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Bennett says take a 'leap of faith'
The Mormon Times ^ | Sept. 4, 2009 | Molly Farmer

Posted on 09/04/2009 3:44:02 PM PDT by Colofornian

The biggest problem with the Book of Mormon is that it exists, says Sen. Bob Bennett...The Republican senator from Utah is the author of "Leap of Faith," which was recently released by Deseret Book...Bennett didn't like the way the Book of Mormon was represented in media coverage leading up to the 2002 Winter Olympics...

"The tenor of the articles that kind of started me on this was that no one of any intelligence could believe the incredibly outlandish story about angels and gold plates, that any person with the slightest bit of education would reject this out of hand," he said...

Bennett approaches the subject of forgery as a debater, which he was in college, and analyzes both sides. He said he tried to be as objective as possible and attempted to "look at all the arguments, for and against, and test them for validity."...Bennett studied forgeries before he was a senator when he worked as Howard Hughes' public relations director.

Because every work of writing reveals something about the author, Bennett said it's possible to learn a lot from applying these tests to different texts.

...If you read 'Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling,' you get acquainted with Richard Bushman," he said.

[SNIP]

...It can be hard to get a grasp on the basic story of the scriptures as there are many tangents and retelling of events.

"The Book of Mormon is a history where the historian is constantly interrupting the plot to burst into vision and sermon," he said. "So when the sermon is over, you're 14 pages away from where the story stopped, and you can't remember where you were...I think it will find an audience among members of the church who find the Book of Mormon kind of confusing."

(Excerpt) Read more at mormontimes.com ...


TOPICS: History; Other Christian
KEYWORDS: 111th; antimormonthread; bennett; bobbennett; bookofmormon; bookreview; faith; lds; mormon; utah
The biggest problem with the Book of Mormon is that it exists, says Sen. Bob Bennett

(Hey, the Senator and I agree!!! I'd just been thinking earlier today: What a waste of millions & millions of man-hours...poor time stewardship)

From the article: Bennett didn't like the way the Book of Mormon was represented in media coverage: The tenor of the articles that kind of started me on this was that no one of any intelligence could believe the incredibly outlandish story about angels and gold plates, that any person with the slightest bit of education would reject this out of hand," he said...

(Well, the MSM occasionally gets things right)

Because every work of writing reveals something about the author, Bennett said it's possible to learn a lot from applying these tests to different texts.

Well, yes, you do learn a lot. But here's the problem -- and this story doesn't tell me if Bennett addressed one of the most basic problems in his "study" of the book: Simply put, thousands of edits have been made in the BoM through the years.

Now, Lds like to say most were minor edits & didn't significantly change the text, but #1, nobody ever says who made the changes or why -- and, more importantly, the overall impact of the edits is that the book comes across a lot more polished than when originally written. [We've heard of the phrase, "death by 1,000 cuts" -- this was an attempt to give "life" to a dead manuscript by literally 3,000 edits!]

Now why is that such an important issue? Because minus the edits, the pure beauty and majesty of King James English stands even more in stark contrast to the rough writing style of Joseph Smith! When you read the original Book of Mormon, it becomes quite obvious you have at least two authors -- somebody from the 17th century (King James committee) and somebody stumbling with grammar issues, errors of personalities, rambling run-on sentences, etc. from the 19th century (Smith). [Remember, people in the 1820s spoke closer to our vocab than to 1611 -- except in church settings where the KJV was read]

The article says the portended historical narrative is constantly interrupting the plot to burst into vision and sermon...So when the sermon is over, you're 14 pages away from where the story stopped, and you can't remember where you were...

Translation: The Book of Mormon rambles on in tangent fashion.

From the article: ...members of the church ...find the Book of Mormon kind of confusing."

(Yeah, we know. And after reading it, we can understand why)

1 posted on 09/04/2009 3:44:02 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Is Senator Bennett a mormon ???


2 posted on 09/04/2009 3:53:10 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana
Is Senator Bennett a mormon ???

Yes

3 posted on 09/04/2009 3:56:17 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
"The tenor of the articles that kind of started me on this was that no one of any intelligence could believe the incredibly outlandish story about angels and gold plates, that any person with the slightest bit of education would reject this out of hand," he said...

