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Benefits of Knowing Bible Prophecy
MSMB ^ | August 11th, 2009 | Rob W. Case

Posted on 08/11/2009 12:05:41 AM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]

Prophecy is a fascinating, compelling, and ever-so interesting field of study. It is history written in advance. When you get into it, and I mean really into it, you can see God’s will for the world and see his plan unfold in it. Understanding Bible Prophecy serves these functions.

1. It proves the validity of the promises of God. 2. It reminds us that God is in control. 3. It serves as an instrument for measuring the moral and immoral state of humanity. 4. It serves as a tool to prepare us for the Lord’s return, so that we will be ready both spiritually and morally when we meet him face to face. 5. We will reach a point when we all know that all we did after receiving Christ as our savior, telling others, and bringing up the hope that was in us was worth it.

(Excerpt) Read more at makingsense.proboards.com ...


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; History; Judaism; Skeptics/Seekers
KEYWORDS: bibleprophecy; endoftheworld; endtimes; prophecy; returnofchrist
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Bible Prophecy is one of the most compelling and interesting fields to observe. It is interesting because it proves beyond a reasonable doubt that God's will, will prevail, that mankind cannot interfere with His promises and get away with it, and that Christ's return is right around the corner. Bible Prophecy chronicles the alignment of predictions made by God and their fulfillment in history. But it doesn't stop there. Prophecy proves the validity of the faith, and reveals tangible evidence that secular history and Bible Prophecy work together hand in hand.

To watch the YouTube version of this article, here it is, divided into three segments.

Segment 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTckTgSlEvw&feature=channel

Segment 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EONJFXQnDoE

Segment 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkWMdWn9h-o

Enjoy!!!

1 posted on 08/11/2009 12:05:41 AM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]

Thanks for the post.


2 posted on 08/11/2009 12:30:48 AM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
I like your site and can't watch the YouTubes tonight but will tomorrow. You have a lot you are putting out there and I think it is time. Thank you so much for your commitment and work. I hope to check it all out soon. I enjoyed your eyeballing the content you have written and organized so well on your website as well. Keep it up! You've a lot to offer. :-D.
3 posted on 08/11/2009 12:36:22 AM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: GOP Poet

Thank you so much for the encouragement GOP Poet. I am a deep researcher, and staunch advocate for truth, and amidst this, there is a sense that things especially relating to prophecy are coming to a head. I believe that our actions determine God’s next move. I see it vitally important to do all of this for the Kingdom, and more is on the way. Thanks again.


4 posted on 08/11/2009 2:10:33 AM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]

Yes. All of what you have said about yourself shows. You are also very clear, engaging, and precise in your writing. I look forward to watching the videos and reading more on your site. It is vital and I so appreciate your reminder and sharing your research. It is easy to get skewed off course.


5 posted on 08/11/2009 2:23:29 AM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: GOP Poet

Bible prophecy is good for as long as you know how to interpret the Bible. 99% of Protestant interpretation of the Bible is plain rubbish!


6 posted on 08/11/2009 6:47:28 AM PDT by Ramonchito
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Alex Murphy; Lee N. Field; raynearhood
The nation of Israel’s existence within this very age was birthed by a promise, and protected by a promise. As long as the nation of Israel exists, God once again proves to the world that he exists, and that His will, will prevail.

There is no biblical evidence that the modern secular state of Israel is the fulfillment of prophejcy. All the prophecies speak of restoration of the faithful remnant. Amos 9 that was quoted is a perfect example.

11 "On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old; 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, And all the Gentiles who are called by My name," Says the Lord who does this thing.
In Acts 15 James quotes this passage as evidence that the promise of God to include the gentiles within the covenant community was being fulfilled. The evidence was faith. By quoting Amos in the context of gentiles coming to faith in Christ in the 1st century James makes it clear that these are not fleshly promises being fulfilled, but spiritual. The unbelieving Jews were looking to the flesh. "But the just shall live by faith."

But modern Israel is in unbelief. They hate the Son of God and deny the covenant in His blood. Israel cannot in any way fulfill prophecy, except to show how the remnant is being saved, by faith in Christ. The true offspring of Abraham are the remnant who have experienced spiritual circumcision.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3)

7 posted on 08/11/2009 6:29:26 PM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Alex Murphy; Lee N. Field; raynearhood
You wrote:

“I am a deep researcher, and staunch advocate for truth, and amidst this, there is a sense that things especially relating to prophecy are coming to a head.”

“As long as the nation of Israel exists, God once again proves to the world that he exists, and that His will, will prevail.”

So, are you saying that if the modern, secular state of Israel disappeared tomorrow in a blaze of Islamic thermonuclear glory, that would be proof that God does not exist or that His will does not prevail?

How does you claim compare to the truth?

8 posted on 08/13/2009 10:10:56 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: topcat54

No biblical evidence that the modern secular state of Israel is the fulfillment of prophecy? It most certainly is the fulfillment of prophecy. Amos 9 just doesn’t cover the remnant, but covers Israel’s destruction, and restoration with the return of the Jews who were in exile. There was a man who goes to my church who argues that the Jews have no right to the nation of Israel. His logic rests on the idea that the Jews broke their covenant with God. I disagree. God is not going to break a promise, which to him is like a covenant, if they are going to fall away. That is incorrect.

Also consider…. From a purely scientific standpoint, there is no logical reason whatsoever to explain why the Jewish people exist today. None whatsoever! Satan most definitely knew the promise that the Jews were supposed to return to their land in the last days. So, he did everything in his power to try and stop that from happening, the most intense being his campaign to exterminate the Jews via the horrid political campaign that led to the holocaust. Against all odds, the Jews returned supernaturally to their land in 1948. This is the most interesting thing. The Jewish people did not just connect with each other somehow from around the world to make it happen. They were, as the Bible says, “planted” by God to return to Israel, which was nothing more than a desert at that time. Why would they come from being scattered among the nations to a desert if something wasn’t in the works? How is it not in perfect alignment with the parable of the fig tree spoken by Jesus which communicates the idea that the desert will bloom? That has happened. That has happened both spiritually, physically, and politically. Take for example, trade. Not only has the nation of Israel made the desert bloom, but they are also recognized by the international community as a source for farming and trading food. At my domestic job (I work in produce), we had red peppers come in that said “Made in Israel.” I also have COOL (Country of Origin Labeling) stickers, one of which I took and stuck within the mini- notebook I carry everywhere (for the purpose of taking notes) to serve as a reminder that prophecy is being fulfilled and that God’s will, will prevail.

