Islam And The End Times

RaptureAlert.com ^ | 10/10/2009 | Jack Kelley

[GiovannaNicoletta]

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast-all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. (Rev. 13:8)

There’s a lot of interest in the role of Islam in the End Times. And from what I’m reading, a lot of misunderstanding, too. Recent surveys are shedding some light.

It’s becoming clear that Moslems are increasing in number faster than any other religious group in the world. Their current growth rate is four times faster than that of Christians. According to a recent survey by The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, those who practice Islam now make up nearly one-fourth of the world’s population at 1.57 billion members, second only to Christianity. This is revolutionary in nature and even though it’s happening right before our eyes, most Western Christians haven’t even noticed. And not only are Moslems the fastest growing religious group in the world, they also hold that distinction in the United States, Canada and Europe, with Europe perhaps being the model of where Canada and then the US are headed.

Comparing the current birth rates of native Europeans with Europe’s Moslem immigrant population leads us to one very clear and surprising conclusion: the Europe we have known is very quickly changing into what some refer to as Eurabia, where Europe will soon find itself under the power and control of Islam. Today there are more Moslems in Germany than there are in Lebanon. France’s Moslem population, while fewer in number than Germany’s, represents a greater percentage of French citizenry, and given the current rate at which church buildings are being converted there may soon be more mosques in England than functioning churches.

Following the rapture of the Church, Islam will be the most populous religious system on Earth by a wide margin. Whether you believe that Islam is a religion of peace or not, it’s pretty obvious that they’re not going to just go away after the rapture and abandon their long held dream of becoming the world’s dominant religion just at the point of realizing it.

What About Ezekiel 38?

Don’t make the mistake of thinking that Islam will no longer be a viable religious force after the Battle of Ezekiel 38 either. According to The Pew Forum report, the countries who will unite against Israel and be defeated there are a small percentage of the total Islamic population. For example, the four largest Islamic countries by population aren’t even involved. In fact, two thirds of all the world’s Moslems live in 10 countries and of those only Turkey (5) and Iran (6) are named by Ezekiel. Rough estimates indicate that as little as 15% of the Islamic world will be represented by the forces aligned against Israel, and remember it’s only their soldiers who die in battle, not their total populations.

Compare that to what will likely happen to the 2.2 billion strong “Christian” world in the Rapture and it’s not hard to see that Islam will still be the strongest religious force on Earth as Daniel’s 70th Week begins. (After all, none of them will be raptured.) Islam would be the obvious choice for a man who wants to use a religious system to gain control of the world.

And remember, the anti-Christ won’t be confirming a covenant with Israel for the purpose of helping them. He’ll be doing it to help himself. By means of peace he’ll deceive many, Daniel warned (Daniel 8:25). And with the exception of the fleeing Jewish remnant, the world will be deceived, saying “Peace and safety” just as sudden destruction comes upon them (1 Thes. 5:9). But God will not be deceived. He’s already on the record, calling it a covenant with death. (Isaiah 28:15) But doesn’t this covenant serve God’s purpose, you ask? Well of course everything that happens serves God’s purpose, but that doesn’t mean everything that happens is good for man. The Jews will think they’re getting a guarantee of peace but God will use the covenant to usher in Daniel’s 70th Week, a time when He’ll completely destroy the nations, and purify His covenant people. It’ll be anything but peaceful.

Let’s also remember how crafty the enemy is. For example, MI-6, the British intelligence service, has just confirmed that Iranian Pres. Ahmadinejad, who could be one of the leaders of the Islamic coalition in Ezekiel 38, was born Jewish. The family converted when he was 4 years old. Knowing that, how could we say the anti-Christ (who some believe has to be Jewish) could not come from an Islamic country that was once part of the Roman Empire? Please, I’m not saying Mr. Ahmadinejad is the anti-Christ. I’m only saying that someone like him could be.

