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John Calvin’s Worst Heresy: That Christ Suffered in Hell
Called to Communion ^ | September 15, 2009 | Taylor Marshall

Posted on 09/21/2009 10:14:12 AM PDT by NYer

Years ago while listening to Hank Hanegraaff’s Bible Answer Man radio program, a caller called in about “Christ suffering in Hell.” Hank rightly explained that “Christ suffering in Hell” is not a biblical doctrine, but noted that the doctrine was held by John Calvin. Hank respectfully disagreed with Calvin.

We can argue back and forth over Calvin’s doctrine of baptism or predestination, but Calvin is a manifest heretic regarding Christ’s descent into hell. He breaks with Scripture and all the Fathers in this regard, and his error deserves more attention, because it shows the cracks in his systematic theology. During my three years at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, nobody wanted to touch this with a ten-foot pole.

So that you can get Calvin in context, I’ve provided the full section from Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion Book II, Chapter 16, 10 in full. The red inserts are mine.

But, apart from the Creed, we must seek for a surer exposition of Christ’s descent to hell: and the word of God furnishes us with one not only pious and holy, but replete with excellent consolation. Nothing had been done if Christ had only endured corporeal death. In order to interpose between us and God’s anger, and satisfy his righteous judgement, it was necessary that he should feel the weight of divine vengeance. Whence also it was necessary that he should engage, as it were, at close quarters with the powers of hell and the horrors of eternal death [What!!! Christ suffered eternal death and the pains the hell!].

We lately quoted from the Prophet, that the “chastisement of our peace was laid upon him” that he “was bruised for our iniquities” that he “bore our infirmities;” [ [the authors of Scripture and the Fathers apply these prophecies to the crucifixion--not to any penal condemnation in hell] expressions which intimate, that, like a sponsor and surety for the guilty, and, as it were, subjected to condemnation, he undertook and paid all the penalties which must have been exacted from them, the only exception being, that the pains of death could not hold him. Hence there is nothing strange in its being said that he descended to hell, seeing he endured the death which is inflicted on the wicked by an angry God. It is frivolous and ridiculous to object that in this way the order is perverted, it being absurd that an event which preceded burial should be placed after it. But after explaining what Christ endured in the sight of man, the Creed appropriately adds the invisible and incomprehensible judgement [ [so the cross as visible judgment was not enough. Christ suffered in hell...] which he endured before God, to teach us that not only was the body of Christ given up as the price of redemption, but that there was a greater and more excellent price – that he bore in his soul the tortures of condemned and ruined man. [ [So after suffering in the body on the cross, Christ's soul suffered tortures of the condemned in hell.]

What do we make of this? Essentially, Calvin’s doctrine of penal substitution is the problem (something Catholicism rejects, by the way). If we understand atonement as “substitution,” we run into the error that Calvin has committed. Since sinners deserve both physical death and spiritual torment in hell we should also expect that Christ as our redeemer must also experience both physical death and hell. This logic only makes sense–except that it contradicts everything said in the New Testament about Christ’s once-for-all sacrifice. The descent into hell was not punitive in anyway, but rather triumphant as described by the Apostles and illustrated in thousands of churches, both East and West (see picture below).

This descent into Hell as Christ’s victory corresponds to the teaching of our first Pope Saint Peter: Christ “proclaimed the Gospel even to the dead” (εἰς τοῦτο γὰρ καὶ νεκροῖς εὐηγγελίσθη, 1 Pet 4:6). Jesus wasn’t burning in the flames! He was dashing the gates of Hell, proclaiming His victory, and delivering the righteous of the Old Testament! That’s the holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith in all its beauty.

The “penal substitution” theory of the atonement is patently false. Christ died for us, but it wasn’t a simple swap. Christ uses the language of participation. We are to be “in Him” and we are to also carry the cross. Christ doesn’t take up the cross so that we don’t have to take up the cross. He repeatedly calls us to carry the cross. Our lives are to become “cruciform.” The New Testament constantly calls us to suffer in the likeness of Christ. Again, it’s not a clean exchange. It’s not: “Jesus suffers so that we don’t have to.” Rather we participate in His redemption. This is also the language of Saint Paul:

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake (Phil 1:29).

