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RU 486 Users Risk Automatic Excommunication: Vatican Responds to Italian Drug Agency Decision
LifeSiteNews ^ | 8/3/09 | Hilary White

Posted on 08/03/2009 3:45:25 PM PDT by wagglebee

ROME, August 3, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) - When the Italian drug agency approved the sale of the deadly abortion drug RU 486 late Thursday night, senior Vatican officials responded strongly saying that doctors who prescribe it and the women who take it risk excommunication. The Italian Pharmaceuticals Agency (AIFA) said the drug, to be sold under the brand name Mifegyne, would not be sold in pharmacies and only be administered by physicians in hospitals.

Bishop Elio Sgreccia, a bioethics professor, author and former vice-president of the Pontifical Academy for Life (PAV) told Corriere della Sera newspaper, "This is a compound which kills the foetus and one much promoted by the pharmaceutical industry. It is an incitement to abort. It is absolutely unacceptable and leads to automatic excommunication."

He added, "First abortion was legalised to stop it being clandestine, but now doctors are washing their hands of it and transferring the burden of conscience to women."

The current head of the PAV, Archbishop Salvatore Fisichella said, "An embryo is not a bunch of cells. It is a real and full human life and to suppress it is a responsibility no one can take without fully realising the consequences."

Fisichella, however, refused to state outright that these "consequences" include automatic excommunication. In an interview with Corriere della Sera, he said, "It is obvious that the canonical consequences are the same as for surgical abortion, this is known. But I do not want to make a declaration." Asked why not, he added that such a declaration would be "too easy".

In an article in Saturday's Italian edition of L'Osservatore Romano, Fisichella wrote that the drug will "lead to a trivialization of the concept of life." The drug is "an evil in and of itself because it takes a human life. This life, which is only visible through the assistance of technology, possesses the same dignity inherent in every person."

The vote of the AIFA board of directors in favour of the drug, after a reportedly heated four-hour debate, was four to one. Romano Colozzi, the dissenting member, warned, "The apparent ease of this pharmacological method will inevitably lower the level of caution and responsibility."

Some legislators in the government of Silvio Berlusconi had also opposed the decision. Citing the statistics from the Italian health agency showing at least 29 maternal deaths associated with the drug, Eugenia Roccella, the subsecretary of the health office, indicated reservations about the decision. She told media that despite their decision, an "interchange of opinions" would continue between AIFA and the health ministry.

Gianni Alemanno, the mayor of Rome said, "Infanticide is, in fact, being legalised for the modest sum of €14 a tablet."

Abortion on demand up to the end of the third month of pregnancy has been legal in Italy since 1978. It is estimated, however, that the nearly 70 per cent of doctors in Italy who are conscientious objectors to abortion will not prescribe the drug.

Italy was one of the last EU countries to resist legalising the deadly drug that is the subject of massive class action law suits in the US. Developed in France, RU-486 or mifepristone is approved as a prescription drug in the US and througout the European Union except, as of Friday, in Ireland and Portugal.

The prevalence of RU 486 in the abortion industry is growing worldwide. In 2007, figures released for England and Wales revealed that 43 per cent of early abortions were the result of RU 486, called "medical" abortion in much of the medical literature.


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Moral Issues; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: abortion; catholic; excommunication; italy; lataesententiae; moralabsolutes; pope; prolife; rome; ru486; vatican
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The current head of the PAV, Archbishop Salvatore Fisichella said, "An embryo is not a bunch of cells. It is a real and full human life and to suppress it is a responsibility no one can take without fully realising the consequences."

Well said!

1 posted on 08/03/2009 3:45:26 PM PDT by wagglebee
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To: cgk; Coleus; cpforlife.org; narses; Salvation; 8mmMauser

Pro-Life Ping


2 posted on 08/03/2009 3:46:07 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: NYer; Pyro7480

Ping for your lists


3 posted on 08/03/2009 3:46:45 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

And more importantly an embryo is a soul.

Christ was fully God/fully Man from the moment of conception.

