especially moving:

The intent of the Book of Mormon authors is to bring us to Christ. Nephi, the young prophetic author of the first books in the record, stated this clearly:

“The fulness of mine intent is that I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved.” (1 Ne. 6:4; see also 2 Ne. 26:33.)

Moroni, the last person mentioned in the record, writes, “Again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ. … Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness.” (Moro. 10:30, 32.)

Without a single exception, every prophet between the two teaches us about Christ in some way, and nearly every page of the book contains some reference to him. The overriding intention of the book fits fully the intention of authentic scripture.

Nephi teaches that the condescension of God—the gift of the Savior’s ministry and the saving sacrifice of the Atonement—demonstrates God’s love. In one revelation, an angel asked Nephi, “Knowest thou the condescension of God?” (1 Ne. 11:16.) One meaning of the word—patronizing someone—has a negative connotation, but the other meaning is quite positive: “to waive dignity or superiority voluntarily and assume equality with an inferior.” (Random House Dictionary of the English Language, 1971 unabridged edition.)

To the angel’s question, Nephi replied that he knew that God loved his children but that he didn’t know the meaning of all things. He had just been shown in vision the town of Nazareth, and in it he had seen a beautiful virgin. After the angel’s question, Nephi saw her again with a baby in her arms.

The angel identified the baby as the Lamb of God, the Son of the Eternal Father, equating the gift of Jesus with the love of God. Then the angel declared, “Look and behold the condescension of God!” and Nephi saw the Redeemer of the world teaching the gospel and offering himself as a sacrifice. (See 1 Ne. 11:17–33.)

Eight chapters later, Nephi wrote again of Jesus’ sacrifice:

“The world, because of their iniquity, shall judge him to be a thing of naught; wherefore they scourge him, and he suffereth it. Yea, they spit upon him, and he suffereth it, because of his loving kindness and his long-suffering towards the children of men. …

“[He] yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos.” (1 Ne. 19:9–10.)

This is a moving statement of divine condescension, of how God lovingly came to earth and accepted persecution, crucifixion, and suffering so great he bled from every pore. The concept of God’s condescension, unique to the Book of Mormon, is a powerful witness of the truth of the Book of Mormon.

The Book of Mormon identifies the roles of “the Holy Messiah.” The Old Testament prophets spoke often of a divinely appointed future king, of a Davidic branch with great power, and of a suffering servant who would save Israel. Despite the many Messianic prophecies, the use of different titles for the Messiah has caused confusion over who the Messiah was to be and what he was to do.

The Book of Mormon, however, is explicit about the name of the deliverer—Messiah and Christ are synonymous terms—and his work. Lehi, for example, taught his son Jacob that “redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah.” He went on to talk of the Messiah’s grace and truth, his sacrifice and mercy, and his intercession for all. (See 2 Ne. 2:6–10.)

In addition to this teaching, other Book of Mormon prophets discuss why Christ’s sacrifice had to be infinite in its outreach (see 2 Ne. 9:7; 2 Ne. 25:16); how man would always be subject to the devil—carnal, sensual, and devilish—without the Atonement (see 2 Ne. 9:8–9; Mosiah 16:3; Alma 42:9–10); and what relationship the Mosaic law has to the Atonement (see Mosiah 3:15).

These teachings clarify the role of the Messiah, and their insights bear within them the stamp of divine authenticity.

The Book of Mormon views the Bible as a great religious heritage from the Jews. The band of Lehi that fled Jerusalem took with them a copy of the Law and the Prophets of brass plates. So valuable was the record that they risked their lives to obtain it. Even 450 years after the time of Lehi, King Benjamin spoke of the importance of these plates:

“I would that ye should remember that were it not for these plates, which contain these records and these commandments, we must have suffered in ignorance, even at the present time, not knowing the mysteries of God.” (Mosiah 1:3.)

Nephi also saw in vision the effect the Bible would have in the future. He saw that the Bible would “go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God” and that his peoples’ record and the Bible would verify each other and become established as one. (1 Ne. 13:25, 40–41.)

At a later time, Nephi prophesied that most would not acknowledge or thank the Jews for their record:

“What thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? … Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?

“O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them.” (2 Ne. 29:4–5.)

These are but a few samples from the Book of Mormon on the worth of the Bible, a theme whose validity rings true and which can easily be tested.

