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Confession to God Alone? Scripture Alone?
BlackCordelias ^ | July 24, 2009 | BFHU

Posted on 07/25/2009 3:51:54 PM PDT by NYer

A discussion from a comment on the post Bare Minimum for Salvation

Lena: I just want to say that Jesus did in fact die for the sins of mankind. No matter what “works” you do it is not enough to get you into the kingdom.

BFHU: AMEN!

Lena: Thankfully though, there is hope and you can have that hope. God offers His grace as a gift for the taking, should you so choose to accept it. How do you accept this gift? You have to BELIEVE that Jesus died for you—and yes—He paid the WHOLE price!

BFHU: Protestants do not believe in the necessity of reparation for their sins. Therefore, they believe that every sinner, no matter how evil their past life will be saved and rewarded in Heaven exactly the same as a person who lived their whole life loving God and trying to please Him. The Catholic Church believes that the Death and Resurrection of Christ is all that is needed for every single human being to be saved, and make it to Heaven, if they will to be saved. Jesus opened the gates to Heaven which no mere human being is or ever was capable of doing. But, in justice, the goodness or the evilness of our lives WILL have consequences and these will be administered to us by the Justice and the Mercy of God. So it is worthwhile to do our best to live a holy life. So, we have nothing to fear but must commend ourselves into the loving hands of God. No matter how evil our life might be however, we can be saved by throwing ourselves upon the mercy of God, even with our last breath.

Lena: We have been bought with the blood of Jesus. How can you begin to believe? You can have faith by reading the Holy Bible—word for word (Romans 10:17).

BFHU: AMEN!

Lena: The Holy Word of God is ALL YOU NEED to know of His truth and of His gift of grace.

BFHU: The Sacred Scriptures are very precious indeed and full of Truth for Salvation. Protestants believe that all they need and should trust is what can be found in Sacred Scripture. They reject any religious teaching they cannot see in scripture. This is a very appealing doctrine because, if it is true ,then I have all I need right in black and white in my Bible. But, there is a problem that even Martin Luther, the founder of the Protestant sects found out about very early in the history of Protestantism. That problem is:

The words of scripture are not self interpreting.

If they were, everyone who ever read them would all come to exactly the same conclusion as to their meaning. However, after 500 years of Protestants believing that every individual is able, with the help of the Holy Spirit, to read Scripture and come to all truth, the fact is, there is NO UNITY. There are over 40,000 different Protestant denominations. And every single one of them proclaim their church to be led by the Holy Spirit. But, since God is not a God of confusion something is wrong.

1 Corinthians 14:33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace

Either the Holy Spirit has been falling down on the job or the Protestant idea that each person can read the Bible and accurately interpret it is flawed.

Lena: If you choose to decide on accepting His gift of salvation, then you REPENT your sins to Him and to Him ONLY. It is, after all, a private matter that you take up with God. Its no body’s business what your sins are—NOBODY. God can hear you and He knows your heart—so if you are not sincere—He will know it (Acts 1:24).

BFHU: We of course believe that we must repent and turn away from sin in order to accept the gift of salvation as you explain. And there is no fooling God with insincerity. But we would have to disagree about confessing our sins to no one but God because i”t is a private matter.” This clearly contradicts sacred scripture.

James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another.

In the early church confession was made before the priest and the whole assembly. You really had to humble yourself. But, this was changed to confession privately to the priest to graciously accommodate those weaker souls with the graces of confession, who could not bring themselves to confess before the whole church. The priest, after all, was the one ordained by Jesus to hear confessions with the power to bind and loose in John 20.

John 20: 21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Since it is impossible for a man, even though a priest of God Most High, to forgive or not forgive sin unless he actually hears the confession of sin the Catholic Church sees in this verse of Sacred Scripture the institution of the sacrament of confession.

Lena: And if anybody tells you that God cannot hear you, are themselves going against God—woe to them!. God can hear the prayer of one who wants to repent because it is HIS WILL that you ask for forgiveness (1 John 1:8-9).

BFHU: Amen!

Lena: This is about you and Him—so you need only to pray to HIM and no one else.

BFHU: This is true. We are not obligated to pray to the Saints to ask for their intercession.

Lena: Then go to a “bible following” church which has no doctrines other than following the Word of God and ONLY the Word of God.

BFHU: I know that Lena truly believes what she just said but is unaware of all that every Protestant church actually adopted from the Catholic Church with no questions asked. The table of contents for the New Testament was decided by the Catholic Church. The Doctrine of the Incarnation and the Doctrine of the Trinity was hammered out over centuries by the Catholic Church. The date to celebrate the “Sabbath “, Christmas, and Easter was decided by the Catholic Church.

Lena: Then out of obedience, get BAPTIZED. In baptism you are buried with Christ—when you come out of the water you are rising to a new life (Romans 6:4). You live for Him. The best way to thank Jesus for what He has done is to “serve” Him. And how does one serve our Lord? By doing “works” but this time, it will be under HIS grace through faith and in love with a willingness behind it. There is hope in Jesus.

BFHU: Amen!

Lena: The doctrines and Precepts of the Catholic Church are the doctrines of man. Thankfully, God did not write those doctrines.

BFHU: Well, we of course, believe that our Doctrines and Precepts were infallibly imparted by God through men, exactly as the sacred writing of Holy Scripture were the physical work of man by the infallible power of God. So, if God could write scripture using the hands of men He could write Doctrine and Precepts, Dogma and encyclicals all by the hands of mere men.

