Posted on 07/28/2009 11:59:42 PM PDT by GonzoII
Every Sunday, millions of Christians around the world recite the Creed, professing their belief in the “communion of saints.” Few realize the importance of this phrase, which is sandwiched between other deep mysteries of the faith.
The Catholic understanding is denounced by many Protestants as “unbiblical.” It’s a bitter irony that the very doctrine of Christian unity has itself become a barrier to unity. The controversy revolves around the question, “Is it biblical to ask the saints in heaven to pray (intercede) for us?”
Catholics say yes. Since Christians are united with each other through Christ, and are commanded to love and pray for one another, Christians on earth can ask Christians in heaven for their prayers.
Protestants say no. They say that praying to saints undermines Christ’s unique mediatorship, pointing to 1 Timothy 2:5: “There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.”
They think asking the saints to intercede for us is in direct conflict with this verse. The Anglican Reformers, under the leadership of Thomas Cranmer, the Archbishop of Canterbury, said, “The Romish doctrine concerning . . . [the] invocation of saints is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but is, rather, repugnant to the Word of God” (39 Articles of Religion, article 22).
Vatican II gave the Catholic position . . . (click to continue reading)
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I know quite a few non Catholics who have prayer groups who pray for people in their church or the sick - what is the difference? If I meet someone I know and find they are in a terrible situation - I say I will pray for them - they accept that quite readily - Catholic or non-Catholic. I cannot understand how asking Mary or the saints to pray for us is so terrible. They are already in heaven.
“I cannot understand how asking Mary or the saints to pray for us is so terrible. They are already in heaven.”
Are those who are in heaven, other than the Trinity and the angels, aware of what is going on in this world?
Why sure, we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses:
Heb: 12:1
A primer for protestants?
How about, “Some men in fancy robes way long ago made a bunch of complicated rules to keep themselves in power, and tradition matters to us more than the simplicity of God’s plan, and all the rigamarole makes us feel good, and it would be terribly upsetting to just follow scripture, so leave us alone?”
“Are those who are in heaven, other than the Trinity and the angels, aware of what is going on in this world?”
Only in the West would that question be asked. In the East it is understood that there is a constant “back and forth” of angels and saints and the Theotokos between earth and heaven. We “see” our patron saints with the “nous”, the eye of the soul and they are very real. Although mass visions like the appearance of the Theotokos over a church in Egypt are a matter of wonder, that a regular Christian would see her or saints while saying daily prayers or at the Divine Liturgy is not all that remarkable. We expect to see them...and we have no doubt that they intercede for us just as much as we intercede for each other.
Troo dat.
You wrote:
“Are those who are in heaven, other than the Trinity and the angels, aware of what is going on in this world?”
Sure. I think they rejoice over conversions as implied in Luke 15:7-10 and they seek the justice on earth as alluded to in Rev. 6:10.
And if they are not aware then I think Rev. 5:8 makes no sense.
You wrote:
“How about, “Some men in fancy robes way long ago made a bunch of complicated rules to keep themselves in power,...”
What power were the martyrs and saints seeking?
“...and tradition matters to us more than the simplicity of God’s plan,”
If it’s so simple, then why can’t even Protestants fully agree on what it is or how exactly it works? Just think of infant baptism. Is it necessary? Is it effectual? Is there grace involved in it? Now gather ten Protestants together from ten different denominations (something that can be done on almost any street in America) and have them hash out things on infant baptism. You won’t see a whole lot of unity on these issues. Simple plan?
“...and all the rigamarole makes us feel good,”
Rigamarole to make us feel good? So truth is irrelevant now?
“...and it would be terribly upsetting to just follow scripture, so leave us alone?”
We follow scripture. We wrote it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit after all. Your sect on the other hand is a recent man-made creation. You could learn from the Church sent by Christ - but not with such hatred in your heart.
The “we’re just asking the departed to pray for us” usually gets trotted out in defense of what is unmistakably asking the dead to DO (”save us”, “protect us”, “grant us”, “give us”, etc.) things, along with words of praise and adoration - indistinguishable from outright worship violating the 1st Commandment.
Protestants - for all their preaching about a “personal relationship with Christ” - seem to view heaven as very remote, far beyond an unbreakable veil.
You wrote:
“The “we’re just asking the departed to pray for us” usually gets trotted out in defense of what is unmistakably asking the dead to DO (”save us”, “protect us”, “grant us”, “give us”, etc.) things, along with words of praise and adoration - indistinguishable from outright worship violating the 1st Commandment.”
No.
1) There’s no adoration.
