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THE CHURCH FATHERS: A DOOR TO ROME (fundamentalist warns saying they sound too Catholic)
Way of Life ^ | August 18, 2009

Posted on 08/30/2009 2:03:16 PM PDT by NYer

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1 posted on 08/30/2009 2:03:16 PM PDT by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

For ‘apostate’ discussion with our illustrious fundamentalist brethren.


2 posted on 08/30/2009 2:05:24 PM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: All
We know that there were many churches in existence in those early centuries that did not agree with Roman doctrine, because they were persecuted by the Romanists and are mentioned in the writings of the “church fathers.”

But ... wait ... didn't he say we should not trust the Church Fathers?!

3 posted on 08/30/2009 2:08:05 PM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

This is hysterical!


4 posted on 08/30/2009 2:11:42 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: NYer

Why don’t we just change the name of this website to

“FundamentalistRepublic.com”?

I mean, whoever said Catholic-bashing is the last remaining prejudice that is still socially acceptable, knows what they’re talkin’ about.


5 posted on 08/30/2009 2:14:08 PM PDT by elcid1970
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To: NYer
Ignatius (c. 50-110)
Ignatius was the bishop of Antioch in the early second century. He was arrested in about A.D. 110 and sent to Rome for trial and martyrdom.
...
2. He taught that all churches are a part of one universal church.


6 posted on 08/30/2009 2:17:48 PM PDT by thefrankbaum (Ad maiorem Dei gloriam)
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To: All
We don’t need anything beyond the Bible.

But .... where does it say that in the Bible?

I served as lector today and the reading was 1 Thessalonians 2:1-13. In it, St. Paul notes: And for this reason we too give thanks to God unceasingly, that, in receiving the word of God from hearing us, you received not a human word but, as it truly is, the word of God, which is now at work in you who believe.

No mention of reading the Bible.

7 posted on 08/30/2009 2:19:44 PM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

Where do I order the Jack Chick comic book “The Death Cookie”?
Oh, and who compiled the Bible?


8 posted on 08/30/2009 2:26:10 PM PDT by IrishCatholic (No local Communist or Socialist Party Chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing!)
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To: All; Larry Lucido
David Cloud PING!

Related threads:
About David Cloud
A Primer on David Cloud (Way of Life Literature Author and Missionary to Nepal)
Attack Dogs of Christendom
Written By David Cloud
Billy Graham's Disobedience to the Word of God
The DaVinci Delusion That Cannot Be Ignored
TOLKEIN AND THE LORD OF THE RINGS (David Cloud can't even spell TOLKIEN right when he attacks him!)
A Warning About Michael Pearl's No Greater Joy Ministry
Beware the VeggieTales! (David Cloud's diseased mind strikes again)
Published by "Way Of Life"
TONY BLAIR SAYS RELIGION MUST BE SAVED FROM EXTREMISM

9 posted on 08/30/2009 2:28:43 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (One man, alone! Betrayed by the country he loves, now its last hope in their final hour of need!)
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To: wagglebee

Evangelicals have their own “fathers.”Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, etc.


10 posted on 08/30/2009 2:29:42 PM PDT by RobbyS (ECCE HOMO!)
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Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: RobbyS; wagglebee
Jerome followed the false teaching of asceticism, believing the state of celibacy to be spiritually superior to that of marriage, and demanding that church leaders be unmarried.

Well, there was this guy named Paul that said it was superior but what did he know?

12 posted on 08/30/2009 2:39:17 PM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer
Stay tuned for additional "true" information.

THE CHURCH FATHERS: A DOOR TO ROME (fundamentalist warns saying they sound too Catholic)
Were the Church Fathers Closer to Protestantism Than to Catholicism?
The Faith of Our Fathers
The Early Church Fathers
The Early Church Fathers on The Church (Catholic Caucus)

Early Church Fathers on (Oral) Tradition - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Apostolic Succession - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Salvation Outside the Church [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
The Early Church Fathers on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on The Primacy of Peter/Rome (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)

The Early Church Fathers on Hell - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Intercession of the Saints - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on The Real Presence - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Confession / Reconciliation - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on Justification - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Contraception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Baptism - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on The Mother of God - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Quotes from the Early Church Fathers