Lena: The doctrines of man will change as people and cultures change.

BFHU: This is absolutely true. The English Protestant Church in America (Anglican/Episcopalian) now ordains active homosexuals to their office of Bishop. Many Protestant denominations now ordain women under the pressure of our western culture and some even advocate and authorize homosexual “marriage”. Until the turn of the last century all Christians both Protestant and Catholic denounced contraception as evil. But, the same denomination that ordained a homosexual bishop, was the first to renounce this belief and give the A-OK to the use of contraception. As far as I know every single other Protestant denomination approves of artificial contraception.

It is only the Catholic Church that has not changed her doctrines to suit the prevailing winds of culture for 2000 years. Protestant churches do change. The reason they don’t think they do is because when their church starts going down the road of accommodating the culture and compromising Truth, a remnant will leave the decadent church and start a new one. But, because there is no final authority that speaks for God it is just a matter of time before the new and faithful church will be corrupted by Our Enemy. But Jesus promised that the Gates of Hell would not overcome His Church-The Catholic Church.

Lena: God however, is the same today as He was yesterday, and He will be the same tomorrow. Thats why you can count on HIS WORD—IT NEVER CHANGES.

BFHU: Amen! Thank you .


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; confession; interpretation; scripture

1 posted on 07/25/2009 3:51:54 PM PDT by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 07/25/2009 3:52:28 PM PDT by NYer ("One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

Amen.


3 posted on 07/25/2009 4:28:21 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: NYer

“The priest, after all, was the one ordained by Jesus to hear confessions with the power to bind and loose in John 20.”

I’m sorry, in John chapter 20 these words are not spoken to Roman Catholic priests, but to the assembled disciples, after Jesus breathed on them and imparted the gift of the Holy Spirit to them. I can see a basis for public confession of sins, and receiving forgiveness from the congregation by appealing to this text, but to imply that some member of the church has a special office given to them by Jesus to hear confessions and offer forgiveness would imply that only those individuals possess the Holy Spirit.

Priesthood is not a special office given to a few in the church, but the privilege and responsibility of every member. This is demostrated in 2 Peter 5:9, which demonstrates fulfillment of the prophecy made in Exodus 19:5-6. As the Holy Spirit dwells in all the faithful, we are all priests serving under the High Priest, Jesus, and we have no need of any other mediator between the Father and ourselves.


4 posted on 07/25/2009 4:46:57 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman

Amen, Boogieman.


5 posted on 07/25/2009 7:15:50 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: NYer

It is only the Catholic Church that has not changed her doctrines to suit the prevailing winds of culture for 2000 years.

Vatican II?


6 posted on 07/25/2009 8:28:27 PM PDT by asformeandformyhouse (I've been listening to a lot of rap music lately. Mostly at red lights and stop signs.)
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To: NYer
Confession to God Alone? Scripture Alone?

Pope: There's an Answer to Empty Confessionals [Catholic Caucus]
Pope alarmed by decline in confessions
Part 2 of 10: Sacrament of Penance, Church’s symbols help explain penance [Catholic Caucus]
Part 1 of 10: Sacrament of Penance, Jesus placed great value on forgiveness [Catholic Caucus]
Confession Questions From the Pew [Catholic Caucus] Introduction to 10 Part Series

Part 1 of 10: Sacrament of Penance, Jesus placed great value on forgiveness [Catholic Caucus]
Beginning Catholic: The Sacrament of Reconciliation: Rising Again to New Life [Ecumenical]
Why do I have to confess my sins to a priest?
Why do Catholics have to confess their sins to a priest instead of praying straight to God? [Ecu]

When did confession to a priest start? [Ecumenical]
Confession, Confession Everywhere (Cardinal Says Youth Day Is Reviving the Sacrament)
In One Church, Confession Makes a Comeback (Catholic Caucus)
Priests should encourage recovery of Sacrament of Reconciliation
A Gift That is Always in Season (Sacrament of Penance) Catholic Caucus

[Sacrament of]Confession
Make a Good Confession
Those in Mortal Sin Can't Go to Communion, Says Pope
Holy Week Recovers Celebration of Penance (at St. Peter's Basilica) - photos!
Reasons for Confession [Sacrament of Reconciliation]

Lesson 19: Confession (Part 1) BY FATHER ALTIER
Lesson 20: Confession (Part 2) BY FATHER ROBERT ALTIER
Serious about God? Then get serious about confession
St. Ephraim the Syrian: On Repentance
What happened to confession – Changing mores reflective of use
Repentance and Confession - Introduction [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]

The Spiritual and Psychological Value of Frequent Confession
Pick a sin, any sin (Confession gone awry)
The Early Church Fathers on Confession / Reconciliation - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Catholics called from the idiot box to confession
Benedict XVI Extols Sacrament of Penance - Says Priests Need to Make It a Priority

Confession’s Comeback
Priests say more Catholics returning to confession
Pope Hears Confessions of Youth
MESSAGE FOR ALL CATHOLICS (in preparation for Divine Mercy Sunday - April 15)
Salvation: Just click and confess

CONFESSION AND CONFUSION
Get Thee To A Confessional! (beautiful insight for those who dread going to Confession)
Emerging Trends: The Return to the Confessional
Confessing to 'sins' is booming in America (Evangelicals and Protestants take up practice)
What You [Catholics] Need to Know: Penance (Reconciliation, Confession) [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]

A Comeback for Confession
MORTAL SIN and HOLY CONFESSION - The Antidote of Death
Thinking Inside the Box: An Attitude for Confession
Confessional Advice
The Epidemic and the Cure [The Sin of the World and the Sacrament of Reconciliation] (Confession)

7 posted on 07/25/2009 8:47:53 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: Boogieman; Marysecretary
Priesthood is not a special office given to a few in the church, but the privilege and responsibility of every member.