The Book of Mormon prophesiesof its role as a companion witness with the Bible. When the Book of Mormon was first published in 1830, it boldly declared on its title page that its purpose was “the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations.” Many felt then that the claim was presumptuous, yet the millions of readers who have since believed in Christ because of the Book of Mormon have proved that the purpose was valid.

The role of the Book of Mormon as a companion witness of Christ was explained to Nephi by an angel. Nephi learned that the scriptures of his descendants would “come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb. …

“And the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of [Nephi’s] seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one.” (1 Ne. 13:35, 41.)

The Book of Mormon performs a complementary role with the Bible, declaring that the “whole meaning of the law of Moses” is to point our souls to Christ, our divine Redeemer. (See Alma 34:13–14.)

In our day, when billions of people do not know the gospel of the Lamb of God, and when many doubt the Bible and the divinity of Jesus, a second witness of the Savior is sorely needed so mankind can know the truth and obtain the blessings of the gospel. This witness is provided by the Book of Mormon and serves as one more mark of its truth and authenticity.

The Book of Mormon is full of valuable warnings and admonitions about the last days. Oftentimes the warnings are detailed and clearer than those in the Bible. One example is a warning in 2 Nephi 27, [2 Ne. 27] the Book of Mormon rendering of Isaiah 29. [Isa. 29] Many readers of Isaiah 29 have difficulty understanding who is being warned and what the warning is. Nephi’s account, however, is a clear warning to the people who fight against Zion—the people of the Lord in the last days. It follows a chiastic realignment of phrasing:

a “In the last days … all the nations of the Gentiles and also the Jews … will be drunken with iniquity and all manner of abominations.

b “They shall be visited of the Lord of Hosts” with great catastrophes.

c “All nations that fight against Zion … shall be as a dream of a night vision; … even as unto a hungry man which dreameth, and behold he eateth but he awaketh and his soul is empty.

c¹ “Or like unto a thirsty man which dreameth, and behold he drinketh but he awaketh and behold he is faint … ; yea, even so shall … the nations be that fight against Mount Zion.

b¹ “All ye that doeth iniquity, stay yourselves and wonder, for ye shall cry out, and cry [apparently because of the catastrophes].

a¹ “Ye shall be drunken but not with wine, ye shall stagger but not with strong drink.” (2 Ne. 27:1–4.)

Through study and prayer, a critical reader may test such statements of warning and admonition. In this area of scripture, too, the Book of Mormon bears witness that it is valid, valuable, realistic, and authentic.

The authors of the Book of Mormon are deeply concerned with the welfare of individual souls. The word soul in the Book of Mormon most frequently denotes the eternal self. Worship centers in the soul, and the devil seeks to cheat the souls of men. If one yields to the devil but later repents, it is the soul that is racked with torment until repentance takes place. When communication comes from heaven, it pierces the very souls of men and women.

In his farewell address, Nephi urges his people to adopt a way of life that will be good for the welfare of their souls: “I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.” (2 Ne. 32:9; italics added.)

These seven points are only a brief sampling of the internal evidences that the Book of Mormon is true and authentic scripture. But the real burden of proof of its authenticity lies with each reader. In each instance of doctrine, in each narrative passage, in each great character of the Book of Mormon, the Lord has challenged us to ask the Father in the name of Christ whether these things are true, and he will manifest the truth unto us by the power of the Holy Ghost.

[greyfoxx39]

Disclaimer: I am former LDS and "anti" mormonism. I post articles from official mormon sources that often relate to current discussions taking place on the forum to provide a means for open discussion in the Religion forum.

 

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[greyfoxx39]

Ping

RELATED THREAD HERE

[SkyDancer]

The BOM is authentic enough ... Joseph Smith Jr. wrote it and had it copyrighted ... as Mark Twain wrote: “The Book of Mormon is chloroform in print.”

[ejonesie22]

Wow...

Taking what should be fact on “faith”...

I am glad God's true word stands up to a much better test.

The only question we should have is whether Jesus is or isn't Divine.

We should not have to take the existence of the Dead Sea, or Rome, or any other tangibles on “faith”.

Paul admonished us that reason is the prime defender of faith and fact was equally important.

Spirits can deceive, eyes cannot.

[colorcountry]

All I can say about the followers of a religion that claims that its adherents can become gods is:

“The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee.” Obadiah 1:3.

