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Utah Sen. Bennett makes a leap, defends his LDS faith in new book
The Salt Lake Tribune ^ | Sept. 17, 2009 | Kristen Moulton

Posted on 09/20/2009 7:47:05 AM PDT by Colofornian

Bob Bennett has a challenge for those who reject The Book of Mormon as a fanciful work of fiction...In a new book, Leap of Faith: Confronting the Origins of The Book of Mormon, the lifelong Mormon and grandson of a church prophet, argues that the foundational book of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints cannot be dismissed so easily.

SNIP

...Terryl Givens, a Mormon and a professor of literature and religion at the University of Richmond, notes that The Book of Mormon has not undergone much if any scrutiny by scholars outside the faith.

"The story of its coming forth is too fantastical for non-Mormons to overcome," he told Religion News Service.

SNIP

If the book is less likely to find its way into non-Mormon hands, it may turn out to be useful for the faithful, particularly those confused by The Book of Mormon...

Too few Mormons really understand their bedrock book, Bennett says, and many use it merely as a "theological version of Bartlett's," a source of quotes for church talks.

SNIP

Some church members have told Bennett they are uncomfortable to learn there are unresolved "problems" with The Book of Mormon.

For instance, he doesn't have an answer for why Moroni, the last author of the book and the angel who purportedly showed the plates to Smith, would use words about charity that are almost identical to those uttered by Paul in his letter to the Corinthians in the New Testament...

"They [his own critics] say, 'One of our own should not be pointing these things out in case the critics have missed them,' " Bennett says.

But Bennett says, to remain credible, he had to put even the unanswerable arguments into his book.

(Excerpt) Read more at sltrib.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events; Other Christian; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: 111th; antimormonthread; bennett; bookofmormon; bookreview; lds; mormon
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From the article: "The story of its coming forth is too fantastical for non-Mormons to overcome," (quote from Lds prof @ the University of Richmond)

IOW -- why bother, Lds missionary, trying to peddle this book door to door?

From the article: Too few Mormons really understand their bedrock book, Bennett says, and many use it merely as a "theological version of Bartlett's," a source of quotes for church talks.

This is an interesting observation from the grandson of an Lds "prophet." But Bennett doesn't explain why this is so...The answer includes the reality that most bedrock Lds distinctive teachings don't come from the Book of Mormon!

Here, their other key book, Doctrine & Covenants says in several places that the Book of Mormon is the "fulness of the everlasting gospel" -- and yet it doesn't teach most of the key Lds "gospel principles."

Baptism for the dead isn't mentioned in the Book of Mormon.
Men becoming gods isn't there.
Nor is god having once been a man who worked his own salvation to eventually become a god.
Nor is there anything about 3 degrees of glory.
Or that you have to be married to earn the highest degree of glory.
Etc, etc., etc.

The other problem with Mormons leading off with the Book of Mormon, then, to non-Mormons -- is that it doesn't reveal what bedrock Mormonism is about. It's actually misleading that an Lds missionary could hand a Book of Mormon to a potential convert, and the convert read it, and actually come to understand what Mormonism is about!

From the article: Bennett "...doesn't have an answer for why Moroni, the last author of the book and the angel who purportedly showed the plates to Smith, would use words about charity that are almost identical to those uttered by Paul in his letter to the Corinthians in the New Testament...

Hmm...supposed "forgery" expert doesn't have an answer for this -- or why Joseph Smith copies two dozen chapters from the King James Bible word for word into the Book of Mormon? (What? Did these gold plates from 600 B.C., etc., only translate into 1611 King James English vocabulary?)

And what about hundreds of phrases and words also lifted word-for-word from the King James Bible?

1 posted on 09/20/2009 7:47:06 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
It's actually misleading that an Lds missionary could hand a Book of Mormon to a potential convert, and the convert read it, and actually come to understand what Mormonism is about!

Well certainly is the truth.

2 posted on 09/20/2009 7:49:33 AM PDT by svcw (Legalism reinforces self-righteousness - it communicates to you the good news of your own goodness)
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To: Colofornian
From the article: Bennett "...doesn't have an answer for why Moroni, the last author of the book and the angel who purportedly showed the plates to Smith, would use words about charity that are almost identical to those uttered by Paul in his letter to the Corinthians in the New Testament...