Early Church Fathers - Worship on Sabbath or Sunday
The Early Church Fathers on the Assumption [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
Look to the Church Fathers to Shed Light on Modern Problems, Writes the Pope
On St. Clement of Rome -The Church Has a Sacramental, Not Political Structure (March 7, 2007)
Truly a Doctor of Unity (St. Ignatius of Antioch) (March 14, 2007)

St. Justin Martyr: He Considered Christianity the “True Philosophy” (March 21, 2007)
St. Irenaeus of Lyons: The First Great Theologian of the Church (March 28, 2007)
St. Clement of Alexandria: One of the Great Promoters of Dialogue Between Faith and Reason (April 18, 2007)
On Origen of Alexandria: He Was a True Teacher (April 25, 2007)
Origen: The Privileged Path to Knowing God Is Love

13 posted on 08/30/2009 2:39:35 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: Salvation

Great title, too “The Church Fathers: A Door to Rome”! And he did the honor of citing the Church Fathers ... lol!


14 posted on 08/30/2009 2:41:55 PM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

“The term “church fathers” is a misnomer that was derived from the Catholic Church’s false doctrine of hierarchical church polity. These men were not “fathers” of the church in any scriptural sense and did not have any divine authority. They were merely church leaders from various places who have left a record of their faith in writing.”

YOU MEAN LIKE THE GUY WHO”S WRITING THIS ARTICLE?!?!

The mind/head boggles at the self-contradiction.

Christian theology wasnt formed fully ex nihilo. If you ignore post-Scriptural writings, you can toss out all the protestant theologians as well.

JMHO.


15 posted on 08/30/2009 2:49:11 PM PDT by WOSG (OPERATION RESTORE AMERICAN FREEDOM - NOVEMBER, 2010 - DO YOUR PART!)
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To: NYer

I agree. Errors have their source. It would be so nice to have my doctrine delivered to me on a platter by traditions. It takes a lot of work to go back to basics. I have to struggle with meaning a lot, but the end result is closer to what was intended than the reliance on traditions. There are so many errors even in non-religious society that just are accepted as truth because that’s what everyone says and what everyone seems to have always said. I see the same thing going on in religious traditions versus relying on the source.


16 posted on 08/30/2009 2:49:58 PM PDT by WKTimpco (Traditional Values Counter Revolution)
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To: Alex Murphy
Actually, his article stands as tremendous witness to the Catholic Church. We'll probably see him soon on The Journey Home.
17 posted on 08/30/2009 2:52:16 PM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

Luther et al, did not know that in Jesus’ times, there was ascetics among the Jews,including of course John. . In fact so were many of the prophets lived ascetic lives. In fact, what was Jesus if not an. ascetic? Jesus and Francis would have gotten along just swell. Luther just studied the Jews he knew, assuming that all Jews, at all times, thought as they did.


18 posted on 08/30/2009 2:54:08 PM PDT by RobbyS (ECCE HOMO!)
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To: NYer; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment

Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”

19 posted on 08/30/2009 2:55:14 PM PDT by narses (http://www.theobamadisaster.com/)
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To: NYer
In fact, one of the Post-Nicene “fathers” is Leo the Great, the first Roman Catholic Pope!

This whole article is ... well, I'm laughing so hard I think I pulled a muscle.

20 posted on 08/30/2009 3:03:37 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary,conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg

Yep, the last time I read something this funny it was in a comic book.


21 posted on 08/30/2009 3:04:46 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Mad Dawg; wagglebee
This whole article is ... well, I'm laughing so hard I think I pulled a muscle.

That makes 3 of us! BTW - tomorrow night's guest on The Journey Home is John Giles, a Former Pentecostal. Perhaps he converted after reading this article :-)

22 posted on 08/30/2009 3:19:10 PM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

NYer:

Mark Shea posted this article last week on his blog, Catholic and Enjoying it, and many of the posters there stated the same thing, i.e. that Pastor CLoud’s article is a testimony to the Catholic Church. Also, many posters there were former Protestants who while in graduate school studying the Bible or Theology were told be there professors to not read the Church Fathers so what happened many of them did and now are Catholic, LOL.

Really, reading this guy makes me not only laugh, but also, realize how Mormonism could only come out of American Protestantism as many of his arguments are the same as his.


23 posted on 08/30/2009 3:31:35 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: Alex Murphy

Is he the guy that claims C.S. Lewis was a Satanist?


