Posted on 10/11/2009 6:56:59 AM PDT by OneVike
special thanks to hanna548 for the artwork
There is a disturbing trend that has taken hold of the modern day Christian community, and it is my opinion that this trend is causing a schism as big as the one that was addressed at the Council of Nicea over the Trinity. Now this is not a debate for those who have no faith in Christ, for what accord has Christ with Belial? No, this is strictly a debate for those who profess Christ as their Lord and Savior. Unfortunately, those who attempt to address the problem are usually labeled as rabble-rousers who only wish to spread discontent within the ranks of Christendom. This trend I speak of, is the compromising of the Word with the idea of evolution known as theistic evolution or Old Earth Creationism. I say “compromise”, because in the 150 years since Darwin offered his theory of evolution, the only side in the argument that has offered to compromise its position has been the Christian side. I have yet to see the evolutionary camp temper it's teachings to include God anywhere in the equation of creation.
If I am wrong, then I challenge someone to prove to me that the godless Darwinists have ever compromised their position on evolution. If anything they have stiffened their resolve to convert all mankind to their atheistic system that excludes a Creator other than random chance. The evolutionary thinkers are not struggling to find a way to harmonize the events of Genesis 1-11 with the words of Darwin or Stephen J. Gould. They are beating the drum of "science" versus "religion" so loud that they cannot hear the evidence that some Christian apologists would try to get them to consider. Too often, those who present any evidence that makes a case for the Biblical account of creation are even ridiculed by Christians who believe in theistic evolution. In many cases they are ridiculed in the same way the ungodly Darwinists ridicule them. Well allow me to present a few reasons why I do not have enough faith to believe in the OEC's theistic evolutionary theory.
As I said, my article is not directed at anyone who does not claim to be a Christian, so I will not be addressing the scientific or geological particulars of evolution or of space and time. This is strictly a debate between Christians who claim to be Biblical “Young Earth Creationists”, and Christians who hold to the views of “Old Earth Creationism”, “Theistic evolutionism”, or the “Gap Theory”. However, before I present my reasons why I believe these beliefs are all wrong, I must distinguish the difference between "Macro-Evolution", and "Micro- Evolution".
Micro-evolution is not really evolution at all, it is just the simple variation within a species. What scientists describe as the prominence of genes being displayed within that species. This is what allows a family to have one child with blond hair and blue eyes, while the other has brown hair and brown eyes. The children have not evolved (they are still human), they simply differ in their dominant genes. In like manner, Christian micro-evolutionists believe that all dogs in the world today have evolved within the species from two dogs Noah brought onto the Ark, and all canines would be similar to every other animal of that species existing on the planet today.
Macro-evolution on the other hand refers to major evolutionary changes over time, the origin of new types of organisms from previously existing, but different, ancestral types. Examples of this would be fish descending from an invertebrate animal, or whales descending from a land mammal. The evolutionary concept demands these bizarre changes, and this is the bases for which Darwin's theory has been propagated.
Now back to my reasons for disagreeing with theistic evolutionists. I find it sad that any Christian who would claim to hold to the truths of the Scriptures, could then turn around and say that they question the most basic and foundational truths revealed in the Scriptures such as: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" Genesis 1:1. In doing so, they are not merely questioning the curious mechanics and unique events of the creation week, but they are debating the very words and message of that week. Furthermore, to deny God created everything through Christ in a normal 6-day period is to question the very character and nature of God. It attributes to Him the evil, wasteful, chaotic, random, purposeless, death-filled processes of evolutionary "creation", that would make Him (God) the very Author and Sustainer of all that the theory of evolution demands. In my opinion those who attribute to the power of Satan any miracles which Christ performed, or generally those works which are the result of the Holy Spirit, are in danger of committing Blasphemy. Matthew 12:31-32; Mark 3:28-29; Luke 12:10
Another disturbing fact about having a belief in theistic evolution, would be the denial of the doctrine of Original Sin. Think about it, if suffering, death, and extinction are inevitable components of the evolutionary process, then it only follows that the doctrine of Original Sin makes no sense. Humans would had to have evolved into a world that was already filled with suffering and other forms of imperfection, such as hurricanes, floods, pain, and suffering. Ultimately, death would not be a punishment for sin because death would had to have always been a part of the cycle of life wich would have been needed for evolution to exist on earth. Taken to its inevitable conclusion, if humans are not responsible for suffering and evil, but instead death is simply a natural process rather than a punishment, what need is there for atonement and redemption? After all if man is not responsible for sin as the Bible says, then the Bible is wrong, and if the Bible is wrong why live by it's precepts?