A Christian must understand this connection yet its not commonly part of the debate.


4 posted on 08/03/2009 4:00:18 PM PDT by lucias_clay (Impeach Odinga's Cousin)
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To: wagglebee

**Abortion on demand up to the end of the third month of pregnancy has been legal in Italy since 1978. It is estimated, however, that the nearly 70 per cent of doctors in Italy who are conscientious objectors to abortion will not prescribe the drug.**

Not quite enough doctors there — but maybe others will be swayed and have more joined their ranks.


5 posted on 08/03/2009 5:15:20 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: lucias_clay
And more importantly an embryo is a soul.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It appears that the soul is created when a baby breathes on his/her own...

6 posted on 08/03/2009 5:35:49 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...
remember clinton used executive order to reinstate the use of ru-486 and bush never rescinded it.
7 posted on 08/03/2009 5:56:27 PM PDT by Coleus (Abortion, Euthanasia & FOCA - - don't Obama and the Democrats just kill ya!)
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To: wagglebee
Unfortunately "excommunication" doesn't exactly have the same impact it once had. People once feared God and took it seriously. The excommunicated would only see this as God rejecting them, instead of them rejecting God and his Commandments.
8 posted on 08/03/2009 6:18:47 PM PDT by pray4liberty (http://www.aroodawakening.tv)
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To: Iscool
It appears that the soul is created when a baby breathes on his/her own...

My son was born prematurely and needed to be on the ventilator to breathe.

9 posted on 08/03/2009 6:21:36 PM PDT by pray4liberty (http://www.aroodawakening.tv)
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To: Coleus

***I remember clinton used executive order to reinstate the use of ru-486 and bush never rescinded it.***

Bush did not eradicate all evil in the White House. He merely ended some of it. It is incumbent upon us all to ensure that the term that Obama has been elected to does not lead to another one. His actions thus far certainly help his next election loss. What say you all?


10 posted on 08/03/2009 6:31:48 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Iscool
It appears that the soul is created when a baby breathes on his/her own...

Psalm 139 -

13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.

15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

11 posted on 08/03/2009 6:44:41 PM PDT by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: wagglebee
The current head of the PAV[Pontifical Academy for Life], Archbishop Salvatore Fisichella said, "An embryo is not a bunch of cells. It is a real and full human life and to suppress it is a responsibility no one can take without fully realising the consequences."

Fisichella, however, refused to state outright that these "consequences" include automatic excommunication. In an interview with Corriere della Sera, he said, "It is obvious that the canonical consequences are the same as for surgical abortion, this is known. But I do not want to make a declaration." Asked why not, he added that such a declaration would be "too easy".

The big problem is that modern technology is going to find a way to have dirt-cheap abortions and make millions of dollars doing this. We are going to get mass-produced abortions. We will no longer worry about a comparative handful of abortions: a million and a half a year. We will not know how many deaths will be administered. It may be twice as many; we will have no sure way of knowing. What we know is that it will be so unbelievably easy that the numbers of abortions will skyrocket. There is going to be no way to stop it by picketing. Besides, we will not have anyone specific to picket....

....There are tens of millions of men and women who will not vote to ban the sale of such a product. This is our problem. It is a political problem resting on a specific moral foundation: humanism. The problem is judicial. It is corporate. And finally, when the physicians are driven out of business by mass produced abortifacient, pro-lifers are going to face a new reality. They are going to realize that it is not abortion as such that is the problem. It is the problem of a society that has legalized abortion.

from the thread Letter To Paul Hill [part 8 of 13]:The Technology of Low-Cost Murder
12 posted on 08/03/2009 6:59:24 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("I always longed for repose and quiet" - John Calvin)
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To: wagglebee

Kind of sad that this rule has to be made.


13 posted on 08/03/2009 7:14:13 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Iscool
You never learn.

Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise.

"Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremias 1:5

14 posted on 08/03/2009 7:42:47 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: A.A. Cunningham; Grizzled Bear
You never learn.

Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise.

"Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremias 1:5

Oh, I forget...Some of you guys don't spend enough time in the scriptures to know that like God, humans have a body, a spirit and a soul...We were made in THEIR image...

And again;

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And even tho you can't figure it out, that doesn't disqualify the verses you guys posted...

15 posted on 08/03/2009 9:30:32 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: wagglebee

Pro-Life bump


16 posted on 08/03/2009 9:37:14 PM PDT by Dajjal (Obama is an Ericksonian NLP hypnotist.)
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To: Iscool
And even tho you can't figure it out, that doesn't disqualify the verses you guys posted

Do you think that Christianity is some kind of clever puzzle that you have to "figure out," so you can pat yourself on the back while you congratulate yourself on how much smarter you are than the poor, stupid Catlicks?

That's what tradition is for, see. It's admitting that people other than Iscool are guided by the Holy Spirit and can make sense out of those passages that are "hard to figure out".

See how clear it can be:

"do not murder a child by abortion or kill a newborn infant" -- The Didache, circa AD 80.

Simple. Correct. And Biblical.

17 posted on 08/03/2009 10:37:01 PM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
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To: Campion
Do you think that Christianity is some kind of clever puzzle that you have to "figure out," so you can pat yourself on the back while you congratulate yourself on how much smarter you are than the poor, stupid Catlicks?

Fact is, Christianity is pretty simple...Too simple for some...

As I see it, there are two keys in knowing what the scripture says...The first one is that you have to know some of the scripture...And the second one is you have to believe it...

And in my experience, most Catholic aren't real good at either one...

But no, it has nothing to do with intelligence or intellect...It has to do with wanting to know what God says to us...

That's what tradition is for, see. It's admitting that people other than Iscool are guided by the Holy Spirit and can make sense out of those passages that are "hard to figure out".

I didn't post any scripture that was hard to figure out...Often, the scripture is too hard for many to believe...

18 posted on 08/03/2009 11:17:49 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: wagglebee
Bishop Elio Sgreccia, a bioethics professor, author and former vice-president of the Pontifical Academy for Life (PAV) told Corriere della Sera newspaper, "This is a compound which kills the foetus and one much promoted by the pharmaceutical industry. It is an incitement to abort. It is absolutely unacceptable and leads to automatic excommunication."

This is an issue that Evangelicals and Roman Catholics are co-belligerents fighting. However, when has the RCC publicly excommunicated anyone who created these policies and supports abortion?

I know there are many fine Christians who have protested at clinics, offered counseling to pregnant women, and provide adoption services. It is at the top where only lip service is given, no real confrontation/consequences for those who create the laws, or support them.

19 posted on 08/04/2009 7:20:02 AM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wagglebee
"This is a compound which kills the foetus and one much promoted by the pharmaceutical industry. It is an incitement to abort."

*********************

Tempting someone to sin is in itself a sin.

20 posted on 08/04/2009 7:25:23 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Iscool; Campion; Coleus; narses; Salvation; trisham; lucias_clay; A.A. Cunningham; Grizzled Bear
Fact is, Christianity is pretty simple...Too simple for some...

As I see it, there are two keys in knowing what the scripture says...The first one is that you have to know some of the scripture...And the second one is you have to believe it...

And in my experience, most Catholic aren't real good at either one...

Now there's a new twist on Catholic bashing. You accuse Catholics of not knowing Scripture and using this to justify YOUR support of abortion.

As far as your Scriptural reference to Adam's CREATION, you seem to miss the FACT that Adam was CREATED, he was not conceived as EVERY OTHER PERSON since Adam and Eve have been.

21 posted on 08/04/2009 9:08:55 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee; Iscool

Is it possible to go any lower than using the Bible to justify abortion?


22 posted on 08/04/2009 9:16:47 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: wagglebee
Now there's a new twist on Catholic bashing. You accuse Catholics of not knowing Scripture and using this to justify YOUR support of abortion.

I think you'll be hard pressed to locate a post of mine over the last eleven years that promotes abortion...Go ahead, give it a try...