Almost 4 years ago I first reported on the similarities between Islamic prophecies of al Mahdi and Christian prophecies of the anti-Christ. I noted how both are said to come on the scene during a time of great turmoil on Earth, both come claiming a desire to restore peace, both have a seven year reign, both head a one world religion and one world government, both claim supernatural origins, and both reigns end in a battle between good and evil that brings Earth’s final judgment. It almost sounds as if they’re the same person.

At that time the majority of prophecy students were still convinced that the anti-Christ had to be of Western European origin, aligned somehow with the Roman Catholic Church. But since then I’ve become aware of more and more who are taking a second look at this traditional view, and are considering the possibility of a coming world leader whose roots are in Islam.

A Lesson From Daniel

When Daniel had his vision of Gentile Dominion, the period of Gentile rule over the Earth, it came to him in the form of 4 great beasts. The first was a lion, representing Babylon. The second was a bear, the Medo-Persians, and the third was a leopard, Greece. Then in Daniel 7:7 he said, “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast-terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.” This is a reference to Rome. In animal imagery, the horn demonstrates authority, and when used symbolically the number 10 denotes the completion of divine order. This 4th beast would have complete authority over Earth and would never totally relinquish it until the Lord comes to take it by force. (Daniel 2: 44)

The anti-Christ will make his first Biblical appearance in Rev. 6:2, disguised as the man on the white horse. According to Daniel 8:25 he’ll seem to be a great peacemaker, but his intent will be to conquer the world. His true identity won’t be revealed until Revelation 13:1-2 where it becomes clear that he’s been empowered by Satan. Verses 1- 2 describe him thus. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

Compare Rev. 13 to Daniel 7 and you’ll see that while the 10 horns show that he’ll have all the authority of the fourth gentile kingdom, his identifying characteristics will be more like the first three of Daniel’s beasts. Babylon, Persia, and Greece were all oriented toward the East. Only Rome had a western orientation (which made it different from the other three, as Daniel noted) Could this mean that the anti-Christ will also look first to the East (Islam) to consolidate his power?

Time will tell. In his interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, Daniel told us how the end times version of the 4th kingdom would be characterized by inner conflict. He said that where it had once been as two strong legs of iron (the Eastern and Western divisions of Biblical times) rebuilding it at the end would be like trying to mix iron and clay. (Daniel 2:40-43) He could have been describing some of the social unrest we’ve witnessed in several European countries as their native populations have not always responded well to Moslem immigration.

My purpose in writing this is not in any way to confirm or endorse the views of some experts on Islam who’ve burst on the scene recently with all sorts of new interpretations of Christian prophecy. It’s to remind us all to keep our eyes open. Things are happening fast and will continue to challenge our traditional perspective. Daniel was told that as the End of the Age approaches knowledge will increase (Daniel 12:4). That means we’ll be given a clearer understanding of how events will unfold than those who came before us. This will happen through careful observation, actually seeing the pieces of the puzzle fall into place and comparing them to Scripture. But God knows the end from the beginning, so none of this is new to Him. Where we see change, He just sees a closer alignment of Earthly events with Heavenly truth. It’s time to keep an open Bible handy as we watch the headlines because we now have another reason to search the Scriptures daily (Acts 17:11). You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 10-10-09

[RJR_fan]

And how, exactly, does fortune-telling benefit the people of God, or contribute to His honor before the watching world?

[GiovannaNicoletta]

Fortune-telling?

[Matchett-PI]

Tee hee. bttt

[GiovannaNicoletta]

What’s your take?

[John Leland 1789]

THE EASTERN QUESTION

Things To come, London, December 1896 Issue

The state of political affairs in the East is full of deepest import to the student of God’s word.

“Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Jerusalem has been and is being trodden down by the Gentiles.

For 1260 years, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome, held possession of the city and the Land, from 625 B.C. to A.D. 636-7. For the nearly 1260 years since they have been literally “trodden down” (significant words) by Turkey.

It seems now as though Turkey, in spite of all her advisor’s and all her warnings, was deliberately rushing on to her destined end. “The times of the Gentiles” must have an end—will have an end. How soon that end may come no one can tell, but certainly it never seemed nearer than now.