This is what happens when one accepts the bom as true at all costs, regardless of the volumes of evidence that it is the work of man, not God.

3 posted on 09/20/2009 7:52:16 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Colofornian
One of the more memorable passages from the Book of Mormon:

ETHER 15:30. And it came to pass that when Coriantumr had leaned upon his sword, that he rested a little, he smote off the head of Shiz.

ETHER 15:31. And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised upon his hands and fell; and after that he had struggled for breath, he died.

4 posted on 09/20/2009 7:59:11 AM PDT by ZGuy
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To: Colofornian

I have a question... and I need help.

What does the bible say about what a father must do if a son (almost of legal age) becomes completely deceived by Mormonism... even to the point of expressing a level of faith that cannot be changed by reason and examination?


5 posted on 09/20/2009 8:05:15 AM PDT by Safrguns
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To: Colofornian
The origin of the Book of Mormon is explained here:

Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon?: The Spalding Enigma

In a nutshell, the origin of the Book of Mormon is not much different from that of the Koran or Dianetics. It's basically part of a business plan!

6 posted on 09/20/2009 8:09:29 AM PDT by Ozone34 ("There are only two philosophies: Thomism and bullshitism!" -Leon Bloy)
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To: Safrguns

First - you should pray for your son. Second, you need to read up on Mormonism and understand what the differences are between LDS and Christianity. Once you have found some excellent resource material exposing the LDS faith for what it is, challenge your son to read it. Start with Utah Lighthouse Misitries to find good resource material.


7 posted on 09/20/2009 8:11:42 AM PDT by ghost of nixon
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To: Godzilla
This is what happens when one accepts the bom as true at all costs, regardless of the volumes of evidence that it is the work of man, not God.

And the irony of your statement is that parts of the Book of Mormon is God's word -- but only because of Joseph Smith's outright plagiarism. 1 Nephi 22:20 in the Book of Mormon is a prime-time example.

1 Nephi 22:20: "A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you"

Context: Who is supposedly being paraphrased in this verse? (Answer - Moses -- See Deut 18:15,18)

Was Deut 18 written before this supposed Nephi verse? (Yes, Nephi was supposedly written about 600 years pre-Christ)

So what's the problem? Well compare 1 Nephi 22:20 to Acts 3:22 -- as Acts was written 600 years later -- and Peter was also paraphrasing Moses:

Acts 3:22: "A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you...like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you"

I mean Mormons can't even try to explain that away by saying that Peter somehow got ahold of these gold plates! (Why? Because Peter's words in Acts 3:22 weren't written in 1611 King James English!!! They were written by Luke in Greek!)

IOW, to chronologically believe Smith & the Mormons we'd have to believe that...
...Moses said what he did in Deut 18:15,18;
...Nephi paraphrased it in "reformed Egyptian" -- the "choice" language of Jews -- 1 Nephi 22:20;
...then Peter's paraphrase of Moses somehow matches the later Book of Mormon translation in 27 exact English words -- even though Peter's translation was first into Greek (book of Acts) and then 1500 years later was translated again into English!

This is tantamount, Godzilla, to one of your FR posts being published in the year 3800 in a publication -- where they use an exact version of that quotation as it appeared in a British cockney or Scottish colloquial vocab-adapted publication as published in the year 3575...and I don't think future FReepers would tell us with a straight face that the author of the year 3800 publication "translated" the original Godzilla source from gold-plated Freeper documents written in the year 2010...with his face stuck in a hat.

If this is true of generational paraphrases undergoing a second extented generation of same-language colloquialistic vocab & phrase import, how much wider would these phrases be were the paraphrases to have all been written in entirely three major distinct languages (Greek, English, and a language that Smith made up -- Reformed Egyptian)??

There's faith. And then there's fantastic fictional family-handed-down blind faith.

8 posted on 09/20/2009 8:15:59 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: ZGuy
And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised upon his hands and fell...

(Well, maybe Shiz' hands were like those of the average American boy on a date -- simply uncontrollable???)

9 posted on 09/20/2009 8:17:32 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: ZGuy

LOL

Boy the Shiz guy was tough...