24 posted on 08/30/2009 3:32:06 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: CTrent1564

Edit to me:

Many of Mormonism’s argument are the same as his!

Regards


25 posted on 08/30/2009 3:32:28 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: NYer
"Great title, too “The Church Fathers: A Door to Rome”! And he did the honor of citing the Church Fathers ... lol!"

I was thinking, "At least, he had the good manners to capitalize the words Catholics capitalize, like "Mass," and "Eucharist."

26 posted on 08/30/2009 3:37:39 PM PDT by redhead (Demand that congress abide by the 10th Amendment. O-care is ILLEGAL.)
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To: NYer
"Actually, his article stands as tremendous witness to the Catholic Church. We'll probably see him soon on The Journey Home."

I agree! I had the same intuition as I read through it. How many times (Scott Hahn come first to mind) have Protestant scholars studied these things in order to DISPROVE the authority of the Catholic Church, only to find themselves convinced and converted? "I see that God is no respecter of persons..."

27 posted on 08/30/2009 3:40:49 PM PDT by redhead (Demand that congress abide by the 10th Amendment. O-care is ILLEGAL.)
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To: NYer

Is it true that Fatso Teddie is going to be risen to sainthood. Saint Teddie of Chappaquiddick?


28 posted on 08/30/2009 3:49:16 PM PDT by RoshYisrael
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To: RoshYisrael

Since the Cardinal refused to let them use the cathedral for the funeral, and they had to run to the Jebbies, er . . . no.


29 posted on 08/30/2009 3:53:17 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: NYer

Herein lies the cundundrom;

If the Church became apostate in the first century after Christ, while there were still those who knew and were instructed by Apostles who walked with Christ, then how does one TRUST the Bible as inerrant if the very people who they claim were in error decided which books were canonical? Either they were right, or the Bible is a collection of books put together by heretics. It can’t be both.........


30 posted on 08/30/2009 3:53:21 PM PDT by wombtotomb (Equal opportunity does NOT mean equal outcome!!)
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To: wombtotomb
cunundrom
31 posted on 08/30/2009 3:54:16 PM PDT by wombtotomb (Equal opportunity does NOT mean equal outcome!!)
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To: RoshYisrael

“Is it true that Fatso Teddie is going to be risen to sainthood. Saint Teddie of Chappaquiddick?”

Insanity runs in your family, nu?


32 posted on 08/30/2009 3:57:20 PM PDT by OpusatFR (Those embryos are little humans in progress. Using them for profit is slavery.)
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To: IrishCatholic

Heh, heh, this `Romanist Mary-worshipping mackerel-snapping papist drunk’ thinks Jack Chick is more than a burrito short of a combo platter.

Forty years ago I found his “Beast 666” comic tract to be an interesting depiction of the last days of the Book of Revelation, but he’s gone totally gonzo; he now blames the ever-so-evil Catholic Church for enabling Mohammed and for the rise of Islam!

“What a maroon!”


33 posted on 08/30/2009 4:10:28 PM PDT by elcid1970
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To: WKTimpco
It would be so nice to have my doctrine delivered to me on a platter by traditions.

Ah, but taking the higher and more austere road, you manfully go straight to sola Scriptura, for the rigorous, disciplined, and painful (but certainly not ascetic, because ascetic's what them thar feelthy papists do) deduction of what God requires of you.

I learned last year that in some west African country the lay Dominicans give each other the title "Joyful." Their experience of Christianity and their expression of it is so much one of joy that they have taken "joy" for their name. And this is in an area where Christians are in the minority and are sometimes martyred.

Some non-Catholics have no idea of what being Catholic is really like. They talk about "tradition" as though it were a digest of painful and onerous burdens, crisply laid out like a Product Safety Data Sheet.

But that's not it at ALL! I LOVE Augustin of Hippo, for his frankness, for the beauty of his expression -- "Sero te amavi, pulchritudo tam antiqua et tam nova, sero te amavi!" --and because this beauty gives wings to the love of Jesus which Augustine and I share. I am happy to let him give voice to my love.

Aquinas and his teaching on ethics drips, like honey, sweet drops of joyful proclamation that God made us to find our happiness in Him, in His Love, in the good works to which He calls us and for which HE equips us.