A London daily paper speaks for itself when it says: —

“From Medina to the Hellspont there is a simmer of suppressed excitement, a ferment of almost apocalyptic expectancy, and, below the surface, a dangerous feeling of discontent. Everybody is prepared for the worst. The doom that hangs over the Ottoman Empire is felt more strongly there than at Hawarden. Out of earshot of the Turkish officials, pious Moslems whisper of the fate in store for Islam, and tell one another that the time draws nigh.”

When Jehovah gave Abraham the Land, and deferred its possession, the reason given was that “the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full (Gen. xv. 13, 16).

Whatever may have been wanting in the iniquities of Turkey seems to be fast being built up ; and the students of the word of God, as they cry, “How long, O, Lord, how long?” are filled with the desire and the hope that the day is near when the treading down of Jerusalem may cease, and the rightful owners be placed once more in possession of their inheritance.

“SIGNS...IN THE STARS”

A remarkable phenomenon will take place in the heavens next year (1897), viz., the conjunction of Uranus and Saturn. such an event in the same part of the heavens has not happened since 1307. It is not at all necessary to assume any such thing as cause and effect. We may regard it merely as a mysterious and inexplicable coincidence that this conjunction (or even an approach to it) has been marked by great changes amongst the powers and countries of Europe, as in the years 1805 and 1852. In 1897 it occurs three times in the same year and in the same part of the heavens (the sign of Scorpio), viz.: Jan. 6, June 1, and Sept. 9. “There shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars (Luke xxi.25). Is this one of the “signs?” and if so, what does it signify but the death-knell of Turkey? We need say no more. “The wise shall understand.”

MOHAMMEDAN ESCHATOLOGY

Eschatology is a word now frequently met with. It is the Greek for that which relates to the last things. Things to come, therefore, fairly represents the word. Everyone is looking for “things to come,” the world is looking for a good time coming,” and all false religions have some false beliefs as to the future.

Only the word of God “rightly divided,” can give us the “truth” as to what the future is to be. Man’s ideas are either perversions of the truth or the imaginations of his own heart. The Mohammedan’s future is a mixture of the two.

Laurence Oliphant, in his Land of Gilead, gives some interesting facts, which he collected during his travels on the Eastern side of the Jordan.

The Metawalies, he says, are much despised and hated and persecuted by the Turks. They, like the Persians, are Shiites, and supposed by some to be the descendants of the aboriginal races of Galilee.

They hold the Shia doctrine that Ali, the son-in-law of Mohammed, is “awaiting in concealment the coming of the last day. In common with some Sunrus, they do not consider this event very remote, the orthodox Moslem doctrine being that on that day Christ will re-appear to establish El Islam as the religion of the world; with Him will appear Mehdi, the twelfth Imaum, who will then be known as ‘the guide’—and Anti-Christ or the beast of the earth; while the peoples of Gog and Magog, whom some suppose to be Russians, will burst the barrier beyond which they were banished by Alexander the Great. The end of all things will begin with the trumpet blasts of of the angel Asrafil. The first of these blasts will kill every living being, a second will awaken the dead. In regard to their final expectation of what is likely to happen, the Shiites and Sunrus do not seem to differ very materially.” (Pp 8, 9)

Speaking of the signs of the end, he says, “Among the other signs which are to precede the resurrection, a war is predicted with the Greeks, and Constantinople is to be taken by the posterity of Isaac . . . As they are dividing the spoil, news will come to them of the appearance of Anti-Christ, whereupon they shall leave all and return back.