Also consider….
Isaiah 66:8 (New International Version)
8 Who has ever heard of such a thing?
Who has ever seen such things?
Can a country be born in a day
or a nation be brought forth in a moment?
Yet no sooner is Zion in labor
than she gives birth to her children.

May 14th, 1948, the United Nations recognized Israel as a nation as also President Truman in the United States. The state of Israel was born in a day.

In the future, I hope to put together a post called Israel & Prophecy because everything rests on the nation of Israel. The covenant that is made between ISRAEL and the Antichrist is what will trigger the event known as the rapture.

Even though the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah, the story isn’t over regarding them. They will find out the hard way. They will go through a process in which the one they were tricked into thinking was their messiah (the anti-Christ) is out to kill them, and when Christ returns, they will see first hand, the one whom they rejected. Zechariah 12:10 speaks more of this.

As for Galatians 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3)

That is when one accept Christ and has the Holy Spirit within them. When Christ is in your heart, then all are one in the spirit, there are no physical divisions. Physical divisions are a product of the world, pure and simple.

I want to be careful saying this, but I think that Orthodox Jews are a bit behind in understanding the bigger picture relating to Israel and God’s promises within it. They still are bent on old traditions, even though Christ freed them from the burdens. As born-again believers we have a stake in the New Jerusalem chronicled in Revelation. But there are some things yet to be done in the Old Jerusalem. Israel’s coming back into existence was destined to occur at the time it did to let loose the moral conditions that would seep into the political environment, and in turn work to annihilate Israel once and for all.


9 posted on 08/15/2009 10:21:48 PM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
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To: topcat54

I’m saying that there is no reason to believe that Israel will disappear in a blaze of Islamic thermonuclear glory because He will keep his promise and protect them from allowing it to happen.

Jeremiah 31:35-36

35 This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the LORD Almighty is his name:

36 “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,”
declares the LORD,
“will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me.”

To summarize this, “As long as the sun shines and the moon gives her light, Israel will continue being a nation before God forever. There is nothing more that hints at the Jews being exiled a second time, or Israel being destroyed again, or Jerusalem being destroyed. It’s existence is just another proof that God exists. Against all odds, against all of the political pressure, Israel should have been wiped out decades, if not centuries ago.

If man can prevent, or try to ruin a promise made by God, then he tries to make God out to be a liar. Satan is behind this. Satan wants people to doubt God, and one way to place doubt in him is to move man to come up with a mistake, or something wrong to make the faith seem imperfect, and just as mediocre as the other ones that have been proven to be imperfect. Christ stands out above all other faiths. He rose from the grave. He is perfect, and He revealed to the prophets in he past the details which would lead to a specific, prophetic conclusion, some of which already happened, and some of which are about to soon happen.


10 posted on 08/15/2009 10:46:29 PM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Lee N. Field; Alex Murphy; raynearhood
I’m saying that there is no reason to believe that Israel will disappear in a blaze of Islamic thermonuclear glory because He will keep his promise and protect them from allowing it to happen.

But where is the unquestionable biblical evidence that the modern secular nation of Israel is that fulfillment of prophecy? From the standpoint of "making sense" there is none. One must first adopt certain presuppositions about "Israel" in order to follow your conclusions.

I will offer two reasons here for the defects in your claims and elaborate on them in another post:. 1) the "nation of Israel" as defined in Bible in no measurable way matches the modern secular state of Israel, 2) it ignores all that the NT teaches about God's holy nation.

11 posted on 08/16/2009 8:50:58 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
 May 14th, 1948, the United Nations recognized Israel as a nation as also President Truman in the United States. The state of Israel was born in a day.

 This is one of those bogus claims common among futurists that does not hold up to biblical or historical scrutiny.  The modern secular state of Israel was not literally "born in a day" as the Bible would use the phrase. Modern Israel was born out of pure human will over the course of many decades, beginning as early as the Balfor Declaration.  The political nations of the world birthed Israel. To quote the Isaiah 66 or other parts of the Bible in a simplistic fashion and apply it to current events makes no sense except to those who have already bought into the system.  

  This is one of those futurist claims that makes superficial sense, but cannot stand careful examination from God's Word.  

12 posted on 08/16/2009 10:29:57 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: topcat54; Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Lee N. Field; raynearhood
I’m saying that there is no reason to believe that Israel will disappear in a blaze of Islamic thermonuclear glory because He will keep his promise and protect them from allowing it to happen.

So, what happened to God's "promise to protect Israel" between 70AD and 1948AD?

13 posted on 08/16/2009 1:36:11 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("I always longed for repose and quiet" - John Calvin)
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To: Alex Murphy

bttt


14 posted on 08/16/2009 1:39:47 PM PDT by ConservativeMan55
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To: topcat54

You said.....

But where is the unquestionable biblical evidence that the modern secular nation of Israel is that fulfillment of prophecy? From the standpoint of “making sense” there is none.

Hmm... I think to come up with the idea that the modern state of Israel is not a fulfillment of Bible prophecy, there are some things that would have to be completely ignored, like....

Israel’s warning given by God that they were going to be scattered among the nations. (Ezekiel 6:8, 36:17-19)
That happened historically as I stated in my piece. But Ezekiel goes on to say....

Ezekiel 36:24
24 “ ‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.

That happened May 14th, 1948. A nation is born when it is sovereign. Even if it was a work in progress for years, it doesn’t matter; the end result does. They were never a nation since the Babylonians took over, and they did not have control over Jerusalem since Titus and his Roman Generals destroyed it in A.D. 70. But not only were they not in control of their own land, they endured hardships unlike any other people, which matches precisely what Ezekiel said in...

Ezekiel 36:20-21
20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the LORD’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ 21 I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

But aside from what I just stated, Jesus Christ himself implied Israel. When the disciples asked Him when would be the sign of his return, he talked about the fig tree. The fig tree he mentioned was OT code for Israel. There are too many matches. If there weren’t, he would have had to explain it. As people who knew the scriptures, they were supposed to have known.

