Posted on 10/11/2009 6:56:59 AM PDT by OneVike
special thanks to hanna548 for the artwork
There is a disturbing trend that has taken hold of the modern day Christian community, and it is my opinion that this trend is causing a schism as big as the one that was addressed at the Council of Nicea over the Trinity. Now this is not a debate for those who have no faith in Christ, for what accord has Christ with Belial? No, this is strictly a debate for those who profess Christ as their Lord and Savior. Unfortunately, those who attempt to address the problem are usually labeled as rabble-rousers who only wish to spread discontent within the ranks of Christendom. This trend I speak of, is the compromising of the Word with the idea of evolution known as theistic evolution or Old Earth Creationism. I say “compromise”, because in the 150 years since Darwin offered his theory of evolution, the only side in the argument that has offered to compromise its position has been the Christian side. I have yet to see the evolutionary camp temper it's teachings to include God anywhere in the equation of creation.
If I am wrong, then I challenge someone to prove to me that the godless Darwinists have ever compromised their position on evolution. If anything they have stiffened their resolve to convert all mankind to their atheistic system that excludes a Creator other than random chance. The evolutionary thinkers are not struggling to find a way to harmonize the events of Genesis 1-11 with the words of Darwin or Stephen J. Gould. They are beating the drum of "science" versus "religion" so loud that they cannot hear the evidence that some Christian apologists would try to get them to consider. Too often, those who present any evidence that makes a case for the Biblical account of creation are even ridiculed by Christians who believe in theistic evolution. In many cases they are ridiculed in the same way the ungodly Darwinists ridicule them. Well allow me to present a few reasons why I do not have enough faith to believe in the OEC's theistic evolutionary theory.
As I said, my article is not directed at anyone who does not claim to be a Christian, so I will not be addressing the scientific or geological particulars of evolution or of space and time. This is strictly a debate between Christians who claim to be Biblical “Young Earth Creationists”, and Christians who hold to the views of “Old Earth Creationism”, “Theistic evolutionism”, or the “Gap Theory”. However, before I present my reasons why I believe these beliefs are all wrong, I must distinguish the difference between "Macro-Evolution", and "Micro- Evolution".
Micro-evolution is not really evolution at all, it is just the simple variation within a species. What scientists describe as the prominence of genes being displayed within that species. This is what allows a family to have one child with blond hair and blue eyes, while the other has brown hair and brown eyes. The children have not evolved (they are still human), they simply differ in their dominant genes. In like manner, Christian micro-evolutionists believe that all dogs in the world today have evolved within the species from two dogs Noah brought onto the Ark, and all canines would be similar to every other animal of that species existing on the planet today.
Macro-evolution on the other hand refers to major evolutionary changes over time, the origin of new types of organisms from previously existing, but different, ancestral types. Examples of this would be fish descending from an invertebrate animal, or whales descending from a land mammal. The evolutionary concept demands these bizarre changes, and this is the bases for which Darwin's theory has been propagated.
Now back to my reasons for disagreeing with theistic evolutionists. I find it sad that any Christian who would claim to hold to the truths of the Scriptures, could then turn around and say that they question the most basic and foundational truths revealed in the Scriptures such as: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" Genesis 1:1. In doing so, they are not merely questioning the curious mechanics and unique events of the creation week, but they are debating the very words and message of that week. Furthermore, to deny God created everything through Christ in a normal 6-day period is to question the very character and nature of God. It attributes to Him the evil, wasteful, chaotic, random, purposeless, death-filled processes of evolutionary "creation", that would make Him (God) the very Author and Sustainer of all that the theory of evolution demands. In my opinion those who attribute to the power of Satan any miracles which Christ performed, or generally those works which are the result of the Holy Spirit, are in danger of committing Blasphemy. Matthew 12:31-32; Mark 3:28-29; Luke 12:10
Another disturbing fact about having a belief in theistic evolution, would be the denial of the doctrine of Original Sin. Think about it, if suffering, death, and extinction are inevitable components of the evolutionary process, then it only follows that the doctrine of Original Sin makes no sense. Humans would had to have evolved into a world that was already filled with suffering and other forms of imperfection, such as hurricanes, floods, pain, and suffering. Ultimately, death would not be a punishment for sin because death would had to have always been a part of the cycle of life wich would have been needed for evolution to exist on earth. Taken to its inevitable conclusion, if humans are not responsible for suffering and evil, but instead death is simply a natural process rather than a punishment, what need is there for atonement and redemption? After all if man is not responsible for sin as the Bible says, then the Bible is wrong, and if the Bible is wrong why live by it's precepts?
