Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Infant Baptism
Catholic Exchange ^ | February 2, 2009 | Denise Bossert

Posted on 09/02/2009 10:13:08 AM PDT by NYer

I’ve spent most of my life conflicted over baptism, not about whether or not one should be baptized, but about the proper age for baptism.

My parents dedicated me when I was an infant. Back then, Dad pastored a Wesleyan church and the denomination believed that baptism was for those who had reached the age of accountability and could personally choose to be baptized. They believed that dedication is something parents do for their child and that baptism is something the individual chooses for himself. The denomination based its theology on the fact that the New Testament seemed to indicate that baptism was for adults who decided to follow Jesus Christ.

When I was about thirteen, my father was ordained as a Presbyterian minister. During the years preceding his ordination, he had revisited the question of infant baptism and found something interesting in a particular passage in the New Testament in which it states that entire households were baptized and not simply the adults (Acts 18:8). Dad showed the passage to my mother and indicated to her that they might be wrong in their rejection of infant baptism. From that point forward, they embraced infant baptism, but as an adult, I continued to flip flop in my beliefs.

After years of vacillation, I decided it didn’t really matter whether couples baptized or dedicated their babies. To each his own — that was my philosophy. For the most part, I thought everything was fine as long as the child eventually embraced the faith.

And then I began attending RCIA classes.

For me, the single most persuasive argument for infant baptism came from the Old Testament. Abraham obeyed God, and all infant males were circumcised on the eighth day — without their choosing it for themselves because that was how one was marked as being a member of the chosen people. When circumcision was instituted, there were many adult males who had never been circumcised. These grown men made up the majority of those circumcised — at first. I realized that this is how it would have been when Jesus instituted the sacrament of baptism. Initially, the majority of those to follow the Lord in this sacrament would have been adults – but once the sacrament was embraced by a people, the majority of those presented for baptism would be infants. It just made sense. Further study of Old Testament prefigurements (baby Moses floating on the Nile, Noah’s entire family saved in the flood, the saving of the first born male through the Passover lamb) seemed to create a beautiful case for infant baptism.

Finally, I thought about Jesus’ words in the Gospel of John (3:5), I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. And a passage in the first book of Peter tells us that, just as the eight (Noah and his family) were saved through water, so too we are saved through the waters of baptism (3:20-21).

It seemed that Jesus Christ wanted adults, children and babies of all ages to come to Him (with no age restriction), and that it was important to call the sacrament by the name Jesus gave it: Baptism. I thought I had more than enough to settle the question, but Our Lord has continued to underscore this teaching for me.

Denominations that hold to adult baptism do so because they believe an individual should choose for himself to follow Christ. So, the key point for some Protestants is that baptism should be meaningful to the one being baptized.

Here’s what I’ve learned. Every time a Catholic dips his fingers into the font and crosses himself, he remembers and embraces his baptismal vows for himself . Every time he enters the season of Lent and asks for sufficient grace to die to self, he embraces the vows of baptism for himself . Every time he picks up the cross — through suffering or death — he embraces the vows of baptism for himself . In fact, everything we do as Catholics from cradle to grave is done because we have been baptized into Christ Jesus.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Theology
KEYWORDS: baptism; catholic; infantbaptism; presbyterian; wesleyan
Denise Bossert has four children and is a member of Immaculate Heart of Mary in New Melle, Missouri. She is a Catholic freelance writer for diocesan newspapers, Canticle Magazine, and other Catholic venues. Her blog can be found at catholicbygrace.blogspot.com.
1 posted on 09/02/2009 10:13:09 AM PDT by NYer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 09/02/2009 10:13:53 AM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
CCC - 1128 This is the meaning of the Church's affirmation49 that the sacraments act ex opere operato (literally: "by the very fact of the action's being performed"), i.e., by virtue of the saving work of Christ, accomplished once for all. It follows that "the sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God."50 From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them.

49 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1608.
50 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III, 68,8.