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the Church (Col 1:24).

I would challenge all Reformed readers to slowly flip through the epistles of Paul and note the occurance of “in Him” and “in Christ”. Better yet, use BibleWorks or another Bible program and run a search. You will quickly see that “in Him” and “in Christ” is the universal soteriological category for Saint Paul–not justification or regeneration.

According to Catholic Christianity, Christian salvation involves the vindication of Christ’s unjust death on the cross. God does not “hate” His Son. This is impossible. God does not “turn away” from His Son. Luther introduced this false tension and it has led to Calvin’s grievous heresy. Saint Paul speaks of “overcoming death” as the true victory of Christ – not His being the whipping boy of the Father.

I should stop there and open up the comments:



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: calvin; catholic; hell; heresy; moapb
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 09/21/2009 10:14:12 AM PDT by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

For those who may be interested in this topic.


2 posted on 09/21/2009 10:15:08 AM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

How bizarre. I’ve never before heard of this belief.


3 posted on 09/21/2009 10:18:31 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: NYer

WTS ought to be called Hyper-Calvinism Seminary. Where else is Dutch a required subject.


4 posted on 09/21/2009 10:22:20 AM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: NYer
In this essay Marshall also points up the concept of "participation".

If Calvinism is about anything it is about the complete lack of participation on our part in our salvation. God does everything. We are merely passive observers on our predestined paths to Heaven or Hell.

5 posted on 09/21/2009 10:25:43 AM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear (These fragments I have shored against my ruins)
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To: trisham

I believe the idea is that since Jesus took all our sins on himself, he suffered all the punishment for those sins too - ie. eternal suffering times all the people who ever lived.

There is a certain logic to it if you squint really hard and turn your head in exactly the right way.

I don’t buy it myself.


6 posted on 09/21/2009 10:28:06 AM PDT by DManA
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To: trisham

Cheeck out the “Jesus Died Spiritually,” and Born Again Jesus” heresies. JDS and BAG are taught in many Word of Faith churches. They try to say that this is Biblically-based Orthodox doctrine, but it is far from it.

What many WOF churches (although not so openly today) teach is that Christ’s nature changed - a denial of the Nicene Creed. Jesus did not go and suffer in hell for three days to atone for man’s sin or for any other reason. The price was paid on the cross.

Jesus nature never changed, Satan did not become Jesus’ master, Jesus did not die spiritually, Jesus was not Begotten in hell and so on, despite what many WOF “preachers and “teachers’ say.


7 posted on 09/21/2009 10:28:41 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: NYer

Just to clarify:

Christ’s “once-for-all” sacrifice is eternal. Maybe a wording which cause less confusion than “eternal” these days is “not temporal,” since “eternal” has come to mean “continuing forever,” which is different than the Church has used it in contexts such as these.

That said, it’s interesting if Calvin discarded the correct “eternal sacrifice” of the Mass, while preserving an incorrect notion of eternal sacrifice in Hell.


8 posted on 09/21/2009 10:30:52 AM PDT by dangus (I am JimThompson)
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To: DManA

I think it is exactly backwards. Jesus didn’t take our sins. We take his perfection. As a love gift from God.


9 posted on 09/21/2009 10:31:12 AM PDT by DManA
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To: NYer; Dr. Eckleburg; Alex Murphy; Frumanchu

from the denomination that brings us Mary the co-redeemer..........pffffft


10 posted on 09/21/2009 10:31:24 AM PDT by Revelation 911 (How many 100's of 1000's of our servicemen died so we would never bow to a king?" -freeper pnh102)
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To: NYer

No wonder the West is full of atheists.


11 posted on 09/21/2009 10:36:09 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: NYer
“Since sinners deserve both physical death and spiritual torment in hell...”