10 posted on 09/20/2009 8:20:41 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (There's something socialist in the neighborhood, who ya gonna call? MITTBUSTERS!)
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To: Colofornian
Too few Mormons really understand their bedrock book, Bennett says, and many use it merely as a "theological version of Bartlett's," a source of quotes for church talks. ....and FR threads...

I testify that this is twoooo....we see it all the time on FR.

holee ghost cat

11 posted on 09/20/2009 8:23:37 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (ObaMugabe is turning this country into another Zimbabwe as fast as he can with media's help.)
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To: colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; ...

Ping


12 posted on 09/20/2009 8:26:10 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (ObaMugabe is turning this country into another Zimbabwe as fast as he can with media's help.)
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To: ghost of nixon

>>> First - you should pray for your son. Second, you need to read up on Mormonism and understand what the differences are between LDS and Christianity.

Thank you, and we are way ahead of that.
This has been going on for almost a year now.
I am not sure how I could be any more informed on LDS vs Christian beliefs. It is a spiritual hold that trumps reason and logic.

I am not willing at this point to give up on him yet...
but I need to know what God says that I should do in this situation assuming that he will not listen to us as his parents. I’m searching myself for the answer... but any help would be appreciated.


13 posted on 09/20/2009 8:27:50 AM PDT by Safrguns
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To: Colofornian
Bob Bennett has a challenge for those who reject The Book of Mormon as a fanciful work of fiction.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

How can a man have time to write a book and still be a **responsible** SENATOR of the United States of America???? Being a senator should be more than a full-time job, if he were doing it it properly.

14 posted on 09/20/2009 8:30:34 AM PDT by wintertime (People are not stupid! Good ideas win!)
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To: Ozone34

. . . and a way to collect extra wives.


15 posted on 09/20/2009 8:30:44 AM PDT by Rockingham
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To: ZGuy
Shiz raised upon his hands and fell; and after that he had struggled for breath, he died.

Fo' shizzle?

16 posted on 09/20/2009 8:39:07 AM PDT by humblegunner
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To: Safrguns
Thank you, and we are way ahead of that.

Is there by any chance, a friend or love interest who may be influencing him?

17 posted on 09/20/2009 8:52:58 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (ObaMugabe is turning this country into another Zimbabwe as fast as he can with media's help.)
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To: greyfoxx39

>>> Is there by any chance, a friend or love interest who may be influencing him?

He claims that he was convinced of BOM being true before he met his mormon girlfriend. But he is surely blinded by her influence, even though he denies it.

His girlfriend’s father is the local LDS bishop... which doesn’t help things much. He obviously has more influence over him than I do. He asks them (girlfriends parents) questions, but will not consult us.


18 posted on 09/20/2009 9:04:39 AM PDT by Safrguns
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To: greyfoxx39

If you’re not already aware of it,
http://www.exmormon.org
is a valuable and supportive site. Besides the open forums, it has a wealth of first person stories and exposes actual Mormon theology and history. God bless with all that you’re going through.


19 posted on 09/20/2009 9:08:49 AM PDT by Bonneville
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To: Safrguns
His girlfriend’s father is the local LDS bishop... which doesn’t help things much. He obviously has more influence over him than I do. He asks them (girlfriends parents) questions, but will not consult us.

If your son has hopes of a future with this girl, he will HAVE to convert to mormonism or be dropped like a hot potato.

If he DOES convert, prepare for you, your wife, his siblings, aunts, uncles and grandparents to be excluded from attending his wedding in the LDS temple unless they are "worthy" mormons. You will all be forced to wait either outside or in a "Non-holy" room so that you can all post for wedding pictures on the steps of the temple.

I will pray for you and your family.

20 posted on 09/20/2009 9:30:00 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (ObaMugabe is turning this country into another Zimbabwe as fast as he can with media's help.)
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To: Safrguns
I have a question... and I need help. What does the bible say about what a father must do if a son (almost of legal age) becomes completely deceived by Mormonism... even to the point of expressing a level of faith that cannot be changed by reason and examination?

Well, the apostle Paul was single, but he treated those the Lord used him to win as if they were his spiritual offspring:

Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me. (1 Cor. 4:15-16)

I don't know how much of the true gospel your son accepted or rejected, but if that was something you clearly shared with him, remind him that you are twice his father -- once naturally, and once supernaturally.