Do tell me how anyone of "intelligence" could believe the incredibly outlandish story that seven seals bearing the plagues of the world can be opened up to spread devastation prior to Christ's second coming...

Do tell me how anyone of "intelligence" could believe the incredibly outlandish story that an old man parted a large body of water and led a some several hundred thousand people across dry ground while they were being pursued by the Egyptian army...

Do tell me how anyone of "intelligence" could believe the incredibly outlandish story that a Man was executed by his own people, coming back to life three days later and disappearing into the sky...

Perhaps you can see where I am going with this. Perhaps the things of God don't exactly follow with the "intelligence" man THINKS is supreme because he/she thought it up on his/her own. I would certainly hope that the liberal left has taught us a lesson about someone believing they are more intelligent than you do because of your beliefs.
4 posted on 09/04/2009 4:03:35 PM PDT by derekr44
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To: Colofornian

Can’t we just go to the original source, those gold plates. Right?

( Or did the Scientologist abscond with them, hiding it Hughes Lear Jet on trips to Mexico to meet Romneyions? )


5 posted on 09/04/2009 4:09:25 PM PDT by Leisler
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To: derekr44

Do tell me what religion you are so I can understand why you ask these questions...


6 posted on 09/04/2009 4:10:05 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: derekr44

Do tell me what religion you are so I can understand why you ask these questions...


7 posted on 09/04/2009 4:10:05 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

Mormon royalty.

Born in Salt Lake City, Utah, Bennett is the son of Frances Marion Grant and the U.S. Senator Wallace Foster Bennett,[2] as well as the grandson of Heber J. Grant, the seventh president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Bennett attended high school at East High, and he earned his B.S. from the University of Utah in 1957 majoring in Political Science. He also served as the Student Body President at the University of Utah.

In 1962, Bennett married Joyce McKay, a granddaughter of David O. McKay, the ninth president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. This couple has six children: Julie, Robert, James, Wendy, Heather, and Heidi.


8 posted on 09/04/2009 4:11:44 PM PDT by Leisler
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To: Colofornian

MOrmans are very nice people. At least the one’s I have met.

The Book of Mormon speaks of great battles, blacks being cursed, (civil rights activists made them change that, some god that cow-tows to public opinion) and of swords and spears and elephants in the new world.

NOPE, no iron age society in all of the Americas. No Elephants and Poor Joseph Smith forgot that DeSoto is the one that brought the horses.

SO, if you want to believe this pseudo work and bet your eternity on it, well I’ve been to Salt Lake City and seen the women for myself. I certainly understand, but you’re making a very big and eternal mistake.

You aren’t God, you’re not going to be gods.

Get over it, get saved and repent of this foolishness.


9 posted on 09/04/2009 4:13:43 PM PDT by panzerkampfwagen
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To: Colofornian
"that any person with the slightest bit of education would reject this out of hand," he said... "

Or anyone who knew Joseph Smith would've rejected it. Oh wait, they did. The "witnesses" later rejected their support of Smith saying he was a prankster.

10 posted on 09/04/2009 4:21:30 PM PDT by TPOOH (I wish I could have been Jerry Reed.)
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To: Tennessee Nana

I am LDS, merely making a point that “human intelligence” does not equal God’s wisdom... not even close.

Countering a (any) religious document with scientific facts (whether they be the laws of physics or logical/grammatical structure, it is the same) is a moot point. Unless of course you are an atheist attempting to disprove the notion of a central creator.


11 posted on 09/04/2009 4:22:21 PM PDT by derekr44
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To: derekr44

well, for one, the gospels give several similar accounts - which is in itself incredible in an oral culture. Secondly - Christ fulfilled about 100 prophecies leading up to the crucifuxion....Mormonism story is based on one person, later shown to be a false prophet


12 posted on 09/04/2009 4:26:29 PM PDT by Revelation 911 (How many 100's of 1000's of our servicemen died so we would never bow to a king?" -freeper pnh102)
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To: Colofornian

KIND of confusing???


13 posted on 09/04/2009 4:27:48 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: TPOOH
The "witnesses" later rejected their support of Smith saying he was a prankster.

Moses wasn't a great speaker, so Aaron was called to support him.
Noah was considered a lunatic because of a boat.
Elisha was teased because he was bald.