“The fourth great sign is the coming of Anti-Christ, whom Mohammedans call Al Dajjal. He is to be one-eyed, and marked on the forehead with the letters C.F.R., signifying Cafer, or infidel. They say that the Jews give him the name of Messiah ben David, and pretend he is come in the last days to restore the kingdom to them. According to the tradition of Mohammed, he is to appear first between Trak and Syria. . . . “

Among the lesser signs are “the decay of faith among men,” the “advancing of meanest persons to eminent dignity,” etc. (Pp. 67-70)

This mixture of truth and error will be easily discerned, but enough of truth to show that just as at the first coming of Christ there was a general expectancy, so now before His second coming there seems to be the same spirit both in the world and in false religions, as well as amongst the Lord’s own people.

THE EASTERN QUESTION – II

Things To Come, London, November 1912 Issue

This, surely, is the most momentous sign of the times that has ever occupied the minds of the Lord’s People, ever since the fall of Jerusalem.

It is a war of five nations, and over a million men are in movement. Europe has seldom known a larger struggle, and never a drama more intense.

It is for us to discern the “sign” to learn what it all means.

This can never be done by any who are obsessed with the idea that we are living in the days of the fourth world-power—the Roman Empire, in any form whatever; or that the Popes have anything to do with the prophecy of Daniel.

In Daniel 2 we learn that there were to be five world-powers. It is not so stated in so many words, for reasons which will presently appear: but it is most clearly implied.

It will first be noted that it does not say there were to be “four,” and only four. The word in v. 40 is “fourth”; and it is an ordinal number, and not cardinal. And the five are enumerated four times.

(1) In vv. 31-33 the parts of the image are thus enumerated:—
1. The “head” (gold),
2. “his breast and his arms” (silver),
3. “his belly and his thighs” (brass),
4. “his legs” (iron),
5. “his feet” (part of iron and part of clay).

(2) In v. 35 the metals are enumerated separately:—
1. “The iron,
2. the clay,
3. the brass,
4. the silver,
5. and the gold.”

Here, the clay is mentioned as being distinct and quite separate from, and independent of, the other four.

(3) In vv. 38-42, we have the parts of the image again set forth and described; and in the original order as in vv. 31-33.
1. “The head of gold” (Babylon),
2. “another kingdom inferior” (Medo-Persia),
3. “another third kingdom of brass” (Greece),
4. “the fourth kingdom strong as iron” (Rome),
5. “the feet and toes, part of potter’s clay and part of iron” (The Mohammedan Power).

That the powers are five, is clear, from the fact, that they each had a prior existence, before one succeeded the other.

The first, Babylon, began in Genesis 10:10; but it is not counted as “the head” of this image until Nebuchadnezzar came into possession of Jerusalem.

It was the same in each case. It was as each occupied Jerusalem, that the change took place, and the one succeeded the other as described in vv. 38-42. The order therefore in these verses is chronological, as in vv. 31-33.

(4) But when the metals are enumerated in verse 45, the order is again varied so that we might discern that the “clay” is quite distinct from the “iron” (with which it is mingled). In v. 45 the order is:—
1. “the iron,
2. the brass,
3. the clay,
4. the silver,
5. and the gold.”

Now, when the Lord was uttering His prophecy in Luke 21, He concluded it by saying,

“Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled” (v. 24).

At the time these words were uttered Jerusalem was in the possession of Rome, “the fourth” of the above five powers.

But is Rome in possession of Jerusalem now?

Who is now treading down the Holy City?

We all know full well that it is the great Mohammedan power, which we know as “Turkey.”

The fifth power set out to conquer the world. That was its aim. But we all know how it failed at the siege of Vienna.

In A.D. 636-7 this power defeated Rome, and wrested Jerusalem and the Holy Land from its hands; and by succeeding it, became its possessor, and the fifth power—“the clay”—of Dan. 2. It has ever since “trodden down” Jerusalem in a way it had never been before.

Under preceding powers, the Jews had great liberty, nay, under Persia it had great privileges. But the Lord, Who knew the coming power, knew also its character.

But, He knew also that it would have an end!

He does not name it; for that would have had a serious effect on Israel’s acceptance or rejection Messiah, both in the Gospels, and in the Acts; and before, as well as after, the fall of Rome.

All that the Lord made known was that Jerusalem would be trodden down by the Gentiles. He does not name the other power which was to succeed Rome.