Now I need to address the debate over the Hebrew word “Yom” or יום. Those who disagree with the literal translation of the Bible that claims God created everything in six literal earth days, use the argument that “yom” is sometimes used to describe an age or an era. I offer six reasons theistic evolutionists and OEC's are wrong in their interpretation of the record of Genesis.
1.) Moses repeats, “And there was evening and there was morning, one day” Genesis 1:5, Genesis 1:8, Genesis 1:13, Genesis 1:19, Genesis 1:23, Genesis 1:31.
2.) In the context of a 24 hour day, Moses again defines what he means by ”yom”, “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy” Exodus 20:11; Exodus 31:17.
3.) The Hebrew word for day, or “yom”, is used 1480 times in the Old Testament, and it is translated by some different 50 words. It can mean an indefinite time, but it is not used as an age of millions or billions of years. When "yom" is used with a numerical adjective, it always refers to a literal 24 hour day.
4.) The Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament, the “Septuagint”, uses "hemera" or ἡμέρα, which normally means a 24 hour day such as, “And He was in the wilderness forty days”, not forty ages or eras. Mark 1:13.
5.) Furthermore, if Moses meant a period of long eons or ages, then the translators should have used the Greek word, "aion" or αἰών. which is the word Christ used when he gave His followers their marching orders for the great commission in Matthew12:20
“teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen
"Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her." And Jesus answered and said to them, "Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH SO THEN THEY ARE NO LONGER TWO, BUT ONE FLESH. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
So, from this exchange you can see that Jesus obviously agreed with Moses in his interpretation of the creation story, thus rejecting macro evolution and the Old Earth theory. Jesus specifically said, “from the beginning He made them”. He did not say, “In the beginning he started the process”. Jesus believed there was a definite beginning and that Moses did not write an allegorical story because the Israelites were to primitive to understand the truth. So if Jesus said so, why would anyone want to disagree with Him?
Also, those of you who are proponents of theistic evolution are walking a very thin line, because you also must deny the very existence of the Trinity.
”For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.” John 5:7
”In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Genesis 1:1
“yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him” 1 Corinthians 8:6
”He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.” Colossians 1:15-17
“You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the earth.” Psalm 104:30
”And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.” Genesis 1:2.
The Scriptures, and an understanding of the texts, should be enough to prove to Christians that the Bible is right. When it comes to the debate with the godless Darwinists, we Christians are living in great times. Every day we find more evidence that proves the Scriptures are historically, archeologically, and scientifically correct. Now is not the time for us Christians to compromise our faith in God, for ultimately that is how we will be judged. Do you have enough faith in God to believe He is who He says He is, and that he can do what He said He would do? The faith of a mustard seed is all you need to throw a mountain into the sea, could you imagine the trembling of the Godless if we Christians had such faith?
I pray that those who have ears to hear will hear His voice and call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Amen
Personally, though I tend to fall in with the YEC crowd, I believe there is room for debate on some of the points you are bringing up. The well-known 6,000 year chronology of the Bible only takes us back to Adam, the first man. Beyond that, we have a few paragraphs of Genesis, and some other assorted verses with which to try to patch together what occured before the era of man.
It seems obvious to me that the angels were created before man, yet I do not know exactly when this occurred. Yet, as Satan appears in the Garden, seemingly fulfilling the role of “the Accuser” in the earliest days of man, it seems sensible to believe his fall occured before the 6 days of creation, which I believe are literal days and not eras.
If there seems to be some history regarding God’s angelic creation that is not yet fully revealed to us, and if we can make a reasonable assumption from Scripture that some important events involved in that creation occured before the era of man, then I don’t see grounds to condemn anyone simply for speculating about the possibilities of previous creations or cataclysms.
However, I think, even if one theorizs some life may have existed before the Genesis creation event, that life must surely (excluding the angels) have been extinguished before the current creation. So, I believe those who attempt to use “gap theory” to give a more ancient lineage to man or beasts currently living, must be mistaken in that regard.
I wasn’t being specific, just observing that, in order for something to disobey God, I think he would logically have to first create something with the ability to choose to obey or disobey Him.
God created evil.
You’re misconstruing the argument. Creating something with the capacity for choice is not equivalent to the creation of the consequence of that choice. Had nothing chosen to disobey God, then evil would not exist.
James 1:14,15 explains the steps that lead to sin and death. And It doesn’t involve blaming God.
It meaning is rather simple: to have an understanding of a thing by experience or involvement or to experience it in a different way. An example is the phrase, “Adam knew Eve, his wife.”, and the promise that their ‘eyes would be opened and they would KNOW good and bad like God’.
I believe < 100,000 years ago. I believe there are gaps in the geneology given in Genesis.
Compromise? Obviously the universe came into being somehow. Only one position (at most) can be true. If God did use a long-term evolutionary process, then that would not be a "compromise" position, it would be the correct one, and all other positions (godless chance, YEC, etc.) would be false.
Now back to my reasons for disagreeing with theistic evolutionists. I find it sad that any Christian who would claim to hold to the truths of the Scriptures, could then turn around and say that they question the most basic and foundational truths revealed in the Scriptures such as: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" Genesis 1:1.
Lame. Neither Darwinism nor theistic evolution have anything to do with creation of the universe.
Furthermore, to deny God created everything through Christ in a normal 6-day period is to question the very character and nature of God. It attributes to Him the evil, wasteful, chaotic, random, purposeless, death-filled processes of evolutionary "creation", that would make Him (God) the very Author and Sustainer of all that the theory of evolution demands.
Ridiculous. If God were directing it, it would not be random or purposeless, and to call the acts of God "evil" is blasphemous. This is pretty much where I quit reading.
Oh, I’m in agreement with you. Perhaps you could explain it to ColdWater though, as he seems to think “God created evil”.
I agree the closest 'date' we can affix with what information we are given is how long ago 'the' Adam was formed. But remember what we are told about 'the' Adam's forming, he was not alive until the 'breath of life' which means soul, was breathed into his nostrils. We are not told when 'the' Adam's soul/spirit was formed/created. And given what other writers penned, and Christ Himself said regarding the existence of the soul/spirit before it gets place at conception in the 'flesh', comes from 'above' and when the flesh dies the soul/spirit returns to the Maker that sent it.
It seems obvious to me that the angels were created before man, yet I do not know exactly when this occurred. Yet, as Satan appears in the Garden, seemingly fulfilling the role of “the Accuser” in the earliest days of man, it seems sensible to believe his fall occured before the 6 days of creation, which I believe are literal days and not eras.
No one can state with a certainty when 'Lucifer' was created, but as Ezekiel 28:-12- describes him to have been created in the full pattern of beauty. And Revelation 12:4 "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,......" is history that took place that led up to what we are told in Genesis 1:2. Paul references this time period in Ephesians 1:4 According as He hath chosen (election) us in Him *before* the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love. 5)Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.
So *before* the foundation of the world, which is actually a verb meaning 'casting down' - 'overthrow' some were chosen/elected as the word predestinated means foreordained.
Paul describes this 'predestination' in Romans 9:11-13, as Paul is not describing the flesh of Jacob and Esau but their soul/spirit before then were born in flesh.
If there seems to be some history regarding God’s angelic creation that is not yet fully revealed to us, and if we can make a reasonable assumption from Scripture that some important events involved in that creation occured before the era of man, then I don’t see grounds to condemn anyone simply for speculating about the possibilities of previous creations or cataclysms.
I am reminded of the children fresh out of Egypt were afraid to see the face of the Heavenly Father because that to them meant they had died. And yet when the situation required the Heavenly Father sent 'messengers' to get His WORD to the flesh. One more example of the Heavenly Father telling us about what we cannot physically see unless He intends for us to see is found in IIKings 6:11-19 in particular verse 17 And Elisha prayed, and said, "LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see." And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
However, I think, even if one theorizs some life may have existed before the Genesis creation event, that life must surely (excluding the angels) have been extinguished before the current creation. So, I believe those who attempt to use “gap theory” to give a more ancient lineage to man or beasts currently living, must be mistaken in that regard.
Personally the phrase 'gap theory', is not a term/phrase that comes to my mind in referencing 'time' before or even after Genesis 1:3. Over the years in my studying what the WORD instructs, I cannot find the Heavenly Father had any gaps. What I have found is that He planted the seeds of His truth through out the WORD, and none of it is a contradiction.
Modern day science as it’s practiced and promoted, has become religious.
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Wow. All modern day science has become religious? Not a single scientific effort made today is actually scientific?
Do you think that might be a bit of an overstatement?
"While “the ways of the world” implies the secular world, This article seems to make no mention of obviously money-grubbing TV preachers, and other dubious groups masquerading as “religion” as also contributing to the demise of religion.
"In my opinion, those providing “false” religion are more of a threat that those that are secular. “false” religion does more to turn people away than the secular does to lure people away from conservative religion - and having a pool of non-religious folks offers the promise of enlightenment that can and should drive the faithful. ~ #21 RFEngineer
I think the internal debate (YEC vs OEC, geo vs heliocentrists, Flood vs. Not really a worldwide flood, etc) is great. It doesn't happen enough... and I wish this thread would really delve into it. ~ #74 whattajoke
IMO, the most enlightened / knowledgeable debates go on HERE
No, because I didn’t say what you’re asking, not did I imply it.
Evos need to stop reading into things and extrapolating what things they can out of in in their bid to ridicule creationists.
I can think of almost nothing that evos have twisted trying to make creationists look bad.
But then, evos are good at extrapolating and stretching things, otherwise, there would be no way they could justify their interpretation of the fossil record.
So, are you going to answer the question of *Why*?
You are an evolutionist. Everyone knows where you stand.
Why do you consider it so great that there is an internal debate between YEC and OEC?
Why do you think that it doesn't happen enough?
Why do you wish this thread would really delve into it?
What do you hope to gain from a debate like that considering your evolutionist views?
Are you hoping to learn something?
OK. Perhaps i should have asked, what did you mean when you wrote “Modern day science as it’s practiced and promoted, has become religious” in post 54 of this thread?
It is open to considerable interpretation. One of which was mine that you have now rejected as inaccurate. I’m fine with that; I am now simply looking for understanding of your words.
Strictly biological evolution is science. Adding a metaphysical interpretive component (philosohy) to that limited area of scientific study, takes it out of the scientific realm making it scientism / evolutionism, also known as Philsophical Naturalism, and THAT is a religion.
I suspect that he knows that if people don't know the right questions to ask, they'll never get the right answers. :)
You may want to spend some time HERE. After that, you might come up with some different questions. bttt
The Gap theory may be a ploy of evolutionary religious people to justify their belief that their ancestors were warthogs and such; but as I pointed out in post #62, there is indication of a 'gap' where the heavens and earth that once were, were destroyed, along will ALL physical life that may have existed...
We know that the 'prince of this world' was cast out of heaven and seeks who he may devour on this earth...We don't know when he was cast out...
Anyway, that's the Gap theory that I am referring to...NOT evolution...But life in some form that existed on earth before Gen. 1:2 that was completely destroyed and became without form and void...
Interestingly, the KJV translators with respect to Noah in the command to start over used the term replenish the earth...They used the same term when speaking of Adam...Replenish the earth...Fill again...
But like I said, it's a theory...It sure would help explain a lot of things...
We’ll continue to try and maintain hope that the water soaks in.
“But like I said, it’s a theory...It sure would help explain a lot of things...”
Yes, I think that’s important to keep in mind. There may be suggestions of these things in the Bible, but I haven’t really seen enough clear cut evidence to say that, for example, dinosaurs existed only before the current creation. It may be a useful theory to explain some things we observe in nature, but then again it raises other questions.
For example, if corporeal life begins in the 6 day creation, then we can assume all fossils have arisen since then, and we have a concrete timeline to work with as we attempt to explain that physical evidence. However, if we do not know when the first animals lived on earth, then we don’t know when the first fossils originated. Instead of assuming much of the fossil record was laid down in Noah’s flood, we would have to admit that the layers from Noah’s flood could be located much higher in the geological column.
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