There are a lot of stories like that in the Bible. People lose faith in man because of imperfections and apply it as generally as possible to prove their own superiority, as if this life was some sort of score-keeping game.
14 posted on 09/04/2009 4:34:35 PM PDT by derekr44
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To: Colofornian

“’Which leap the reader wants to make is, of course, up to the reader,’” Bennett said. “

Here’s my leap personal of faith:

The Articles of Faith
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith


15 posted on 09/04/2009 4:41:27 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: derekr44

God uses the foolish things to confound the wise.


16 posted on 09/04/2009 4:42:31 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: panzerkampfwagen

“I’ve been to Salt Lake City and seen the women for myself”

I’ve been to SLC recently and I haven’t a clue what on earth you are talking about.

I am a daughter of my Heavenly Father. Please don’t insult my Heavenly Father. Jesus died for me to save me from my sins so that I can return to live with my Heavenly Father forever. The Holy Ghost has sealed this in my heart.

Stop insulting my precious Savior, Jesus Christ, who died for me.

I am a Mormon and I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

www.mormon.org


17 posted on 09/04/2009 4:46:24 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: derekr44

CTR - We are a peculiar people.


18 posted on 09/04/2009 4:47:42 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: Revelation 911
Mormonism story is based on one person, later shown to be a false prophet.

This being based on human intelligence, amirite?

Being LDS, I've heard them all. Believe me.
19 posted on 09/04/2009 4:51:32 PM PDT by derekr44
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To: Saundra Duffy
God uses the foolish things to confound the wise.

And useful idiots are allowed lots of rope to perpetuate stupidity.

20 posted on 09/04/2009 4:51:33 PM PDT by Utah Binger (Mount Carmel Utah, Where Real Cowboys have a Kubota)
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To: Saundra Duffy

:)

It is a little funny sometimes... watching people get all frazzled, beating their chests as if their knowledge is more superior than yours.

Kinda reminds me of the left side of the aisle...


21 posted on 09/04/2009 4:54:06 PM PDT by derekr44
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To: Utah Binger
And useful idiots are allowed lots of rope to perpetuate stupidity.

Bears repeating.

22 posted on 09/04/2009 5:18:16 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Obama, the cow patty version of Midas. Everything he says is bull, everything he touches is crap.)
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To: derekr44; Saundra Duffy
Perhaps the things of God don't exactly follow with the "intelligence" man THINKS is supreme because he/she thought it up on his/her own. I would certainly hope that the liberal left has taught us a lesson about someone believing they are more intelligent than you do because of your beliefs.

Yes, I understand where you going with this...and we know all about Bible verses how God uses the foolish to confound the wise. But that doesn't mean we leave discernment at the door, does it?

Example: Let's just look at one book in the Book of Mormon, shall we? Now, one of the reasons I picked this book is because whoever its author is, he already concludes what Bennett said "Gentiles" would think of the book:
"The Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing." (Ether 12:23)

(Sources below content from Ether in the Book of Mormon itself, Colored Me Confused by Watchman Fellowship and this Web site: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/BoM/ether/abs_list.html)

THE JAREDITE BARGES
--Under God's instructions, the Jaredites build small, light barges to travel to the New World. 2:16 [But when the Lord gave instructions, he apparently forgot to mention the parts about ventilation & lights]
--"And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood." 2:20
--Ether 6:5 talks about a "furious wind" -- but had the wind really been "furious" -- it would have been a whole lot shorter than 344 days. (At this rate, they were only riding on a "furious wind" that took them a mere 10 miles per day). Plus, this is a long trip to be go on with holes in the bottom of the ship with little fresh water.
--The Jaredites are plunged into "the depths of the sea" but survive using a magic light given by Jesus 2:24-25
--3:1-6 God's magic stones were put into the barges, "and behold, they did give light unto the vessels." 6:2-3

THE MILLIONS OF FAMILY MEMBERS' WAR

Boasting an unproven steel industry that supposedly produced millions of swords -- none of which have ever been found -- millions of Jaredites kill each other in battle. Til it all comes down to just one man vs. one man: Coriantumr and Shiz. Coriantur cuts of the head of Shiz -- and after his head is off, Shiz then is "raised upon his hands and fell, and after that" -- with his head off -- "he...struggled for breath" and dies. 15:30-32

Now ya gotta remember all this occurred after the Lord gives a false prophesy in Ether 1:43 -- that it would become "a great nation. And there shall be none greater...upon all the face of the earth"...Sorry, but this was a destroyed people!!!