Since we are all by definition sinners does this comment then mean that no one deserves Heaven?

12 posted on 09/21/2009 10:40:21 AM PDT by starlifter (Sapor Amo Pullus)
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To: Revelation 911
Mary is the co-redeemer? Who, that's a twist. Where does that come from?
13 posted on 09/21/2009 10:41:22 AM PDT by starlifter (Sapor Amo Pullus)
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To: NYer
Swedenborg interrogated Calvin in the spiritual world. The take away was that he wrote many things to serve his own personal ends (pope of Geneva).I'll make a note to post an analysis of Swedendenborg's conversations with both him and Luther.

Project Infinite Freep: Restore our national dialog!

More Swedenborgians:

Carl Jung and the Holy Grail of the Unconscious - NYTimes.com -- NY Times
Johnny Appleseed: Swedenborgian Evangelist in America
Johnny Appleseed; Good News Fresh From Heaven

Foundation for my Church

The Faith of the New Church

Major confirmations of Him:

THE TWELVE STONES SET UP AT THE JORDAN FOUND WITH INSCRIPTIONS

14 posted on 09/21/2009 10:41:25 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Be interested, not interesting: Offer a wreath, not wrath)
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To: DManA

That is partly correct:

2 Corinthians 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Isaiah 53 prophesied Jesus’ mission as savior in great detail long before His time here on earth:

53Who has believed what we have heard?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3He was despised and rejected by others;
a man of suffering* and acquainted with infirmity;
and as one from whom others hide their faces*
he was despised, and we held him of no account.

4Surely he has borne our infirmities
and carried our diseases;
yet we accounted him stricken,
struck down by God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions,
crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the punishment that made us whole,
and by his bruises we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have all turned to our own way,
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8By a perversion of justice he was taken away.
Who could have imagined his future?
For he was cut off from the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people.
9They made his grave with the wicked
and his tomb* with the rich,*
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.

10Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him with pain.*
When you make his life an offering for sin,*
he shall see his offspring, and shall prolong his days;
through him the will of the Lord shall prosper.
11 Out of his anguish he shall see light;*
he shall find satisfaction through his knowledge.
The righteous one,* my servant, shall make many righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore I will allot him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he poured out himself to death,
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.


15 posted on 09/21/2009 10:43:01 AM PDT by DarthVader (Liberalism is the politics of EVIL whose time of judgment has come.)
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To: NYer
Good post. And the author correctly states Catholic and Orthodox position on the descent to hades - it was a triumphant smashing of the gates of hades. Christ trampled down death by death and bestowed life on those in the tombs.

The Resurrection icon shows Our Lord pulling Adam and Eve up from the grave.

Christ is our rescuer, our hero, our King! He is not Calvin's imagined whipping boy.

16 posted on 09/21/2009 10:44:21 AM PDT by Martin Tell (ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it)
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To: NYer

What does Acts 2:31 say of Christ?


17 posted on 09/21/2009 10:44:37 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: DManA
Jesus didn’t take our sins

Then there is no hope. Thank God you are wrong.
18 posted on 09/21/2009 10:45:03 AM PDT by armydoc
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To: NYer

“Years ago while listening”...”I should stop there”


19 posted on 09/21/2009 10:47:00 AM PDT by suzyjaruki (What is coming next?)
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To: DManA
Jesus didn’t take our sins.

That is not what the Bible says:

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (NASB) 2 Cor. 5:21

All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him. (NASB) Isaiah 53:6

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust . . . (NASB) 1 Peter 3:18

And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. (NASB) 1 John 3:5

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 1 Peter 2:24

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. Isaiah 53:6

20 posted on 09/21/2009 10:47:10 AM PDT by pby
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To: trisham
How bizarre.

What is even more bizarre is a Catholic trying to expound on Calvin, or Scripture...You guys claim you can turn wine into blood and you call Calvin bizarre???

21 posted on 09/21/2009 10:47:33 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: DManA

Heh. Thanks.