And what you have been going through, is what Paul went through with the Galatians -- the “father heart cry” of Paul for the Galatians was, “My little children of whom I labor in birth AGAIN UNTIL CHRIST IS FORMED IN YOU." (Gal. 4:19)

What was the bottom line issue with the Galatians? Paul sums it up in Gal. 3:3: Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

You need to show clearly the difference between the Christian lifestyle and that of legalistic Mormonism (2 Nephi 25:23) -- "you are saved by grace AFTER ALL YOU CAN DO."

Your son, nor any Mormon, can ever do enough. Not physically. Not emotionally. Not spiritually. Not relationally.

And that's why, as you read Gal. 4:19 and following, you see Paul immediately describe those in the OT trying to live by the law -- those who became Muslims. Paul describes those as illegitimate sons -- much like Hagar's child.

You need to somehow convey to your son, that his Father in heaven sees those who try to earn their sonship as taking the illegitimate course.

We don't earn our Father's sonship; we are sons. That's the difference also between the Mormon false "gospel" and the true one: The Mormon bad news is always, "thou shalt perform" -- so as to be deemed worthy in God's eyes -- as if God didn't already know our inward heart.

The Christian gospel says, you are forgiven. Therefore, live as one forgiven. (Our deeds then simply become the by-product of a forgiven lifestyle).

I would make a suggestion that you save up for him the nicest gift you could give him either for Christmas or his 18th birthday. After you give it to him, in all seriousness, hand him a written out payback plan for that gift.

Diversify the payback plan. Make some of the "payments" work he has to do for you; make some of the payments (10%) actual $; make some of the payments behavior-based; etc.

Don't go to the punchline too early on this. Show him you are dead serious (this isn't a joke). Let it linger. Don't help him out of this struggle right away.

The punchline: When you do reveal the punchline to him, give him a written list of all the requirements in Mormonism...
all their ordinances;
precept keeping;
commandment keeping;
their temple recommend checklist-keeping;
etc.
Mormon leaders' quotes re: how they see their life as a "payback" to God -- as if He could be paid back....

Then contrast that with the historic Christian understanding of redeemed -- how it literally means to be bought back. How the phrase Jesus said on the cross, "It is finished" -- was also a phrase used in their time to mean, "paid in full."

And then explain that if any child tried to insist on paying back a wonderful gift from their father, that child would eventually insult the father. A gift is a gift is a gift. (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 6:23 explain how our eternal life is a gift -- not a payback plan)

And then tell your son he's embarking on a grand payback scheme toward a gift via Mormonism, and how in the process, he's insulting our Father in heaven. A gift from our Father is a gift is a gift.

21 posted on 09/20/2009 9:33:26 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Ozone34
with high reguard to most Mormons that I know, all seemingly good and hard working people, the "founding" of Mormonism is very peculiar.....a con man running from the law....

and what does one do when he needs to get a lot of help right away?....he states that men should have many wives, even little girls to choose from because "god" told him to do it.

whenever men want more power to live promicuously they come up with a god reference..like Muslims... IMO of course.....

a more honest way for a man to want many relationships is to just have the relaionships, without calling it a God sanctioned marriage,which it is not....

22 posted on 09/20/2009 10:19:03 AM PDT by cherry
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To: Colofornian
Bob Bennett has a challenge for those who reject The Book of Mormon as a fanciful work of fiction...

And I have a challenge for anyone: MORMONs especially:

WHY are NONE of the SACRED rituals performed today in the Temples, NOT found in the BoM??

Throw it away and MORMON doctrine would NOT change a bit!

23 posted on 09/20/2009 11:03:08 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Safrguns
He claims that he was convinced of BOM being true before he met his mormon girlfriend.

(See my post above.)

24 posted on 09/20/2009 11:04:27 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: greyfoxx39; Safrguns
I will pray for you and your family.

As will I and my church. Being sucked into a cult is very serious business.

25 posted on 09/20/2009 11:30:41 AM PDT by Graybeard58 ( Selah.)
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To: Elsie
WHY are NONE of the SACRED rituals performed today in the Temples, NOT found in the BoM??

Well, some they found down at the Masonic Lodge.

26 posted on 09/20/2009 11:32:29 AM PDT by Graybeard58 ( Selah.)
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To: greyfoxx39

>>> If your son has hopes of a future with this girl, he will HAVE to convert to mormonism or be dropped like a hot potato.

