Skip to comments.THE CHURCH FATHERS: A DOOR TO ROME (fundamentalist warns saying they sound too Catholic)
Posted on 08/30/2009 2:03:16 PM PDT by NYer
click here to read article
Uh,....yeah. maybe they forgot.
out of nothing...
The Church preceded the Bible by at least 30 years. The Church determined the canon of the Bible. If it wasn’t for the Church, we wouldn’t have the Bible. Do they think it just dropped out of the sky? Remember the time in history, most people couldn’t read. Jesus didn’t come here to be crucified and resurrected so a book could be written, he came and founded a Church and its still here, the Catholic Church.
I love how our separated brethren love to quote St. Paul in their discussions with Catholics. Paul was trying to prevent the various congregations he addressed from falling into heresy. He was trying to keep them Catholic.
One of my favorites...
I think the media is awaiting his resurrection ;-)
We dont need anything beyond the Bible. — But .... where does it say that in the Bible?
“Well, the doctrine of sola Scriptura simply states that the Scriptures and the Scriptures alone are sufficient to function as the regula fide, the rule of faith, for the Church. All that one must believe to be a Christian is found in Scripture and in no other source. That which is not found in Scripture is not binding upon the Christian conscience. To be more specific, I provide the following definition. The Bible claims to be the sole and sufficient rule of faith for the Christian Church. The Scriptures are not in need of any supplement. Their authority comes from their nature as God-breathed revelation. Their authority is not dependent upon man, church or council. The Scriptures are self-consistent, self-interpreting and self-authenticating. The Christian Church looks to the Scriptures as the only and sufficient rule of faith and the Church is always subject to the Word and is constantly reformed thereby.
Now I want you to recognize that I am emphasizing that the doctrine of sola Scriptura is based upon the inspiration of Scripture. Now that term, inspiration, that you will find, for example, in II Timothy 3:16, is really not the best way of rendering the term. The Greek term, theopneustos, is best rendered as “God-breathed.” And in fact, in the New International Version, that is how it is rendered. In II Timothy 3:16 we read that “All Scripture is God-breathed and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction, for training in righteousness, in order that the man of God might be complete, fully equipped for every good work.” We learn from this that Scripture’s authority is God’s authority. You don’t have Scriptural authority over here then God’s authority over here. You don’t have different authorities in the Church. The authority of the Church is one: God’s authority. And when God speaks in Scripture that carries His authority.
Notice, for example, from the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 22 when he is talking with the Sadducees, who denied the resurrection, he says, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures, nor the power of God, for in the resurrection, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are as the angels in Heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead have you not read what God spoke to you, saying ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.’” Please notice that from the Lord Jesus’ perspective that which was found in Scripture was God speaking and he held those men responsible for what God had said to them, even though what was spoken had been written a thousand years earlier. Scripture is God speaking to man. It is theopneustos. God-breathed...’
But there is a flip side as well. If more is required, then...
“Well, the Roman Catholic position must demonstrate that that the “oral tradition” that is supposed to exist not only contains revelation from God that differs in content from what is found in the New Testament, but that this “oral tradition” is theopneustos, that is, God-breathed, inspired. Without such a demonstration, the denial of sola Scriptura is empty and meaningless.”
Church fathers, like Luther or Calvin or others I respect, can make serious errors. Their words are helpful at times, and harmful in others. Only scripture is “God-breathed”.
When it is an additional teaching, such as the assumption of Mary, I don’t see value in getting worked up. I don’t believe it, but I don’t care if others do.
When the teaching is contrary, such as Purgatory or Indulgences, then it is important to point out that conflict.
I’ve read some of the church fathers lately. I find value in some, but there is ample error mixed in - as can be found in Luther’s writings. They add perspective, but it is critical to compare their teachings to scripture.
Excellent post, Mr R. Thank you.
You’re quoting someone.
Why don’t you say whom you were quoting?
It excels in falsity and non-truthiness.
Funny how that happened.
It is by James White, but I’m not sure where I found it...have it as a word file on the computer now, but could probably find a link to the whole thing if you want to read it. I saved the parts I thought best.
If the oral tradition of Catholics results in doctrine (vs scripture), then Catholics need to show the oral tradition is as good as scripture for teaching, etc - IF they want others to take it seriously.
If we agree that scripture is God-breathed, but you claim oral tradition is also needed, then the ball is in your court - WHY do you believe that? What makes you think an unspecified oral tradition of uncertain origin is of comparable value to the God-breathed words of scripture?
Herein lies the cundundrom;
If the Church became apostate in the first century after Christ, while there were still those who knew and were instructed by Apostles who walked with Christ, then how does one TRUST the Bible as inerrant if the very people who they claim were in error decided which books were canonical? Either they were right, or the Bible is a collection of books put together by heretics. It cant be both.........
I believe most Protestants worry about what happened after the Church was accepted by the State. And most believe it was a very gradual process...I agree with Augustine on far more than I disagree.
As for the argument of canon, please read this thread I started a while back:
How We Got the New Testament - 2 1/2 Views (LONG!)
By 1000+ AD, Rome split from the Orthodox and went further and further astray.
Brace yourself, Mr R....countdown to ignition, 10..9..8..7..6 (maybe everyone already went to bed) - you may have a reprieve. ;)
We agree with the Orthodox far more than either we or the Orthodox agree with you, and both we and the Orthodox agree far more with the undivided church of the 5th century, or the 4th, or the 3rd ... than we do with you.
Incidentally, "tradition" simply means the understanding of the faith and of the scriptures which the church has continuously held and which has deepened over the years.
To reject tradition means that you have to assert, in effect, that the Holy Spirit guides you, but hasn't been guiding other Christians continuously over the past two millennia. If he did guide them, you should listen to them.
Y'all understand that instinctively already. That's why you quote Spurgeon and Calvin to one another. Once you do that, you're already admitting the utility of tradition. Now the only question becomes ... whose tradition.
But if sola scriptura were true, that wouldn't even be possible, would it? I mean it would be obvious to everyone that when Christ says "This is my body" he really means "This is merely a symbolic reminder of my body" and when Paul says "All that I have taught you, pass on to other faithful men who will be able to teach others" he really means "Write a book, make copies, and let everyone figure out what it means for himself."
As far as making Scripture say what we want it to say, compare that to dispensationalist Protestants who rule whole books of the Scriptures out-of-bounds as "not applying to us in the church age". Some of them will say flatly that nothing Christ says in the Gospels applies to Gentile Christians.
Good luck with that on the last day!