You also have to understand that practicing Jews are still within an Old Testament mentality. Regardless of whether or not they are, when God makes a promise, he makes sure it’s lasting. The nation of Israel is, as you said, a secular nation, but one of the mysteries of Bible prophecy is that it will not remain a secular state forever. The heat is mounting up against it. From a nation that was once very Israel friendly, that is diminishing. Many Americans would rather have Israel fall off the face of the earth. It does show that God is in control and that just by their being alive, shows that God preserved them.

Israel coming back into their land is one of the most amazing things on the face of this earth. Since they came back, they have discovered many archaeological artifacts, remnants, as well as ancient manuscripts from the ancient Biblical era.

That is no accident. Also, when you consider the alignment of world events in light of Israel’s rebirth, that right there was a red flag as well.

When God says something, he says it in a broad, big picture perspective. When you look at the past details which spanned for thousands of years, and put them together now, then you can see the pieces begin to come together. Since a thousand years is like a day to the Lord (2 Peter 3:8), it is easy for us to say that this didn’t happen, or this won’t happen.

To illustrate my point, take Ezekiel 36:24-26

24 “ ‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

In the span of three verses it says what it says. But only verse 24 has been fulfilled, and verses 25-26 are yet to be fulfilled. God has a broad, big picture mentality when he revealed future events to the prophets in the past.


15 posted on 08/16/2009 1:54:09 PM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
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To: Alex Murphy

From A.D. 70 to 1948, God simply punished Israel, scattered the Jews among the nations, and the nations not wanting them, let them know they weren’t wanted. When God said enough is enough, he planted them back into their own land.

Now, God promised them their own land. He warned them that they would lose it if they kept doing the things that upset him, but promised them that he would plant them back into their land from among the nations and protect them. Just as the sun shines in the sky and the moon gives her light, the nation of Israel will remain where she’s at until the Lord comes. When Christ first came, he came to save us from our sins by offering Himself as a sacrifice. When he comes again, he will come in authority and have a political Kingdom for which he will rule the nations.

Micah 4:7
Isaiah 24:23
Psalm 2:9, mentioned again in Revelation 2:27 to fulfill prophecy.


16 posted on 08/16/2009 2:09:45 PM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
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To: topcat54; Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
But where is the unquestionable biblical evidence that the modern secular nation of Israel is that fulfillment of prophecy?

All evidence is questionable as you have shown. Still, it is good that the debate continues because the future of Israel will be a tie breaker on this issue. Keep watching.

I will offer two reasons here for the defects in your claims and elaborate on them in another post:. 1) the "nation of Israel" as defined in Bible in no measurable way matches the modern secular state of Israel, 2) it ignores all that the NT teaches about God's holy nation.

The NT teaches that blindness in part happens to Israel. This may mean that Israel cannot see Christ until the fullness of the gentiles comes. This is demonstrated by modern day Israel; evidence that it is the same Israel spoken of in Romans 11.

17 posted on 08/16/2009 4:49:21 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: Seven_0
 part happens to Israel. This may mean that Israel cannot see Christ until the fullness of the gentiles comes. This is demonstrated by modern day Israel; evidence that it is the same Israel spoken of in Romans 11. 

   Except that the modern secular state of Israel does not meet the biblical qualifications. It is a nation of unbelief that denies the covenant of God made with Abraham. It is the remnant that is being saved. God brings faith then physical restoration … the result of true repentance. Modern Israel exhibits none of that. Those who take 1948 as something other than a historical date are deluded in their view. It has no biblical support.  

18 posted on 08/16/2009 5:28:44 PM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Lee N. Field; raynearhood; topcat54
Now, God promised them their own land. He warned them that they would lose it if they kept doing the things that upset him, but promised them that he would plant them back into their land from among the nations and protect them. Just as the sun shines in the sky and the moon gives her light, the nation of Israel will remain where she’s at until the Lord comes.

So taking your interpretation at it's word, I have three questions:

1) What did Israel do just prior to 70AD that was so bad that God would scatter them for nearly two millennia....

2) What did Israel start doing differently just prior to 1948AD, that God should bring them back into the land and promise never to scatter them again?

Consider that 80% of Israel's population is Jewish, two-thirds of those are native-born, and less than 25% consider themselves religious or Orthodox in beliefs. Only 40% of the world's current Jewish population live inside Israel. Roughly the same number of Jews live in the United States, as live in Israel.

3) Why did God choose to leave so many Jews scattered in the world, even after reestablishing their homeland? What was special about the first half a million or so religious Jews (who were among those first "new Israelites" in 1948), that God relocated them to Israel to never lose their homeland - while God left all others to rot outside her borders?

19 posted on 08/16/2009 5:31:11 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("I always longed for repose and quiet" - John Calvin)
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To: topcat54
Except that the modern secular state of Israel does not meet the biblical qualifications. It is a nation of unbelief that denies the covenant of God made with Abraham.

I believe that Israel must remain in unbelief for now, in order the meet biblical qualifications.

20 posted on 08/16/2009 5:36:45 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: Seven_0; Alex Murphy; Lee N. Field; Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
I believe that Israel must remain in unbelief for now, in order the meet biblical qualifications.

But Israel has been in unbelief for 2000 years. They have forsaken the covenant of God. They have rejected the faith of Abraham. They have been cast off from corporate blessing.

This has nothing to do with the plot of ground in the Middle East that politicians have labeled "Israel". It has everything to do with faith and repentance, both of which are necessary for the true Israel to experience the blessing and restoration of God. Futurists don’t get it, since they seem to be more excited about a date (1948) than about the true condition of the people.

Modern Israel is not biblical Israel. Most futurists don't get it.

21 posted on 08/17/2009 7:55:28 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Alex Murphy; Lee N. Field; Seven_0; raynearhood
From A.D. 70 to 1948, God simply punished Israel, scattered the Jews among the nations, and the nations not wanting them, let them know they weren’t wanted. When God said enough is enough, he planted them back into their own land.

That is the contention of the futurists, but there is no evidence such is the case. Modern Israel is not biblical Israel. Even a superficial examination of the facts will demonstrate that. There has been no objective faith and repentance on the part of the people that would cause God to restore Israel as a nation at this time. Futurists are blinded to the conditions of biblical restoration. They want it to be true so they ignore the facts and just believe it to be true.

Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. (Matt. 21:43)
Sadly, that condition still exists. Israel will not be restored until they corporately cry out, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" (Matt. 23:39) and acknowedge the Messiah of Israel, Jesus Christ.
22 posted on 08/17/2009 8:16:30 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: topcat54
But Israel has been in unbelief for 2000 years. They have forsaken the covenant of God. They have rejected the faith of Abraham. They have been cast off from corporate blessing.

Christ's first instruction to His disciples was to go BUT to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. The historical record is that after King Solomon there was a 'civil' war and Israel became two houses. House of Israel and House of Judah. The House of Israel also called Ephraim were sent into captivity unto the Assyrian king as punishment. AND it was also said THEY, the children would not remember who they were. But they still would fulfill that promise to Abraham his seed would be as the stars of heaven and the sand of the sea. And as Moses penned each of the tribes were named not as a bunch but as individual tribes and what their 'future' would hold. Now how hard is it to understand that the promise was fulfilled to Abraham but a bunch of people that do NOT know who they are, are fulfilling the promise??????????? AND Rebeka was told when she was pregnant with twins Esau and Jacob what their 'collective' future would hold.

This has nothing to do with the plot of ground in the Middle East that politicians have labeled "Israel". It has everything to do with faith and repentance, both of which are necessary for the true Israel to experience the blessing and restoration of God. Futurists don’t get it, since they seem to be more excited about a date (1948) than about the true condition of the people. Modern Israel is not biblical Israel. Most futurists don't get it

That plot of ground is described as the Heavenly Father's most favorite place. And He had His prophets pen much about what would be taking place on that plot of ground up and until that 'day' when the Savior returns with a double edge sword for a harvest. And the fake Jesus shows up first.

23 posted on 08/17/2009 8:17:29 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Bama and Company are reenacting the Pharaoh as told by Moses in Genesis!!!!!)
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
Christ Himself said Take ye heed I have foretold you all things. This is found right in the midst of him telling his disciples what would be the signs of His return. Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 . You know those trumps, seals, and vials, of the Book of Revelation given to US by John when taken in Spirit to the Lord's ‘day’.

There are a few things found in those three accounts modern Christians tend to ignore or read over or just plain do not understand where it is they can find where Christ foretold US all things. And that would begin with ‘In the beginning’ book called Genesis.

24 posted on 08/17/2009 8:27:51 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Bama and Company are reenacting the Pharaoh as told by Moses in Genesis!!!!!)
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To: Just mythoughts; Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Alex Murphy; Lee N. Field; Seven_0; raynearhood
Christ's first instruction to His disciples was to go BUT to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

And how does this relate to the discussion at hand? The gospel is going out to all nations, including those of Israel after the flesh. "… and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (Acts 1:8)

That plot of ground is described as the Heavenly Father's most favorite place. And He had His prophets pen much about what would be taking place on that plot of ground up and until that 'day' when the Savior returns with a double edge sword for a harvest. And the fake Jesus shows up first.

Well, not exactly. The NT makes it clear that Abraham and his spiritual offspring are looking “a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them” (Heb. 11:16; cf. Gal. 3:28,29).

God true people already inhabit this heavenly city (Heb. 12:22). As I mentioned before, the error of futurism is due in no small part to the way they ignore or twist the NT commentary on the OT promises that God has made to His people. These are spiritual promises with a spiritual reality. The error of the rabbis and teacher in Jesus’ day was to be looking for a physical/fleshly fulfillment of promises. Many futurists today suffer from the same affliction.

25 posted on 08/17/2009 8:56:26 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Alex Murphy
Now, God promised them their own land.

Did He? Is that all He promised?

Again, if you ignore the NT you will come to faulty conclusions such as this.

Jesus made it clear that the “the meek shall inherit the earth” (Matt. 5:5). Jesus was speaking this to His fellow Jewish people. The inheritance of eternal life involved more than just a plot of ground in the Middle East.

And we are told by the apostle Paul regarding Abraham, “For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.” (Rom. 4:13). The promise to Abraham involved more than just a plot of ground in the Middle East. It involved the whole world. The true sons of Abraham are heirs of that promise. They are the meek ones.

By focusing on some human-conceived political state, the futurists miss the boat when it comes to Israel because they fail to discern who is the true Israel of God and what God has promised them.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2)

26 posted on 08/17/2009 9:08:10 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Lee N. Field; Alex Murphy; raynearhood
Biblical Israel vs. Modern Israel

Here are some characteristics of Biblical Israel that modern Israel does not share. The absence of these characteristics proves that modern Israel is in no sense related to Biblical Israel, therefore it cannot be a fulfillment of any biblical prophecies.

  1. Biblical Israel was established as part of the covenant made with Abraham and the promises made with the Seed, Jesus Christ. (Gen. 12:7; 13:15; 24:7; Gal. 3:16)
  2. Inclusion in Biblical Israel was by vow and obedience to God’s covenant, not strictly by lineage. (Gen. 17:23; Lev. 18:26; Rom. 2:28,29; 9:6,7)
  3. Biblical Israel was identified as a nation when they corporately vowed to abide by the law of God as given through Moses. (Exo. 19:8)
  4. Disobedience to the law of God was reason for individual excommunication from the nation of Israel, and temporal corporate punishment. (Exo. 12:15; Lev. 7:27; Lev. 18:29; Deut. 28:15)
  5. Biblical Israel was governed by God-ordained representatives in the church (the priesthood with respect to the ceremonial) and the state (elders, judges, and kings with respect to the civil) as a single and unique kingdom under God. (Lev. 13:2; Deut. 17:9; 19:12; 21:19)
  6. The judges of Biblical Israel was chosen directly by God. (Luke 22:30; James 1:1)
  7. Biblical Israel could have its nationhood status revoked through disobedience. (Matt. 21:43; John 11:48)
  8. The older covenant was never intended by God to be permanent, but was seen as giving way to a new covenant. (Jer. 31:31; Matt. 26:28; Heb. 8:13; 9:15; 12:24)
  9. For Biblical Israel the law was seen as a tutor to Christ, not as a means of salvation. (Matt. 23:23; Luke 24:44; Rom. 3:20; Gal. 3:24)
  10. Faith and repentance always preceded Biblical Israel’s physical restoration and blessing. (1 Kings 8:47,48; Ezra 1:5; Jer. 27:22)
  11. Restoration is clearly seen as an act of divine intervention, even by the nations. (Ezra 1:1; Ezekiel 37:4)
  12. Faithfulness to God in our day is measured by a proper relationship to the new covenant, not to rabbinic traditions. (Matt. 5:20; 16:6; Luke 1:72; Rom. 11:27; 2 Cor. 3:6)

