Skip to comments.THE CHURCH FATHERS: A DOOR TO ROME (fundamentalist warns saying they sound too Catholic)
Posted on 08/30/2009 2:03:16 PM PDT by NYer
click here to read article
For ‘apostate’ discussion with our illustrious fundamentalist brethren.
But ... wait ... didn't he say we should not trust the Church Fathers?!
This is hysterical!
Why don’t we just change the name of this website to
I mean, whoever said Catholic-bashing is the last remaining prejudice that is still socially acceptable, knows what they’re talkin’ about.
But .... where does it say that in the Bible?
I served as lector today and the reading was 1 Thessalonians 2:1-13. In it, St. Paul notes: And for this reason we too give thanks to God unceasingly, that, in receiving the word of God from hearing us, you received not a human word but, as it truly is, the word of God, which is now at work in you who believe.
No mention of reading the Bible.
Where do I order the Jack Chick comic book “The Death Cookie”?
Oh, and who compiled the Bible?
About David Cloud
A Primer on David Cloud (Way of Life Literature Author and Missionary to Nepal)
Attack Dogs of Christendom
Written By David Cloud
Billy Graham's Disobedience to the Word of God
The DaVinci Delusion That Cannot Be Ignored
TOLKEIN AND THE LORD OF THE RINGS (David Cloud can't even spell TOLKIEN right when he attacks him!)
A Warning About Michael Pearl's No Greater Joy Ministry
Beware the VeggieTales! (David Cloud's diseased mind strikes again)
Published by "Way Of Life"
TONY BLAIR SAYS RELIGION MUST BE SAVED FROM EXTREMISM
Evangelicals have their own “fathers.”Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, etc.
Well, there was this guy named Paul that said it was superior but what did he know?
THE CHURCH FATHERS: A DOOR TO ROME (fundamentalist warns saying they sound too Catholic)
Were the Church Fathers Closer to Protestantism Than to Catholicism?
The Faith of Our Fathers
The Early Church Fathers
The Early Church Fathers on The Church (Catholic Caucus)
Early Church Fathers on (Oral) Tradition - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Apostolic Succession - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Salvation Outside the Church [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
The Early Church Fathers on Marys Perpetual Virginity - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on The Primacy of Peter/Rome (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
The Early Church Fathers on Hell - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Intercession of the Saints - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on The Real Presence - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Confession / Reconciliation - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Justification - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Contraception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Baptism - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on The Mother of God - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Quotes from the Early Church Fathers
Early Church Fathers - Worship on Sabbath or Sunday
The Early Church Fathers on the Assumption [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
Look to the Church Fathers to Shed Light on Modern Problems, Writes the Pope
On St. Clement of Rome -The Church Has a Sacramental, Not Political Structure (March 7, 2007)
Truly a Doctor of Unity (St. Ignatius of Antioch) (March 14, 2007)
St. Justin Martyr: He Considered Christianity the True Philosophy (March 21, 2007)
St. Irenaeus of Lyons: The First Great Theologian of the Church (March 28, 2007)
St. Clement of Alexandria: One of the Great Promoters of Dialogue Between Faith and Reason (April 18, 2007)
On Origen of Alexandria: He Was a True Teacher (April 25, 2007)
Origen: The Privileged Path to Knowing God Is Love
Great title, too “The Church Fathers: A Door to Rome”! And he did the honor of citing the Church Fathers ... lol!
“The term church fathers is a misnomer that was derived from the Catholic Churchs false doctrine of hierarchical church polity. These men were not fathers of the church in any scriptural sense and did not have any divine authority. They were merely church leaders from various places who have left a record of their faith in writing.”
YOU MEAN LIKE THE GUY WHO”S WRITING THIS ARTICLE?!?!
The mind/head boggles at the self-contradiction.
Christian theology wasnt formed fully ex nihilo. If you ignore post-Scriptural writings, you can toss out all the protestant theologians as well.
I agree. Errors have their source. It would be so nice to have my doctrine delivered to me on a platter by traditions. It takes a lot of work to go back to basics. I have to struggle with meaning a lot, but the end result is closer to what was intended than the reliance on traditions. There are so many errors even in non-religious society that just are accepted as truth because that’s what everyone says and what everyone seems to have always said. I see the same thing going on in religious traditions versus relying on the source.
Luther et al, did not know that in Jesus’ times, there was ascetics among the Jews,including of course John. . In fact so were many of the prophets lived ascetic lives. In fact, what was Jesus if not an. ascetic? Jesus and Francis would have gotten along just swell. Luther just studied the Jews he knew, assuming that all Jews, at all times, thought as they did.