He states a solemn fact, that a day was coming when Jerusalem would be delivered from Gentile dominion.

From these words we, to-day, who believe them know full well that

TURKEY MUST GO

from Jerusalem, and from Palestine.

When therefore we hear and read of the present war, now commencing, we may well be concerned about it, and wonder whether we are witnessing the beginning of the end!

It may not be. For, when a river is approaching the sea, and looks as though it must fall into it, there may be a sudden bend which causes it for a short distance to flow from it; but, lo, it again bends round and ends suddenly in the sea.

So it may be with current events. But, even so, this will not shake our faith in the truth of the Lord’s words in Luke 21:24.

Those who know and believe them, and understand the second chapter of Daniel, know more of what is happening in the East, than those who blindly supply us with the news.

And what is more, for us who are waiting for the Lord Himself from Heaven, there is a still more solemn aspect of the Eastern Question. For we know, from the same word, that, before that crisis, we shall realize our

“HEAVENWARD CALL”

and shall “escape those things which are coming on the earth.”

“What manner of persons therefore ought we to be, seeing we look for this ‘according to His promise.’”

[444Flyer]

Revelation 20:4-6:

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

There are only one group of people in this day and age that I know of who have elevated beheading to an art form.

[GulfWar1Vet]

Ty for this article!

[444Flyer]

Written nearly 2000 years ago by John as revealed through our Lord. Still in existence today even with all the ‘progress’. Prophecy is always correct.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

Always correct and coming to fruition, down to the last detail, in our lifetime.

[topcat54]

There’s a lot of interest in the role of Islam in the End Times. And from what I’m reading, a lot of misunderstanding, too.

That is about the only statement approaching the truth in the entire article. Most of it is full of speculation such as:

Following the rapture of the Church, Islam will be the most populous religious system on Earth by a wide margin.

The author has no clue as to the timing of the so-called “rapture” wrt world demographics. The claim is obviously meant to incite rather than inform.

Futurism is characterized by the unique ability to reinvent itself eschatologically at a moment’s notice based on current events and world circumstances.

40 years ago, all futurist attention was on Western Europe as the “revived Roman empire” from whence the antichrist would spring to rain terror about Israel. Today, the attention has shifted in some futurist quarters so that Islam is the soil from which antichrist will spring.

So what has changed in 40 years? Not the Bible. “The truth is still out there.” The futurists’ assumptions about the Bible have not changed, either. Futurists still apply the same erroneous techniques they have been using since the days of Darby and Scofield.

The only thing that has really changed is world circumstances. And another round of guessing games from futurist preachers.

And be assured, based on the unchanging, erroneous interpretation of futurists, we can expect another major paradigm shift in another 20-40 years.

[topcat54]

Ping to #12.

[runninglips]

. And not only are Moslems the fastest growing religious group in the world, they also hold that distinction in the United States, Canada and Europe, with Europe perhaps being the model of where Canada and then the US are headed.

That statistic though true is misleading. If you drink one beer a week, then go to two of them, your drinking is increased by 100%, so it is with Islam. There are so few of them in the US, that it takes little to make it look like it is having a huge swing in converts.

[RJR_fan]

Futurism is characterized by the unique ability to reinvent itself eschatologically at a moment’s notice based on current events and world circumstances. 40 years ago, all futurist attention was on Western Europe as the “revived Roman empire” from whence the antichrist would spring to rain terror about Israel. Today, the attention has shifted in some futurist quarters so that Islam is the soil from which antichrist will spring.

I grew up under the shadow of The Bomb, when "everyone knew" that Soviet Communism was the Great Red Beast of Bible Prophecy, destined to take over the world.

Then, in the mercies of God, Soviet Communism lost its credibility overnight.

There are no terms of execration suitably strong enough to register my contempt, and God's, for the fortune tellers' response. Rather than humbling themselves before the God who had shown the world more mercy and grace than we deserved, and thanking Him for undeserved victories, these peurile pimps of impotence immediately began scurrying around seeking other antichrist candidates to grovel/cower before.