We explained this to him months ago. For a while, he seemed to have accepted our arguments that mormonism was wrong, but he could not give up his relationship with the girl, which I explained to him would have to come eventually one way or another. I did not anticipate a second reversion to their way of thinking. I was convinced we had steered him from it.

>>> If he DOES convert, prepare for you, your wife, his siblings, aunts, uncles and grandparents to be excluded from attending his wedding in the LDS temple unless they are “worthy” mormons.

If he does convert formally, I am forced to follow God’s instructions on the matter. I fear that as far as his heart goes (based on his own words) that he has already converted, even though he admits he is not familiar with all of their doctrins. (even though we have explained them to him). As far as weddings go, we would not even go near it.

Thank you for your prayers... they are certainly needed.


27 posted on 09/20/2009 1:10:44 PM PDT by Safrguns
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To: Colofornian

I really do like your analogy. In a way, this has already taken place. I basically cut him off from financial support for his driving expenses (insurance), which means he cannot drive until he pays me back what he owes me AND is able to afford his own. Unfortunately, he is so blinded at this point that he looks upon the situation as an endurance test to prove his worthiness for the Mormon faith. Despite the discipline measures he is currently under, he has stated his intention to be baptized in their church when he is 18 (1 yr from now)

Thank you for your very thoughtful and thorough reply.


28 posted on 09/20/2009 1:15:46 PM PDT by Safrguns
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To: Graybeard58

>>> As will I and my church. Being sucked into a cult is very serious business.

Thank you. My wife and I are in spiritual agreement that God will bring him through this.

The one thing I think we have going for us is the fact that he really is so strong willed, stubborn and rebellious.

If he thinks we are too controlling, I can’t wait till he gets a taste of their medicine.

(well, actually... I can wait)


29 posted on 09/20/2009 1:22:30 PM PDT by Safrguns
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To: Elsie; cherry; Graybeard58; Safrguns; greyfoxx39; Bonneville; humblegunner; Rockingham; ...
And I have a challenge for anyone: MORMONs especially: WHY are NONE of the SACRED rituals performed today in the Temples, NOT found in the BoM?? Throw it away and MORMON doctrine would NOT change a bit! [Elsie]

A few weeks ago, I posted the following:

"Surely, Mr. Mormon god, you outlined all of the temple practices we have."

"Uh, no. I forgot proxy baptism for the dead. It was kind of an after-thought. And, no, no mention of family or marital sealings. Or, for that matter, any partial or complete text for temple rituals."

"In fact, if you look carefully at the word 'temple' in the Book of Mormon, its only real purpose identified is for teaching (Jacob 1:17; 2:2). We [the mormon gods] borrowed Malachi 3 for the reference to 3 Nephi 24:1 about the temple. And, so, beyond a couple of mentions about 'unholy temples,' there's barely a reference to temples beyond that (only 2 Nephi 5:16 & 3 Nephi 11:1). Sorry."

"Now, I know some folks think that if I was going to demand temple recommends, marriage, the Word of Wisdom, etc. to reach the celestial glory, that I should have included it in the Book of Mormon...but, hey, nobody's infallible -- not even the Mormon main god."

So much for Mormonism restoring that which is lost. Smith just evolved Mormonism as it went along -- leaving it incoherent, contradictory, and an amazing maze left in its trail.

Mormonism reinforced all of the above by...
(a)...ensuring their local bishops were just normal lay people -- for most part incapable of engendering theological teachings...
(b)...ensuring their general authorities were for the most part business leaders...

Note that when its few "systematicians" try to make sense of it all -- people like Lds apostle Bruce McConkie -- there probably isn't a single general authority I've heard more "smack" talk from Mormons about than McConkie...he wasn't loosey-goosey enough with this Mormon maze...he was too specific in quoting leaders who came before him...

30 posted on 09/20/2009 2:19:50 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Safrguns

Two reasonable people equally informed, seldom disagree. If you want to help your son you must become equally informed about the LDS church. Have you read the Book of Mormon? Have you prayed and asked God if it is true?

The Bible say If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God.

The Bible says that there will be both true and false prophets in the last days. By their fruits you shall know them. The true church of Jesus Christ will be led by prophets that receive revelations from Him.