The Catholic belief in and great emphasis upon the priesthood was one of the "Romish" beliefs I thought to be refuted most easily in Sacred Scripture when I was Protestant. This was an extremely important doctrine, because I surmised that multiple other Catholic doctrines went up in smoke with the demise of the Catholic understanding of the priesthood. Confession, the Mass as sacrifice, "Last Rites," and more crumbled like a house of cards without the priesthood as a foundation.

The biblical texts seemed so clear to me. For example, Hebrews 7:22–25 says:

"This makes Jesus the surety of a better covenant. The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them" (emphasis added).

Doesn’t this text eliminate the possibility of there being priests who are "many in number" as we see in Catholicism? Moreover, this text tells us that Christ is our intercessor before the Father. Coupled with 1 Timothy 2:5, which says, "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," I could not see how anyone could say there could be priests in the New Covenant. A priest, by definition, is a mediator between God and men. As I interpreted the above texts, Christ would be our one, unique priest and intercessor, excluding the possibility of a ministerial priesthood. (Intercessor and mediator are synonymous in the New Testament.)

The Catholic Response
First, we need to dispel the notion that there cannot be "many priests" in the New Covenant. First Peter 2:5–9 tells us, "Like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. . . . But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people." The fact that all baptized Christians are referred to as priests in the New Testament necessarily means it is not a contradiction to say that Christ is our unique priest/mediator/intercessor while affirming the biblical truth that Christians can act as priests/mediators/intercessors as well.

The key is to understand properly the nature of the body of Christ. Christians do not usurp or diminish the unique priesthood of Christ when they are referred to as priests; they participate in that unique priesthood. So intimate is the union of the baptized with Christ that Paul describes this mystical union as a body (cf. 1 Cor. 12:12–27; Rom. 12:5) with Christ as its head (cf. Eph. 1:22–23). What can be attributed to a hand in the body does not somehow take away from the head. The fact that Christians are priests does not usurp the priesthood of Christ because it is Christ who empowers them to participate in his own priesthood. Indeed, it is Christ (and his priesthood) living in them (cf. Gal. 2:20).

Further, it is obvious that Hebrews 7:22–25 and 1 Timothy 2:5 are not saying that Christians cannot act as mediators or intercessors in any sense. Paul says, "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions" (1 Tim. 2:1–2). This text urges Christians to act as mediators or intercessors. When we understand that Christians can intercede only because they are in the one true mediator/intercessor and that they act as members of his body, the difficulty goes away. Simple enough.

The Priest-Elder
But even if a Protestant accepts the notion of Christians being priests and accepts the Catholic interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:5 and Hebrew 7:22–25 in this respect, this in no way shows that there is a distinct ordained priesthood apart from the universal priesthood of the faithful. First Peter 2 indicated that all Christians are priests—but not ministerial priests. Here was my biggest problem with the Catholic notion of a ministerial priesthood. The ordained ministers of the New Covenant are called apostles (cf. Eph. 4:11), elders (Jas. 5:14), bishops (1 Tim. 3:1), and deacons (1 Tim. 3:8ff). They are not referred to directly with the typical Greek word for "priest," which is hiereus.

But the English word priest is derived from the Greek word presbuteros, or "elder." It does not originate from hiereus. The German word priester also has its origin from the Greek word for "elder." So there is etymological reason to say that the elder in the Christian Church was considered to be a priest. In fact, the Douay-Rheims Bible translates presbuteros as "priest," which can be a valid translation (see Jas. 5:14, DRV).

Having said that, I must say that for me, it was not the word elder or priest that helped me to see the truth of the New Covenant priesthood; it was the function of the apostle, bishop, and elder, which is clearly revealed to be of a priestly nature. (A deacon is ordained, but he is not a ministerial priest.)

There were basically four biblical steps I took on the road to discovering the New Covenant priesthood. First, I saw that although the standard noun for priest—hiereus—is not used for New Testament ministers, the verb form of hiereus is. And it is found when Paul refers specifically to his ministry as an apostle. He refers to his ministry as a "priestly service":

"Because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service [Greek: hierourgounta] of the gospel of God" (Rom. 15:15–16).

Second, I saw that 1 Peter 2:5–9 is a reference to Exodus 19:6: "and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." This text indicates a universal priesthood in the Old Covenant. Yet in that same chapter, verse 22, we read: "And also let the priests who come near to the Lord consecrate themselves." I clearly saw that there was a universal priesthood in existence in the Old Covenant, but this did not exclude the possibility of a distinct ministerial priesthood as well. Could it be the same in the New Covenant? I discovered that it was.

Third, as far as the term priest is concerned, it began to seem plausible to me that the Christians of the first century would avoid using it in naming the ministerial offices of the Church, because it was the same term being used by the more numerous Jewish and even pagan priests (cf. Luke 1:8–9; Acts 14:13). Christians used language to distinguish their priests from the Jewish and pagan priests of their day.