Besides, the Bible contains no similar records of entirely destroyed people. We don't have accounts of Jericho, Sodom, or Gomorrah. God prefers that they live in infamy instead of detailed, inside culture accounts.

OTHER ABSURDITIES -- from the Web site mentioned above

"Ye shall write them in a language that they cannot be read." God tells the brother of Jared to write his scriptures in a language that no one can read. (Good idea!) 3:22

Moroni translated the 24 plates that the people of Limri had found. And although he seems to remember some stuff about Adam, the tower of Babel, etc., he decided to leave that part out since you can read all about it in the Bible. 1:2-3

"I am fair, and I will dance before him, and I will please him.... I will give her if ye will bring unto me the head of my father the king." Gosh, I wonder where this came from? (Matthew 14:6-11) 8:10-12

THE FINGER OF GOD

"Because of thy faith thou hast seen ... Sawest thou more than this?" God let Jared see his finger. But God isn't sure what else he might have seen, so he asked, "You didn't see anything else, did you?" 3:9

"When God put forth his finger he could not hide it from the sight of the brother of Jared." 12:20

PHRASING in the BoM

"And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things..." Don't you just love the way people talk in the Book of Mormon? 12:6

(Yeah, like the phrase "it came to pass" 130 times in 32 pages!!!)

"And the scent thereof went forth upon the face of the land, even upon all the face of the land; wherefore the people became troubled by day and by night, because of the scent thereof." (IOW, It stank!) 14:23

Also, why would Jews eat swine in 9:18? (Jews don't eat pork)

23 posted on 09/04/2009 5:23:16 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: greyfoxx39
Careful my darling! People will bear testimony again and recite the articles of faith.

Bosom is burning.

24 posted on 09/04/2009 5:25:22 PM PDT by Utah Binger (Mount Carmel Utah, Where Real Cowboys have a Kubota)
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To: derekr44

none of which youve apparently heeded in your prideful attitude


25 posted on 09/04/2009 6:06:49 PM PDT by Revelation 911 (How many 100's of 1000's of our servicemen died so we would never bow to a king?" -freeper pnh102)
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To: Saundra Duffy; derekr44
Here’s my leap personal of faith: The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

Well, actually Lds believe in many -- as in multiple gods. But since that would have been kind of "off-putting" in 19th-century America, they didn't mention the "council of gods" referenced in the Pearl of Great Price -- nor does this article highlight the potential "millions" more "gods" who are "ex-mortals."

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

Well the flip side of this is then that the Mormon Jesus didn't die for your personal sins -- just the original sin of Adam.

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Let's break this one down into two parts: We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved...

Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball: Of course we need to understand terms. If by the word 'salvation' is meant the mere salvation or redemption from the grave, the 'grace of God' is sufficient... (Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 207)

IOW, Lds believe all will be resurrected because of the atonement...What they tend to "de-emphasize" in this, however, is Jesus' words in John 5:29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. IOW, they make it sound like it's so great that all will be "resurrected." But I have to remind Lds that "damnation" isn't a "degree of glory."

...by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel

Back to Kimball: But if the term 'salvation' means returning to the presence of God with eternal progression, eternal increase, and eventual godhood, for this one certainly must have the "grace of God," as it is generally defined, plus personal purity, overcoming of evil, and the good 'works' made so important in the exhortations of the Savior and his prophets and apostles. (Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 207-208)

IOW: You have to audition for godhood with a grand resume' of good works!

Another Lds "prophet," Joseph F. Smith said: "There is no hope of everlasting life but through obedience to the law..." Gospel Doctrine, p. 503 [Lds are trusting in their ability to obey the law to earn godhood]

He also said: "I Know that I can find [salvation] ONLY in obedience to the laws of God, in keeping the commandments, in performing works of righteousness, following the footsteps of our file leader, Jesus the Exemplar..." Gospel Doctrine, p. 262.

We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

OK, if John the apostle is still alive roaming the earth somewhere, as Mormons claim in their "scriptures," why isn't he listed as an Lds "general authority?" Why, therefore, has the Lds church stripped him of his apostolic authority?