Now I need to address the debate over the Hebrew word “Yom” or יום. Those who disagree with the literal translation of the Bible that claims God created everything in six literal earth days, use the argument that “yom” is sometimes used to describe an age or an era. I offer six reasons theistic evolutionists and OEC's are wrong in their interpretation of the record of Genesis.
1.) Moses repeats, “And there was evening and there was morning, one day” Genesis 1:5, Genesis 1:8, Genesis 1:13, Genesis 1:19, Genesis 1:23, Genesis 1:31.
2.) In the context of a 24 hour day, Moses again defines what he means by ”yom”, “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy” Exodus 20:11; Exodus 31:17.
3.) The Hebrew word for day, or “yom”, is used 1480 times in the Old Testament, and it is translated by some different 50 words. It can mean an indefinite time, but it is not used as an age of millions or billions of years. When "yom" is used with a numerical adjective, it always refers to a literal 24 hour day.
4.) The Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament, the “Septuagint”, uses "hemera" or ἡμέρα, which normally means a 24 hour day such as, “And He was in the wilderness forty days”, not forty ages or eras. Mark 1:13.
5.) Furthermore, if Moses meant a period of long eons or ages, then the translators should have used the Greek word, "aion" or αἰών. which is the word Christ used when he gave His followers their marching orders for the great commission in Matthew12:20
“teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen
"Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her." And Jesus answered and said to them, "Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH SO THEN THEY ARE NO LONGER TWO, BUT ONE FLESH. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
So, from this exchange you can see that Jesus obviously agreed with Moses in his interpretation of the creation story, thus rejecting macro evolution and the Old Earth theory. Jesus specifically said, “from the beginning He made them”. He did not say, “In the beginning he started the process”. Jesus believed there was a definite beginning and that Moses did not write an allegorical story because the Israelites were to primitive to understand the truth. So if Jesus said so, why would anyone want to disagree with Him?
Also, those of you who are proponents of theistic evolution are walking a very thin line, because you also must deny the very existence of the Trinity.
”For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.” John 5:7
”In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Genesis 1:1
“yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him” 1 Corinthians 8:6
”He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.” Colossians 1:15-17
“You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the earth.” Psalm 104:30
”And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.” Genesis 1:2.
The Scriptures, and an understanding of the texts, should be enough to prove to Christians that the Bible is right. When it comes to the debate with the godless Darwinists, we Christians are living in great times. Every day we find more evidence that proves the Scriptures are historically, archeologically, and scientifically correct. Now is not the time for us Christians to compromise our faith in God, for ultimately that is how we will be judged. Do you have enough faith in God to believe He is who He says He is, and that he can do what He said He would do? The faith of a mustard seed is all you need to throw a mountain into the sea, could you imagine the trembling of the Godless if we Christians had such faith?
I pray that those who have ears to hear will hear His voice and call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Amen
Then your basic argument is that no creation doctrine other than YEC should be acceptable within the realm of Christian theology. Is that correct?
All your arguments rely on Biblical quotes. Amen.
I didn't say that you did. Just pointing out that a lots of people were pinged. Maybe that was the case for the other.
It also has priests, a messiah, and a holy scripture.
Hutton was the first to posit an age in the billion year range. Kelvin and other posited ages well beyond the 7000 year mark and in contradiction to the 6-day account of Genesis well before that.
The premise of the article is that YEC doctrine is an all or nothing proposition. If you depart from it at all, you depart from Christianity completely. The blasphemy did not originate with Hutton.
And that is why I wrote the article to draw those who wish to discuss it. So far I have yet to get many takers, a few, but not what i was hoping for.
This is an argument that needs to take place, however I feel it may have been a practice in futility seeings how those who are pure evolutionists and not Christian would rather come by and discuss other matters while the Christians are too worried about offending eachother to get into a serious debate about the particulars of my points.
Notice how I attacked the problem purely from a Scriptural basis, not scientific, because being an in-house debate it needs to be debated upon the merits of the Scriptures.
This is not a criticism of my fellow Christians, but it does show how we as Christians find it difficult to come to the table and properly discuss matters of such importance. Remember, even Western and Eastern Christendom permanently divided, never to have councils to hash out problems again. Christians sometimes are most stubborn when it comes to discussing differences withing the realm of our own faith.
I find this as important as the discussion of the merits and of the Trinity, others do not. In the long run it is our children who will suffer because we as Christians have compromised with the Devil.
As for the ID crowd, some agree with me and others disagree with me. I do find their investigative work to be very helpful, but I do with all honest scientific study. I have no problem with the ID label, as long as they claim the the only intelligent Designer is God. There are those debates that i will be standing with those who do not look to God as the designer, but that would only be in a debate that is discussing the merits of the studies and science, not theology.
Just as I can stand with a godless evolutionist when the debate is about Liberal Democrats and the laws they wish to pass. Sometimes the enemy of my enemy is a friend of mine. We must know when and where to pick our battles.
Today, my battle is with those who profess a belief in Christianity, but give deference to Darwin’s theory of evolution instead of God through Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit for Creation.
And it is your assertion that it has done that - that they practice a religion called "science"?
I already told you I didn't buy into the evolution theory...And what's that got to do with the Gap Theory???
Please answer my assertions before bringing more to the table, because you have yet to disprove anything I wrote.
Don't know what you are talking about...YOU are the one who said YOU would disprove the Gap Theory...
The topic and this discussion pertains to the words actually written in the Bible, their import throughout that Bible (not just in Genesis), and the faith in God that is demonstrated by taking His Word at face value, as Jesus, Moses, Peter and others quite clearly did, and the pitfalls of accomodating the Word of God to the words of man.
The only label of interest here is Christian, or not. If you want to go on about Yeckers and Oeccers and Geocentrists, Oh My! then that is your particular fixation. It's also your prerogative. But, beg your pardon if the boxes you want to put us in to study us, are not of primary concern.
Hutton's geological ages provided the foundation of modern evolution as far as linear time. It has been built upon and expanded, and continues to be built upon and expanded, now into the trillions of years. Kelvin had and has no such notoriety in this particular regard. Hutton does.
Now, I must put my notes together for my Sunday afternoon message with the Ladies of Windchime.
I wish more had delved into the debate, but alas as I have already said, we Christians find it difficult to get into deep theological discussions about internal problems.
If there are any comments to me I will address them when I get back from my Sermon later this afternoon.
God bless you all,
OV
IDers believe in evolution.
Those "boxes" were the basis of the article.
You, my friend have become what you wish to be... a god.
I now bestow upon you the right and honorary (if not moderately, yet significantly insignificant) title;
“GOD AND MASTER OF THE RELIGION FORUM”!
Of course I have as much authority to bestow that title upon you as you have thrusting your ego-driven supposition of all-knowing wisdom on other FR members.
Nevertheless, may you hold your title well and as usual...
whatajoke.
GG
Hutton and Kelvin based their estimates of the age of the Earth on different sets of evidence. Current estimates of the age of the Earth are based on radiometric decay measurements, which is yet another set evidence that doesn't depend on Hutton's work at all.
I am not sure, but it sure looks like you are calling Christain evolutionists atheists.
Particularly when you accuse those that do not believe in your 'religion' of blasphemy and condemned to eternal hell.
And the author of this thread has declared that anyone that does not believe in the literal six days of creation is not a Christian.
Religious viewpoint?
To the back of the bus with you.
how about defining “old earth creationism” before bashing it
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