27 posted on 08/17/2009 4:49:15 PM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: topcat54

First of all, if the modern, secular state of Israel is not a fulfillment of prophecy, then why and how is it alive today? The Jews faced fierce opposition when the established their state. There were too many powerful, Arab nations that didn’t want it to exist, and were willing to exterminate it once and for all. It didn’t happen. Add to that, when you hear the testimonies of Israelis who were in the 6 day war (the war which placed Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews) in 1967, there is no possible way any other nation would have been able to survive that had God not intervened. God allowed the modern state of Israel to serve as an indicator that started the timetable for the end times. In prophecy, you also study the alignments of things (like moral, spiritual, culture) and how simultaneously those things occur.

I don’t know if I agree with the claim that Israel denies the covenant of God made with Abraham. Most Israelis believe in God the Father, but they reject Jesus Christ as their redeemer.

Benjamin Netanyahu recently stated these lines in an address he made back in June.

“The connection of the Jewish People to the Land has been in existence for more than 3,500 years. Judea and Samaria, the places where our forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob walked, our forefathers David, Solomon, Isaiah and Jeremiah – this is not a foreign land, this is the Land of our Forefathers. ...

“The right to establish our sovereign state here, in the Land of Israel, arises from one simple fact: Eretz Israel is the birthplace of the Jewish People.

“As the first PM David Ben Gurion in the declaration of the State, the State of Israel was established here in Eretz Israel, where the People of Israel created the Book of Books, and gave it to the world.”

Benjamin Netanyahu does believe in God. I have seen him interviewed for years on Christian TV programs like Benny Hinn and John Hagee Today. In fact many of his political ambitions appear that they could very well be launching pads for the fulfillment of some of the more harsher prophecies relating to Israel.

Case in Point:
Netanyahu acknowledges the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
He wants to rebuild the temple.
He is seeking to attack Iran, which is a part of the Shanghai Pact with Russia and China, meaning that if Iran was attacked, then it would be regarded as an attack on Russia and China, both of which are implied in the Bible.

Now, as to Israel’s spiritual state:
We Christians see Christ as God because he is God. Jews don’t because, as I said in another post, they are still stuck within an Old Testament frame of mind. God brings physical restoration, then faith. You seem to have it the other way around. The physical restoration was a miracle. It was supernatural and out of the ordinary. It’s existence today is the same.

Now, the faith part comes during and after the Tribulation period. It is a period in which after the church is gone (Israel’s best friends) at the rapture, the modern secular state of Israel will sign a peace treaty with the Antichrist. If they are to come to faith first, then why would they be here to sign, much less trust the Antichrist?

Daniel, Revelation, Zechariah, and others go into this deeper. The Temple has to be rebuilt either during or just before the reign of the Antichrist. Your argument treats these events as though they either do not exist, or are unimportant. Then, mid-way through the tribulation, the Antichrist will sit in the Temple, causing the Abomination of Desolation. Then all of these invasions and Judgments come on the world. Meanwhile, as Jews realize that they were jipped, 144,000 JEWS come to Christ and tell the world that Jesus Christ, the true Messiah is the Son of God and is coming soon.

The nation of Israel is exactly where it is supposed to be. Once Christians are raptured up, Old Testament style events will occur. Remember, the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way, which in many ways resembles how it was in Old Testament days. The Jews will not have their buddies (the Christians) to support them. They will be all alone. Their lack of faith will prompt them to trust the antichrist. The antichrist will violate their trust. God will reign Judgments on the earth, and Israel won’t know what to do. A second Holocaust will emerge. It is by Christ’s intervention will they be able to see the true Messiah and the Prince of Peace. It is at that point, regarding Israel, Zechariah’s prophecy will be fulfilled.

Zechariah 12:10
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit [a] of grace and supplication. They will look on [b] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.


28 posted on 08/19/2009 3:07:22 PM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
Netanyahu...wants to rebuild the temple.

Just curious: On what evidence do you make such a bizarre assertion?

29 posted on 08/19/2009 3:44:38 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Lee N. Field; Alex Murphy; raynearhood
then why and how is it alive today?

As I pointed out, by pure political will. Israel would not exist except for the beneficence of other countries, esp, the (largely Christian) United States. It was born of political will, and thus it is maintained in the same fashion.

Contrast that with the undeniably miraculous way in which Biblical Israel during times of blessing was kept from her enemies (e.g., David vs. the Philistines).

Futurists just don't get it. While making a big deal of biblical prophecy, they fail to see the real power behind all prophetic fulfillment, God Almighty. Modern Israel just does not fit the bill.

Now, as to Israel’s spiritual state:

It is much the same as it was in AD70 when God removed the temple and withdrew His blessings from the people, establishing the new covenant nation (1 Peter 2:9). The remnant of Israel is being saved today as back then, mostly in the Diaspora.

144,000 JEWS come to Christ and tell the world that Jesus Christ, the true Messiah is the Son of God and is coming soon.

Another invention of futurism. The Bible says nothing about 144,000 Jewish evangelists doing is a few years what faithful Christian have been doing for 2000 years. That is not "literally" found in Scripture.

The nation of Israel is exactly where it is supposed to be. Once Christians are raptured up, Old Testament style events will occur.

Another fiction of futurism. God has His people, the Church, made up of Jews and gentiles, the sons of Abraham (Gal. 3:28,29). That is His kingdom which will continue to expand until He comes again to resurrection His own to eternal life and judges the nations who refused Him in this age. Israel needs to repent today before it is too late, when Christ appears to sit on the judgment throne (Matt. 25:31ff).