[the long march]

Actually the Rev. Spaulding wrote it. Smith stole it and the rest is unfortunate

[SkyDancer]

Oh yeah, remember that ... thanks!

[SeaHawkFan]

Wow! All that to say there is no evidence for the truth of the BOM.

[Mr Rogers]

“And when I am far on the road to conviction, and eight men, be they grammatical or otherwise, come forward and tell me that they have seen the plates too; and not only seen those plates but “hefted” them, I am convinced. I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire Whitmer family had testified.”

Mark Twain

http://www.truthandgrace.com/twainbom.htm

[rjsimmon]

Actually the Rev. Spaulding wrote it. Smith stole it and the rest is unfortunate

Would you happen to have a source for this? I have done quite a bit of reading on how Bro Joseph 'translated' the BOM but have never come across this. I would be very interested to learn more.

Thanks in advance.

[john in springfield]

The best support for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon is the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

"The testimony of the Holy Spirit" can be used to support literally anything.

The Holy Spirit testifies, for example, that I'm the Grand Poohbah of North America, and that you should give 10% of your money to me.

Come on, you KNOW it's true.

[WVKayaker]

Are you familiar with rat poison? Rat poison is ually 90+% good stuff like grains, suet, etc. But, there is a lethal dose of poison mixed in to make sure death is around the corner. With ant poison,they usually make it slower acting, so it is taken back to the next to kill others, but is still using good food as it's base.

Mormonism is built on obedience to Mormon doctrines, like Roman Catholicism. If you tithe, you can get a temple ticket, allowing you into their secret places, and to participate in their secret ceremonies. It teaches that (white) men can become gods, and that womens role is to spew children, as many, and as fast as possible, both here and in their new "kingdom". Both have earthly "fathers".

It is even recommended to lie about their faith, and deny things which may reveal the truth about their religion! Their goal is personal godhood, or personal concubine. It's why Romney is whacked, imho...

[TheBattman]

Uh... because some self-described prophet and disgruntled former Christian said so...

There really is no evidence of the authenticity - no manuscripts (or plates), no other eye witnesses.

And from reading that same-said book years ago - there are plenty of reasons to discount the book. First, there is no need for a “further revelation of Jesus Christ”. Add to that the perceivable contradictions to the Bible, it should be obvious that this was the work of someone with some Biblical knowledge, and an axe to grind because he wasn’t happy with the mainline Christianity at the time.

And I too spent a little over a year as a practicing LDS member. I bought it lock, stock, and barrel - until I began to truly pray over what I was being taught.

Some really nice people - though mislead.

[vetvetdoug]

I find it ironic that God spoke to Joseph Smith in the King James’ Version of speech.

[adaven]

I wonder how many Mormons cringed when the news of the airline crash from Paris to Comoros Islands broke.

Hmm.

What’s the capital of Comoros islands? Moroni!

Where did the angel Moroni give J. Smith the plates of the book of Mormon? Hill Cumorah.

Just thought I’d throw that out there :)

[SkyDancer]

If, as JSjr stated that the plates were of pure gold and the size of an automobile battery, the weight of the book would be over 600lbs .... hefted? And also JSjr ran(!!) with it????

ps Mark Twain was being sarcastic ...

[SkyDancer]

Go here: http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/Smth1883.htm

[the long march]

You haven’t read much about Mormonism then. Google it ( spaulding and the book of mormom). This is in fact one of the earliest theories.

Much work has been done in this area by various authors. Easily found

[Tennessee Nana]

What are the best evidences to support the authenticity of the Book of Mormon?
_______________________________________

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Wait, I’m thinking ???

Got a minute ???

Got a hour ???

Got a day ???

Ponder, ponder...

Got a week ???

Got a year ???

Scratching dazed head...

Got a decade ??

Got a century ???

I’ll get it yet...

Got 180 years ???

Whadaya mean...Times up ???

[SkyDancer]

Just thought you might like to read this: http://www.salamandersociety.com/marktwain/

[Elsie]

What are the best evidences to support the authenticity of the Book of Mormon?

What are the best evidences to support BOGUSNESS of the Book of Mormon?

Well...

---

KJV

 Galatians 1:6-9

 6.  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
 7.  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
 8.  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 9.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 

 

 

 

ANYBODY???

 

Like this fine looking fellow???

 

 

 

 

 

2 Corinthians 11:12-15

 12.  But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
 13.  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
 14.  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
 15.  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

 

Like THESE guys??