We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

OK, well where are Mormon pastors? Plus, Deborah, Anna, Huldah, and Philip's daughters were all "prophetesses" in the Bible. Where do Mormons have them tucked away? Also, Lds claim Jesus had a dozen original disciples in the Middle East and another dozen in America. My math tells me that's 24. Why does the Lds Church have only a "Quorum of the 12" then? Shouldn't they have a "Quorum of the 24?"

Also, I can't find stake presidents, stakes, high councilors, unmarried 12 yo deacons, general authorities, presidents, or wards in the Bible. (I thought it was supposed to be a "restoration" of the original -- like Heb. 8:5 indicates)

We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

You have charismatic or pentecostal Mormons, Saundra? Where?

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly;

(Yeah, we know...that's why Joseph "re-worded" many parts of it & you offer that re-worded version everywhere in bookstores, from the SLC home office, etc....No? You don't? Didn't God tell Joseph several times in Doctrine & Covenants to "finish the translation?" Was Joseph disobedient? Then isn't the JST published & distributed widely by the Lds church?)

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

Except for one thing: You're always supposed to judge alleged "latter" revelations by the former ones. (That's what made the Bereans "noble" in Acts 17:11). Instead, Lds judge the former revelations by the "latter" ones -- and therefore flunk both exegesis and hermeneutics.

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent;

(Yeah, we know...supposedly, Jesus will come back in Missouri, which is where Mormons also say the original Genesis garden is stashed away -- and he'll come back on a piece of property where Smith prophesied Temple Lot would be built -- only Lds don't even own the land!)

...that Christ will reign personally upon the earth;

(Yeah, we know, and Lds apostle Bruce R. McConkie says in "Mormon Doctrine" that the Mormon Jesus will re-institute polygamy when he returns).

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Well, as Lds "allow all men...[to] worship how...or what they may" they've added "revelations" reflecting what their god supposedly thinks of our worship. In the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith History, vv. 18-20, Smith calls ALL Christian creeds an "abomination" to their god and labels ALL Christian professors "corrupt" and says NOBODY should join them 'cause we're supposedly ALL "wrong." THEN Lds send out 60,000 missionaries to tell the world door-to-door that we're all supposedly "apostates" -- every single Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox believer!

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

Yes, to the point Smith catered to slavery in D&C 134:12 -- and then "no" to the point that they carried on polygamy for 75 years. (BTW, if a Mormon takes D&C 134:12 literally, it means that they can't share even their truncated Mormon "gospel" version with a sex slave today that's in bondage to the worldwide trafficking industry)

We believe in being honest...

(Except conveniently covering up the "rest of the story" that I just had to "fill in" to render Lds belief system a wee bit more accurate)

[Oh, I left off one of the articles of faith, but I'll cover that in my next post]

26 posted on 09/04/2009 6:17:59 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Saundra Duffy

SD,

You dont know what you are talking about...

You are not going to “return to live with (your) heavenly father”

You originated here on Earth..

Nobody is going to return to anywhere...we did not come fronm any heavenly father... or any planet or any god or any anywhere...

Since you mentioned a jesus let’s seee what the Jesus of the Bible has to say...

Jesus said only He came down from Heaven...only He goes up...only He came down...up to the time He is speaking in this verse...

“No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven John 3:13

Guess what...the Jesus of the Bible knows what he is talking about...

it pays to listen to Him and not that “another jesus” mentioned in the book of mormon


27 posted on 09/04/2009 6:19:10 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Saundra Duffy; derekr44
We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

People first need to understand that Lds tend to see these things as a check-off list of things they need to do. It's a spiritual "to-do" checklist.

Let's break down those "four things" + a fifth they add -- endure to the end:
#1 Mormons already conclude the Holy Ghost is a gift.
#2 The Bible also says faith/eternal life is a gift (1 Cor. 12:3; John 6:28-29; Rom. 6:23; Eph. 2:5, 8-9). So, no Boy Scout brownie points for either receiving faith or receiving the Holy Ghost.
#3 Even in the Biblical passages about baptism, the emphasis is on God mercy's (Titus 3:5) and Jesus dying & rising again (Rom. 6:1-4) -- not upon some ritualistic checklist "I did this" kind of thing. People are passive in the act of baptism -- it's something done upon them -- not a ritualistic "good work"...I mean, it's not like baptism is swimming to Catalina Island off of the CA coast!