We have 3 choices today. We can follow true prophets like Joseph Smith and the prophets that followed after him. They will lead us to Jesus. Or we can follow false prophets that will lead us away from Jesus. Or we can follow no prophets which will result in our not being led to Jesus.

We do have choices. But choose wisely.


31 posted on 09/20/2009 3:11:44 PM PDT by Alan2
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To: Safrguns; Alan2
Have you read the Book of Mormon? Have you prayed and asked God if it is true?

The Mormon Test for Truthfulness

Mormons often challenge people to pray with sincerity concerning the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, citing a verse in its closing book:

Many sincere seekers fall for this ploy, being ignorant of the warnings set forth by the Bible. Nowhere does the Bible ever direct the believing Christian to take any religious book and pray about the truthfulness of its contents. While we are told to ask God for wisdom (James 1:5), the clear Biblical directive and pattern to follow includes more than this:

Why is this the better method? Because not every self-proclained prophet is from God; many present a false gospel:

How can we determine if a prophet is speaking from God? First, the prophecy must be 100% accurate. Second, the Bible says to use God's previous revelation through Biblical authors as a standard of comparison, because no new revelation will contradict God's previous words:

More at posted link.

Alan states: The true church of Jesus Christ will be led by prophets that receive revelations from Him. Do a little research into what "revelations" have been received by mormon "prophets" in the past 100 years...and read Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

32 posted on 09/20/2009 3:54:45 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (ObaMugabe is turning this country into another Zimbabwe as fast as he can with media's help.)
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To: Alan2

>>> Two reasonable people equally informed, seldom disagree. If you want to help your son you must become equally informed about the LDS church. Have you read the Book of Mormon? Have you prayed and asked God if it is true?

I find believers of the LDS faith neither reasonable nor informed. Otherwise I would have witnessed by now at least one willing to challenge the tenants of their faith... namely that LDS teaches salvation by way of works... which is diametrically opposed to what the Bible teaches in that we are saved by Grace alone through the blood of Jesus Christ.

The level of inconsistencies, contradictions, misrepresentations that I have found EVERY TIME I have peered into the pages of that book is STAGGERING!
Only a spirit of deception beyond any human’s comprehension or understanding could be capable of brainwashing the human mind to the point where it is incapable of recognizing it’s faults and obvious source which is the anti-Christ.

If you don’t believe me, try doing a little research outside of LDS approved sources into the life of Joseph Smith, and tell your bishop what you find...

See what your bishop has to say about your “apostate activities”, and THEN come back and talk to me about “being informed”.


33 posted on 09/20/2009 4:20:21 PM PDT by Safrguns
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To: Safrguns
The beauty of the true Christian faith is that the heart and the head can both be satisfied. I should no have to ask God if there is ground under my feet or if a tree is there when it is right in front of me. There is a reason he gave us brains that can think.

If one only requires a “burning in the bosom” for validity, they are not using the mind God blessed them with, indeed may they may well be relying on “heart burn” from a different source which is a sure path away from what God wants for and from us.

34 posted on 09/20/2009 5:47:59 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (There's something socialist in the neighborhood, who ya gonna call? MITTBUSTERS!)
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To: Alan2
But choose wisely.

Oh the irony...

So abundant when dealing with the LDS...

35 posted on 09/20/2009 5:49:34 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (There's something socialist in the neighborhood, who ya gonna call? MITTBUSTERS!)
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To: ejonesie22

>>> The beauty of the true Christian faith is that the heart and the head can both be satisfied.

Amen! I would add to that in saying that in a true relationship with God, NOTHING is “hidden” or “secret” when it comes to the truths we need to find Him.
If we are able to understand the question, I believe God is willing to give us the answer. The real question is whether or not we are willing to give up our false senses of security for His truth.


36 posted on 09/20/2009 6:18:35 PM PDT by Safrguns
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To: Alan2; Safrguns
Safrguns, I read your reply to this and thought I'd add a thought or too.

Two reasonable people equally informed, seldom disagree. If you want to help your son you must become equally informed about the LDS church. Have you read the Book of Mormon? Have you prayed and asked God if it is true?

I have studied about the bom and come to the same discernment you have Safr - it is a piece of poor fiction. I would say that I am very informed. Notice nothing in Alan's statement to critically evaluate this bom in the way that the Bereans did.

