Posted on 07/14/2009 11:41:13 PM PDT by Quix
In what ways does C. S. Lewis take forsake his beliefs in the Narnia series? Very Christian, in my way of thinking.
Don’t get that started here. The takes of the popular media from Reuters and AP have been thoroughly debunked by other authors — and they aren’t all Catholic. I don’t want to hijack your thread here about that.
And, similarly, THE SHACK is very Christian, imho.
Both are allegories in a list of ways.
Neither are Scripture.
I found both very faithful TO Scripture though each used various literary devices to illustrate various Scriptural truths.
I found both very faithful to Scripture.
Is God a furry lion. No. Is Jesus the Lion of Judah, yes.
Similar stuff in THE SHACK.
I would expect that book to be quite interesting.
Happy to comply.
I also have read the God Chasers. I LOVED that book as well. It birthed a desire in me that I would no longer be content with the status quo of "church". I can settle for no less than all of my Lord.
I am currently reading a book (and commentary) by Paul Philip Levertoff titled Love and the Messianic Age. This book has surpassed any other book I have read so far in that my love for the LORD has multiplied to a degree I do not yet understand.
Here's a few excerpts from the book:
In His relations with man on earth, God has shown Himself a king who desires to make His abode with us her below. The higher a being, the lower he is able to condescend. God wished to be among the small and despised, not as a sultan ruling in his palace, hidden and ruling only by power, but as a good and wise king whose one desire is to draw his subjects to himself; a king who also, out of love for his own, forsakes his palace and dwells among his people in order to unite himself with them, that they may see more of his glory and learn more of his character.
Creation, indeed, signifies of God's perfection. In creation God has by an act of self-limitation created conscious beings, that these may have the joy, first, of realizing their selfhood, and then, of realizing Him, their Creator, and of receiving Him into their innermost life as their Father and King. The proof of God's love lies less in the fact that He raises creatures to Himself, than in that He stoops to have His tabernacle among men and thus reveal Himself to them. A beautiful simile illustrates this point. It is as though a man accompanied by his young son were climbing a mountain. As the father reaches the summit, he turns to find that the son is far below. But they can still see one another. The son longs to reach the father, but the higher he rises, the more strenuous becomes the task. What does the father do when he sees the intense desire on the part of the son to come to him? He can restrain himself no longer, but comes down to meet him. Even so does God in answer to the strivings of the mystic soul. (p.35 & 36)
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When all our thoughts and actions are the outcome of divine inspiration, then we unite everything that is seemingly separated from and independent of God with Him. And so we cooperate with Him in His redemptive activities and prepare the way for the Messiah. The following parable illustrates this:
A king lost a costly pearl. He sent out his three sons to find it. The first set out, glad to be free from the restraint of his father's presence. He cared neither for the pearl nor for his father. He never returned, but spent his life in following his own pleasure. The second set forth, made a hasty search, and quickly returned to his father's house, not because he so greatly loved his father but because he was loath to be away so long from the comforts of his home. Now, the third set out, full of sorrow at leaving his home and his beloved father, but determined, notwithstanding all his own suffering and separation, to stay away and make diligent search until he should find the pearl, because he knew what great joy the finding of it would give to his father.
One man is altogether absorbed in the things of this world. Another is eager to please God, not out of love for Him, but because he is afraid to lose the future bliss in paradise. But there are some men who love God for His own sake and search for the divine sparks which are scattered in this world, in man and nature, and try to bring them back to their source.
Man has been created by God in order that he may finish what God has deliberately left unfinished. Not that God needs the help of His creatures, but it is His love which causes Him to impart His own Nature to the work of His hands, in order that man should have the privilege and joy of becoming His fellow-worker in this world, in natural as well as in spiritual life.(p. 40 & 41)
Thanks for the ping!
Amen!
However, Scripture teaches that authority and submission are inherent to the Godhead and have existed from the beginning. Jesus was sent by the Father, and He does the will of the Father. He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane that not His will be done, by Thy will be done. Jesus submits to the authority of the Father. These are not the results of sin; they are the very nature of the Godhead in which all three persons are equal in essence but exist within a hierarchy of authority and submission.
There are clear examples of authority and submission throughout the Bible. The book of Matthew is focused on the authority of Jesus Christ. The angels have rank and levels of authority. Wives should submit to their husbands and we must submit to the authority of God and Jesus Christ.
Amen again.