But what was most important for me was the fourth step in the process. I saw in Scripture that New Covenant ministers functioned as priests. As the old saying goes: "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. . . ."

A Common Objection
This fourth step in my biblical journey began with an objection that I had that is quite commonly raised by our Protestant brothers concerning the priesthood: "Why do I have to go to some man to have my sins forgiven when the Bible says I can go straight to God through Christ? Isn’t this the whole reason that Jesus came and died on the cross?"

Well, it’s not the whole reason. But this objection is based in partial truth and partial misunderstanding. The Protestant is correct in one respect. We can and ought to go directly to God through Jesus Christ in repentance, prayer, and offering our spiritual sacrifices in union with him. But I discovered that this is not an either/or proposition. We do not go either to God or to his representatives on this earth when we have needs. The Catholic Church and the Bible say we do both. For example, Romans 12:1–2 says, "I appeal to you, therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship."

Here we see Paul encouraging all Christians to exercise their universal, "royal priesthood" before God and offer spiritual sacrifices directly to him. We Catholics agree that all Christians can and should do just that. But, analogous to what we saw in the Old Testament, we also see a special group of men called by Christ to a ministerial priesthood in the New Testament. In fact, each of the three ministers I mentioned before—apostles, elders, and bishops—function as priests in the New Testament.

Apostles, Elders, and Bishops
In Scripture, we see our Lord definitively choosing and sending apostles to act as mediators between God and men. This, again, is the very definition of a priest. For example, after the Resurrection, Jesus appears to the apostles in the upper room and says to them:

"‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23).

Jesus gave the power to forgive and retain sins to the apostles. This is a priestly ministry (cf. Lev. 19:21–22). In 2 Corinthians 2:10, Paul says, "If I have pardoned anything for your sakes I have done it in the person of Christ" (DRV).

Paul evidently heard confessions in Corinth, carrying out this priestly commission of the apostle. He goes on to say that the apostle has been given the ministry of reconciliation: "So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God" (2 Cor. 5:20).

That Paul uses the word we in describing this priestly ministry may indicate that he is including the elders and bishops he was traveling with and/or ministering with as priests as well, but the point remains the same: Paul describes his ministry as a priestly one.

Jesus not only gave the authority to forgive sins to the apostles, but he gave them divine, infallible authority to proclaim the gospel as well. "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Luke 10:16). This too is a priestly function. The apostles act in the place of God as mediators between God and men. In 2 Corinthians 2:17, Paul describes this priestly work as such: "For we are not as many, adulterating the word of God; but with sincerity, as from God, before God, in Christ we speak" (DRV).

Bishops (episkopoi) are successors of the apostles according to Scripture. When the apostles were choosing a successor for Judas, the text describes the office of apostle as a bishopric: "and [Judas’] bishopric (episkope) let another man take" (Acts 1:20, DRV). Bishops, it can be inferred, are called to carry on the apostolic ministry and the apostles’ priestly function. The apostolic office in succession is called a bishopric.

Presbyters are seen as priests as well. James 5:14–15 puts it quite plainly:

"Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders (presbyteroi) of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven."

Notice that Scripture does not say we should go to anyone because we are all priests as Christians. It singles out the presbyters and clearly depicts them as having the power and authority to act as mediators in the forgiveness of sins and healing.

Two Definitive Texts
In the end, there were two texts of Scripture that I could not escape. I believe that attempting to find Protestant explanations for these texts only served to solidify the Catholic understanding of confession and the priesthood in my mind. Those two texts are John 20:21–23 and Matthew 16:18–19.

When it came to John 20:21–23, cited above, some of the Protestant scholars I read attempted to evade the obvious by claiming that the perfect tense verbs "are forgiven" and "are retained" indicate that when Jesus said, "Whosoever sins you forgive are forgiven," he actually meant whoever’s sins you forgive have already been forgiven, not through the ministry of the apostle but by God apart from the apostle. This is an example of reading into a text something that is simply not there.

The text is really quite plain. It tells us when the sins are forgiven: They are forgiven when the apostles forgive them. The Catholic Church is not saying that the apostles accomplish this by some magical powers or by their own power. Jesus "breathed on them" and gave them the power of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins. But the fact is that the apostles are the instruments of God’s forgiveness, and there can be no plainer example of a priestly function than this—except perhaps for the final text we will examine: Matthew 16:18–19.

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

All Catholics are well acquainted with this text and its implications for papal infallibility. Here Jesus promises Peter the power to proclaim the gospel on earth with the infallible authority of heaven to back him up. But less well known is that this text also refers to the forgiveness of sins (cf. CCC 553). In both cases, as stated above, we are talking about priestly functions; that is, Peter and his successors are promised the power to be mediators of both the message of God’s truth and the healing communicated through God’s forgiveness.

The text itself is most clear because it uses a very rare Greek construction that profoundly brings out the sacerdotal nature of the Petrine office.

The very mention of a ministerial priesthood elicits a deluge of thoughts in the minds and hearts of many of our Protestant friends. Take it from one who went from abhorring the very thought of confessing my sins to a priest to one who could not wait to experience the opening of the windows of heaven through the ministry of an ordained Catholic priest! I think I had every negative thought in the book toward the priesthood.