22 posted on 09/21/2009 10:48:08 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Interesting. I usually skip these threads. Now I know why. :)


23 posted on 09/21/2009 10:49:53 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Iscool

I have no idea what you are talking about.


24 posted on 09/21/2009 10:50:51 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: pby
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 1 Peter 2:24

Whenever scripture contradicts myth (tradition), throw the scripture in the trash can...

25 posted on 09/21/2009 10:54:02 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: armydoc

Answering half my sentence is the same as a lie. One more thing for Jesus to forgive.


26 posted on 09/21/2009 10:56:39 AM PDT by DManA
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To: Martin Tell

No question not everything Calvin said was infallible. He just did such a great job dismantling that bodacious monstrosity of demonic Catholic error, that one has to give him a big “Thank you for exposing the cult of Rome”.

When the RCC (or whatever this disfunctional prison wishes itself to be called now), gets that lumber pile of logs out of its cyclopic eye, then give us a call about the subtleties of Christ’s proptiatory work.


27 posted on 09/21/2009 10:56:56 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Iscool
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 1 Peter 2:24

Our Presbyterian PCA pastor put it this way, Christ endured Hell on the Cross, baring all the sins on His Body on the cross for the sake of folks like you and me.

To say that he didn't is to say that Christ did not pay the price for our sins.

at close quarters with the powers of hell and the horrors of eternal death

How easy is it for Taylor to misconstrue these words. At close quarters where? He assumes in Hell. We say it is on the Cross

28 posted on 09/21/2009 11:02:06 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: Revelation 911

explain yourself, please....


29 posted on 09/21/2009 11:06:53 AM PDT by joe fonebone (I am racist, hear me roar....I don't give a crap anymore....)
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To: sr4402
He assumes in Hell. We say it is on the Cross

Are those two different places? Jesus cried out that God had forsaken Him; for the Son of God that would be pure torture, Hell on Earth, so to speak. Protestantism generally holds that Hell is a spiritual place; why not on the Cross?

30 posted on 09/21/2009 11:07:10 AM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the Defense of the Indefensible)
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To: starlifter
why is it you guys play "aint heard that" when someone pushes back at your nonsense in the name of the Church

http://lasalettejourney.blogspot.com/2009/05/one-step-closer-to-fifth-marian-dogma.html

how many otherlinks you want?

31 posted on 09/21/2009 11:08:26 AM PDT by Revelation 911 (How many 100's of 1000's of our servicemen died so we would never bow to a king?" -freeper pnh102)
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To: Revelation 911
Say what? How about a link from the Church? Source documents, not some nut case’s twisted and willful misinterpretation.
32 posted on 09/21/2009 11:10:53 AM PDT by starlifter (Sapor Amo Pullus)
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To: starlifter

“Since we are all by definition sinners does this comment then mean that no one deserves Heaven?”

Yup. No one deserves Heaven.

Colonel, USAFR


33 posted on 09/21/2009 11:12:51 AM PDT by jagusafr (Kill the red lizard, Lord! - nod to C.S. Lewis)
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To: NYer

Being neither Calvinist nor Catholic, I usually read and enjoy these posts without comment, but have to say that I’ve heard several Calvinist preachers reject this doctrine. My own take is that Jesus declared his victory over death and the wages of sin.

I’ll run on, and mind my own business now.


34 posted on 09/21/2009 11:17:15 AM PDT by pallis
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To: PugetSoundSoldier

My understanding of Jesus crying out “My God, my God why have you forsaken me” is that any Jew watching this crucifixion would have known he was quoting Psalm 22. The words should be taken in the context of that Psalm to understand it fully.