We need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the Romanist holy bath water. We are to submit ourselves to the authority of Scripture where our own personal sanctification by the Holy Spirit is augmented by worshiping as a congregation of like-minded believers in a church led by representatives elected from among the congregation.
That's why I find the presbyterian form of church structuring so productive. It is not a vertical hierarchy of Rome. It is not a horizontal hierarchy of no authority. It is a diagonal hierarchy made up of believers who are all bound by the word of God.
There is a church of Jesus Christ on earth to which we submit for learning and discipline, but only if and when that church is preaching the truth of the risen Christ. If not, we are told to leave it behind and find a congregation that does honor and submit to the word of God above all else.
That's why of the 33 chapters of the Westminster Confession of Faith, the very first chapter is "Of the Holy Scripture" while "Of the Church" is chapter 25.
Excellent points.
Will keep an eye out for your last book recommend.
Thanks much for your post.
I quite agree.
PRAISE GOD.
That's why I find the presbyterian form of church structuring so productive. It is not a vertical hierarchy of Rome. It is not a horizontal hierarchy of no authority. It is a diagonal hierarchy made up of believers who are all bound by the word of God.
There is a church of Jesus Christ on earth to which we submit for learning and discipline, but only if and when that church is preaching the truth of the risen Christ. If not, we are told to leave it behind and find a congregation that does honor and submit to the word of God above all else.
That's why of the 33 chapters of the Westminster Confession of Faith, the very first chapter is "Of the Holy Scripture" while "Of the Church" is chapter 25.
Amen, and AMEN Dr E!
Thanks for your thoughtful post.
Second, there is something VERY SERIOUSLY WRONG with someone who makes the claim that all they can find in the Bible is "about Jesus" and still want to know more. The Bible IS our relationship to God through which He speaks to our hearts. It convict us of sin, righteousness and judgment. I don't know any legitimate Christian that will not tell you they can study the word of God year after year and still find new and exciting things in it. There is no other book like that. A person cannot do any better than the word of God. It is the ONLY thing on this earth that ISN'T of this earth. What the author is saying is that the Bible is simply not enough-a very dangerous position. Think of it as telling God that He didn't provide enough information.
Third, who doesn't know the churches are filled with people who don't know God-especially the liberal Episcopals? These are the tares of the church. True Christians do NOT reflect society but reflect the divine nature of God. We all have our faults but true Christians keep on striving because of God's Spirit. So you can either blame the tares for not knowing God, or you can blame the Christians for not being as perfected as they should be. But what's the point?
Personally, I find the part of him telling about the pastor wanting him to come back again and again because he packed them in was a bit full of pride. People who say they "feel" they really are getting close to God reminds me of the many people in the Old Testament who thought they were just as good as Moses before God; everyone of which got quite a surprise-from Koran to Aaron and Marian. It is God who picks out the person who He chooses to talk to face to face-not the other way around. And Moses was certainly humbled by the experience since we read that he was the most humblest man in the world. It is rather arrogant to suggest we can get close to God unless He draws us to Him. And it is only when He draws us that we see our own wretchness.
I could go on, but there seems to be plenty to say this book appears to be filled with errors and misconceptions.
Dear Harley,
I think you misperceived some things wholesale . . . beginning with getting the books wrong.
The excerpts were from THE GOD CHASERS, and NOT from THE SHACK.
I hope to comment later . . . on your specific complaints about what Tommy had to say in THE GOD CHASERS.
OBVIOUSLY, you’ve NEVER BEEN IN that kind of service else your assumptions and perspectives would be wholesale different. There is NO comparison with conventional services.
And, you seemed to not notice and assumed quite INCORRECTLY, Tommy had NOTHING to do with folks thronging to the church. That phenomena was 100% God. Tommy was as much along for the ride as the rest of the folks. Evidently you missed the part about there being absolutely no preaching and even little music. GOD WAS ON THE SCENE WITH HIS PRESENCE. NOTHING ELSE COULD HOLD A CANDLE TO THAT.
Obviously you’ve never EXPERIENCED that on anything close to such a scale or your perceptions and biases would have been forever changed about it and you could not have written what you did that I’m responding to.
The lengthy excerpts were NOT from THE SHACK. They were from Tommy Tenney's THE GOD CHASERS.
I have found that THAT tends to depend on the level of arrogance the "Christian" concerned tends to . . . harbor . . . as well as how much of a "Biblical scholar" they consider themselves to be. Certainly you are right about the authentic "broken and contrite authentic Christians" and I'm confident that Tommy T would agree.