3 posted on 09/02/2009 10:19:57 AM PDT by frogjerk (Obama Administration: Security thru Absurdity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

“Every time a Catholic dips his fingers into the font and crosses himself, he remembers and embraces his baptismal vows for himself”

Beautiful.


4 posted on 09/02/2009 10:22:47 AM PDT by kidd (Obama: The triumph of hope over evidence)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Matthew 19:13-15

Then were little children presented to him, that he should impose hands upon them and pray. And the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said to them: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such. And when he had imposed hands upon them, he departed from thence.

5 posted on 09/02/2009 10:25:09 AM PDT by frogjerk (Obama Administration: Security thru Absurdity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kidd
In fact, everything we do as Catholics from cradle to grave is done because we have been baptized into Christ Jesus.

Yep.

Nail. Head.

6 posted on 09/02/2009 10:25:13 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: NYer

I have a minister friend who has a biker church twice a month that I attend. He performed my wife and I’s wedding. I asked him about baptizing our son when he was an infant and he said it wasn’t biblical. I was baptized as an infant and I did a little investigating on the subject and found this;http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/catechism/web/cat-13a.html.
I don’t know if it changed my friends mind but I do know it got him to think about it.


7 posted on 09/02/2009 10:25:30 AM PDT by kickonly88 (I love fossil fuel!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kickonly88
Catholics take our Lord's words seriously, especially the following:

Gospel of John (3:5): I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

My stepfather has never been baptized. He is a good man from christian stock and my incessant prayer is that he will be baptized before he dies.

8 posted on 09/02/2009 10:34:51 AM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Could one of you that know the bible give me some examples of when Christ baptist with water. Thanks


9 posted on 09/02/2009 10:35:17 AM PDT by Taxbilly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Baptism has a twofold meaning: remission of sin and death and rebirth as a new creature. None of these, logically, require active participation of will. The idea that repentance is intrinsically connected to baptism is absurd. We cannot remit our sins, die and be reborn no matter how hard we try even as adults.


10 posted on 09/02/2009 10:36:28 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Taxbilly
Here's a helpful tract from a Protestant perspective: Why Does the Orthodox Presbyterian Church Baptize Infants?. The answer is mainly true for all churches that follow the Calvinistic Reformed/Presbyterian tradition.
11 posted on 09/02/2009 10:38:25 AM PDT by topcat54 ("If Israel is 'God's prophetic clock,' then dispensationalists do not know how to tell time.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: NYer

When you read verse 4 you see that Christ was not at all talking of baptism but of natural birth.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


12 posted on 09/02/2009 10:39:00 AM PDT by Taxbilly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Taxbilly

You mean Christ personally? He didn’t baptize anyone so far as we know. The Apostles did, on His command, — I am sure you are aware of the scripture references to that. At least two I can think of specifically mention water.


13 posted on 09/02/2009 10:39:20 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: topcat54
Here's a helpful tract from a Protestant perspective: Why Does the Orthodox Presbyterian Church Baptize Infants?. The answer is mainly true for all churches that follow the Calvinistic Reformed/Presbyterian tradition.

Thanks for the info but that has nothing to do with my question. Your reply is appreciated anyway :)

14 posted on 09/02/2009 10:42:13 AM PDT by Taxbilly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: annalex
You mean Christ personally? He didn’t baptize anyone so far as we know. The Apostles did, on His command, — I am sure you are aware of the scripture references to that. At least two I can think of specifically mention water.<

Thank you that answers my question, it appears that Christ saved no one while on earth.

John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But One is coming who is more powerful than I. I am not worthy to untie the strap of His sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

15 posted on 09/02/2009 10:48:40 AM PDT by Taxbilly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Taxbilly
Could one of you that know the bible give me some examples of when Christ baptist with water.

In John 1:32, when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.

We also see in John 3:3,5 that Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).

16 posted on 09/02/2009 10:49:36 AM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Catholics take our Lord's words seriously

Really? How about this:

Mat 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

Perhaps Jesus had something in mind? His reference is to a spritual leader being referred to as 'father' which is precisely what Catholics do.