The Bible say If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God.

Which is not the same as reading and praying. But contextrally James was speaking about persecution, not reading the bom. Of course, the use of "wisdom" in that passage also goes beyond blind faith.

The Bible says that there will be both true and false prophets in the last days. By their fruits you shall know them. The true church of Jesus Christ will be led by prophets that receive revelations from Him.

True, it does talk about false prophets and teachers. It also tells us that part of that 'fruit' are false teachings and sources (Gal 1:8-9). Smith's fruits are polygamy (still denigrating women today, both in Lds and flds), racism (still no apologies from the prophets for denying godhood to blacks), massacre at Mountain Meadows, just to name a few

We have 3 choices today. We can follow true prophets like Joseph Smith and the prophets that followed after him. They will lead us to Jesus. Or we can follow false prophets that will lead us away from Jesus. Or we can follow no prophets which will result in our not being led to Jesus.

Not the underlying presupposition - smith was a true prophet. The fundamental question is completely ignored - WAS smith a 'true' prophet of God and how to judge that. That modifies the equation significantly from where Alan is trying to funnel the attention to. If the bom is 'true' and contains as it claims, the history of early americas, there should be proofs - archaeology. If it is true, it should relate to the flora and fauna correctly - which it doesn't. Many studies have shown that the bom relies upon plagiarism from multiple sources - the bible, a "View to the Hebrews", Spaulding's writings, among others.

If Smith was a prophet, his prophecies would have come to pass - they haven't.

Finally, he teaches another gospel not taught by the apostles. Safr is correct in his analysis of the bom and the mormon encouraged (circular argument on their part for starters).

37 posted on 09/20/2009 6:20:58 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: greyfoxx39; Safrguns
I agree that we should do more than just pray to receive an answer as to weather the Book of Mormon is true. We should read the book. The purpose of the Book of Mormon to convince both Jew and gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations.

How did Peter know that Jesus was the Christ. Jesus told him, Flesh and blood has not revealed it unto you but my Father which is in heaven. Paul also knew by revelation as you have stated in 1 Cor 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me.

Read the Book of Mormon to see if it testifies of Jesus. Then follow the example of the Apostles, pray and ask the Father if it is true.

38 posted on 09/20/2009 6:45:51 PM PDT by Alan2
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To: Safrguns
You misunderstand the teachings of the LDS church. We are not saved by works alone. We are all saved by the grace of God. However, please read Matthew 25:14-34 Jesus describes that the Kingdom of heaven is like unto servants with talents.

Every servant who is saved in the Celestial Kingdom is saved by the grace of God. Every servant that is saved in the terrestrial kingdom is saved by the grace of God. And every servant that is saved in the Telestial Kingdom is saved by the grace of God.
We are all saved by the grace of God However we are also judged by our works, our words and our thoughts.

39 posted on 09/20/2009 6:45:52 PM PDT by Alan2
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To: Safrguns
I am not misinformed about the life of Joseph Smith. I am familiar with the charges against him. Especially after viewing posts on this site. He himself prophesied that both good and evil would be spoken about him.

So was Joseph Smith a Prophet of God and we should follow after him. Or was Joseph a false prophet and we should not follow after him. What does the Bible tell us. By their fruits ye shall know them. A bad tree does not produce good fruit. Does the tree that Joseph planted (The LDS Church) produce good fruit. If it does, then Joseph needs to be followed.

Compare the LDS church to other churches that are led by prophets to see if there is a difference.

40 posted on 09/20/2009 6:45:54 PM PDT by Alan2
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To: Godzilla

Thank you...

I’ve been wondering in more recent months just what percentage of ex-mormons left the faith because of a logical argument or the exposure of a falsehood in their scriptures.

After going through what I have with my own son of 17, I am thoroughly convinced that it is truly a spirit of deception that must be broken before any “reason” can begin to have any hope of persuasion.

It would be so helpful to me to hear from those who have left LDS as to what it was that turned them.


41 posted on 09/20/2009 6:53:45 PM PDT by Safrguns
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To: Alan2

>>> We are all saved by the grace of God However we are also judged by our works, our words and our thoughts.