 

 

 

 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19

 

 

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

 

 

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---

 

Ephesians 2:1-2 

1.  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

---

---

 

1 Corinthians 4:17
  For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

 

1 Corinthians 11:2
   Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:15
   Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

 

2 Timothy 1:13
   Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

 

2 Timothy 3:14-15
 14.  But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
 15.  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

[Elsie]

What are the best evidences to support the authenticity of the Book of Mormon?

What are the best evidences to support LAMENESS of the Doctrines & Covenants?

 

 

 

 D&C 89:7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

 

 

                         

Johnny is a MORMON??  Who knew!!                     

 

 

 

 

 

[Elsie]

What are the best evidences to support the authenticity of the Book of Mormon?

What are the best evidences to support  the authenticity of the Book of ABRAHAM?

 

The "Caractors" are the only tangible evidence in existence related to Smith's story. No gold plates, no brass plates, no peep stones, no Urim and Thummim... only these "Caractors," not a single one of which is in the purported languages.

---

 

Smith's translation of the Caractors. According to Martin Harris (Joseph Smith - History, 1:64), "I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated,* and he said they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters."

Speak right up now in all truthfulness. Isn't it revealing how Smith started out making a stab at creating believable "caractors" but quckly gave up and produced nothing but squiggles, ending up wih a series of nothing more than crude little scribbles? Yet Professor Anthon supposedly translated them!

---

*Harris must have had two or three pieces of paper with him—one with characters and a translation of them (on the same paper or a separate one) and one with untranslated characters—quite likely the "Caractors." Some Mormon "scholars" have gone out on a limb, sawed it off, and knocked themselves out trying to translate from these true Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic characters a segment that would correspond with a verse from 1 Nephi.

---

Modern-day experts in Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic. In 1829, any knowledge of these languages possessed by U.S. scholars would have been rudimentary at best. Expertise in them has vastly improved since then. So go ahead, do it. Get any modern expert in these languages to identify which of these "Caractors" are Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac and Arabic. Better still, accept the claim of Mormon apologists that Anthon did indeed so testify and that his appraisal of the Caractors was correct. (Op. cit, pp. 73-75)

Save your money! Samples of Assyriac/Aramaic and Arabic writing:

     .
 

     .
 

      .

 

What say you? Which of Smith's "Caractors" resemble the Assyriac and Arabic ones? No need to pay experts for their analysis. A child could accurately check this out. These writing systems have remained constant for well over 3000 years.

[tiki]

I agree, my granddaughter is being raised Mormon and is a very spiritual-type child, she takes religion seriously so she is always asking me questions. She thinks a lot of what she is being taught is silly and she is not being taught the full faith, I think they leave a lot out until you’re old enough to be fully indoctrinated.

[xzins]

What are the best evidences to support the authenticity of the Book of Mormon? (OPEN)

There are none.

[HamiltonJay]

Reason and a Soul are the 2 gifts God has given man that seperates them from the beasts of the field. Anyone who tells you you must ignore reason to embrace faith is selling you a false bill of goods.

[HamiltonJay]

Mormon’s I have dealt with as a whole are some of the most moral folks I have come across in how they live their day to day lives. There is no doubt the BOM was made up, but they do raise moral individuals.

[chris_bdba]

Sorry but we Roman Catholic’s have nothing in common with Mormons. Our religion is the orginal Christian church that all of the others came from and we use the original Bible not the one missing 4 books that all others use.

[WVKayaker]

You allege facts not in evidence. There is no "original Bible". To assume such gives evidence of ignorance.

What your organization claims, and what the Scriptures claim seem to diverge between what the Word says, and what your hierarchy says. You can ignore Paul, too. I owe no allegiance to a Pope (father) on Earth.

Any Christian that bows to Rome has gotten the wrong information, straight from their teachings. Why do you think they added those extra 4 books? Those books were rejected at the Council for Canonical reasons, but that didn't keep the power hungry from using them. To claim a lineage anywhere but from Christ is ridiculous. Jesus is our High Priest, and He doesn't reside in Rome.

There is no higher calling than Christian. Some are called to be leaders, but nowhere did Jesus say "build a gilded cathedral and make sure you have lots of idols and such to remind them of my death..." and be sure and leave me on that cross! Jesus is dead, and the Pope is alive... right!

Romans 7: ... 4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. ...