As far as your Scriptural reference to Adam's CREATION, you seem to miss the FACT that Adam was CREATED, he was not conceived as EVERY OTHER PERSON since Adam and Eve have been.

Didn't miss it at all...Adam didn't breath...A baby in the womb doesn't breathe...Now if you can correct that with scripture, I'd be more than happy to learn something new...But don't bother with old Catholic wive's tales...

23 posted on 08/04/2009 9:20:23 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: trisham
Is it possible to go any lower than using the Bible to justify abortion?

Is it true that you practice witchcraft???

24 posted on 08/04/2009 9:22:42 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool

Do you support abortion?


25 posted on 08/04/2009 9:24:12 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: trisham
Do you support abortion?

Of course not...

26 posted on 08/04/2009 9:55:30 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool

Your problem is relying solely on the scriptures. The Church doesn’t rely solely on the scriptures when it says that life begins at conception.


27 posted on 08/04/2009 10:03:55 AM PDT by Pope Pius XII (There's no such thing as divorce)
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To: Iscool

At any stage of life?


28 posted on 08/04/2009 10:29:45 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Iscool; Campion; Coleus; narses; Salvation; trisham; lucias_clay; A.A. Cunningham; Grizzled Bear
I think you'll be hard pressed to locate a post of mine over the last eleven years that promotes abortion...Go ahead, give it a try...

In post 6 you stated that until the baby breathes it has no soul. This is what abortionists have been saying for decades, they believe that the unborn baby has no soul and therefore isn't human.

Didn't miss it at all...Adam didn't breath...A baby in the womb doesn't breathe...Now if you can correct that with scripture, I'd be more than happy to learn something new...But don't bother with old Catholic wive's tales...

What is this "Catholic wive's tale" you are referring to?

NOWHERE in Scripture does it say a person must breathe to have a soul (including the verse you quoted).

29 posted on 08/04/2009 11:29:35 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wmfights
This is an issue that Evangelicals and Roman Catholics are co-belligerents fighting. However, when has the RCC publicly excommunicated anyone who created these policies and supports abortion?

I know there are many fine Christians who have protested at clinics, offered counseling to pregnant women, and provide adoption services. It is at the top where only lip service is given, no real confrontation/consequences for those who create the laws, or support them.

I agree completely. It is long past the time when the Catholic Church needs to publicly proclaim that until they atone for their sins, certain people are excommunicated and they need to NAME NAMES.

And I think that non-Catholic Evangelical leaders need to do the same thing, I realize that many of them do not have a formal method of excommunication, but they can make it clear that certain people have, by their own actions, damned their souls unless they repent.

I believe that if some Evangelicals and Catholic bishops were to issue a joint statement about people like Obama, Sebelius, Pelosi, the Clintons, etc., it would have a very dramatic effect.

30 posted on 08/04/2009 1:06:14 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: trisham
At any stage of life?

Correctomundo...And I may be wrong...But as I see it, all children are a gift from God...

But then I'm a softie anyway...I don't kill puppies, kittens or anything else...Whether in the womb or not...

31 posted on 08/04/2009 1:50:11 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: wagglebee
And I think that non-Catholic Evangelical leaders need to do the same thing, I realize that many of them do not have a formal method of excommunication, but they can make it clear that certain people have, by their own actions, damned their souls unless they repent.

You're right, too few Evangelical churches exercise the church discipline they should. We do have some, but nowhere near enough.

I believe that if some Evangelicals and Catholic bishops were to issue a joint statement about people like Obama, Sebelius, Pelosi, the Clintons, etc., it would have a very dramatic effect.

For it to have any effect they have to say until they repent, and prove they have repented by undoing the damage they've done, they are not welcome in church and if they show up they will be told to leave. If we really want to end these terrible things like abortion people must be forced to pick sides.

32 posted on 08/04/2009 3:25:45 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: All
Pinged from Terri Dailies


33 posted on 08/04/2009 4:26:12 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Iscool

***But then I’m a softie anyway...I don’t kill puppies, kittens or anything else...Whether in the womb or not...***

May I enquire about the non breathing in the womb; and whether you eat meat or any living vegetation?