30 posted on 08/19/2009 4:00:03 PM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Lee N. Field; Alex Murphy; raynearhood
Benjamin Netanyahu does believe in God.

No doubt, but it is not the God of the Bible. It is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that get his attention.

When the Jews proclaimed their lineage, Jesus responded, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.  But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.  You do the deeds of your father." He then went on to declare exactly who was their father. It was not flattering, but it was true.

Abraham was a believer in Jesus Christ. "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." He was trinitarian just like you and me. I'm afraid Mr. Netanyahu does not share that view of God. His god is no different than the Muslim god or the Hindu god.

Sounds harsh, I know. But lineage does not save. "and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones."

We need to pray that God will continue to save those of the remnant that He has elected to eternal life. We need to be faithful in the gospel presentation to all people in all nations; Israel, Iran, China, whatever. No one should be comfortable with their view of God if it does not model the Father, Son and Holy Spirit of Scripture.

31 posted on 08/19/2009 7:31:14 PM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: Alex Murphy

Questions and Answers:

1) What did Israel do just prior to 70AD that was so bad that God would scatter them for nearly two millennia....

Israel as a nation lost its sovereignty to the Babylonians in 586 B.C., not 70 A.D. 70 A.D. is when the city of Jerusalem was destroyed by Titus and his Roman Generals. Israel (in 586 B.C.) offended God because of her idol worship, it’s embracing of Pagan practices, and the fact that they did not listen to the prophets when God warned them. They lost their freedom as a nation due to it. Henceforth why they were in exile under the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, and Romans. Now, this is interesting. Jesus prophesied that the Temple would be destroyed. In A.D. 33, he said....

Matthew 24:1-2 (NIV)
1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2”Do you see all these things?” he asked. “I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

That happened in 70 A.D. It doesn’t explain how and why. But like I said in another post, God’s vision of the future of Israel was so broad that one step could have taken hundreds of years before the step mentioned in the next verse, or even perhaps in the same verse took place. In our time period, we can say that Israel lost her sovereignty and she was scattered among many nations. It happened just as the Bible said it would. That’s all that really matters.

2) What did Israel start doing differently just prior to 1948AD, that God should bring them back into the land and promise never to scatter them again?

God showed his love and grace for them. After all, he still made them a promise. God does not go back on his promises. If he did, he would be a liar, and he would be insane. How? Because if he broke his covenant with the Jews because they did it to him, then he would not be God. He would in no way see it coming, and he would not be aware of their fallible nature. In reality, God is well aware of our fallible nature. He is not going to abandon a promise because the other end (a fallible one) is not going to honor their end of the deal. I have a man in my church who thinks that, and it bothers me because a promise is a promise. The establishment of the modern nation of Israel is in preparation for Daniel’s 70th week.

3) Why did God choose to leave so many Jews scattered in the world, even after reestablishing their homeland? What was special about the first half a million or so religious Jews (who were among those first “new Israelites” in 1948), that God relocated them to Israel to never lose their homeland - while God left all others to rot outside her borders?

A fire always begins with a spark. Once the fire spreads, it has the ability to consume materials on a relatively large and eventually massive scale. As such, this can be applied to the Jews.

Pertaining to the Jews, the year 1897 was the spark that led the new Zionist movement. On August 30, 1897, the first Zionist Congress was established. By 1900, 50,000 Jews began migrating to Israel. But it didn’t end there.

By...

1922: 84,000 began returning to Israel.
1931: 175,000

During the reign of the holocaust, most Jews were still dispersed among the many nations. After all, 6 million Jews were destroyed in the holocaust and still within the Europe nations for which Adolph Hitler was invading. By...

1948: 650,000 Jews were in Israel.
1952: 1,421,000
2001: 3.5 million’
2006: 5,313,800 (From the site you provided)

The nation of Israel is predominantly inhabited by the Jewish people. Some Jews decide not to live there. There is such thing as free will. Not every single solitary Jew is going to be “locked” within the borders of Israel, but it is a Jewish nation, a nation that was not around until the end times. Regardless of the details, God’s will still occurred. Also consider, the way things are going now. If America fell as a nation (a strong possibility), and Jews somehow survived, then I believe they would return to their homeland as well. The Jews are not restricted to be within the confines of the borders of Israel. The bible doesn’t say that. But he would plant his people back in their land (by placing the idea within their hearts), and they chose to migrate there. Choice still has to be regarded when it comes to God. God is not going to force them. Either way, the desert didn’t bloom in 1948 as it does today. That is in reference to the parable of the fig tree told by Jesus.

Either way you slice and dice it, I did not overwhelm and bombard my article with these marginal details. The point I made was the prediction and the end result. Aside from a brief description that may have led to the end result, that’s all that was needed. The point was made. God made a promise. God made good on that promise, and now that promise is becoming exactly what the Bible says it would in the last days. It’s as simple and straightforward as that.


32 posted on 08/20/2009 1:27:04 AM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Alex Murphy
Pertaining to the Jews, the year 1897 was the spark that led the new Zionist movement. On August 30, 1897, the first Zionist Congress was established. By 1900, 50,000 Jews began migrating to Israel. But it didn’t end there.

So I guess from these statistics and timeline covering many decades you are ready to concede that the notion of modern secular Israel being “born in a day” is futurist fiction. It was born of political will by the nations, not an identifiable miraculous single event.

Add to this, as I have said, that modern Israel is not a “nation” in the biblical sense. Biblical Israel was governed in toto by three officers, prophet, priest, and king (1 Kings 1:34). Prophets spoke the Word of God. Priests administered the sacraments of God. Kings ruled by the law of God. These offices in biblical Israel we meant to prefigure the three-fold office of Messiah. There is no three-fold office in modern, secular, “democratic” Israel.

Again, where in the Bible does God indicate that He would regather Israel to the land while still in abject unbelief and dead in spirit, still rejecting Him has the God of the covenant?

33 posted on 08/20/2009 7:02:13 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Alex Murphy
God made good on that promise, and now that promise is becoming exactly what the Bible says it would in the last days

I do not know what your definition of "exactly" is, but as I have pointed out in numerous posts the interpretation of these prophecies is shaded by the presuppositions of the interpreter. Even the use of a term like “the last days” does not always mean the same thing to different folks.