So, so far, the Mormons are 0-for-3 in making any of these about "good works." That's leaves two more:

Repentance. Literal meaning: u-turn. Who does the u-turn? We do. The key question, though, is "Who gets the credit when we do a u-turn?" If you're driving down a road & a man in the orange vest stops your vehicle, warns you that the road ahead is washed out, and advises that you do a u-turn, are you going to take credit for your wisdom in turning around? Jesus said that when the Holy Ghost would come, "he will repove the world of sin" -- meaning He would convict the world of that sin. Some convicts get the message & "u-turn" away from the prison system; others return; others never leave.

On top of that it's a Christian's "born-again" "in the Spirit" experience that empowers him or her to not return to that life of bondage.

So, now we're down to 0-for-4 to Mormons trying to vie for religious glory. What's left? Endure to the end.

Three verses in the gospels mention Jesus linking being saved with enduring to the end (Mt. 10:22; 24:13; Mk 13:13). Is that something we do? (You bet!)

The Bible gives us Old Testament real-life parallels as to what such enduring meant:
We wander through a wilderness after our bondage experience like the Israelites of old. Those who endured reached the promised land; but even "good works" Moses didn't reach the promised land. Why? Because he wanted to do something his way & stuck the rock twice in the desert.

How about Noah & his family? Works? Ya better believe it -- that ark was quite an undertaking! But the purpose of the work (like ministry today) is to save as many creatures as possible. I'm sure even Noah wasn't motivated by, "I'm going to save myself. I'm going to save myself." He was motivated by applying God's route of escape to his family & any other hitchhikers. Once on board, had they not waited out the flood receding -- if one of their party had tried to prematurely swim to a non-existent "shore," he would have drowned. While it's true Noah & his family members were quite hard at work during the time on board feeding the menagerie on their hand, that hardly qualifies as "good works" that saved themselves. The design of the ark wasn't of themselves. The idea for building it wasn't. And once on board, it was actually a period of waiting it out vs. trying to make something "salvific" happen by swimming to a non-existent shore. IOW, they didn't have anything to do with the water receding. All that was God's doing. All they had to do was to feed the "pets" & ride the waves.

Ultimately, in the Christian life, it's the "longsuffering" of Jesus that "is salvation" (2 Peter 3:15) -- not the longsuffering of Noah or any Mormon.

28 posted on 09/04/2009 6:25:26 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

***The article says the portended historical narrative is constantly interrupting the plot to burst into vision and sermon...So when the sermon is over, you’re 14 pages away from where the story stopped, and you can’t remember where you were...***

Enough to give one an upset stomach, or burning in the belly!;-)


29 posted on 09/04/2009 6:26:32 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Tar and feather the sons of b!#ches! Ride them out of town on a rail!)
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To: Saundra Duffy

SD,

You claim you are a “daughter of (your) heavenly father”

What about the males among the mormons ???

Are they just sons ???

Its not an insult to that so called heavenly father of yours to say “he” is bunk...

What is insulting is fior you to suggest that as a woman i have less than a man as far as God is concerned and that I am bound forever to be merely a sex slave of some slobbering old lustfulled jerk..

and to have babies forever...Why would Jesus force me to have nothing that he died to give me ???

That’s not only unBiblical but an insult to women who Jesus died for..the very Jesus you claim to “love”...

The Jesus odf the Bibhle loves me and died for me so that I for the first time could enter His heaven..

I’ve never been there but I am looking forward to going ...

When Jesus who is God, died on the cross he paid for my sins with His shed Blood..the Bloods of the Lamb of God...

It was a FINISHED work...Jesus said so and as God, Jesus does not lie...

Jeus saqid it and it is so whether or not YOU choose to believe it..

Those male mormons with their so called “priesthood holding worthy” elements that hold no more power than a feather and not enough to blow that same feather a foot, are npot going to rule any planets...

IF IF IF they admit their sins andf asdk God to for give them and askk jesus to save them,

THEN they will get to go to Heaven where i will be and to bow down and worship Jesus who will be sitting on the right hand of God the Father....FOREVER...