PSLAM 22
1 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
2 O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer; And by night, but I have no rest.
3 Yet You are holy, O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
4 In You our fathers trusted; They trusted and You delivered them.
5 To You they cried out and were delivered; In You they trusted and were not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm and not a man, A reproach of men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me sneer at me; They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
8 “Commit yourself to the LORD; let Him deliver him; Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”
9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.
10 Upon You I was cast from birth; You have been my God from my mother’s womb.
11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And You lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me;
18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But You, O LORD, be not far off; O You my help, hasten to my assistance.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword, My only life from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth; From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.
22 I will tell of Your name to my brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise Him; All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him, And stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from him; But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
25 From You comes my praise in the great assembly; I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
26 The afflicted will eat and be satisfied; Those who seek Him will praise the LORD Let your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S And He rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship, All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
30 Posterity will serve Him; It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.
31 They will come and will declare His righteousness To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.


35 posted on 09/21/2009 11:29:13 AM PDT by missnry (The truth will set you free ... and drive liberals Crazy!)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
Are those two different places?

An interesting question. However, if you understand that Christ bore the sins of the Elect only His body on the cross, then you understand why they are still on the others. The Lord Jesus Christ told the Pharisees "Unless you believe that I am He - You will die in your sins". Thus for the non-elect their sins follow them into that most awful place. But for the Elect, their stripes were borne on the cross by their Savior.

The idea that Christ paid for every-ones sins is currently the liberal loophole to allow all forms of adultery and perversion into the church. The understanding that the Christ died for the sins of the whole world makes sense when you see that it is the Elect of the whole world otherwise Christ's words to the Pharisees makes no sense - for how would their sins jump off the cross and back onto them? No- their sins never left them but followed for eternity.

36 posted on 09/21/2009 11:30:16 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: NYer

Well, wait a minute.

I s’pose it depends on how one defines “hell”. I am averse to thinking of a cave-ridden dwelling face full of sulphur and flames. I believe the biblical idea of hell is truly defined as separation from God. Isn’t that what happened on the cross, evidenced by Christ’s cry of the Psalter “Why have you forsaken me?”

If indeed Christ was, for that time, forsaken by His Father, then how can one argue he wasn’t in hell?

My thoughts.


37 posted on 09/21/2009 11:31:17 AM PDT by Recovering_Democrat
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To: Iscool

no can do.


38 posted on 09/21/2009 11:32:22 AM PDT by pby
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To: NYer

bookmark


39 posted on 09/21/2009 11:37:08 AM PDT by jonno (Having an opinion is not the same as having the answer...)
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To: DManA
Answering half my sentence is the same as a lie. One more thing for Jesus to forgive.

I didn't have an issue with the other part of your statement (that the believer "takes on" the perfection of Christ); that's why I didn't address it. You seem to imply that Christ didn't need to take our sins if we take on his perfection. That is completely false.
40 posted on 09/21/2009 11:43:49 AM PDT by armydoc
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To: Recovering_Democrat; NYer
evidenced by Christ’s cry of the Psalter “Why have you forsaken me?”

Christ was not crying out in vain - he was citing Psalm 22 as a reference to verses 16 through 18: “They pierced My hands and My feet; I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. They divide My garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22

41 posted on 09/21/2009 11:45:15 AM PDT by Nikas777 (En touto nika, "In this, be victorious")
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To: Revelation 911

that is a lie.


42 posted on 09/21/2009 11:49:09 AM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion....the Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: Nikas777

Yes, I know.

He was also praying to his Father.

So...was he forsaken?


43 posted on 09/21/2009 11:52:21 AM PDT by Recovering_Democrat
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To: Ann Archy
tell ya what Ann- do a google search - something along the lines of "Mary Co-redeemer Pope Paul II" from the mouths of your own popes

That said - Calvin was merely taking the Catholic position on the Apostles creed and likewise held similar positions on infant baptism as well.

hanegraff is a tool

44 posted on 09/21/2009 11:55:33 AM PDT by Revelation 911 (How many 100's of 1000's of our servicemen died so we would never bow to a king?" -freeper pnh102)
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To: Recovering_Democrat
Yes, I know. He was also praying to his Father. So...was he forsaken?

Clearly, you do not know. He was not praying in this case. He was reciting prophetic scripture. He was saying he has carried out the prophesy.