"God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;"

"Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour."

There is no "exact" fulfillment of any specific prophecy going on in the world today.

34 posted on 08/20/2009 9:18:33 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Alex Murphy
The nation of Israel is predominantly inhabited by the Jewish people.

How exactly do you define "Jewish people"? Are you using a humanist definition or a biblical one?

Is it anyone who is self-identified as a Jew? Is it someone who qualifies for the Israeli "law of return"? Does a Jew have to be physically descended from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob?

“For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.” (Rom. 2:28,29)

Using the apostle’s definition, how many in Israel qualify?

35 posted on 08/20/2009 9:51:24 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Alex Murphy
As long as the sun shines and the moon gives her light, Israel will continue being a nation before God forever.

How has Israel existed “as a nation forever” in your estimation? Further, we read:

"Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." (Gen. 17:8)

How would you say that this has been fulfilled, given that “Israel” (as you might define it) has only occupied the land for a relatively short period of time since Abraham?

36 posted on 08/20/2009 11:11:02 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: topcat54

Topcat’s Question:
So I guess from these statistics and timeline covering many decades you are ready to concede that the notion of modern secular Israel being “born in a day” is futurist fiction. It was born of political will by the nations, not an identifiable miraculous single event.

My Answer:
It’s not a concession. Israel was born in a day. On May 14th, 1948 it was recognized as a sovereign nation. It has been recognized since then as a sovereign nation. Only God could have created this. Israel’s birth was unique and it was unique because God was behind it. Here is another analogy pertaining to the duration between the spark (1897) and the fire (1948)to help support my point. When you apply for a job, you always write down the duration for which you worked, you do not include the amount of time for which you wanted to work at the place you worked at previously. Those details are irrelevant. In 1897 Theodore Herzl pretty much sparked the want. Then, throughout the years, world events escalated to a point where it became a need. The need, especially after the Holocaust campaign was seen as a vitality.

I think I understand more that you are looking for the re-emergence of the biblical Israel to return. While the nation returned as a political nation, Israel is not as secular as you think. Israel, in my opinion, is in a gridlock, meaning that the orthodox Jews, the secular Jews, and the awkward political relationship between the Jews and the Muslims are preventing the re-emergence of the theocratic state. Orthodox Jews have been in the process of re-creating the theocratic Israel explained in the Old Testament for years. I remember in either 2002 or 2003, they finally had a kosher red heifer. In 2004, the re-establishment of the Sanhedrin was re-inaugurated after 1,600 years of absence. What does that mean? It’s interesting, but based on Daniel 9:27, and Daniel 11:31, the antichrist will provide the political clearance for which the Israelis can become what you are expecting.... a theocratic state. When the church is gone at the rapture, theocratic Israel will emerge, and replace the church as the single point of hatred in the world. THEN, THE WORLD WILL HATE ISRAEL BECAUSE OF GOD. A deluded world under the spellbinding control of the Antichrist and the existence of Old Testament style Israel in the midst of this will cause the world to go haywire.

Topcat 54, the point I’m trying to make is that the nation of Israel had to be in existence politically for the end times. That has happened. The works for theocratic Israel have been in place now for some time. Again, Israel is not as secular as you think it is. In fact, in my video library I have a tape that shows the relics completely prepared for use at the event of the building of the Third Temple. They all openly admit that they are waiting for the political environment for which it can return.


37 posted on 08/21/2009 12:28:07 AM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
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To: topcat54

How has Israel existed “as a nation forever” in your estimation? Further, we read:

“Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.” (Gen. 17:8)

When you take everything into consideration, and after Israel sees their Messiah face to face (the one they pierced), they will accept Jesus Christ. They will move to theocratic, Old Testament style Israel under the authority of the Antichrist. But half way through his peace contract, he will stop the sacrifices, declare himself as God, and Israel and will go through hell. Once this hell begins, I think, hopelessness and fear will come over the Jews. They will think, “now what?” When the moment arrives where the world comes after Israel, all hope will then be lost. What will appear as a moment of certain death, Jesus Christ will intervene, personally and physically on a white horse, as described in the Bible. He will stop the armies once and for all, and as creator, will remove the concept of war in their hearts.

Isaiah 2:4
4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

God will keep his promises. Nothing can remove them. Even when man tries, he fails. Man is not above God, or his promises.


38 posted on 08/21/2009 12:39:49 AM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
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To: topcat54
Now what was that parable that Christ said to learn?
39 posted on 08/21/2009 12:45:22 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Bama and Company are reenacting the Pharaoh as told by Moses in Genesis!!!!!)
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To: topcat54

144,000 Claim:

Topcat: The Bible says nothing about 144,000 Jewish evangelists doing is a few years what faithful Christian have been doing for 2000 years. That is not “literally” found in Scripture.

My answer: Revelation 7:1-8 blows that claim right out of the water. They will be 12,000 a piece from the 12 tribes of Israel.

You said:
God has His people, the Church, made up of Jews and gentiles, the sons of Abraham (Gal. 3:28,29). That is His kingdom which will continue to expand until He comes again to resurrection His own to eternal life and judges the nations who refused Him in this age. Israel needs to repent today before it is too late, when Christ appears to sit on the judgment throne (Matt. 25:31ff).

Israel will repent when all hope is lost. The reign of the Antichrist is essential for Israel and the world, as people will be FORCED once and for all to make a choice. Either choose the Antichrist and live in the moment, the here and now, or choose Christ, die in the moment, and save your soul. Intense pressure moves people to take action, and if the concept of faith is dwindling, then sight will dominate, and if the antichrist can offer signs and wonders visually, then sight will be at war with faith. It will be one heck of a situation.


40 posted on 08/21/2009 12:49:59 AM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
Do you know who the anti-Christ is?
41 posted on 08/21/2009 1:11:02 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Bama and Company are reenacting the Pharaoh as told by Moses in Genesis!!!!!)
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To: Just mythoughts

Do I know who the Antichrist is? No. Since Satan does not know the day or the hour when Christ will call Christians home at the rapture, I believe he has on hand somebody prepared to rise to the challenge once its time for his rise and God permits the powerful delusion to take place.