Now stop this silly nonsense...Its insulting to God...

you know the truth ...youve been told repeatedly...

Cause i am not going to stop telling the truth about Jesus...

BTW ya notice i did not mention that charlatan pig Joey Smith ???

He’s already got his...and it wasnt to go to heaven...

He is not sitting at any gate or other...

he never had any keys...There were no cars back in 1844...


30 posted on 09/04/2009 6:37:40 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: derekr44

I am LDS, merely making a point that “human intelligence” does not equal God’s wisdom... not even close
_______________________________________________________

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

What about that pesky thing about Joey Smith and his so called “human intelligence” ???


31 posted on 09/04/2009 6:48:36 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana; derekr44
What about that pesky thing about Joey Smith and his so called “human intelligence” ???

Good question. Joseph Smith bragged about his supposed high intelligence:
I combat the errors of ages;
I meet the violence of mobs;
I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority;
I cut the Gordian knot of powers;
and I solve mathematical problems of Universities:
WITH TRUTH, diamond truth, and God is my 'right hand man.'...
(Times and Seasons 4, Nov. 1, 1843]

32 posted on 09/04/2009 7:12:53 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Tennessee Nana; All
Hum...

Trying to remember the dates. Could be a post SPAM LDS retread. May well not be.

Same difference, a new pinata...

33 posted on 09/04/2009 7:16:00 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (There's something socialist in the neighborhood, who ya gonna call? MITTBUSTERS!)
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To: derekr44

You must not be familiar with the writings of Paul...


34 posted on 09/04/2009 7:17:18 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (There's something socialist in the neighborhood, who ya gonna call? MITTBUSTERS!)
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To: Colofornian

‘God is my ‘right hand man.’...
______________________________________________

Dontcha just love that comment of Joey Smith’s...

So reassuring to know that Joey is in control and running everything...

/s


35 posted on 09/04/2009 7:34:08 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana
Well god's just gotta know his place.

After all he is just one of the guys..

36 posted on 09/04/2009 7:43:28 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (There's something socialist in the neighborhood, who ya gonna call? MITTBUSTERS!)
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To: ejonesie22

Well, after all, He IS Obama’s partner when it comes to life and death.

*Rolling Eyes*


37 posted on 09/04/2009 10:26:25 PM PDT by Politicalmom (Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government. -- James Madison)
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To: Politicalmom
Obama would be a good LDSer. Path to godhood and all that...
38 posted on 09/05/2009 3:53:32 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (There's something socialist in the neighborhood, who ya gonna call? MITTBUSTERS!)
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To: Saundra Duffy
We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

Hitch up yer wagons, boys!

We can drive a BIG team through here!

39 posted on 09/05/2009 7:34:37 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Saundra Duffy
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Says it all!

40 posted on 09/05/2009 7:35:15 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Saundra Duffy
Please don’t insult my Heavenly Father.

JS already did by claiming he has a body of FLESH - just like you and me.

41 posted on 09/05/2009 7:36:06 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: derekr44
It is a little funny sometimes... watching people get all frazzled, beating their chests as if their knowledge is more superior than yours.

Say...

Do either one of YOU folks KNOW just what Joseph Smith LEARNED to be UNTRUE about PRESBYTERIANism?

It is the FOUNDATION of MORMONism.

42 posted on 09/05/2009 7:37:28 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: derekr44; Tennessee Nana
Countering a (any) religious document with scientific facts (whether they be the laws of physics or logical/grammatical structure, it is the same) is a moot point. Unless of course you are an atheist attempting to disprove the notion of a central creator.

that is assuming that the bom IS a true creation of a central creation committee. If it were truly created by the mormon god, you may have a point. However, where compared against actual historical accounts and evidence the bom is shown to be fraudulent time and again.

You want to bring up bom's grammatical structure? The 'scribes' describe in mormon documents that the translation was literally word-for-word. 3000+ changes in the bom later show your mormon god to be an illiterate poser.

Atheist - LOL, typical mormon slash and burn tactics. No wonder many ex-mormons turn to atheism when the leave ldsism - because they have had it drilled daily that all other faith outside the mother church is false.

43 posted on 09/07/2009 6:14:07 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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