His words in John 3:5 speak of a physical birth and a spiritual birth. The former is what all of us go through, the latter only what believers go through. Baptism in water is not a requirement for salvation, it is the first act of obedience. The context of the passage is given in the next:

Jhn 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Christ never baptised anyone, teaching His disciples to baptise as John had. It was a symbolic gesture to inform the Jews that they were distinguishing themselves from the old covenenat and becoming aligned with the new. In essence, dying to the world and becoming alive to God.

17 posted on 09/02/2009 10:55:26 AM PDT by rjsimmon (1-20-2013 The Tree of Liberty Thirsts)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Taxbilly

Oops, I’m sorry. I meant that comment for the OP.


18 posted on 09/02/2009 10:56:41 AM PDT by topcat54 ("If Israel is 'God's prophetic clock,' then dispensationalists do not know how to tell time.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: rjsimmon

So you don’t call your father or grandfather such, or even “poppy,” “pa,” or similar words? Those all have their origin in the Latin word “pater,” which means “father.”


19 posted on 09/02/2009 11:04:46 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Pyro7480
So you don’t call your father or grandfather such, or even “poppy,” “pa,” or similar words? Those all have their origin in the Latin word “pater,” which means “father.”

So many strawmen, so little time.

The CONTEXT is spritual leader. Christ is specifically refuting a Pharasitical habit of calling the leaders "Rabbi", "Father", "Teacher" in matters dealing with scriptural teaching and mentoring.

Is this a difficult concept for you?

20 posted on 09/02/2009 11:09:05 AM PDT by rjsimmon (1-20-2013 The Tree of Liberty Thirsts)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: rjsimmon
No, I actually didn't see your phrase "spiritual leader" before- my apologies. Still, if you're argument is legit, the early Christians must have strayed pretty early. For example,

"Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church." -St. Ignatius of Antioch, early 2nd century.

21 posted on 09/02/2009 11:17:17 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Pyro7480
No, I actually didn't see your phrase "spiritual leader" before- my apologies.

No problem, thanks for adjusting.

Still, if you're argument is legit, the early Christians must have strayed pretty early.

The early church strayed early and often. Recall that nearly all of Paul's epistles were to address issues with the churches that he established.

The problems with Jewish converts to have Greek converts circumcised is one such example. John spoke of the Gnostic heresy that was infiltrating the church also.

Calling someone by some moniker is not new, nor will it ever go away. I take no offense by it as I am sure Jesus probably did/does not either, His point is that the focus should be on God and not to honor men.

22 posted on 09/02/2009 11:24:17 AM PDT by rjsimmon (1-20-2013 The Tree of Liberty Thirsts)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: rjsimmon

Indeed, and this is symptomatic of the “Reformed” mentality- honors to people “detract” from honor to God. I say not necessarily.


23 posted on 09/02/2009 11:27:05 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: rjsimmon

Even St. Paul must have strayed, according to your interpretation. He referred to Timothy and others as his “children,” thereby tempting them to think of him as their spiritual father.

Did Paul err in writing his epistles this way?


24 posted on 09/02/2009 11:33:24 AM PDT by SoothingDave
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Please give me the scripture reference where an infant was baptised. There is none.
All examples of baptism in the Bible are adults after receiving Christ as their Savior.
Baptism does not save.


25 posted on 09/02/2009 11:40:10 AM PDT by Stark_GOP
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Stark_GOP

1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you


26 posted on 09/02/2009 11:56:38 AM PDT by SoothingDave
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Could one of you that know the bible give me some examples of when Christ baptist with water.

In John 1:32, when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.

We also see in John 3:3,5 that Jesus says, “Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” When Jesus said “water and the Spirit,” He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).

So Christ never baptized with water as prophesied by John the Baptist. If you read verse 4 of John 3 you will see that Christ was talking of natural birth.

John 4:13 Jesus said, "Everyone who drinks from this water will get thirsty again. 14 But whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty again--ever! In fact, the water I will give him will become a well of water springing up within him for eternal life."

I hear about eating the wafer and drinking the grape from the cup but never about drinking the water only sprinkling or dipping in the water, why is that? Does any Church practice that covenant?