In your next conversation with someone who is now where I was then, remember the old adage: "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck!" If you can help your Protestant friend to see the function of the apostle, bishop, and elder as priestly, it may not be long before he will be looking forward to experiencing the forgiveness of Christ in confession as well.

The author of this text, Tim Staples, is a former Assemblies of God minister.

Source

8 posted on 07/26/2009 4:09:36 AM PDT by NYer ("One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer; All
There are some scriptures which pertain just to the apostles. John, 20:21-23 is not one of them when you add 19-20. It was not given to the Apostles alone but to all disciples which includes us today as Christians. This was never supposed to be limited to a priestly line of Bishops and their successes. It is a command given to all believers so they can receive God's forgiveness. Verse 19 & 20 shows that it was given to the disciples.
 
John 20:19-23 (American Standard Version)
 19 When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
 20 And when he had said this, he showed unto them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord.

 21 Jesus therefore said to them again, Peace be unto you: as the Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit:

 23 whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. 

This has nothing to do with the forgiving of sins we commit against God by an earthly human, be it a priest or any one else. All of those sins have all ready been forgiven by God through the finished work of Christ when we repent and forgive the sins committed against us by other humans.

John 20:21-23 deals with the sins committed by others against us. We have to forgive those people to allow God to forgive our sins against Him. It is not a privilege given to the apostles but a command given to all believers, including the apostles.

 Scripture to explain the concept of binding and loosing..... 

Matthew 18:18-35 (New American Standard Bible)

18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
 19 "Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.

 20 "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

Forgiveness
 21 Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"

 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

 23 "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.

 24 "When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.

 25 "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

 26 "So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'

 27 "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

 28 "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'

 29 "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'

 30 "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

 31 "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.

 32 "Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

 33 'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

 34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

This is the biblical meaning of binding and loosing. You have to forgive to be forgiven. It has nothing to do with priests and confessionals. How arrogant and/or deceived can a man be that he thinks he has the right to forgive sins committed against God for God and the wisdom to determine a just punishment/penitence?

What bothers me is how few, if any, understand this principle and what effect it will have on their salvation.  Unknowing Catholic believers dutifully participate in meaningless confessions for fear they could lose salvation if they don't..

BVB


9 posted on 07/26/2009 10:06:53 AM PDT by Bobsvainbabblings
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To: NYer

Thanks for the interesting perspective, but I’m still not convinced that the Catholic interpretation is correct. First of all, the elders in the New Testament churches seem to have been selected from those who were already respected members of the congregation, not men sent from some central ecclesiastical authority as we see in the Catholic church. Furthermore, when I read I Timothy 3, which is probably the best description of the qualifications for holding offices in the Church, it clearly states that both the bishop and deacon should be men married to one wife, and it also talks about how they should keep their family affairs in order, even mentioning their children. To me, this rules out the possibility of a celibate priesthood that we see in the Catholic church.

Celibate priesthoods were typically a feature of pagan religions, while in the Old Testament, the Jewish custom was for priests and rabbis to be married men. This seems quite sensible to me, since what better way can one demonstrate aptitude to shepherd a large flock (the congregation) than by being a good shepherd to a small flock (your family) first?

I might also point out that the text you posted again claims that the power of forgiving sins was given by Jesus to the apostles, but the verse itself in John 20, says that the disciples were assembled when this commission was given, it does not say the apostles were the only ones present.


10 posted on 07/27/2009 6:22:55 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: NYer

Lots of errors here. Just in this initial paragraph...

“Protestants do not believe in the necessity of reparation for their sins. Therefore, they believe that every sinner, no matter how evil their past life will be saved and rewarded in Heaven exactly the same as a person who lived their whole life loving God and trying to please Him. The Catholic Church believes that the Death and Resurrection of Christ is all that is needed for every single human being to be saved, and make it to Heaven, if they will to be saved. Jesus opened the gates to Heaven which no mere human being is or ever was capable of doing. But, in justice, the goodness or the evilness of our lives WILL have consequences and these will be administered to us by the Justice and the Mercy of God. So it is worthwhile to do our best to live a holy life.”

A) - reparations: “1. the making of amends for wrong or injury done: reparation for an injustice; 2. Usually, reparations. compensation in money, material, labor, etc., payable by a defeated country to another country or to an individual for loss suffered...”

Forgiveness and reparations are antithetical. If I forgive my son’s debt, I don’t make him pay it back. I can’t think of any scriptures saying we need to pay reparations to God. Can you?

B) “...they believe that every sinner, no matter how evil their past life will be saved and rewarded in Heaven exactly the same as a person who lived their whole life loving God...”

Umm...no. Saved? Yes. Rewarded? No. Jesus taught that the workers hired for the last hour would be paid the same as those who worked all day. However, he also taught that there was a greater reward for a good and faithful servant.

C) “But, in justice, the goodness or the evilness of our lives WILL have consequences and these will be administered to us by the Justice and the Mercy of God. So it is worthwhile to do our best to live a holy life.”

Works done for a reward don’t mix well with being born again. Someone who has been born again does works because he is a new creature, not because he wants payment. If my son comes and works for me for payment, I take no pleasure in it. If he comes and helps us with the horse corrals because he is our son, then I delight in him.

If you are trying to live a holy life for reward, then you are stuck in the flesh and trying to manipulate God. Those works are filthy. And in Heaven, our reward is likely to be the delight of our Father, not personal advancement!