34 posted on 08/04/2009 5:53:42 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Pope Pius XII
Your problem is relying solely on the scriptures. The Church doesn’t rely solely on the scriptures when it says that life begins at conception.

It's certainly not my problem...When God say don't add to the words of the book, that's not one of the sins I'm guilty of...I won't be standing there on judgement day trying to explain why I perverted the scriptures...

So if you want to add to the book or take away from it, good luck to ya...

35 posted on 08/04/2009 5:54:00 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: wagglebee
NOWHERE in Scripture does it say a person must breathe to have a soul (including the verse you quoted).

You have the prerogative of making any scripture mean what you want it to mean...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The passage says Adam became a living soul when the breath of life was breathed into him...

I guess you can claim it means what ever you want it to mean...But that won't change what it clearly says...

36 posted on 08/04/2009 6:01:55 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: MarkBsnr
May I enquire about the non breathing in the womb; and whether you eat meat or any living vegetation?

Inquire away...

37 posted on 08/04/2009 6:07:19 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool

Okay; I’d rather enquire, though.

Do you think that fetuses in the womb are living humans?

Do you eat meat? Do you eat vegetation that is or was living (as opposed to fruit which drops away from the main plant)?


38 posted on 08/04/2009 6:37:47 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Coleus
clinton used executive order to reinstate the use of ru-486 and bush never rescinded it.

because there are other uses for it as a drug...it only got FDA approval...a president can delay approval but not stop the bureaucrats.

39 posted on 08/05/2009 1:51:24 AM PDT by LadyDoc (liberals only love politically correct poor people)
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To: MarkBsnr
Do you think that fetuses in the womb are living humans?

For the life of me I can't figure out how your religion missed it, or refuses to acknowledge a very basic fact...It took your religion 400 years to accept the idea that God is a Trinity even tho your religion can't seem to find it in the scriptures...

Your religion still can't figure out that we as babies are created in the image of God...The Trinitarian God...

Adam was created out of the dust...He was lifeless at the time...A baby is created in the womb...It gets if life from the mother...Cut the umbilical cord in the womb and it's all over for the baby...

Adam came to life when God breathed into him...A baby comes to independent life when when it breathes the breath of life...Does God provide this breath of life??? I believe so...

When Adam AND a new baby takes on a life of it's own, God provides the baby (and Adam) with a soul...

And to answer your question; yes I believe a fetus in the womb is a living human being...He/she can not yet live on his/her own but just as alive and human as you or me...

Do you eat meat? Do you eat vegetation that is or was living (as opposed to fruit which drops away from the main plant)?

Are we playing a game here??? No I'm not a vegetarian...I do however eat far less red meat than I used to...

40 posted on 08/05/2009 5:05:57 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The passage says Adam became a living soul when the breath of life was breathed into him...

And "the breath of life" is what?

Fresh air? Oxygen and nitrogen?

Pray a little over this passage. What "life" does God "breathe" into us? What does it mean to be a "living soul"?

Hint: it means a little more than the inhalation of oxygen and the expulsion of carbon dioxide.

41 posted on 08/05/2009 6:28:24 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: marshmallow
Hint: it means a little more than the inhalation of oxygen and the expulsion of carbon dioxide.

Well sure...If you don't want to believe God...If you don't believe God when He says we have a spirit, you could you possibly grasp any spiritual truths from the scripture??? You can't...

42 posted on 08/05/2009 6:39:02 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool

you could you=how could you


43 posted on 08/05/2009 6:40:03 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool

By the way,

You said “When God say”, you didn’t make a whole lot of sense there. That’s incorrect english. I challenge you to show me where in the Old and New Testament where it says that we rely soley on the scriptures.