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Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment
This whole article is ... well, I'm laughing so hard I think I pulled a muscle.
Yep, the last time I read something this funny it was in a comic book.
That makes 3 of us! BTW - tomorrow night's guest on The Journey Home is John Giles, a Former Pentecostal. Perhaps he converted after reading this article :-)
Mark Shea posted this article last week on his blog, Catholic and Enjoying it, and many of the posters there stated the same thing, i.e. that Pastor CLoud’s article is a testimony to the Catholic Church. Also, many posters there were former Protestants who while in graduate school studying the Bible or Theology were told be there professors to not read the Church Fathers so what happened many of them did and now are Catholic, LOL.
Really, reading this guy makes me not only laugh, but also, realize how Mormonism could only come out of American Protestantism as many of his arguments are the same as his.
Is he the guy that claims C.S. Lewis was a Satanist?
Edit to me:
Many of Mormonism’s argument are the same as his!
I was thinking, "At least, he had the good manners to capitalize the words Catholics capitalize, like "Mass," and "Eucharist."
I agree! I had the same intuition as I read through it. How many times (Scott Hahn come first to mind) have Protestant scholars studied these things in order to DISPROVE the authority of the Catholic Church, only to find themselves convinced and converted? "I see that God is no respecter of persons..."
Is it true that Fatso Teddie is going to be risen to sainthood. Saint Teddie of Chappaquiddick?
Since the Cardinal refused to let them use the cathedral for the funeral, and they had to run to the Jebbies, er . . . no.
Herein lies the cundundrom;
If the Church became apostate in the first century after Christ, while there were still those who knew and were instructed by Apostles who walked with Christ, then how does one TRUST the Bible as inerrant if the very people who they claim were in error decided which books were canonical? Either they were right, or the Bible is a collection of books put together by heretics. It can’t be both.........
“Is it true that Fatso Teddie is going to be risen to sainthood. Saint Teddie of Chappaquiddick?”
Insanity runs in your family, nu?
Heh, heh, this `Romanist Mary-worshipping mackerel-snapping papist drunk’ thinks Jack Chick is more than a burrito short of a combo platter.
Forty years ago I found his “Beast 666” comic tract to be an interesting depiction of the last days of the Book of Revelation, but he’s gone totally gonzo; he now blames the ever-so-evil Catholic Church for enabling Mohammed and for the rise of Islam!
“What a maroon!”
Ah, but taking the higher and more austere road, you manfully go straight to sola Scriptura, for the rigorous, disciplined, and painful (but certainly not ascetic, because ascetic's what them thar feelthy papists do) deduction of what God requires of you.
I learned last year that in some west African country the lay Dominicans give each other the title "Joyful." Their experience of Christianity and their expression of it is so much one of joy that they have taken "joy" for their name. And this is in an area where Christians are in the minority and are sometimes martyred.
Some non-Catholics have no idea of what being Catholic is really like. They talk about "tradition" as though it were a digest of painful and onerous burdens, crisply laid out like a Product Safety Data Sheet.
But that's not it at ALL! I LOVE Augustin of Hippo, for his frankness, for the beauty of his expression -- "Sero te amavi, pulchritudo tam antiqua et tam nova, sero te amavi!" --and because this beauty gives wings to the love of Jesus which Augustine and I share. I am happy to let him give voice to my love.
Aquinas and his teaching on ethics drips, like honey, sweet drops of joyful proclamation that God made us to find our happiness in Him, in His Love, in the good works to which He calls us and for which HE equips us.
There are plenty of jerks in the world, and the Church has her share. But the same source who informed the Scriptures and their interpretation also informs the Church to this day. He has not left us comfortless, and my loving friends, brothers and sisters in the Lord, are my partners as we look at Holy Writ and to God Himself to learn who He is and what He wills for us.
I am a member of a huge family, thousands of years old! This is not a matter of hacking through a thorny thicket of lies to get to the castle of truth. It is God welcoming us a members of His family of Love, as members, indeed, of his body of love, in which the joy of one member is shared by all.
So we confidently look to our older brothers and sisters for their wisdom and guidance, because we are not so afraid that God will abandon us, His family. We are not afraid.
16th-c. Oxford University Latin slang for pedant, whim, etc.; early sp. quonundrum
ty. I did spell check and it had no suggestions. I am normally an excellent speller, but that word has been used verbally only for me; I have not yet had to attempt a spelling of it LOL.