45 posted on 09/21/2009 11:57:49 AM PDT by Nikas777 (En touto nika, "In this, be victorious")
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To: Revelation 911

Just because a Pope....any Pope says something, doesn’t make it so. ONLY when they are speaking for the CHURCH is it Infallible. PJPII had a very deep love and devotion to Mary.....he did not IDOLIZE her or WORSHIP her.


46 posted on 09/21/2009 12:00:51 PM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion....the Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: sr4402

Chrit’s suffering was big enough to pay for everyone’s sin, but the payment isn’t made for you unless you accept it.

How many ants would have to die to equal the death of a single human being? IMHO, the value of the lives of all the ants that have ever existed don’t equal the value of a single human being’s life.

The penalty for sin against God is death, and we are all sinners. How many human beings would have to die to equal in value God’s life? IMHO, if you added up all the lives of every human that ever lived, they still wouldn’t come close to equaling the life of God. Hence, when Jesus died on the cross, his death (since he was God) was more than enough to pay for the death penalty of every human being.

That doesn’t mean the payment is automatic. Each person still has to accept the payment. The offer is there if you want it, but God isn’t forcing anying to take it.


47 posted on 09/21/2009 12:05:47 PM PDT by Brookhaven (http://theconservativehand.blogspot.com/)
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To: Brookhaven
The offer is there if you want it, but God isn’t forcing anying to take it.

God the Father does not force, He draws: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him" John 6:44 and "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father" John 6:65

What does "No Man" mean to you?

Oh, and you ignored Jesus's words to the Pharisees and my question. How did the Pharisees sins jump back onto him if Christ paid for every-ones sins on the cross??

Take time to think before responding and reply with Scripture to the Scripture presented.

48 posted on 09/21/2009 12:14:01 PM PDT by sr4402
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To: DManA; NYer

Philippians 3:9 (New King James Version)
and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;


49 posted on 09/21/2009 12:19:10 PM PDT by boatbums (Not everything faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed unless it is faced.)
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To: Revelation 911

Here ya go.......

It is very necessary to understand what the Church means by such doctrines and what it does not mean. First of all the Church recognizes Jesus as our only redeemer—plain and simple. Only God could make up for an offense against His divinity. When Jesus, the second Person of the Blessed Trinity, became man, He used the services of several human beings. He used prophets, the last of whom was His cousin, John the Baptist. He used St. Joseph as His foster father to protect Him and be a father to Him in his formative years. Most of all, He used Mary as His mother who gave birth to Him, nursed Him, and nurtured Him as a child. All of these people co-operated with Him and His mission of salvation. He alone was the redeemer, but they co-operated with Him in His work of redemption. In varying degrees they all could be called co-redeemers because of such co-operation. But because of her unique role and the degree of her co-operation, Mary is singled out. In all of humanity, God singled her out for a truly sublime role. Nursing almighty God at her breast is beyond our ability to fully appreciate. Yet thousands of Christians since the Protestant reformation have completely ignored such sublimity.

What is said of co-redemptrix is also true of co-mediatrix. Because these terms can be highly mis-leading, the Church has not formalized them in any official doctrinal way. (See artical: http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/ORMARIA2.HTM) Nevertheless, God is the one who singled Mary out for the unique role in salvation that she has. She did not seek out such distinction. It is important to remember the high praise Jesus lavished on St. John the Baptist. Yet his mission was not nearly so exalted as Mary’s. Jesus worked His first miracle at her request. All she needed to say was: “They have no wine.” He understood exactly what she wanted. He could have taken care of the matter on His own. But He chose to have His mother’s intercession be a part of the mix. The miracle wasn’t any less significant because of her part in it. On the contrary, she shows us how accessible He is to our needs. To truly appreciate Mary is to appreciate her Son all the more.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.


50 posted on 09/21/2009 12:19:40 PM PDT by joe fonebone (I am racist, hear me roar....I don't give a crap anymore....)
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