Posted on 07/18/2009 9:27:36 PM PDT by bronxville
Prior thread link did not copy well, get your education HERE:
367 The earliest extant list of the books of the NT, in exactly the number and order in which we presently have them, is written by Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in his Festal letter # 39 of 367 A.D..
382 Council of Rome (whereby Pope Damasus started the ball rolling for the defining of a universal canon for all city-churches). Listed the New Testament books in their present number and order.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2286074/posts
Catholics and the hundreds of Protestant and Episcopalian pastors and scholars who have converted to Catholicism including a former Rabbi of Rome, all consulted the original texts. One of them, a towering theological author- Cardinal Henry Newman is on a path to sainthood! Enuf said.
I do not disagree with your sentiment, at all.
However, I am a “counter puncher” on the religion threads.
I only speak up in defense of the Catholic Church, when I see the Church being unfairly attacked.
Also, as far as the Old Testament issue, I did address that on a previous post on this thread.
No Jewish Temple would ever call the words of Moses part of the “Old Testament” or part of the “Bible” -—
The Bible was created by the Church and inspired by God, of course, when the Church decided to combine the accepted Jewish works with the official New Testament works.
The Catholic Church was the editor and publisher of the FIRST Bible.
No Bible that exists today can escape the fact that the Catholic Church made that Bible possible.
Even those Bibles translated from the Orthodox Greek can not do so -— As the Orthodox Greek was translated under and written under the authority of Rome.
I do not see anyone on this thread "attacking the Catholic Church", all I see are Catholics criticizing others.
Gentlemen, have a good evening, we have other battles to fight that do not divide us.
Unless you are completely literate in 1st century Aramaic, Mishnaic Hebrew, and Koine Greek, and have read the multiple versions available as well as those texts that were considered and rejected by the Council of Nicene you are relying on the works and judgment of the Catholic Church as to what the Bible says and means.
The topic of the thread, itself, challenged the leadership role of the Pope.
Anyway, as I said, I do not disagree with your wish that we find things to work on, together, as what binds us is far more important than what divides us.
So I suppose the Roman Catholic Church dispensed the scriptures to Josiah, Ezra and Daniel?
The Hebrew Bible existed long before the "Roman Catholic Church." And the New Testament additions (gospels, acts, epistles and the book of the Revelation) were written a couple hundred years prior to the formation of the Roman Catholic Church. To claim that the RCC gave the bible is a supremely arrogant assertion.
“Gentlemen, show a little respect. I am a Baptist and don’t go around beating you up over your beliefs.”
FYI: Your response to - “There would be no Bible with out the Catholic Church.” - is a prime case of moral relatism.
You never seem to fit in with any conservatives.
“I do not see anyone on this thread “attacking the Catholic Church”, all I see are Catholics criticizing others.”
All I can do is laugh! :)
You are being silly.
The Old Testament is a component part of the Bible.
Prior to the first Bible, authorized by the Catholic Church, there was no work or volume or book called the Old Testament.
Yes, the component part, the Old Testament, existed in the form of the Jewish Torah.
However, the Bible did not exist until the Catholic Church, inspired by God, created the Bible, with the Old Testament as a component part of the Bible.
“The topic of the thread, itself, challenged the leadership role of the Pope”
Let’s ignore the elephant in the room.
Just give me the tried and proven R.C. magisterium.
Remember, Sola Scriptura isn't found in the bible!
“The Catholic Church had NO PROBLEM with the Orthodox Greek text, as that text was IDENTICAL to the translated Latin text, in meaning.” [excerpt]Whatever.
“Now, “original text” is a bad phrase for me to use ——Unless you have received a direct revelation from God, it would be more objective of you to say that I have faith that no original texts exist.
BECAUSE NO ORIGINAL TEXTS EXIST!” [excerpt]
“Every single shred of existing parchment or manuscript was, at one time, produced by a CATHOLIC Monk or a Catholic Priest.” [excerpt]If you are saying that Catholic monks at one time or another made copies of all existing biblical texts, you are probably right.
“Even in the case of the Orthodox, all of the manuscripts and parchments in their possession only survived the ages due to the hard work of Catholic (UNIVERSAL) Monks and Priests.” [excerpt]Those are some nice bragging rights you've got there, sonny!
“The Old Testament was not a BIBLE until the Catholic Church, in union with the Orthodox, combined the Old Testament, including ALL OF THE BOOKS in the Temple at the time of Jesus, with the Books that the ONLY Christian faith at the time, the UNIVERAL Catholic Church, Canonized as the official Bible.” [excerpt]Before the Catholics existed, the Jews canonized the Tanakh.
“I suggest you educate yourself … on the history of the Catholic Church and the History of the Bible, prior to exposing your ignorance again.” [excerpt]I would like to recommend the same for yourself in regard to the history of the Masoretic text's. (sans any references to exposing the ignorance of my fellow posters, of course)
“And, for the record, the first person in HISTORY to ever refer to the current books of the New Testament, in their current form were Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, and Pope Damasus …” [excerpt]So the guy liked to brag.
“And this attitude is a slippery slope that is leading England into the dark pit of atheism and moral relativism.”
A typical case of moral relatism by Texas Fossil - see above. My truth vs your truth. If you attempt to correct “my truth” you’re attacking my belief system.
It wasn't called the "Old Testament" ... i didn't say it was. It was called the Torah, Nebhim and Ketubhim. And it was considered scripture, inspired by God. And it was believed to be such prior to the existence of the Roman Catholic Church. The RCC didn't invent the scriptures, the RCC recognized the scriptures. God is the one who gave them.
“Catholics and the hundreds of Protestant and Episcopalian pastors and scholars who have converted to Catholicism including a former Rabbi of Rome, all consulted the original texts. One of them, a towering theological author- Cardinal Henry Newman is on a path to sainthood! Enuf said.”Well, if consulting the original texts turns people to Catholicism, I wish more people would.
Well you and Peggy Noonan have fun together in obscurity.
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