There are plenty of jerks in the world, and the Church has her share. But the same source who informed the Scriptures and their interpretation also informs the Church to this day. He has not left us comfortless, and my loving friends, brothers and sisters in the Lord, are my partners as we look at Holy Writ and to God Himself to learn who He is and what He wills for us.

I am a member of a huge family, thousands of years old! This is not a matter of hacking through a thorny thicket of lies to get to the castle of truth. It is God welcoming us a members of His family of Love, as members, indeed, of his body of love, in which the joy of one member is shared by all.

So we confidently look to our older brothers and sisters for their wisdom and guidance, because we are not so afraid that God will abandon us, His family. We are not afraid.

34 posted on 08/30/2009 4:11:45 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary,conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: RoshYisrael
Oh wow, I can't wait to be a part of his cult! The size 56 checked boxer shorts, the sacred glass of Bourbon, the sacred ritual dialogue:
People: How you doon, Uncle Ted?
Leader: Let's go out and find some chicks.
People: Try to stay on the road and out of the water, Uncle Ted.
Leader: Haw Haw. What does it matter? We've got the best lawyers.
35 posted on 08/30/2009 4:31:57 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary,conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: wombtotomb
"conundrum".

16th-c. Oxford University Latin slang for pedant, whim, etc.; early sp. quonundrum

36 posted on 08/30/2009 4:32:57 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother

ty. I did spell check and it had no suggestions. I am normally an excellent speller, but that word has been used verbally only for me; I have not yet had to attempt a spelling of it LOL.


37 posted on 08/30/2009 4:34:36 PM PDT by wombtotomb (Equal opportunity does NOT mean equal outcome!!)
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To: NYer
His argument that "the church fathers look Catholic because the wicked Romanists only allowed their Catholic writings to survive" is an amusing one.

How does he account for all of the Orthodox churches which have bishops, believe in Apostolic succession, believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, have seven sacraments, and reject sola scriptura ... and in some cases, were out of contact with Rome -- to say nothing of Rome's inability to tell them what to believe -- almost from apostolic times?

I'm thinking of the Armenians and the Ethiopians, but even more of the "Mar Thoma" Christians in India, who hold that their communities were founded by the Apostle Thomas himself.

They aren't ultramontane Latin Rite Catholics, but definitely aren't Baptists, either.

38 posted on 08/30/2009 4:39:56 PM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
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To: wombtotomb
It's because it's Latin. And it took awhile for everybody to figure out how to spell it, it's a nonsense word.

Only reason I knew is I saw it in Donn Byrne's Destiny Bay on the printed page.

39 posted on 08/30/2009 4:40:01 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: WOSG

I like your post..can’t believe we have Catholic bashing on Freep. Give me a break!

But , I give up...what is ex nihilo....I never made it past the latin mass for Latin.ha.


40 posted on 08/30/2009 4:48:34 PM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie (Pray for Israel! And Georgia ! And the Iranian people! and Honduras!)
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To: RobbyS

Uh,....yeah. maybe they forgot.


41 posted on 08/30/2009 4:49:16 PM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie (Pray for Israel! And Georgia ! And the Iranian people! and Honduras!)
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To: Recovering Ex-hippie
I give up...what is ex nihilo....

out of nothing...

42 posted on 08/30/2009 4:57:15 PM PDT by latina4dubya ( self-proclaimed tequila snob)
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To: NYer

The Church preceded the Bible by at least 30 years. The Church determined the canon of the Bible. If it wasn’t for the Church, we wouldn’t have the Bible. Do they think it just dropped out of the sky? Remember the time in history, most people couldn’t read. Jesus didn’t come here to be crucified and resurrected so a book could be written, he came and founded a Church and its still here, the Catholic Church.

I love how our separated brethren love to quote St. Paul in their discussions with Catholics. Paul was trying to prevent the various congregations he addressed from falling into heresy. He was trying to keep them Catholic.


43 posted on 08/30/2009 5:24:26 PM PDT by OriginalChristian (Can you feel Civil War II coming on...?)
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To: IrishCatholic

One of my favorites...