11 posted on 07/27/2009 7:03:19 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: NYer
JAMES: "15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed."

BFHU (whoever that is): "In the early church confession was made before the priest and the whole assembly. You really had to humble yourself. But, this was changed to confession privately to the priest to graciously accommodate those weaker souls with the graces of confession, who could not bring themselves to confess before the whole church."

Calvin: "Wonderful, indeed, is the folly or the insincerity of the Papists, who strive to build their whispering confession on this passage. For it would be easy to infer from the words of James, that the priests alone ought to confess. For since a mutual, or to speak more plainly, a reciprocal confession is demanded here, no others are bidden to confess their own sins, but those who in their turn are fit to hear the confession of others..."

Mr Rogers: When Catholics confess their sins to a Priest, does the Priest confess his sins back in return?

12 posted on 07/27/2009 7:12:30 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Boogieman
First of all, the elders in the New Testament churches seem to have been selected from those who were already respected members of the congregation, not men sent from some central ecclesiastical authority as we see in the Catholic church.

This is still true today. Rome does not send anyone; they simply affirm the individual chosen.

Furthermore, when I read I Timothy 3, which is probably the best description of the qualifications for holding offices in the Church, it clearly states that both the bishop and deacon should be men married to one wife, and it also talks about how they should keep their family affairs in order, even mentioning their children.

This verse refers to bishops that were widowers. Paul is instructing that these widowers could not remarry. The verse also refers to those bishops who were currently married. They also could not remarry (in the Catholic Church's Eastern rite, priests are allowed to marry; celibacy is only a disciplinary rule for the clergy of the Roman rite). Therefore, this text has nothing to do with imposing a marriage requirement on becoming a bishop.

Celibate priesthoods were typically a feature of pagan religions, while in the Old Testament, the Jewish custom was for priests and rabbis to be married men.

Jesus was a rabbi. He was not married. Latin Rite priests and many in the Eastern Catholic Churches, model their lives on Jesus. In 1 Cor. 7:27, Paul teaches men that they should not seek marriage. In Paul’s opinion, marriage introduces worldly temptations that can interfere with one’s relationship with God, specifically regarding those who will become full-time ministers in the Church. Agin in 1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38, Paul recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church so that they are able to focus entirely upon God and building up His kingdom. He “who refrains from marriage will do better.”

I might also point out that the text you posted again claims that the power of forgiving sins was given by Jesus to the apostles, but the verse itself in John 20, says that the disciples were assembled when this commission was given, it does not say the apostles were the only ones present.

As soon as Jesus rose from the dead and earned salvation for us, he brought his apostles a new gift. After speaking peace to them, he said, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" (John 20:21). Just as Jesus was sent by the Father to reconcile the world to God, Jesus sent the apostles to continue his mission.

Jesus then breathed on the apostles. This is a verse that is often passed over, but it has extraordinary significance because it is only the second time in all of Scripture where God breathes on anyone. The other instance was at the moment of creation, when God breathed his own life into the nostrils of Adam. This should tell us that something of great importance is taking place. Upon doing this, Jesus said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:22–23).

Notice that Jesus is not simply commissioning the apostles to preach about God’s forgiveness. He is not saying, "Go tell everyone that when God forgives men’s sins, they’re forgiven." In using the second person plural you, Jesus is telling his apostles that by the power of the Holy Spirit he has given them the power to forgive and retain the sins of men. Having the power to forgive and to retain sins implies that the apostle knows what a person’s sins are, which in turn implies oral confession. Otherwise, how is the apostle to know what to retain or forgive?

13 posted on 07/27/2009 10:23:49 AM PDT by NYer ("One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: Boogieman
I’m sorry, in John chapter 20 these words are not spoken to Catholic priests, but to the assembled disciples...

A distinction without a difference.

14 posted on 07/27/2009 10:25:14 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Bobsvainbabblings
How arrogant and/or deceived can a man be that he thinks he has the right to forgive sins committed against God for God and the wisdom to determine a just punishment/penitence?

There is no arrogance or deception in believing what Christ tells us.

15 posted on 07/27/2009 10:26:35 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski
Petronski
  • How arrogant and/or deceived can a man be that he thinks he has the right to forgive sins committed against God for God and the wisdom to determine a just punishment/penitence?

    There is no arrogance or deception in believing what Christ tells us.

Can you please explain to me how or where Christ tells us a man can forgive sins against God for God? 

I contend there is no need for that after Christ's finished work. God has forgiven all sins against Him, past, present and future.

 

16 posted on 07/27/2009 11:16:17 AM PDT by Bobsvainbabblings
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To: Bobsvainbabblings

John 20:19-23


17 posted on 07/27/2009 11:17:29 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: NYer

“Otherwise, how is the apostle to know what to retain or forgive?”

Maybe that is why your interpretation is wrong.God doesn’t make mistakes. It says, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

Sounds like the Holy Spirit is to guide them in their actions, not the confessions of individual believers.

Are there any examples in scripture to tell us how these verses were applied?

Hmmm...

“1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife. 2And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

3For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.” - 1 Corinthians 5

Followed by:

” 5Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you. 6For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, 7so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. 9For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. 10Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, 11so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.” - 2 Corinthians 2

So we see, not individual confessions, but church discipline. This shouldn’t surprise us, for in Matthew 18 we read:

15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

It applies, not to sins of the individual before God, but church discipline. We, as deacons, did this in a Baptist Church when a fellow deacon ran off with a young woman in the choir, leaving his wife and kids.

Also see 1 Timothy 1: “By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, 20among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.”

And note, these actions are taken against an UNREPENTANT sinner. It has nothing to do with confession to a priest. The only question is if it applies to Apostles only, but it is given to disciples who are going out to proclaim the gospel, so I believe it continues to this day.

An alternate view is put forth by the always readable Barnes:

Verse 23. Whose soever sins, &c. See...”Matthew 16:19”... “Matthew 18:18”. It is worthy of remark here that Jesus confers the same power on all the apostles. He gives to no one of them any peculiar authority. If Peter, as the Papists pretend, had been appointed to any peculiar authority, it is wonderful that the Saviour did not here hint at any such pre-eminence. This passage conclusively proves that they were invested with equal power in organizing and governing the church. The authority which he had given Peter to preach the gospel first to the Jews and the Gentiles, does not militate against this. This authority given them was full proof that they were inspired. The meaning of the passage is not that man can forgive sins—that belongs only to God (Isaiah 43:23), but that they should be inspired; that in founding the church, and in declaring the will of God, they should be taught by the Holy Ghost to declare on what terms, to what characters, and to what temper of mind God would extend forgiveness of sins. It was not authority to forgive individuals, but to establish in all the churches the terms and conditions on which men might be pardoned, with a promise that God would confirm all that they taught; that all might have assurance of forgiveness who would comply with those terms; and that those who did not comply should not be forgiven, but that their sins should be retained. This commission is as far as possible from the authority which the Roman Catholic claims of remitting sin and of pronouncing pardon.”


18 posted on 07/27/2009 11:54:06 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Petronski; Bobsvainbabblings

Post 18 for comments...


19 posted on 07/27/2009 11:56:27 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers

Good summary of key points!

Obsessively paraphrased:

The whole point of sacrifices in the OT was reparations, which were understood to be entirely inadequate anyway.
The whole point of crucifixion & resurrection in the NT is that the price was paid, that reparations have been made, once and for all.

Salvation is binary. You is or you ain’t. The thief on the cross was saved no less than anyone else.
Reward is variable. Heavenly distribution of “crowns” varies on life choices.

Obsession with being perfect usually fails to observe that the life of the fallen, even the saved, is filth - even the best we can do isn’t enough to justify oneself. Do the best you can because you are called to do so, but don’t think you’re playing favorites with the Almighty.

And then there’s that whole Purgatory thing, which AFAIK is a karmic washing machine: at what point is “salvation” moot as it seems anyone, and I mean anyone, can get polished into perfection given enough finite time, which is nothing in light of eternity. Is He11 a reality?

BTW: I’m puzzled by the growing number of Protestant-bashing threads on FR lately...


20 posted on 07/27/2009 12:30:54 PM PDT by ctdonath2 (John Galt was exiled.)
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To: Petronski
Petronski, As I posted in my original post 8 about John 20:19-23, Jesus was speaking to all disciples, not just the apostles.

The example of binding and loosing given by Christ in the same post has no mention of man forgiving sins against God, for God. Only that you have to forgive to be forgiven by God when you repent and ask.

Again I respectfully ask; "Would you please supply evidence of where Jesus taught man could forgive sins against God, for God? Thanks, BVB

21 posted on 07/27/2009 12:34:48 PM PDT by Bobsvainbabblings
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To: NYer
NYer, from Boogieman's post and your rebuttal with my highlights;

I might also point out that the text you posted again claims that the power of forgiving sins was given by Jesus to the apostles, but the verse itself in John 20, says that the disciples were assembled when this commission was given, it does not say the apostles were the only ones present.

You answered

As soon as Jesus rose from the dead and earned salvation for us, he brought his apostles a new gift. After speaking peace to them, he said, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" (John 20:21). Just as Jesus was sent by the Father to reconcile the world to God, Jesus sent the apostles to continue his mission.

Jesus then breathed on the apostles. This is a verse that is often passed over, but it has extraordinary significance because it is only the second time in all of Scripture where God breathes on anyone. The other instance was at the moment of creation, when God breathed his own life into the nostrils of Adam. This should tell us that something of great importance is taking place. Upon doing this, Jesus said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:22–23).

Notice that Jesus is not simply commissioning the apostles to preach about God’s forgiveness. He is not saying, "Go tell everyone that when God forgives men’s sins, they’re forgiven." In using the second person plural you, Jesus is telling his apostles that by the power of the Holy Spirit he has given them the power to forgive and retain the sins of men. Having the power to forgive and to retain sins implies that the apostle knows what a person’s sins are, which in turn implies oral confession. Otherwise, how is the apostle to know what to retain or forgive?

You ignore Jn 20: 19-20 which is mentioned in my post 8 and Boogieman's post and your reply. It states that the disciples were gathered. No mention that is was just the apostles.

Every place I highlighted your use of the word apostle in your post, it should read disciples. If you did, it would make your supposition that He brought His apostles a special gift of the Holy Spirit to be unsupported. The same with binding and loosing and forgiving sins.