27 posted on 09/02/2009 12:17:19 PM PDT by Taxbilly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Taxbilly

Jesus changed water into wine at Cana. Everyone knows that. ;-)


28 posted on 09/02/2009 12:23:55 PM PDT by SoothingDave
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: kickonly88
Some additional information for you:

Infant Baptism
Baptismal Complexes- The Sacrament of Baptism, Part 2
The Catechism of St. Thomas Aquinas BAPTISM
Beginning Catholic: The Sacrament of Baptism: Gateway to New Life [Ecumenical]

Converted Muslim Tells Story Behind Papal Baptism
What You [Catholics] Need to Know: Baptism [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 20: The Sacrament of Baptism
Baptism and the Usus Antiquior (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
Justified by Baptism (fallout from the Beckwith conversion grows)

The Million-Dollar Infant Baptism
Mystical Baptism and Limbo
The Early Church Fathers on Baptism - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
A Critique of a Critique (On Baptism by Immersion)
Catholics, Reformed Christian Churches sign document recognizing common baptism

29 posted on 09/02/2009 12:26:28 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: SoothingDave

“Corresponding to that” refers to Christ’s death and resurrection — THAT saves, not water.

Hoss


30 posted on 09/02/2009 12:27:09 PM PDT by HossB86
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Taxbilly

**I hear about eating the wafer and drinking the grape from the cup but never about drinking the water only sprinkling or dipping in the water, why is that? Does any Church practice that covenant?**

First correction — the consecrated bread is called a host.

Have you ever attended a Catholic Mass?

WATER is poured into the wine (historically it was used to cut the strongness of the wine) by the priest. Words said by the priest refer to uniting the blood and the wine with the spiritual/divine and physical/humanity of Christ.


31 posted on 09/02/2009 12:31:01 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: HossB86

I’m just quoting Scripture. I don’t deny that the Resurrection empowers the Baptism to be efficacious.

But to simply state, as the above poster does, that Baptism does not save is directly contradicted by Scripture.


32 posted on 09/02/2009 12:39:13 PM PDT by SoothingDave
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: SoothingDave

Actually, you’re misquoting scripture. Go back and read the whole passage before the verse you cherry pick; you can’t take the one verse and make it say what you want because you want it to say what you want.

Water baptism, in and of itself, cannot save. It’s not a contradiction. But you are misunderstanding it.

Hoss


33 posted on 09/02/2009 12:54:03 PM PDT by HossB86
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: HossB86

No one said Baptism “in and of itself” saves.

But Baptism does save. That’s what Scripture says and that’s what Jesus commanded of us.


34 posted on 09/02/2009 12:57:47 PM PDT by SoothingDave
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: SoothingDave

Nice try.

Baptism does not save. And scripture does not say that. You’ve cherry-picked one verse and taken it out of context. Try reading it all. Try taking it ALL in context.

Hoss


35 posted on 09/02/2009 1:03:21 PM PDT by HossB86
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: HossB86

If you can live with your interpretation, that’s fine. Just wanted to point it out to you.

You cant just wave your hands and say “context” to make hard parts disappear.


36 posted on 09/02/2009 1:05:00 PM PDT by SoothingDave
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: SoothingDave

No hard part about it.

Take care.


37 posted on 09/02/2009 1:16:05 PM PDT by HossB86
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
Have you ever attended a Catholic Mass? Yes.

WATER is poured into the wine (historically it was used to cut the strongness of the wine) by the priest. Words said by the priest refer to uniting the blood and the wine with the spiritual/divine and physical/humanity of Christ.

So this is what Christ was referring to in John 4:13? If so why is the grape needed or why didn't He mention it to the woman at the well?

You use the word (historically) is it still done today?

Thank you for putting up with my questions.

38 posted on 09/02/2009 2:03:27 PM PDT by Taxbilly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Taxbilly
it appears that Christ saved no one while on earth

No it defitely doesn't appear that way. Christ is the owner of His sacraments, so nothing prevents him from remitting sins and give a new birth directly and not through sacraments of the Church. Secondly, Christ can -- and does -- act through people He empowered, in this case, to baptize.