44 posted on 08/30/2009 5:24:50 PM PDT by OriginalChristian (Can you feel Civil War II coming on...?)
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To: RoshYisrael

I think the media is awaiting his resurrection ;-)


45 posted on 08/30/2009 5:26:51 PM PDT by OriginalChristian (Can you feel Civil War II coming on...?)
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To: NYer
Thank you for posting this. I have copied it and plan to do more research. Can you tell me what exactly in this article describing early church “fathers” beliefs is inaccurate? Are the dogmas quoted as coming from these men not stated correctly? It would be helpful to know where Roman Catholic extra-Biblical doctrine originated. I think this article, which seems well researched, is a very good starting point. I do not agree with you that these statements are somehow persecution of the Roman Catholic faith. It also seems unhelpful, from others’ posts, that non-Catholics are somehow okay to deride yet Catholics complain when they perceive they are being called wrong.
46 posted on 08/30/2009 5:29:13 PM PDT by boatbums (A man is no fool who gives up that which he cannot keep for that which he cannot lose.)
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To: NYer

We don’t need anything beyond the Bible. — But .... where does it say that in the Bible?

“Well, the doctrine of sola Scriptura simply states that the Scriptures and the Scriptures alone are sufficient to function as the regula fide, the rule of faith, for the Church. All that one must believe to be a Christian is found in Scripture and in no other source. That which is not found in Scripture is not binding upon the Christian conscience. To be more specific, I provide the following definition. The Bible claims to be the sole and sufficient rule of faith for the Christian Church. The Scriptures are not in need of any supplement. Their authority comes from their nature as God-breathed revelation. Their authority is not dependent upon man, church or council. The Scriptures are self-consistent, self-interpreting and self-authenticating. The Christian Church looks to the Scriptures as the only and sufficient rule of faith and the Church is always subject to the Word and is constantly reformed thereby.

Now I want you to recognize that I am emphasizing that the doctrine of sola Scriptura is based upon the inspiration of Scripture. Now that term, inspiration, that you will find, for example, in II Timothy 3:16, is really not the best way of rendering the term. The Greek term, theopneustos, is best rendered as “God-breathed.” And in fact, in the New International Version, that is how it is rendered. In II Timothy 3:16 we read that “All Scripture is God-breathed and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction, for training in righteousness, in order that the man of God might be complete, fully equipped for every good work.” We learn from this that Scripture’s authority is God’s authority. You don’t have Scriptural authority over here then God’s authority over here. You don’t have different authorities in the Church. The authority of the Church is one: God’s authority. And when God speaks in Scripture that carries His authority.

Notice, for example, from the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 22 when he is talking with the Sadducees, who denied the resurrection, he says, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures, nor the power of God, for in the resurrection, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are as the angels in Heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead have you not read what God spoke to you, saying ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.’” Please notice that from the Lord Jesus’ perspective that which was found in Scripture was God speaking and he held those men responsible for what God had said to them, even though what was spoken had been written a thousand years earlier. Scripture is God speaking to man. It is theopneustos. God-breathed...’

But there is a flip side as well. If more is required, then...

“Well, the Roman Catholic position must demonstrate that that the “oral tradition” that is supposed to exist not only contains revelation from God that differs in content from what is found in the New Testament, but that this “oral tradition” is theopneustos, that is, God-breathed, inspired. Without such a demonstration, the denial of sola Scriptura is empty and meaningless.”

Church fathers, like Luther or Calvin or others I respect, can make serious errors. Their words are helpful at times, and harmful in others. Only scripture is “God-breathed”.

When it is an additional teaching, such as the assumption of Mary, I don’t see value in getting worked up. I don’t believe it, but I don’t care if others do.

When the teaching is contrary, such as Purgatory or Indulgences, then it is important to point out that conflict.

I’ve read some of the church fathers lately. I find value in some, but there is ample error mixed in - as can be found in Luther’s writings. They add perspective, but it is critical to compare their teachings to scripture.


47 posted on 08/30/2009 5:29:25 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers

Excellent post, Mr R. Thank you.


48 posted on 08/30/2009 6:19:45 PM PDT by boatbums (A man is no fool who gives up that which he cannot keep for that which he cannot lose.)
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To: latina4dubya

thanks.


49 posted on 08/30/2009 6:23:25 PM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie (Pray for Israel! And Georgia ! And the Iranian people! and Honduras!)
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To: Mr Rogers
...the Catholic position must demonstrate that that the “oral tradition” that is supposed to exist not only contains revelation from God that differs in content from what is found in the New Testament...

Nope.

50 posted on 08/30/2009 6:31:47 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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