The Holy Spirit, the power to bind and loose and to forgive sin was given to all disciples in that setting, including us.  BVB

22 posted on 07/27/2009 2:48:14 PM PDT by Bobsvainbabblings
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To: Bobsvainbabblings
You ignore Jn 20: 19-20 which is mentioned in my post 8 and Boogieman's post and your reply. It states that the disciples were gathered. No mention that is was just the apostles.

If there are a million people in a room and I give you a gift, have the others also received the gift? John 20 initiates our understanding of what transpired. A more thorough reading of scripture expands this understanding. St. Paul said to his disciple Timothy: "I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands" (2 Tim 1:6), and "If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task" (1 Tim 3:1). To Titus he said: "This is why I left you in Crete, that you amend what was defective, and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you" (Titus 1:5).

The Holy Spirit, the power to bind and loose and to forgive sin was given to all disciples in that setting, including us.

Christ told the apostles to follow his example: "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" (John 20:21). Just as the apostles were to carry Christ’s message to the whole world, so they were to carry his forgiveness: "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 18:18).

The ministerial priesthood differs in essence from the common priesthood of the faithful because it confers a sacred power for the service of the faithful. The ordained ministers exercise their service for the People of God by teaching (munus docendi), divine worship (munus liturgicum) and pastoral governance (munus regendi). The power to forgive sins implies the obligation of going to confession because as sins are usually committed secretly, the priest could never know what sins to forgive and what not to forgive, unless the sins committed were made known to him by the persons guilty of them.

23 posted on 07/27/2009 3:39:37 PM PDT by NYer ("One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer
You ignore Jn 20: 19-20 which is mentioned in my post 8 and Boogieman's post and your reply. It states that the disciples were gathered. No mention that is was just the apostles.

If there are a million people in a room and I give you a gift, have the others also received the gift? John 20 initiates our understanding of what transpired. A more thorough reading of scripture expands this understanding. St. Paul said to his disciple Timothy: "I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands" (2 Tim 1:6), and "If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task" (1 Tim 3:1). To Titus he said: "This is why I left you in Crete, that you amend what was defective, and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you" (Titus 1:5).

You asked; "If there are a million people in a room and I give you a gift, have the others also received the gift?

No, you only gave it to me. This gift was for all who were in the room. The disciples. I am a disciple so the gift is for me as well. It is yours as well if you accept it.

The Holy Spirit, the power to bind and loose and to forgive sin was given to all disciples in that setting, including us.

Christ told the apostles to follow his example: "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" (John 20:21). Just as the apostles were to carry Christ’s message to the whole world, so they were to carry his forgiveness: "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 18:18).

Once again you are saying that this was just for the apostles. No where does it state that. It says the room was filled with disciples. All in the room received what Christ gave just like when the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost. Everyone in the room was filled with the Spirit. Not just the apostles who were there.

The ministerial priesthood differs in essence from the common priesthood of the faithful because it confers a sacred power for the service of the faithful. The ordained ministers exercise their service for the People of God by teaching (munus docendi), divine worship (munus liturgicum) and pastoral governance (munus regendi). The power to forgive sins implies the obligation of going to confession because as sins are usually committed secretly, the priest could never know what sins to forgive and what not to forgive, unless the sins committed were made known to him by the persons guilty of them.

You state; "The power to forgive sins implies the obligation of going to confession because as sins are usually committed secretly, the priest could never know what sins to forgive and what not to forgive, unless the sins committed were made known to him by the persons guilty of them."

That statement has no meaning. Did you read what I posted to you earlier about binding and loosing and the forgiveness of sins. There is no bases for men to forgive other man's sins against God. Only God can forgive sins committed against Him. Thankfully He did so through His Son's finished work.

The rest of your statement shows how ridiculous the concept of the confessional is. The Church claims that it has this responsibility because the Holy Spirit guides her. If that was the case, you would not have to confess, the Holy Spirit would enlighten the priests as it did the apostles and the other Spirit filled individuals in the early church.

My favorite evidence of that is the rite of exorcism. Multiple psychologist have to determine whether a person is possessed before an exorcism can be approved.

Maybe that is why so many possessed priests were allowed to do their damage. I am not saying that to condemn the church as much as how to not let it happen again. To many priest were sent to doctors instead of exorcists or jail. You would have to be possessed to do what some of them did.

As I asked another poster; "Please show me where God explicitly says man can forgive sins against Him, For Him."

BVB

 


24 posted on 07/27/2009 5:54:10 PM PDT by Bobsvainbabblings
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To: Mr Rogers
Mr Rogers, Sorry I didn't answer sooner. I think we are on the same page for the most part.

I contend that there is no provision or need for a man to forgive sins committed against God for God and determine a punishment/penitence for those sins. Only God can do that. Thankfully He has through the finished work of His Son!

I can and must forgive sins committed against me by others before God can forgive me of my repented sins.

I cannot forgive a sin perpetrated against you or another. You or the other individual must do that for your/their forgiveness from God.

The Holy Spirit will guide us in those pursuits if we ask.....BVB

25 posted on 07/27/2009 6:22:19 PM PDT by Bobsvainbabblings
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To: Bobsvainbabblings
Again I respectfully ask; "Would you please supply evidence of where Jesus taught man could forgive sins against God, for God? Thanks, BVB

John 20:19-23

26 posted on 07/27/2009 10:52:46 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Mr Rogers

You’re still wrong, as is the post from which you cut and pasted that word salad.


27 posted on 07/27/2009 10:58:56 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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