39 posted on 09/02/2009 2:04:20 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: HossB86; SoothingDave
What in context, do you think, alters that apparent meaning, that baptism indeed saves?

18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. 21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 22 Who is on the right hand of God, swallowing down death, that we might be made heirs of life everlasting: being gone into heaven, the angels and powers and virtues being made subject to him.

(1 Peter 3)


40 posted on 09/02/2009 2:08:31 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: NYer

mark


41 posted on 09/02/2009 2:49:41 PM PDT by Jaded (No act of kindness, no matter how small, ever goes unpunished. -HFG)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rjsimmon; Pyro7480
Perhaps Jesus had something in mind? His reference is to a spritual leader being referred to as 'father' which is precisely what Catholics do.

In the Bible the concept of fatherhood is not restricted to just our earthly fathers and God. It is used to refer to people other than biological or legal fathers, and is used as a sign of respect to those with whom we have a special relationship.

For example, Joseph tells his brothers of a special fatherly relationship God had given him with the king of Egypt: "So it was not you who sent me here, but God; and he has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house and ruler over all the land of Egypt" (Gen. 45:8).

Job indicates he played a fatherly role with the less fortunate: "I was a father to the poor, and I searched out the cause of him whom I did not know" (Job 29:16). And God himself declares that he will give a fatherly role to Eliakim, the steward of the house of David: "In that day I will call my servant Eliakim, the son of Hilkiah . . . and I will clothe him with [a] robe, and will bind [a] girdle on him, and will commit . . . authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah" (Is. 22:20–21).

This type of fatherhood not only applies to those who are wise counselors (like Joseph) or benefactors (like Job) or both (like Eliakim), it also applies to those who have a fatherly spiritual relationship with one. For example, Elisha cries, "My father, my father!" to Elijah as the latter is carried up to heaven in a whirlwind (2 Kgs. 2:12). Later, Elisha himself is called a father by the king of Israel (2 Kgs. 6:21).

42 posted on 09/02/2009 3:19:23 PM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Taxbilly
So Christ never baptized with water as prophesied by John the Baptist. If you read verse 4 of John 3 you will see that Christ was talking of natural birth.

From Scripture we know that the baptismal rite instituted by Christ is a sacramental rite; it is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace, a grace that sanctifies the soul and makes it pleasing to God (1 Pet. 3:21; 2 Pet. 1:4). We also read in John 3:5 and Mark 16:16 where Christ says "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God," and "he who believes and is baptized will be saved." Then we read in Acts 19:1-6 and 22:16; Romans 6:3-4, 11; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and 12:13; and Galatians 3:26-27, where Paul says baptism frees us from sin, makes us children of God, gives us new life, and incorporates us into the Body of Christ. In Titus 3:5, Paul again refers to baptism as the "washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit," for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God" (CCC 1215). In Colossians 2:11-12, Paul declares that baptism is "the circumcision of Christ": "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead."

43 posted on 09/02/2009 3:58:15 PM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Come on- John 3:5 does not speak to baptism. Mark 16:16 does not say that , "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but *whoever does not believe* will be condemned". And was never in Marks manuscript in the first place.

Acts 19

19:1

While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples

19:2

and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

19:3

So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied.

19:4

Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus."

19:5

On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

19:6

When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

If you read your reference You'll see that they had already received water baptism and Paul baptized them with the Holy Spirit.

Hey NYer thanks for your time God bless you.

44 posted on 09/02/2009 6:17:04 PM PDT by Taxbilly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: SoothingDave

Sorry but this verse states the exact opposite.
“not the putting away of the filth of the flesh”


45 posted on 09/03/2009 6:13:13 AM PDT by Stark_GOP
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: SoothingDave

Why would Paul say, “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:”(1 COR 1:17)?
If baptism saves you then why wouldn’t Paul baptise?

Because baptism doesn’t save. It is a public profession of faith.


46 posted on 09/03/2009 6:34:30 AM PDT by Stark_GOP
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson