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Archbishop Chaput Responds to Cardinal Cottier on the Notre Dame Controversy
Catholic News Agency ^ | 10/6/09

Posted on 10/06/2009 6:17:53 AM PDT by marshmallow

Vatican City, Oct 6, 2009 / 03:16 am (CNA).- The Italian daily Il Foglio published today an article entitled "L'ascia del vescovo pellerossa - Charles j. Chaput contro Notre Dame e l'illustre cardinale sedotto dall'abortista Obama" ("The ax of the Red Skin Bishop - Charles J. Chaput against Notre Dame and the illustrious cardinal seduced by the pro abortion Obama") in which the Archbishop of Denver contests some of the strongly pro-Obama assertions made by Cardinal Georges Cottier last July in the International Catholic Magazine “30 Days”.

Il Foglio is one of the most influential intellectual dailies in Italy, dedicated more at analyzing than covering the news. Its director is one of the most famous Italian contemporary thinkers, Giuliano Ferrara.

Despite being an agnostic, Ferrara is a long time admirer of the though of Joseph Ratzinger.

On its Tuesday edition, Il Foglio publishes a front page interview to Cardinal Francis George, and devotes the full third page to Archbishop Chaput’s comments to the original Cottier’s essay.

The Archbishop’ article, originally submitted under the more modest title of “Politics, Morality and a President: an American View,” focuses on what it meant to the Church in the US President’s Obama speech at the University of Notre Dame, which Cardinal Cottier, Theologian Emeritus of the Pontifical Household, described in 30 Days in a very positive light.

Here is the full text in English of Archbishop Chaput’s article published today in “Il Foglio”, exclusive from Catholic News Agency.

Politics, Morality and a President: an American View

One of the strengths of the Church is her global perspective. In that light, Cardinal Georges Cottier’s recent essay on President Barack Obama (“Politics, morality and original sin,” 30 Days, No. 5), made a valuable contribution to Catholic discussion of the new American president. Our faith connects us across borders. What happens in one nation may have an impact on many others. World opinion about America’s leaders is not only appropriate; it should be welcomed.

And yet, the world does not live and vote in the United States. Americans do. The pastoral realities of any country are best known by the local bishops who shepherd their people. Thus, on the subject of America’s leaders, the thoughts of an American bishop may have some value. They may augment the Cardinal’s good views by offering a different perspective.

Note that I speak here only for myself. I do not speak for the bishops of the United States as a body, nor for any other individual bishop. Nor will I address President Obama’s speech to the Islamic world, which Cardinal Cottier mentions in his own essay. That would require a separate discussion.

I will focus instead on the President’s graduation appearance at the University of Notre Dame, and Cardinal Cottier’s comments on the President’s thinking. I have two motives in doing so.

First, men and women from my own diocese belong to the national Notre Dame community as students, graduates and parents. Every bishop has a stake in the faith of the people in his care, and Notre Dame has never merely been a local Catholic university. It is an icon of the American Catholic experience. Second, when Notre Dame’s local bishop vigorously disagrees with the appearance of any speaker, and some 80 other bishops and 300,000 laypeople around the country publicly support the local bishop, then reasonable people must infer that a real problem exists with the speaker – or at least with his appearance at the disputed event. Reasonable people might further choose to defer to the judgment of those Catholic pastors closest to the controversy.

Regrettably and unintentionally, Cardinal Cottier’s articulate essay undervalues the gravity of what happened at Notre Dame. It also overvalues the consonance of President Obama’s thinking with Catholic teaching.

There are several key points to remember here.

First, resistance to President Obama’s appearance at Notre Dame had nothing to do with whether he is a good or bad man. He is obviously a gifted man. He has many good moral and political instincts, and an admirable devotion to his family. These things matter. But unfortunately, so does this: The President’s views on vital bioethical issues, including but not limited to abortion, differ sharply from Catholic teaching. This is why he has enjoyed the strong support of major “abortion rights” groups for many years. Much is made, in some religious circles, of the President’s sympathy for Catholic social teaching. But defense of the unborn child is a demand of social justice. There is no “social justice” if the youngest and weakest among us can be legally killed. Good programs for the poor are vital, but they can never excuse this fundamental violation of human rights.

Second, at a different moment and under different circumstances, the conflict at Notre Dame might have faded away if the university had simply asked the President to give a lecture or public address. But at a time when the American bishops as a body had already voiced strong concern about the new administration’s abortion policies, Notre Dame not only made the President the centerpiece of its graduation events, but also granted him an honorary doctorate of laws – this, despite his deeply troubling views on abortion law and related social issues.

The real source of Catholic frustration with President Obama’s appearance at Notre Dame was his overt, negative public voting and speaking record on abortion and other problematic issues. By its actions, Notre Dame ignored and violated the guidance of America’s bishops in their 2004 document, “Catholics in Political Life.” In that text, the bishops urged Catholic institutions to refrain from honoring public officials who disagreed with Church teaching on grave matters.

Thus, the fierce debate in American Catholic circles this spring over the Notre Dame honor for Mr. Obama was not finally about partisan politics. It was about serious issues of Catholic belief, identity and witness – triggered by Mr. Obama’s views -- which Cardinal Cottier, writing from outside the American context, may have misunderstood.

Third, the Cardinal wisely notes points of contact between President Obama’s frequently stated search for political “common ground” and the Catholic emphasis on pursing the “common good.” These goals – seeking common ground and pursuing the common good – can often coincide. But they are not the same thing. They can sharply diverge in practice. So-called “common ground” abortion policies may actually attack the common good because they imply a false unity; they create a ledge of shared public agreement too narrow and too weak to sustain the weight of a real moral consensus. The common good is never served by tolerance for killing the weak – beginning with the unborn.

Fourth, Cardinal Cottier rightly reminds his readers of the mutual respect and cooperative spirit required by citizenship in a pluralist democracy. But pluralism is never an end in itself. It is never an excuse for inaction. As President Obama himself acknowledged at Notre Dame, democracy depends for its health on people of conviction fighting hard in the public square for what they believe – peacefully, legally but vigorously and without apologies.

Unfortunately, the President also added the curious remark that “. . . the ultimate irony of faith is that it necessarily admits doubt . . . This doubt should not push us away from our faith. But it should humble us.” In a sense, of course, this is true: On this side of eternity, doubt is part of the human predicament. But doubt is the absence of something; it is not a positive value. Insofar as it inoculates believers from acting on the demands of faith, doubt is a fatal weakness.

The habit of doubt fits much too comfortably with a kind of “baptized unbelief;” a Christianity that is little more than a vague tribal loyalty and a convenient spiritual vocabulary. Too often in recent American experience, pluralism and doubt have become alibis for Catholic moral and political lethargy. Perhaps Europe is different. But I would suggest that our current historical moment -- which both European and American Catholics share -- is very far from the social circumstances facing the early Christian legislators mentioned by the Cardinal. They had faith, and they also had the zeal – tempered by patience and intelligence – to incarnate the moral content of their faith explicitly in culture. In other words, they were building a civilization shaped by Christian belief. Something very different is happening now.

Cardinal Cottier’s essay gives witness to his own generous spirit. I was struck in particular by his praise for President Obama’s “humble realism.” I hope he’s right. American Catholics want him to be right. Humility and realism are the soil where a commonsense, modest, human-scaled and moral politics can grow. Whether President Obama can provide this kind of leadership remains to be seen. We have a duty to pray for him -- so that he can, and does.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: archbishopchaput; catholic
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1 posted on 10/06/2009 6:17:54 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

Keep fighting the good fight Archbishop Chaput!


2 posted on 10/06/2009 6:24:56 AM PDT by frogjerk (Obama Administration: Security thru Absurdity)
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To: marshmallow
Cardinal Cottier’s essay gives witness to his own generous spirit. I was struck in particular by his praise for President Obama’s “humble realism.”

Talk about DELUSIONAL --Anybody that thinks Obama is humble needs a brain transplant
3 posted on 10/06/2009 6:34:11 AM PDT by uncbob
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To: marshmallow; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Ping!


4 posted on 10/06/2009 7:25:30 AM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: marshmallow

Archbishop Charles is well known for his political positions and his attempts to justify his own brand of secular politics with what he presents as Latin Church theology. Sadly for the American Latin Church, this very high profile prelate, whose opinions are surprisingly parochial for a hierarch of a universal particular church, is considered a true theological lightwieght.


5 posted on 10/06/2009 7:50:08 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: marshmallow

Archbishop Charles is well known for his political positions and his attempts to justify his own brand of secular politics with what he presents as Latin Church theology. Sadly for the American Latin Church, this very high profile prelate, whose opinions are surprisingly parochial for a hierarch of a universal particular church, is considered a true theological lightweight.


6 posted on 10/06/2009 7:50:17 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: marshmallow
But defense of the unborn child is a demand of social justice. There is no “social justice” if the youngest and weakest among us can be legally killed. Good programs for the poor are vital, but they can never excuse this fundamental violation of human rights.

Needs to be repeated, daily if not more often.

7 posted on 10/06/2009 8:00:00 AM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
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To: Kolokotronis

‘considered a lightweight’?? by whom? may I ask. I think he is one of the Great Thinkers in the (American) Catholic church today.


8 posted on 10/06/2009 8:04:32 AM PDT by bboop (Tar and feathers -- good back then, good now)
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To: marshmallow; All
Il Foglio article:
L’ascia del vescovo pellerossa
9 posted on 10/06/2009 8:09:24 AM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: marshmallow; NYer

Chaput:"Regrettably and unintentionally, Cardinal Cottier’s articulate essay undervalues the gravity of what happened at Notre Dame. Thus, the fierce debate in American Catholic circles this spring over the Notre Dame honor for Mr. Obama was not finally about partisan politics. It was about serious issues of Catholic belief, identity and witness – triggered by Mr. Obama’s views -- which Cardinal Cottier, writing from outside the American context, may have misunderstood."

Nice. European modernists sometimes miss the nuances of American politics and culture. Perhaps not being a native English speaker and not being familiar with South Chicago and Harvard affirmative action con artists who follow Sual Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, the cardinal may not have picked up on when Obama was smirking and being insincere in his Notre Dame address. But surely he should have noticed the banality of using a Notre Dame commencement to promote abortion and embryonic stem cell research on consecrated ground. They might want to give Cardinal Cottier an MRI just to check and be sure everything is working OK between the ears.

10 posted on 10/06/2009 8:14:22 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: bboop; Kolokotronis
‘considered a lightweight’?? by whom? may I ask.

LOL........let's play charades!!

Two words......first word......rhymes with "meek"..........sqeak........no.......beak.....no........Greek.....yes, yes!!!..........Greek, Greek.........second word.........begins with "O"........Obama......Greek Obama.........no, no............Greek Orthodox!!

Yes, that's it! Greek Orthodox!

Chaput is a theological lightweight to the Greek Orthodox!

11 posted on 10/06/2009 8:29:07 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: frogjerk
Unfortunately, the President also added the curious remark that “. . . the ultimate irony of faith is that it necessarily admits doubt . . . This doubt should not push us away from our faith. But it should humble us.” In a sense, of course, this is true: On this side of eternity, doubt is part of the human predicament. But doubt is the absence of something; it is not a positive value. Insofar as it inoculates believers from acting on the demands of faith, doubt is a fatal weakness.

Awesome, defeats the lie that doubt is a justification for not banning infanticide, "we don't really know for sure, so we have to allow it"

This is stated so clearly!
12 posted on 10/06/2009 8:32:01 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: bboop

“considered a lightweight’?? by whom? may I ask.”

Real theologians, both Latin and Eastern.

“I think he is one of the Great Thinkers in the (American) Catholic church today.”

Your comment speaks volumes about the level of thought in the American Catholic Church. What do you think about Archbishop Burke and that former Martino fellow?


13 posted on 10/06/2009 8:32:19 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: marshmallow

“Chaput is a theological lightweight to the Greek Orthodox!”

Indeed he is. Such a lightweight in fact that some of the EP’s theologians actually snicker when his name is mentioned, which in theological discussions with the likes of Cardinal Kaspar or the Pope is virtually never, I assure you.

Chaput’s problems are greater with the Vaticanistas, though, who allegedly feel that his sort needs slapping down, like they did with Martino.


14 posted on 10/06/2009 8:41:36 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: marshmallow

“Two words......first word......rhymes with “meek”..........sqeak........no.......beak.....no........Greek.....yes, yes!!!..........Greek, Greek.........second word.........begins with “O”........Obama......Greek Obama.........no, no............Greek Orthodox!!”

One of the great concerns of Orthodox Christians from all over the world regarding a reunion with Rome is the extent to which politics has infected the (at least to our eyes) very powerful American Church. Your comment reinforces the notion that the American Church really is more about secular politics, whether of the left or the right, than about Christian theosis.


15 posted on 10/06/2009 8:46:12 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
Indeed he is. Such a lightweight in fact that some of the EP’s theologians actually snicker when his name is mentioned, which in theological discussions with the likes of Cardinal Kaspar or the Pope is virtually never, I assure you. Chaput’s problems are greater with the Vaticanistas, though, who allegedly feel that his sort needs slapping down, like they did with Martino.

Well thanks for that insight into Vatican politics, Kolo. Please keep us in the loop.

Only one thing I don't get. If he's such a lightweight and nobody takes him seriously, there's no need for any of us to get bent out of shape at anything he says for it's unlikely to influence church policy, be it Orthodox or Catholic, in any way, right?

So why does he need "slapping down"?

Surely a waste of time and energy for somebody whom the heavy hitters completely ignore?

16 posted on 10/06/2009 8:54:06 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: Kolokotronis
One of the great concerns of Orthodox Christians from all over the world regarding a reunion with Rome is the extent to which politics has infected the (at least to our eyes) very powerful American Church. Your comment reinforces the notion that the American Church really is more about secular politics, whether of the left or the right, than about Christian theosis.

LOL.............the American Church which cut Teddy Kennedy and his fellow travelers so much slack and let them get away with ....*cough, gasp*.....murder for so long without so much as a murmur?

Is.......*splutter*.........too involved in secular politics??

That American Church???

What an absolute knee-slapping, side-splitting statement!!

If only it were true!

17 posted on 10/06/2009 9:06:49 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: marshmallow

for later


18 posted on 10/06/2009 9:09:56 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: marshmallow

“...there’s no need for any of us to get bent out of shape at anything he says for it’s unlikely to influence church policy, be it Orthodox or Catholic, in any way, right?”

Wrong, the embrace of political Catholicism in America hurts the entire Church. It speaks volumes, as do the comments on this thread and, to be fair, the same sort of comments on left wing sites, that so may of you Latins measure the “orthodoxy” of the teachings of your hierarchs by their political pronouncements. We have to assume that what really motivates the movers and shakers in the American Latin Church are either right wing loudmouths like Chaput and formerly Martino, or nuns in pantsuits demonstrating for abortion rights or doing a pathetic imitation of vestal virgins in LA. People like Chaput won’t influence Latin Church policy on the transnational level, like I said, he’s considered a joke, but his actions do make trouble for the Vatican at a number of levels, among them in relation to the Orthodox precisely because he, like the nuns in pantsuits, gives voice to a mindset which is foreign, indeed antithetical to what we see as a Christian phronema. We won’t have anything to do with that.


19 posted on 10/06/2009 9:10:23 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: marshmallow

” Is.......*splutter*.........too involved in secular politics??

That American Church???

What an absolute knee-slapping, side-splitting statement!!

If only it were true!”

Indeed.


20 posted on 10/06/2009 9:12:51 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
I'm picking up mixed messages here, Kolo.

1. He's a lightweight and nobody listens to him.

2. He's making trouble for the entire Church.

Help me out here.

21 posted on 10/06/2009 9:15:13 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: Kolokotronis

Should the Church not be involved with the abortion issue at all, in your view?


22 posted on 10/06/2009 9:28:43 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480

“Should the Church not be involved with the abortion issue at all, in your view?”

Politically? No. Should The Church properly catechize its people on what The Faith says about abortion? Yes.


23 posted on 10/06/2009 9:30:56 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis

So no Catholic involvement in the March for Life?


24 posted on 10/06/2009 9:33:09 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: marshmallow

Based on the status of Catholicism in most European countries, one would think that their prelates would be the *last* ones anyone would listen to on such issues. When it comes to moral gravitas, they are almost completely exhausted. Rome will have to bring in the SSPX eventually because no one else will even claim to be Catholic by the time the liberal European bishops are done.


25 posted on 10/06/2009 9:33:35 AM PDT by Antoninus (Sarah Palin -- I love her because she freaks out all the right people.)
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To: Kolokotronis
Archbishop Charles is well known for his political positions and his attempts to justify his own brand of secular politics with what he presents as Latin Church theology.

Thus says the Dukakis voter... Sigh.
26 posted on 10/06/2009 9:34:14 AM PDT by Antoninus (Sarah Palin -- I love her because she freaks out all the right people.)
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To: marshmallow

“I’m picking up mixed messages here, Kolo.

1. He’s a lightweight and nobody listens to him.

2. He’s making trouble for the entire Church.

Help me out here.”

1. He is a theological lightweight, a joke frankly, among theologians. That’s simply a fact, though he may be an effective shill for American rightist politics.

2. He is listened to by American Catholics, mostly lay people but also a handful of equally politicized hierarchs, who measure the orthodoxy of theology by a secular, American political standard. That causes trouble for the whole Church.


27 posted on 10/06/2009 9:36:09 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Pyro7480

“So no Catholic involvement in the March for Life?”

Of your hierarchs, or ours for that matter? No, despite what the Metropolitan of the OCA might think, but I say that only because the pro life movement has been highjacked by the political right.


28 posted on 10/06/2009 9:38:34 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
2. He is listened to by American Catholics, mostly lay people but also a handful of equally politicized hierarchs, who measure the orthodoxy of theology by a secular, American political standard. That causes trouble for the whole Church.

Sorry, brother. But I'm afraid your opinions have lost almost all of their authority with me. And they used to have a lot.
29 posted on 10/06/2009 9:38:59 AM PDT by Antoninus (Sarah Palin -- I love her because she freaks out all the right people.)
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To: Antoninus

“Thus says the Dukakis voter... Sigh.”

Exactly...and my vote for Dukakis was motivated by ethnic interests, not religious. Had I measured Dukakis by an Orthodox standard, I wouldn’t have voted for him. Similarly, I didn’t measure the “orthodoxy” of my Orthodoxy by what a person like Dukakis stood for.


30 posted on 10/06/2009 9:41:31 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Antoninus

“Sorry, brother. But I’m afraid your opinions have lost almost all of their authority with me. And they used to have a lot.”

I’m sure we will both survive. The next time you hear someone trumpeting a reunion with the Orthodox Church, remember this discussion and what it says about an Orthodox mindset.


31 posted on 10/06/2009 9:43:18 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
I’m sure we will both survive. The next time you hear someone trumpeting a reunion with the Orthodox Church, remember this discussion and what it says about an Orthodox mindset.

I have learned a lot about the so-called Orthodox mindset, both from you and from others I have known who call themselves such. And it greatly saddens me.

No doubt Our Lord weeps as well. National pride. Ethnic pride. Cultural pride. Over Christian love, forgiveness, and unity. Pathetic.


32 posted on 10/06/2009 9:48:35 AM PDT by Antoninus (Sarah Palin -- I love her because she freaks out all the right people.)
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To: Kolokotronis
Exactly...and my vote for Dukakis was motivated by ethnic interests, not religious. Had I measured Dukakis by an Orthodox standard, I wouldn’t have voted for him. Similarly, I didn’t measure the “orthodoxy” of my Orthodoxy by what a person like Dukakis stood for.

I pray that the insanity of that position is someday made manifest to you.
33 posted on 10/06/2009 9:50:19 AM PDT by Antoninus (Sarah Palin -- I love her because she freaks out all the right people.)
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To: Kolokotronis; marshmallow
Archbishop Charles is well known for his political positions and his attempts to justify his own brand of secular politics with what he presents as Latin Church theology. Sadly for the American Latin Church, this very high profile prelate, whose opinions are surprisingly parochial for a hierarch of a universal particular church, is considered a true theological lightweight.

Considered by whom?

34 posted on 10/06/2009 9:53:59 AM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: Antoninus

“I pray that the insanity of that position is someday made manifest to you.”

There were family reasons too, having to do with his mother mostly, but I doubt that will make any difference to you.


35 posted on 10/06/2009 9:56:14 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Antoninus

“No doubt Our Lord weeps as well. National pride. Ethnic pride. Cultural pride. Over Christian love, forgiveness, and unity. Pathetic.”