42 posted on 08/21/2009 3:49:00 AM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
Do I know who the Antichrist is? No. Since Satan does not know the day or the hour when Christ will call Christians home at the rapture, I believe he has on hand somebody prepared to rise to the challenge once its time for his rise and God permits the powerful delusion to take place.

What is the delusion, and why does Paul say that God is going to send the delusion? Christ does not say one word about a rapture. If you really want to know who the play actor, instead of Jesus is, you can find out. Christ said Take ye heed, I have foretold you all things. We are suppose to know in advance who it is so we are not deceived.

43 posted on 08/21/2009 4:53:49 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Bama and Company are reenacting the Pharaoh as told by Moses in Genesis!!!!!)
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Alex Murphy
My answer: Revelation 7:1-8 blows that claim right out of the water. They will be 12,000 a piece from the 12 tribes of Israel.

Let's read the passage carefully and note it says NOTHING about 144,000 Jewish evangelists. That is a futurist fiction.

Israel will repent when all hope is lost.

The remnant of Israel is being saved today. It is the error of futurism to tie a massive conversion to some post-rapture "great tribulaiton".

44 posted on 08/21/2009 9:30:16 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
Topcat 54, the point I’m trying to make is that the nation of Israel had to be in existence politically for the end times.

That's futurist speculation encouraged by modern events. As I have made clear modern secular Israel is not BIblical Israel so there is no way to tie the modern state to Bible prophecy.

In fact the modern state could disapear tomoorow without impacting any specific prophecy.

45 posted on 08/21/2009 9:33:18 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Alex Murphy
When you take everything into consideration, ...

You did not answer my questions. How have the promises of God that the descendents would be "a nation forever" and that they would have "everlasting possession" of the land of Canaan been fulfilled in your estimation?

After all, Israel has not been in possession of the land but for a small portion of the time since Abraham. How can you explain God's promise of an "everlasting possession"?

Or do you conveniently need to ignore those passages?

The answer to that question will go a long way to showing how you have misinterpreted the prophecies that you claim are unfolding today with modern Israel.

One of the "Benefits of Knowing Bible Prophecy" is that we can tell when someone comes along and makes false claims about current events. Most of the claims I read about modern secular Israel since 1948 falls into that camp.

You say, "When you take everything into consideration", but you are ignoring all that the NT says about the people of God, the royal priesthood and true holy nation. You ignore that the NT explains who the true children of Abraham are, and it has nothing to do with physical lineage. You are ignoring that the NT identifies physical Jerusalem with the bondswoman Hagar, and that God's true people inhabit the Jerusalem which is above. You are ignoring all the passage I gave to you back in post 27. By focusing strictly on the OT you will always come to the wrong conclusions about God’s Holy People, just as the unbelieving Jews of Jesus’ day did. "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit." (Matt. 21:43)

46 posted on 08/21/2009 9:48:22 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: Just mythoughts

The delusion being sent and why it’s being sent is located in II Thessalonians 2:7-12.

7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

You’re right about the word rapture not being found in the Bible, but the concept is still relevant. Why? Because the word “rapture” comes from the Latin word rapturo, which is a translation of the Greek verb “caught up” that’s found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So again by technicality, even though the word rapture is not technically there as that word, its meaning still communicates the same, so it is safe to use that word.

Christ did foretell all things, but those who are not included in the event of the rapture will be left behind due to the fact that they willfully denied the truth and refused to be saved. We cannot know who the antichrist is because we (those who have accepted Christ as their Lord and personal Savior) are promised to be kept from the hour of trial that will come across the whole world (Rev. 3:10). The way the world is now, people, even Christians could fall victim to the Antichrist. Barack Obama’s support last year from evangelicals serves as a referendum, to me anyway, of this truth. People will fall for the Antichrist, including Christians. That is one of the reasons why Christ will take us away from the earth.

I think that God sends the delusion by simply giving Satan permission to act. Since Satan is a deceiver, and is the father of all lies, he can openly display all sorts of signs and wonders so sight (performing openly what looks like miracles, signs and wonders) will be in competition with faith.

For more information on the rapture, Please read my 2008 piece, “The Promise of the Rapture.”
http://makingsense.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talked&action=display&thread=119

In previous generations, people have thought the antichrist was waiting in the wings during their time. People thought Nero was the Antichrist. People thought that Hitler was the Antichrist. Everyone who has said, “the antichrist is....” has been wrong. I’m just going to leave it at that for now.


47 posted on 08/24/2009 1:16:48 AM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
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To: topcat54

Your Claim:
Let’s read the passage carefully and note it says NOTHING about 144,000 Jewish evangelists. That is a futurist fiction.

My Reply:
Then how else can you explain people coming to Christ during the Tribulation Hour? The only other thing I can think of is if people who are left behind go through their Christian relative’s belongings and read their books, watch their videos, and so on. Someone has to be here to actively pursue people who are on the earth who refuse to follow the Antichrist.

Aside from that, trained, Jewish ministers who are now Christians support my view.
The late Zola Levitt, Perry Stone, and many many others say that the 144,000 will evangelize during the tribulation.

You said:
It is the error of futurism to tie a massive conversion to some post-rapture “great tribulaiton”.

My Answer:
More people come to Christ when evil is most dominant. When times are good, I think less people come to Christ because people are too materialistic. Harsh experiences humble a person. That is just one explanation anyway.


48 posted on 08/24/2009 1:35:03 AM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
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To: topcat54

You Said:
That’s futurist speculation encouraged by modern events. As I have made clear modern secular Israel is not BIblical Israel so there is no way to tie the modern state to Bible prophecy.

In fact the modern state could disapear tomoorow without impacting any specific prophecy.

My Reply:
The events that led to the formation of the modern state of Israel, its challenges, and its existence today has too many instances in which its safety and security has existed against all odds. I have no doubt in my mind that God is behind its existence from 1948 to today. If you follow a natural frame of mind, the Jews should not exist today. If that happened, it would make God a liar, or not real. There is too much weight behind the existence of the Jews today. I have faith in God and have faith in his promises. That’s why I am so adamant about this.


49 posted on 08/24/2009 1:55:47 AM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
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To: Quix

ping!


50 posted on 08/24/2009 2:28:17 AM PDT by mitch5501 (Yeah,but is it shatterproof?)
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