Romans 8: ... 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. -NIV

[colorcountry]

OOps, wrong thread?

[WVKayaker]

Right thread, maybe wrong assumption.

[colorcountry]

You’re were right to post here. I missed the hijack post you were responding to.

BTW that pict you posted is glaringly obscene IMHO.

[xzins]

Your background and experience could add to this conversation.

[WVKayaker]

BTW that pict you posted is glaringly obscene IMHO.

It reveals the ultimate hypocrisy...

Luke 12: 22Then Jesus said to his disciples: "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23Life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[b]? 26Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?

27"Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith! 29And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

32"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. ...

... Romans 12: 1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his[b]faith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully. ...

-With Love, Jesus and Paul...

[greyfoxx39]

Whadaya mean...Times up ???

[chris_bdba]

Those 4 books were not added to. Those were taken out of the Protestant bible! Where in the world did you get your info?

[chris_bdba]

You might want to read this because your information is very wrong:
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/bible_catholics_apocrypha.htm
It’s ok I know many Prostants who have converted who thought the same things you did until they came to the church and found everything they had been taught was wrong.

[MarkBsnr]

***Actually the Rev. Spaulding wrote it.***

Jamison (Zeppo): There’s something that I’d like to state
That he’s too modest to relate.
The Captain is a moral man.
Sometimes he finds it trying.

Spaulding (Groucho): This fact I’ll emphasize with stress:
I never take a drink unless
Somebody’s buying.

Crowd: The Captain is a very moral man.

Jamison: If he hears anything obscene,
He’ll naturally repel it.

Spaulding: I hate a dirty joke I do,
Unless it’s told by someone who
Knows how to tell it.

Crowd: The Captain is a very moral man.
Hooray for Captain Spaulding,
The African Explorer.

Spaulding: Did someone call me Schnorer?

Crowd: Hooray hooray hooray!

Spaulding: [Wacky Dance]

Jamison: He went into the jungle,
Where all the monkeys throw nuts.

Spaulding: If I stay here I’ll go nuts.

Crowd: Hooray hooray hooray.

Spaulding: [Wacky Dance]

Crowd: He put all his reliance
In courage and defiance.
And risked his life for science.

Spaulding: Hey hey!

Mrs. Rittenhouse (Margaret Dumont): He is the only white man
Who covered every acre.

[Note: This line is often edited from the film, and the version from
which the sound clip was taken is no exception]
Spaulding: I think I’ll try and make her.

Crowd: Hooray hooray hooray!

Spaulding: [Extended Wacky Dance]

Crowd: He put all his reliance
In courage and defiance.
And risked his life for science.

Spaulding: Hey hey!

Crowd: Hooray for Captain Spaulding,
The African explorer.
He brought his name undying fame,
And that is why we say:
Hooray! Hooray! Hooray!

Spaulding (spoken): My friends, I am highly gratified at this
magnificent display of effusion. And I want you to know -

Crowd (interrupting): Hooray for Captain Spaulding,
The African explorer.
He brought his name undying fame,
And that is why we say:
Hooray! Hooray! Hooray!

Spaulding (spoken): My friends, I am highly gratified at this
magnificent display of effusion. And I want you to know -

Crowd (interrupting again): Hooray for Captain Spaulding,
The African explorer.
He brought his name undying fame,
And that is why we say:
Hooray! Hooray! Hooray!

Spaulding (spoken): My friends, I am highly gratified at this
magnificent display of effusion. And I want you to know -
(singing): Hooray for Captain Spaulding,
the African Inquirer.
(spoken): Well, somebody’s gotta do it.

Or were you referring to a different Spaulding...

[MarkBsnr]

***What are the best evidences to support the authenticity of the Book of Mormon? (OPEN)

There are none.***

What do you mean none? Do you mean, like, as in, not any?

[MarkBsnr]

***Those 4 books were not added to. Those were taken out of the Protestant bible! Where in the world did you get your info?***

Shhh. If the loonies can divert the attention of the sane by claiming that the LDS is equivalent with the Church of Jesus Christ (also known as the Catholic Church), then the examination of their own increasingly divergent beliefs might be allayed at least for the moment.

The Christian Church is a Patristic one. The problem is when individuals take the role without merit upon themselves, gainsaying 2000 years of the true Church. Let’s not get involved in a critique of the BOM, which is a fascinating read, not unlike the various Protestant Confessions that spread like duckweed on ponds in the 1500s and 1600s.