Maybe this is a good place to make the observation that your construction on Biblical, theological and conventional reality APPEARS TO BE SUCH that there's ABSOLUTELY NO PROVISION for; no room for; no capacity for God to act OUTSIDE of the box you have Him in. Doesn't mean any evil intent or any such--just a great lack.
In some respects, it's like a 2 dimensional flat-lander trying to fantasize about what life in 4 dimensions is like--or even 3. Only it appears, it sounds like you're not even allowing so much as a possibility of such to even begin to allow the possibility or capacity or attractiveness of even such fantasizing.
In a LOT of respects, it saddens me deeply to think, realize, read you assert that as wonderful and constantly unfolding enlargements on realities about Christ that Scripture is--CHRIST CANNOT BE CONTAINED IN SCRIPTURE. EVEN SCRIPTURE IS TOOOOO FINITE in a list of ways. That you seem to construe it that all of the knowable Christ, Father, Spirit COULD be contained in Scripture boggles my mind. I see you as sharper than to be so limited to such an inaccurate, anemic, UNBiblical perspective on that score.
There is NO way that Scripture, as alive as it is, could possibly be MORE than ABOUT CHRIST, Father, Spirit. The finite book in your hands, on your shelves CANNOT be the living infinite GOD OF ALL CREATION. As J.B. Philips book title exhorted: YOUR GOD IS TOO SMALL.
Yes and no. Mostly no.
Yes, God speaks to us THROUGH SCRIPTURE. NOT ONLY. As Scripture attests, the He speaks to all individuals through the Heavens, too. Certainly He speaks to us through circumstances.
Certainly any serious Christian for very long has had the experience of Holy Spirit causing a verse or part of a verse to JUMP OUT AT THEM when they've been travailing over a big problem in their lives and suddenly they realize that God has spoken specifically to their concerns, needs, questions about that heavy duty problem very specifically and supernaturally using that verse in the Scripture.
HOWEVER, THAT EXPERIENCE was NOT Scripture per se JUMPING out at them. That was HOLY SPIRIT (the Author) CAUSING SCRIPTURE to jump out at them in specific terms at a specific point in time and space about a specific problem of great need and concern to that specific individual.
NO, EVEN SCRIPTURE IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE to do a stand-in role for the LIVING ALMIGHTY INFINITE GOD OF ALL CREATION in even one single relationship with one single individual--much less all Believers.
The Ten Commandments could not do it. God still invited the Israelites to meet Him at the TENT OF MEETING FOR INTIMATE SUPERNATURAL DIALOGUE WITH THE LIVING GOD. They were afraid to do so and insisted that Moses be the go-between. Moses was inadequate to that task and certainly a finite book of even Scripture is also wholesale inadequate to fill that role.
Certainly Scripture can introduce us, WITH HOLY SPIRIT'S HELP--TO GOD. And Scripture can facilitate our LIVING FOR GOD and even to some degree, our dialogue with God. But it CANNOT fill God Almighty's role of active IN THE PRESENT DIALOGUE with each individual. It cannot. And God knows I've tried every way I know how to get it to fill that role. Doesn't work. Won't work. CANNOT work.
QUITE SO. And that has nothing to do with the point. That is still INADEQUATE--THAT STILL DOES NOT AND CANNOT rise to the level of filling Infinite Almighty God's role and desire to actively dialogue with us on an ongoing basis 1:1.
WRONG. THAT'S an UNBiblical assertion.
Moses had the Ten Commandments and He had ongoing intimate daily dialogue with Almighty God. You think he equated those two? Nonsense!
The Apostles had the Old Testament and a growing body of the New Testament. Post Acts 2 and Pentecost, they also had the Indwelling Holy Spirit carrying on the Dialogue with Almighty God 1:1. They could consider Scriptures as I Cor 12-14 exhorted when evaluating a prophetic utterance. They also had active DIALOGUE WITH THE INFINITE ALMIGHTY GOD 1:1 IN HIS STILL SMALL VOICE way. The two were experienced as quite different in some respects because they were.
And millions of authentic Christians ever since have had similar experiences of dialogue with Almighty Infinite God 1:1 by His Spirit. THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS reading Scripture--even with Holy Spirit unfolding Scripture--there's a difference. Certainly Holy Spirit unfolding Scripture can be part of that 1:1 dialouge. But that Dialogue is not limited to that.