Please do us all a favor and tell every Latin you know, hierarch, clergy or laity, what truly awful people we are. That, if you can influence enough people, might actually make a difference and Rome will stop lusting after the Orthodox Church. We’ll make it alone, we always have. Let’s face it, A, Rome needs us a lot more than we need Rome.


36 posted on 10/06/2009 10:00:38 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; bboop; marshmallow
by whom? may I ask.” Real theologians, both Latin and Eastern.

You know this, of course, because _________________ (fill in the blank). The real theologians, Latin and Eastern, who have made this comment are: ______________, ___________, _______________, (feel free to add more lines).

37 posted on 10/06/2009 10:02:54 AM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: Kolokotronis
Please do us all a favor and tell every Latin you know, hierarch, clergy or laity, what truly awful people we are.

No. The sad fact is that we love you, despite your flaws. I only wish you all could return the favor. But apparently, that is not to be for now. All in God's time.
38 posted on 10/06/2009 10:10:19 AM PDT by Antoninus (Sarah Palin -- I love her because she freaks out all the right people.)
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To: uncbob

Thank you!!! My thought exactly.


39 posted on 10/06/2009 10:36:06 AM PDT by EDINVA (Obama CAN'T see the Olympics from his back porch !)
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To: Kolokotronis
Rome needs us a lot more than we need Rome

Rome doesn't "need" you at all.

What both Rome and Constantinople "need" is to obey the Lord's clear command in John 17:20-23. No amount of pride can justify doing otherwise.

40 posted on 10/06/2009 10:43:31 AM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
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To: Kolokotronis; marshmallow

Rather than “hijacked”, I’d say the pro life movement was a political orphan till it was adopted by the right. I am not about to kid myself that the segment of the political establishment self-identifying as right wing gives a flip about abortion as a matter of natural law or civil rights: for them it’s boob bait for the bubbas.

The GOP has historically had a very substantial pro-abortion membership (let’s not forget who appointed Justice Blackmun to the SCOTUS, and whose National Security Advisor produced a National Security Memorandum declaring abortion to be “vital” to US interests).

There is no political home for right-wingers in this country, perhaps because there’s almost no true right wing. Catholics are natural right-wingers, but in America their political perception is clouded by centuries of cohabitation with protestants.

It is perfectly fine for politically active lay Catholics to proclaim themselves as such; indeed, it’s an evangelical duty. We lay people are the ones who have to live in the world and promote its sanctification. The clergy serve in a different sphere. Yes, there’s no lack of Catholic clergy in the March for Life (probably plenty of Orthodox as well). Is this hypocritical or un-american? I don’t think so. Taking it to the streets is an extraordinary expedient, to meet an extraordinary need. It’s not at all the same as having priests running for office or accepting secular positions in business.

I’ve no idea of Archbishop Chaput’s credentials as a theologian. Given the unserious formation and environment now prevailing, not to mention the process by which non-clubbable men are culled from the lists of priest marked for early promotion, I don’t expect anyone in the American hierarchy to resemble an Old Testament prophet, much as I’d enjoy the prospect. As for Chaputs’s politics, he’s a citizen and entitled to his views. I’ve never heard him accused of partisanship, and I hope he’s shrewd enough to avoid being co-opted by those interested in the Church only as a flag of convenience.


41 posted on 10/06/2009 10:48:49 AM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
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To: Kolokotronis
It comes down to only one theologian on earth. Everything else is an opinion among many.

Real theologians, both Latin and Eastern.

I switched to the new artificial theologians, less fat, cholesterol, and sugar.

Any liberal who reads a pamphlet on the rosary they found in a puddle is a "real" theologian. They exist, are not imaginary and have studied some theology. When you preface a authority with the word "real" it loses meaning.

I would rather use my discernment. Someone who has voted for Duckass because of family and ethic reasons, thinks defending infants from infanticide is not worth doing because others are involved, and feels a reunified Church would mean giving up control of their little part of a fractured Body of Christ is not an opinion that matters.
42 posted on 10/06/2009 10:56:39 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Kolokotronis
He is listened to by American Catholics, mostly lay people but also a handful of equally politicized hierarchs, who measure the orthodoxy of theology by a secular, American political standard. That causes trouble for the whole Church.

