Posted on 07/28/2009 11:59:42 PM PDT by GonzoII
Every Sunday, millions of Christians around the world recite the Creed, professing their belief in the “communion of saints.” Few realize the importance of this phrase, which is sandwiched between other deep mysteries of the faith.
The Catholic understanding is denounced by many Protestants as “unbiblical.” It’s a bitter irony that the very doctrine of Christian unity has itself become a barrier to unity. The controversy revolves around the question, “Is it biblical to ask the saints in heaven to pray (intercede) for us?”
Catholics say yes. Since Christians are united with each other through Christ, and are commanded to love and pray for one another, Christians on earth can ask Christians in heaven for their prayers.
Protestants say no. They say that praying to saints undermines Christ’s unique mediatorship, pointing to 1 Timothy 2:5: “There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.”
They think asking the saints to intercede for us is in direct conflict with this verse. The Anglican Reformers, under the leadership of Thomas Cranmer, the Archbishop of Canterbury, said, “The Romish doctrine concerning . . . [the] invocation of saints is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but is, rather, repugnant to the Word of God” (39 Articles of Religion, article 22).
Vatican II gave the Catholic position . . . (click to continue reading)
(Excerpt) Read more at patrickmadrid.blogspot.com ...
Jesus HIMSELF spoke with "the dead":
Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:3-4; Luke 9:30-31
No one would call Jesus and idol worshiper.
You wrote:
“The core issues are:- there is nothing in Scripture suggesting the departed intercede for us nor have influence over the world”
Actually there is. Look at Rev. 5:8 for instance.
“- the first commandment forbids worshiping any but God, and one should refrain from minimizing what constitutes “worship” in that context”
We don’t worship the saints. We venerate them.
“- someone here is grossly deficient in their studies of Monty Python.”
Having seen all the episodes of Monty Python more times than I can count when I was young, it must be you.
Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:3-4; Luke 9:30-31
"No one would call Jesus and idol worshiper."
Lets take Mark 9:3-4 and see what it says about when Jesus spoke with the dead."
| Mark 9:3-4 3and His garments became radiant and exceedingly white, as no launderer on earth can whiten them. 4Elijah appeared to them along with Moses; and they were talking with Jesus. |
Is this what happens when you speak with the dead?
Do your garments glow and become exceedingly white as Jesus' garments did?
Do the dead appear to you?
If not, you need to supply other evidence of why we should be able to speak to the dead. BVB
No. And it doesn't need to.
Our God is the God of the living.
These verses prove that the just are alive.
No. And it doesn't need to.
Our God is the God of the living.
These verses prove that the just are alive.
It may prove that the just are alive but it also shows that the Lord Jesus had to be transformed before He could talk with them.
The two untransformed disciples with Him did not talk. It says they were afraid..
It said He talked with them. It did not say He asked them to intercede for Him with the Father.
No were can you show anytime He asked anyone but people on earth to pray as in Matthew 18:19-20.
19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.
20"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."
I would hope all here agree that God the Father sees the future. I know I do.
It makes a person wonder if He gave this passage for discussions such as this.
BVB
God is not restricted by anything, He's God.
Was he transfigured when he called Lazarus back from the dead?
The manifestation of His Divinity on Mt. Tabor was not done by and interior need that had to be fulfilled before he could speak to the departed just, it was to prepare the Apostles for the trials that were about to come.
"It may prove that the just are alive"
It does. So the claim that Catholics talk with the dead is groundless.
"The two untransformed disciples with Him did not talk. It says they were afraid.."
Well, if they were afraid to talk that doesn't mean they were unable to.
"It said He talked with them. It did not say He asked them to intercede for Him with the Father."
Christ needs no intercessors, no one claimed that he was asking them for their prayers, He's God. The point originally was that Catholics transgress the First Commandment by praying to the just for intercession. I've proved that false.
"No were can you show anytime He asked anyone but people on earth to pray as in Matthew 18:19-20."
There's no need, we are all one Body in Christ. You can't separate the head from the body (members):
Jn15:5-7 "I am the vine: you the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch and shall wither: and they shall gather him up and cast him into the fire: and he burneth. If you abide in me and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will: and it shall be done unto you.
Surely the just in heaven are abiding in Christ therefore Christ's words are still applicable to them.
19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.
This shows that Divine help is promised by prayer it doesn't say that the just in heaven can't obtain that same help for those in earth.
God is not restricted by anything, He's God.
I do not agree that God is not restricted by anything. He has to live by the rules He established. If He does not, He will cease to be God. He does nothing without a purpose. If Jesus didn't have to be transformed, He wouldn't have been.
Was he transfigured when he called Lazarus back from the dead?
Let us see what scripture says about that in Jn 11.
2It was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.
3So the sisters sent word to Him, saying, "Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick."
4But when Jesus heard this, He said, "This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it."
He stated; "This sickness is not to end in death."
One could ask; "If this sickness was not to end in death, was He speaking to the dead when He told Lazarus to come out of the tomb?
This whole event was for God's glory so The Christ could be glorified by it as well.
How different is this than when you ask a saint or saints to help you? Who gets the glory?
I watch the Catholic posts to this forum. Very often there is a feast day for a saint for their glorification.
Why are there patron saints that have to be involved before a specific request can be asked?
Who gets the glory if the request is granted? God or the patron saint?
Catholics ask why we have a problem with requests to saints at he same time denying you are putting anyone before God.
The manifestation of His Divinity on Mt. Tabor was not done by an interior need that had to be fulfilled before he could speak to the departed just, it was to prepare the Apostles for the trials that were about to come.
"It may prove that the just are alive"
It does. So the claim that Catholics talk with the dead is groundless.
Once again, it proved they are alive but it shows that no one talked to them except Christ and only after He was transformed.
"The two untransformed disciples with Him did not talk. It says they were afraid.."
Well, if they were afraid to talk that doesn't mean they were unable to.
"It said He talked with them. It did not say He asked them to intercede for Him with the Father."
Christ needs no intercessors, no one claimed that he was asking them for their prayers, He's God. The point originally was that Catholics transgress the First Commandment by praying to the just for intercession. I've proved that false.
We finally agree. Christ needs no intercessors. If Catholics believed that, there would be no need for this conversation.
You've proved nothing I have said wrong. Just the opposite. You admit Catholics prey to the just for intercession. Prayers only go to God where Jesus is the intercessor.
"No were can you show anytime He asked anyone but people on earth to pray as in Matthew 18:19-20."
There's no need, we are all one Body in Christ. You can't separate the head from the body (members):
Jn15:5-7 "I am the vine: you the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch and shall wither: and they shall gather him up and cast him into the fire: and he burneth. If you abide in me and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will: and it shall be done unto you.
Surely the just in heaven are abiding in Christ therefore Christ's words are still applicable to them.
19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.
This shows that Divine help is promised by prayer it doesn't say that the just in heaven can't obtain that same help for those in earth.
What part of Matthew 18:19 "if two or more of you agree on earth" makes you think it includes people in heaven?
BVB
Saints Intercede for us.
Once you understand this it really does not matter how it’s worded since God knows our hearts
From Scripturecatholic.com...
1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.
1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).
1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.
Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (”sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.
Rom. 8:28 - God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.
2 Cor. 6:1 - “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.
1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ’s work of redemption.
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