44 posted on 08/05/2009 8:35:29 AM PDT by Pope Pius XII (There's no such thing as divorce)
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To: Iscool; Campion; Coleus; narses; Salvation; trisham; lucias_clay; A.A. Cunningham; Grizzled Bear; ..
The passage says Adam became a living soul when the breath of life was breathed into him...

And what EXACTLY does the "breath of life" have to do with breathing? Is it oxygen? When does God breathe the breath of life into our nostrils? When a person dies and goes to Heaven they are NO LONGER BREATHING, does the breath of life not exist in Paradise? Please be specific.

Perhaps for extra credit you could compare the "breath of life" to our Lord's discourse on the Bread of Life in John Chapter 6. I for one would love to see you spin those verses, especially after the stand you've taken on the breath of life.

Try to remember that when God breathed into Adam's nostrils, he gave MAN the breath of life. At that moment Adam WAS mankind, God gave ALL MANKIND the breath of life. Adam was formed from dust, Eve was formed from Adam (you will notice that God DID NOT breathe on Eve's face), the REST of us have been CONCEIVED.

45 posted on 08/05/2009 9:06:54 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Iscool
Well sure...If you don't want to believe God...If you don't believe God when He says we have a spirit, you could you possibly grasp any spiritual truths from the scripture??? You can't...

Yes, quite right. I don't want to believe God and I'm incapable of grasping spiritual truths. I forgot that I'm a Catholic! What was I thinking?.......*slaps forehead*........

I bow to your infallible, one man, Scripture magisterium.

So you take God's word literally? If only it were true! I guess you assume that us Catholics are not only spiritually illiterate but that we also have no memories. Having seen you frequently poor scorn on the Catholic belief of the Real Presence in the Eucharist, in spite of the clear words of Jesus in Ch. 6 of John's Gospel (......"my flesh is real food"......), I'm inclined to think that you also suffer from the same malady with which you believe Catholicism to be afflicted. It's patently obvious from your own collective Scriptural.......*cough*........."exegeses" offered on this site over a considerable period that your own Biblical insights are every bit as whimsical and arbitrary as those which you ascribe to Catholics. "Believing God" is apparently a problem for you also when it suits.

The thing which fascinates me, however, is the utter conviction and total absence of self-doubt with which you trash 2,000 years of tradition, scholarship and saintly insight. What causes a man to pick up a Bible, read a few passages and instantaneously proclaim Aquinas or Basil or Benedict to be a dunce or a devil? Is it pride? Lack of prudence? Both of the above? Doesn't a sane man pause before placing his own opinion above all of this?

46 posted on 08/05/2009 9:25:37 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: Iscool

***Do you think that fetuses in the womb are living humans?

For the life of me I can’t figure out how your religion missed it, or refuses to acknowledge a very basic fact***

I was asking about your personal belief in order to try to understand some of your previous comments.

***Do you eat meat? Do you eat vegetation that is or was living (as opposed to fruit which drops away from the main plant)?

Are we playing a game here??? No I’m not a vegetarian...I do however eat far less red meat than I used to...***

You said that you don’t kill things. One must kill things if only by proxy to eat meat or living plants. The Jains practice a very reverent attitude towards life. They wear veils over their mouths to avoid breathing in bugs; they do not tread on insects and only eat fruit or other vegetation that has fallen from the tree or is already dead. They come very close to non hypocrisy when it comes to reverencing all life. Closer than most anyway.


47 posted on 08/05/2009 4:22:46 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: marshmallow; Iscool

***I bow to your infallible, one man, Scripture magisterium.

........

The thing which fascinates me, however, is the utter conviction and total absence of self-doubt with which you trash 2,000 years of tradition, scholarship and saintly insight. What causes a man to pick up a Bible, read a few passages and instantaneously proclaim Aquinas or Basil or Benedict to be a dunce or a devil?***

This is the logical result of Luther’s every milkmaid. Whether the Church of Iscool or the Latter Day Saints, the rationale is the same, only the particulars of the novel theologies differ according to the whims of the milkmaid theologian.