Before I sign off here, it's worth noting that there is no area of human endeavor or activity which does not fall within the Church's purview. That includes political and civic affairs. It especially includes political affairs. It applies in spades to the defense of human life. In so far as there is a moral aspect to all human activity, the Church is perfectly within its rights to measure these against the Christian Gospel and provide moral guidance just as John the Baptist told the secular leader of his own time that it was not right for him to sleep with his brother's wife.

You have it half right. Politics should not infect the Church. The Church should infect politics. There is no area of human life where there is no room for the Gospel. To say otherwise is to lay the foundations for the terrible secularism, otherwise known as the "separation" of Church and state which has wrought such havoc to this country.

43 posted on 10/06/2009 11:55:10 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: Dominick

“Someone who has voted for Duckass because of family and ethic reasons, thinks defending infants from infanticide is not worth doing because others are involved, and feels a reunified Church would mean giving up control of their little part of a fractured Body of Christ is not an opinion that matters.”

Well, you see, your hierarchs and indeed your Pope care very much what the Orthodox attitude is, even mine, but you of course are free to work to create your own version of The Church, no matter what your non American politician hierarchs think. Better yet, like I said, tell everyone what awful people we are and then perhaps the reunion nonsense will stop. Why not go chasing after your own disobedient kids, the Protestants?


44 posted on 10/06/2009 12:14:48 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Campion

“Rome doesn’t “need” you at all.”

Of course it does. Rome is quite frank about that.

“What both Rome and Constantinople “need” is to obey the Lord’s clear command in John 17:20-23.”

Surely you are not suggesting that Orthodoxy succumb to the World and jump on the political bandwagon of the likes of Burke or Chaput or Martino? Is God now endorsing American politics so long as it is spouted from a Latin rite bishop?


45 posted on 10/06/2009 12:23:21 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Antoninus

“No. The sad fact is that we love you, despite your flaws.”

No you don’t; you are infatuated, not in love. If you want to be one with us, let Rome put aside its innovations, reject the World and become Orthodox.


46 posted on 10/06/2009 12:26:18 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Romulus

“It is perfectly fine for politically active lay Catholics to proclaim themselves as such; indeed, it’s an evangelical duty.”

Absolutely

“We lay people are the ones who have to live in the world and promote its sanctification.”

Agreed; and I will add that the political activity of the laity should be informed by The Faith.

“As for Chaputs’s politics, he’s a citizen and entitled to his views.”

Fine; but his political views are not a measure of Christian orthodoxy and through his simplistic theology they should not be presented as such. The laity, as we see here, is all too ready to measure theology and The Faith exactly that way!

“I hope he’s shrewd enough to avoid being co-opted by those interested in the Church only as a flag of convenience.”

We’ll see. Neither Burke nor Martino were and now we see Chaput going after a highly respected Vatican theologian and Cardinal. Sometimes I wonder if some of your bishops aren’t preparing to “go it alone”.


47 posted on 10/06/2009 12:37:53 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
Rome is quite frank about that.

Thanks, but I don't really need you to interpret "Rome" for me.

Surely you are not suggesting

I meant exactly what I said. Christian unity is commanded by Christ himself; schism is the result of sin.

Orthodoxy has "succumbed to the world" over and over again. Usually it was the Pope of Rome who pulled your chestnuts out of the fire. cf Iconoclasm, Monophysitism, Arianism, etc.

48 posted on 10/06/2009 12:51:37 PM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
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To: Kolokotronis
Neither Burke nor Martino were

I never saw Burke or Martino as having been co-opted. They were being bishops: teaching and laying down the law. The fact that their doing so was politically inconvenient to one side doesn't make them tools or partisans. Are you suggesting their enforcement of discipline was selective? I'd need to see some evidence of that.

49 posted on 10/06/2009 1:02:12 PM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
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To: Campion

“Usually it was the Pope of Rome who pulled your chestnuts out of the fire.”

Up to the 8th century you are absolutely right...and you have seen me say exactly that on multiple occasions. Since the 8th century, and especially since the 11th century, having broken with the Patriarchates of the East, Rome has lived another life altogether.


50 posted on 10/06/2009 1:31:47 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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