[WVKayaker]

Chris, I understand your organization's dogma. I understand it's origins, and it's current status. I know that over the years it has changed with the times. That. by itself, is enough to rule it out as "THE" church. God doesn't change His mind.

You know your church. I know my Savior's words. Your "sacraments" aren't your salvation. Jesus paid that price! Your church can't forgive you. Jesus will, if you ask Him.

Mary is just another woman, chosen by God. Yet, your church prays especially to her, and conducts ceremonies to celebrate her. Roman Catholics get excited when a statue of mary "weeps", or a potato looks like their idea of Christ. That is idolatry, essentially licensed by the Roman elders, and encouraged against Scripture. Jesus told us to pray to God, our Father, in His name. His name, Jesus, gives us the power over death.

I am not confused. I know in whom I believe. He is the Christ, the One spoken by the Prophets, Jesus. You are welcome to stay within that prison, if you wish. I prefer to live by the Spirit, promised by Jesus...

Romans 14: 1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. -NIV

Love, Paul...

[chris_bdba]

Again I will tell you that you know nothing about the RC church you only know what you have been told about it and what you have been told is wrong. I know it is hard for you to understand but whatever religion you were raised in lied to you about what Catholic’s do. I go though this often with with Prostant’s once they find out they have been lied to all of their lives about what the church is and does. We pray to Christ and to God, not to idols or anything else, you might want to read the prayers and see that when anyone else is mentioned it is always in the context of a prayer to the Father and to the Son, ALWAYS.

[chris_bdba]

LOL Glad someone else knows the truth and don’t rely upon heresay about what they have been told in their church. :) I have talked to 4 amazed converts this week who have just been floored about what they were told about the RC Church and what the reality is. Many feel betrayed by the falsehoods passed on to them. It’s really nasty what some churches teach to keep their own flock loyal. Someday they will know he truth just too bad that it will be too late for them.

[Godzilla]

These seven points are only a brief sampling of the internal evidences that the Book of Mormon is true and authentic scripture. But the real burden of proof of its authenticity lies with each reader. In each instance of doctrine, in each narrative passage, in each great character of the Book of Mormon, the Lord has challenged us to ask the Father in the name of Christ whether these things are true, and he will manifest the truth unto us by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Internal evidence, only IF one considers the bom to be true and equal to the bible to begin with. It is like the word of a scam artist - "see, I'm telling you the truth".

[WVKayaker]

Again, I will tell, you are barking up the wrong tree. I am not blind to the truth. I don't accept your church's dogma. I do not accept it's alleged "authority".

I wish you well, and hope you come to know Jesus as I, and many other fine Christians, know Him. He is not in your glorious temples. He is in our hearts.

I will not answer any more of your posts, unless you are willing to accept Scripture as the arbiter... after all, it is the inspired (translated "God-breathed") Word of God. I do not accept anything decided out of Rome. That would be against Scripture.

2 Corinthians 5: 6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

11Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. _NIV

-with love, Paul...

[WVKayaker]

Why has this open thread been relegated to the Religion thread? I thought we had an open dialogue here.

[magisterium]

The level of your expertise in this matter is amply demonstrated by the fact that you didn't even pick up on chris' doubtless inadvertent error, and in fact used it in return. There are seven missing books (and parts of two others) deleted from Protestant Bibles, not merely four. If you don't know this, why should we listen to the rest of your argumentation?

And to which Council do you refer when you say the "4 books" were rejected for canonical reasons?

[WVKayaker]

...We pray to Christ and to God, not to idols or anything else, you might want to read the prayers and see that when anyone else is mentioned it is always in the context of a prayer to the Father and to the Son, ALWAYS.

Well, maybe not always... This prayer seems to be directed to a dead person without power. Jesus is our ONLY intercessor, with His Holy Spirit!

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.

Amen.

Jesus had some further words about Mary in Luke 8: 19Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. 20Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you."

21He replied, "My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice."

[WVKayaker]

There are no missing Books in the Bible, FRiend...

[WVKayaker]

I know it is hard for you to understand but whatever religion you were raised in lied to you about what Catholic’s do... -chris

It is harder for the Roman Catholic to understand the life in the Spirit! If the priest doesn't say it, it can't be right, right?

John 14: 15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"

23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. -NIV

- with love, Jesus