How does he account for all of the Orthodox churches which have bishops, believe in Apostolic succession, believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, have seven sacraments, and reject sola scriptura ... and in some cases, were out of contact with Rome -- to say nothing of Rome's inability to tell them what to believe -- almost from apostolic times?
I'm thinking of the Armenians and the Ethiopians, but even more of the "Mar Thoma" Christians in India, who hold that their communities were founded by the Apostle Thomas himself.
They aren't ultramontane Latin Rite Catholics, but definitely aren't Baptists, either.
Only reason I knew is I saw it in Donn Byrne's Destiny Bay on the printed page.
I like your post..can’t believe we have Catholic bashing on Freep. Give me a break!
But , I give up...what is ex nihilo....I never made it past the latin mass for Latin.ha.
Uh,....yeah. maybe they forgot.
out of nothing...
The Church preceded the Bible by at least 30 years. The Church determined the canon of the Bible. If it wasn’t for the Church, we wouldn’t have the Bible. Do they think it just dropped out of the sky? Remember the time in history, most people couldn’t read. Jesus didn’t come here to be crucified and resurrected so a book could be written, he came and founded a Church and its still here, the Catholic Church.
I love how our separated brethren love to quote St. Paul in their discussions with Catholics. Paul was trying to prevent the various congregations he addressed from falling into heresy. He was trying to keep them Catholic.
One of my favorites...
I think the media is awaiting his resurrection ;-)
We dont need anything beyond the Bible. — But .... where does it say that in the Bible?
“Well, the doctrine of sola Scriptura simply states that the Scriptures and the Scriptures alone are sufficient to function as the regula fide, the rule of faith, for the Church. All that one must believe to be a Christian is found in Scripture and in no other source. That which is not found in Scripture is not binding upon the Christian conscience. To be more specific, I provide the following definition. The Bible claims to be the sole and sufficient rule of faith for the Christian Church. The Scriptures are not in need of any supplement. Their authority comes from their nature as God-breathed revelation. Their authority is not dependent upon man, church or council. The Scriptures are self-consistent, self-interpreting and self-authenticating. The Christian Church looks to the Scriptures as the only and sufficient rule of faith and the Church is always subject to the Word and is constantly reformed thereby.
Now I want you to recognize that I am emphasizing that the doctrine of sola Scriptura is based upon the inspiration of Scripture. Now that term, inspiration, that you will find, for example, in II Timothy 3:16, is really not the best way of rendering the term. The Greek term, theopneustos, is best rendered as “God-breathed.” And in fact, in the New International Version, that is how it is rendered. In II Timothy 3:16 we read that “All Scripture is God-breathed and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction, for training in righteousness, in order that the man of God might be complete, fully equipped for every good work.” We learn from this that Scripture’s authority is God’s authority. You don’t have Scriptural authority over here then God’s authority over here. You don’t have different authorities in the Church. The authority of the Church is one: God’s authority. And when God speaks in Scripture that carries His authority.
Notice, for example, from the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 22 when he is talking with the Sadducees, who denied the resurrection, he says, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures, nor the power of God, for in the resurrection, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are as the angels in Heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead have you not read what God spoke to you, saying ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.’” Please notice that from the Lord Jesus’ perspective that which was found in Scripture was God speaking and he held those men responsible for what God had said to them, even though what was spoken had been written a thousand years earlier. Scripture is God speaking to man. It is theopneustos. God-breathed...’
But there is a flip side as well. If more is required, then...
“Well, the Roman Catholic position must demonstrate that that the “oral tradition” that is supposed to exist not only contains revelation from God that differs in content from what is found in the New Testament, but that this “oral tradition” is theopneustos, that is, God-breathed, inspired. Without such a demonstration, the denial of sola Scriptura is empty and meaningless.”
Church fathers, like Luther or Calvin or others I respect, can make serious errors. Their words are helpful at times, and harmful in others. Only scripture is “God-breathed”.
When it is an additional teaching, such as the assumption of Mary, I don’t see value in getting worked up. I don’t believe it, but I don’t care if others do.
When the teaching is contrary, such as Purgatory or Indulgences, then it is important to point out that conflict.
I’ve read some of the church fathers lately. I find value in some, but there is ample error mixed in - as can be found in Luther’s writings. They add perspective, but it is critical to compare their teachings to scripture.
Excellent post, Mr R. Thank you.