2) We praise saints only in their relationship to the God Who made them saints.
3) No saint has any power other than that given him by God.
4) Saints aren’t dead.
Matthew 22:29... Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
God is the God of the living. The saints are alive in God.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Okay. Is this then making it personal:
You wrote:
“How about, “Some men in fancy robes way long ago made a bunch of complicated rules to keep themselves in power, and tradition matters to us more than the simplicity of God’s plan, and all the rigamarole makes us feel good, and it would be terribly upsetting to just follow scripture, so leave us alone?””
Try this instead:
How about, “Some men in fancy robes almost 500 years ago decided to serve Satan’s goals rather than God’s. They put themselves in power, encouraged violence, theft and destruction, cut books from the Bible, and denied the inspiration of some. They falsely claimed the truth was rigamarole and became effective in teaching their followers to hate everything and everyone Catholic. Those people were the so-called Protestant Reformers, and they are still effective today at encouraging ignorance, bitterness, and even hatred among their religious descendents as is evidenced by some responses in this thread.
Is that personal? Seriously, I’m just asking.
It is not unusual when one belief spawns from another for each side to condemn the other in the harshest terms it can muster, e.g. heretic, apostate, cult, Satanic. Those terms often become part of the official documents, some are deeply held even today and the beliefs are subject to open religious debate (pro and con.)
The line I draw is hate mongering which like pornography, I know when I see it (e.g. Jack Chick, Christian Identity, Aryan Nations, the False Jesuit Oath, KKK, anti-Semitism.)
1. Those prayers sure sound “adoring” to me. “Most sacred...”, “Merciful...”, “O compassionate...”, “Holy...”, etc.
2. Nothing in Scripture warrants praising, unto deifying glorification, any other than God.
3. Scripture does not depict ANY “dearly departed” having power to influence the living world.
4. Saints have passed on. They are no more. They has ceased to be. They have expired and gone to meet their maker. The individual is now a stiff. Bereft of life, they rest in peace. If someone hasn’t stuck ‘em in a box they’re pushing up the daisies. The metabolic processes are now history. S/he’s off the twig. They’ve kicked the bucket, shuffled off their mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. They’re dead!
Nothing in Scripture portrays any of the dearly departed as having influence upon the living, be it directly or by intercession. Resurrection will come, but lacking physical embodiment there is no indication their spirit interacts with this world.
You wrote:
“1. Those prayers sure sound “adoring” to me. “Most sacred...”, “Merciful...”, “O compassionate...”, “Holy...”, etc.”
That wouldn’t surprise me that you misunderstand the prayers.
“2. Nothing in Scripture warrants praising, unto deifying glorification, any other than God.”
Well, since we don’t glorigy onto deification any saint your point is moot at best.
“3. Scripture does not depict ANY “dearly departed” having power to influence the living world.”
It doesn’t have to. Scripture was never intended to contain all truths.
“4. Saints have passed on. They are no more. They has ceased to be. They have expired and gone to meet their maker. The individual is now a stiff.”
Not at all. You are committing a serious error. An individual is his soul. Hie body is almost incidental. In other words, we are really our souls. Many people - like yourself - make the mistake of thinking we are our bodies. This is the direct result of the inherent materialism that comes from Protestantism. No body, no person so to speak. In reality, however, we are our souls. When you die let’s say you go to heaven. The resurrection has not happened. Have you gone to heaven or not? Yes, you went...even without your body. Thus, who we REALLY ARE is our soul AND NOT OUR BODY. I am surprised at how many people I encounter who do not understand this simple and undeniable truth.
“Bereft of life, they rest in peace. If someone hasn’t stuck ‘em in a box they’re pushing up the daisies. The metabolic processes are now history. S/he’s off the twig. They’ve kicked the bucket, shuffled off their mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. They’re dead!”
Souls in heaven are dead? You’re completely wrong. Since you believe in sola scriptura, show me where in the Bible it says those in heaven perpetually glorifying God are in reality just dead bodies rather than living souls alive in Christ. Can you do that?
“Nothing in Scripture portrays any of the dearly departed as having influence upon the living, be it directly or by intercession.”
Why would it have to show it?
“Resurrection will come, but lacking physical embodiment there is no indication their spirit interacts with this world.”
Souls in heaven interact with souls on earth through prayer and Christ’s grace.
The core issues are:
- there is nothing in Scripture suggesting the departed intercede for us nor have influence over the world
- the first commandment forbids worshiping any but God, and one should refrain from minimizing what constitutes “worship” in that context
- someone here is grossly deficient in their studies of Monty Python.
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