You mix salvation with judgment.
Salvation is the escape from the judgment you speak of.
Judgment itself comes in many forms, times, and purpose.

There are other judgments and accounts that are given that are NOT related to the eternal separation from God as a result of our sin. But again... they are not related to salvation.

I believe that before we concern ourselves with the rewards we might receive in heaven, we should be more concerned about whether or not our name is written in the lamb’s book of life...

and the bible says that if a man mixes his works with God’s Grace for justification, then his sins remain.


42 posted on 09/20/2009 7:11:01 PM PDT by Safrguns
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To: Safrguns

I’ll ping exmormons to you via Freepmail so you can converse with them.


43 posted on 09/20/2009 7:13:13 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Alan2

>>> Compare the LDS church to other churches that are led by prophets to see if there is a difference.

Show me a single biblical prophet or author that used an instrument of witchcraft to divine God’s Word into writing as Joseph Smith did using those “Seer Stones”.

How about that difference?

We don’t even have to get to the 1st Book of Nephi before we are shown evidence that God did NOT commission the writing.


44 posted on 09/20/2009 7:15:07 PM PDT by Safrguns
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To: Safrguns
If I was a betting man, my guess would be that at some point the now Ex-Mormon finally actually listened, either to their own words, or the words of others and found that jello really cannot be nailed to a wall.

The rhetoric and circular logic, the jumping from belief to belief, as exampled on this very thread about grace and works and the LDS with yet again another “taking the side that fits at the time” presentation. At some point such activity finally hits home for some.

There are two basic LDS members that I have been able to deduce from all the rhetoric here. Those who believe and either can't or wont see the truth and those who have other motivations, who know it is all a fabrication but for whatever reason have to play along.

Oddly enough I find the latter to be the most “able” (if such is really possible)defenders and apologist, the ones who promote the most prolific and technically complicated arguments.

Makes me often wonder who they are trying to convince most, us or themselves...

45 posted on 09/20/2009 7:18:12 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (There's something socialist in the neighborhood, who ya gonna call? MITTBUSTERS!)
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To: ejonesie22

>>> Makes me often wonder who they are trying to convince most, us or themselves...

I think you hit on it here... and I think it is both, and it clearly is related to pride and false security.

God says that where your treasure is, there will your heart be also... and if a man invests his entire life in what later occurs to him to be a false religion, then the pride of his folly is that much harder to swallow... and he will find it easier to brainwash himself into believing the lie than to humble himself in favor of the truth.


46 posted on 09/20/2009 7:27:45 PM PDT by Safrguns
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To: Alan2; Safrguns
Alan2, weren't you claiming of knowledge of great geologic evidence regarding the bom cities?

I am not misinformed about the life of Joseph Smith. I am familiar with the charges against him.

Fine - which testimony of his first vision should we believe?
How did Smith translate the bom?
Where are the bom cities here in the Americas?

So was Joseph Smith a Prophet of God and we should follow after him. Or was Joseph a false prophet and we should not follow after him. What does the Bible tell us. By their fruits ye shall know them.

Prophets produce true prophecies about that he could not know. Smith has a long list of false prophecies - the fruit of one who claims to be a prophet. It is not rocket science.

47 posted on 09/20/2009 7:28:45 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Safrguns
I think that is a large part of it, yes. Self deception can remain after the ultimate deceiver finishes his work. Makes it easy for him.
48 posted on 09/20/2009 7:37:16 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (There's something socialist in the neighborhood, who ya gonna call? MITTBUSTERS!)
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To: Godzilla
I Had this argument a few days back with him. Accuracy isn't the most important thing and it's the “fruit” that counts. Used the “growth” and size of the LDS and it's success as proof that it is the true faith.

Of course the logic falls flat rather quickly since the Catholic and Muslim faiths are both growing and considerably larger than the slowly declining LDS.

Of course I realize I used logic and LDS in the same sentence...

49 posted on 09/20/2009 7:40:16 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (There's something socialist in the neighborhood, who ya gonna call? MITTBUSTERS!)
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To: Godzilla

>>> Smith has a long list of false prophecies -

Like his prophesy that his unborn son would finish translation of the plates at the age of 3...

And his son ended up dying at birth.

Both verifiable.


50 posted on 09/20/2009 7:41:06 PM PDT by Safrguns
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