NOT SO! That's an UNBiblical assertion. HOLY SPIRIT IS ON THE EARTH AND INDWELLS ALL AUTHENTIC BELIEVERS. He is keenly interested in DIALOGUE and facilitating Dialogue with Father and Jesus. As JESUS SAID: MY SHEEP !!!!HEAR!!!! MY !!!!VOICE!!!! Are you calling Jesus a liar?
UTTER HOGWASH. GOD SET THE NEW TESTAMENT FORMAT UP AND OUTLINED IT IN I COR 12-14. The fact that many churches do not follow God's insturctions on that score doesn't impress God much at all.
OF COURSE SCRIPTURE doesn't provide exhaustive information about God. Even Scripture itself asserts that the world could not contain all the books describing Christ's doings in his mere 33 earthly years. OF COURSE Scripture was not DESIGNED to speak to every Christian individual about who to marry, what car to buy; which job to take; whether to move to NM or AZ . . . etc. etc.
HOWEVER, GOD ALMIGHTY WANTS to be intimately involved in all those decisions--IN DIALOGUE.
That paragraph has nothing to do per se with what Tommy T was talking about--describing--except that Tommy was saying that playing church doesn't cut it compared to GOD SHOWING UP ON THE SCENE WITH *HIS* ****PRESENCE**** TANGIBLY FILLING THE PLACE. There's no way it can. It's night and day different.
THAT'S 100% HOGWASH. Tommy did NOT PREACH AT ALL from that morning BEFORE the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY SHOWED UP IN POWER AND MIGHT. He was doing all he could manage to feebly run alongside for the ride. He wasn't embarrassed per se because being in God's tangible PRESENCE IS REWARD BEYOND MEASURE. But he wasn't the least bit proud nor were anyone else IN THE ROOM.
YOU HAVE OBSVIOUSLY NOT been in such a meeting. Had you been, you would have KNOWN that PRIDE IN THE OVERT ABJECT OVERWHELMING !!!!PRESENCE!!!! OF GOD GETS OBLITERATED. No one with pride can even stand at all or likely cannot even get inside the doors. One of the first things you find yourself repulsed by and repenting of and pushing away from you as fully and rapidly as possible is pride. You struck out 100% on that allegation. Just absolutely does not at all fit the situation.
Again, Tommy did NOT HAVE A SINGLE THING TO DO with the building being packed. GOD DREW THEM IN SUPERNATURALLY BY HIS SPIRIT. Did you not read of folks driving by and being drawn in without knowing why? I realize your construction on reality cannot allow for that reality but it was REALITY, TRUTH AND VERY BIBLICAL TRUTH, AT THAT.
YES AND NO.
GOD SAYS, WHOSOEVER WILL MAY COME . . . God wants a dialogue face to face with every one of us. However, there is no formula. About the time folks think they have a formula figured out, God will abandon it. He's too big for fomulas.
I don't know why God chooses some over others who've waited on God seemingly longer and more desperately. I do know that desperate hunger out of an earnest broken and contrite heart before God moves His heart and facilitates such experiences. And I believe that we will live to see the day when most authentic Christians will walk in such a Dialogue with God to greater or lesser degree.
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Evidently you didn't read the whole excerpt. That's the process Tommy described going on endlessly for hours, days. GOD DREW HUNDREDS, IF NOT THOUSANDS INTO JUST THAT SORT OF FACE TO FACE DIALOGUE. And, of course, they didn't want to leave HIS PRESENCE. I know that that's like in lesser but still quite significant measure.
Everyone was humbled to the max--doing extensive "floor time" on their faces before God soaking in His PRESENCE.
NOT AT ALL. Your paradigm is what's filled with errors and misconceptions. I suggest you trash it and ask God to help you build a better one that allows God to be more like God in your life ACCORDING TO HIS PARADIGM, HIS PRESCRIPTION, HIS SENSIBILITIES, HIS PRIORITIES, HIS CREATIVITY, HIS POWER.
Wow. THAT’s a service! I pray our church will have that same hunger and that God will visit our little country church like He did the one in Houston. Hallelujah.
Everyone has their own opinion, that’s why it’s important to read something for yourself. We don’t all get the same thing out of a book or movie either.
I think God is trying to get rid of ritual and hierarchy and drawing us into a close relationship with Him and Him ONLY.
Quix, thanks for this thoughtful post.
For those who have ears to hear, go to Sklar’s link for his latest dated June 29, 2009.
Thank you for the book recommendations. I will look at them and consider reading them.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
MAY IT SO BE, LORD!
It’s happend on a much smaller degree scale but quite tangibly at my current church.
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