48 posted on 08/05/2009 6:46:12 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: wagglebee
So I take it you reject the idea of a trinitarian man...Even tho scripture tells us we were made in 'their' image...Who is 'their'???

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

These are just a sampling of the scriptures that deal with body, soul and spirit...Why can't you find that information in the scripture??? Who knows, maybe you don't look...

And why hasn't your religion found that in the scriptures??? You should maybe ask them...

But one thing is clear; you don't have to be a biblical scholar to find it...

And what EXACTLY does the "breath of life" have to do with breathing? Is it oxygen? When does God breathe the breath of life into our nostrils? When a person dies and goes to Heaven they are NO LONGER BREATHING, does the breath of life not exist in Paradise? Please be specific.

Good questions although I'm sure you don't expect an answer...

The breath of life is the spirit of man...It is that which makes your heart beat...And your lungs to function...And when your soul and spirit no longer need your body, they leave it....

Perhaps for extra credit you could compare the "breath of life" to our Lord's discourse on the Bread of Life in John Chapter 6. I for one would love to see you spin those verses, especially after the stand you've taken on the breath of life.

Oh come now...I can show you all kinds of scripture that deal with the body, soul and spirit of man...You can't provide a single verse that gives anyone the authority or ability to turn a little wafer into the flesh of Jesus Christ...Not one...

49 posted on 08/05/2009 9:45:19 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: marshmallow
So you take God's word literally? If only it were true! I guess you assume that us Catholics are not only spiritually illiterate but that we also have no memories. Having seen you frequently poor scorn on the Catholic belief of the Real Presence in the Eucharist, in spite of the clear words of Jesus in Ch. 6 of John's Gospel (......"my flesh is real food"......), I'm inclined to think that you also suffer from the same malady with which you believe Catholicism to be afflicted. It's patently obvious from your own collective Scriptural.......*cough*........."exegeses" offered on this site over a considerable period that your own Biblical insights are every bit as whimsical and arbitrary as those which you ascribe to Catholics. "Believing God" is apparently a problem for you also when it suits.

Nope...I believe Jesus said 'my flesh is real food'...And I believe Jesus said eat my flesh...

But realizing Jesus gave no one the authority or ability to change those little wafers into His flesh, nor yours, I realized there was more to the meaning of those scriptures than meets the eye...

Jesus said 'break' the bread...You guys don't do that...Jesus said drink the wine...You guys don't even do that...

You have not only made a mockery of what Jesus said to do, you added a fairy tale to the mix that gives you the ability and suthority to perform these feats even tho Jesus never spoke about any such thing...

You guys can perpetuate the charade of turning wine into blood even tho it still tastes, feels, looks, acts and walks and talks like wine without any scriptural means to make it so, but at the same time, you reject anything such as a trinitarian man with tons of scriptural support...

Shoot, most Catholics don't believe in your 'real presence'...Why would you expect a non Catholic holding a bible in his hands to believe something like that...

The thing which fascinates me, however, is the utter conviction and total absence of self-doubt with which you trash 2,000 years of tradition, scholarship and saintly insight. What causes a man to pick up a Bible, read a few passages and instantaneously proclaim Aquinas or Basil or Benedict to be a dunce or a devil? Is it pride? Lack of prudence? Both of the above?

Doesn't a sane man pause before placing his own opinion above all of this?

Not for half a second...And I don't believe your pope is a dunce...No doubt he's pretty smart and very educated...

The Hindus have more than 2000 years of tradition...I don't buy into that either...

Scholarship you say??? One of your scholars who had a major influence on your beliefs was Origen...And his big thing was that most of the scriptures were a metaphor...That's what he pushed...And it took hold...

So that's where they left you...You can't read and study scripture out of the sight of your religion...And your religion teaches you that you can't believe literally most of the scriptures BUT you are to believe the many, many add-ons that your religion created which goes against the will of God...And they told you not to believe THAT either...

I give your scholars no more credit than I give the Hindu scholars...

There's a vast difference between a theological scholar and a biblical scholar...

50 posted on 08/05/2009 10:34:10 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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