May God's curse rest upon their efforts to discourage His people, to subvert His work on the earth, and to serve as unpaid cheerleaders for the other team.

What makes some people so damned determined to seek failure? And to preach the global triumph of evil as a legitimate Christian goal/aim/expectation? Whose cause do the fortune-tellers serve? Certainly not that of the God of the Bible.

[runninglips]

The first person to show up on the world scene will be the antichrist, NOT Yeshua to take his church out..IMO of course

[GiovannaNicoletta]

Here is a wealth of Scripture which I posted on another thread, which leaves little doubt that Jesus will get His church off the scene before He judges the earth:

I Thessalonians 4:14-18

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The above New Testament quotations describe the Rapture of the Church. The blessed hope of the Christian is Christ taking him to Himself forever, as He promises in John 14:2,3, “In my father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

The Olivet Discourse recorded in Matthew 24 and 25 gives us the certainty we are looking for. The disciples asked Jesus, “Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” Here it is clear that it is about the end of the age that the disciples were asking about. The Tribulation, then, is that short period of time – seven years – that immediately precedes the “end of the world,” or age.

The Lord gave the general course of events in the world from His time to the end of this age. He enumerated a series of prophesied occurrences which have characterized the world. False teachers, wars, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes spoken of in Matt. 24:4-7 have been happening since our Savior uttered those words, only with increased intensities in the last century.

Persecutions described in verses 9-13, as applied to Christians, began almost immediately after the establishment of the Church on Pentecost. The fulfillment of this part of the Olivet Prophecy is well documented, , and will no doubt continue with increased severity in the near future. God said that Christians would suffer tribulations in this world- this is, after all, a fallen world with Satan as the "god" of this age (to paraphrase God). Nowhere in Scripture are Christians told that we will be rescued from Satan's evil during our time on this earth. We are promised, however, that those who know Christ as Savior will not be on earth to go through the judgments that God will rain on those who reject Him.

Also, know that the Bible tells us the the One Who restrains evil will be removed before the Antichrist is revealed. “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth” – or restrains – “will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed” (2 Thess. 2:7, 8a). The restrainer of the Antichrist is the Holy Spirit. Nothing and nobody in the world can do the job of restraining Satan, who is the force behind the Antichrist. The Holy Spirit has been doing the work of a restrainer since the days of the apostle Paul. Only an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent Being can do that. When the Holy Spirit, in His capacity as the Restrainer, is “taken out of the way,” then the Antichrist will be free to reveal himself, for God will now allow it. Now, the “taking out of the way” of the Restrainer from the world scene is the same as saying that the Church is raptured – taken away from the earth – because the Holy Spirit works primarily through the Church in controlling the outbreak of apostasy in the professing Christendom and in the world.

When the Church is taken away, then the Great Apostasy will be complete and the Antichrist will reign supreme over the whole world.

God promises to deliver His children prior to the Tribulation by transporting them to heaven. Consider the following:

• “… to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come” (1Thess. 1:10). “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ” (5:9). The wrath to come is the Tribulation, exhaustively described in Revelation 6 – 18. By the time the First Horseman rides (Rev.6:1) the Church (Rev. 2 & 3) will have been transported to heaven (Rev. 4:1).
• Christ to the Church: “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which will come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth” (Rev. 3:10). This is a promise from Jesus to the faithful in Philadelphia. We know that Philadelphia is an end-time Church, the sixth of the seven Churches. The Philadelphian Era of God’s Church covers the period from about 1750 to Rapture. God’s promise is clear-cut – “I… will keep thee from the hour of temptation,” – or the time of trial – “which shall come upon all the world.” “The hour” refers to the short period of seven years when God’s righteous judgments will be poured out on sinning mankind. How can anyone mistake the meaning of that scripture? God will deliver the Church from the Tribulation. And the means is by transporting her to heaven: “Come up hither…” (Revelation 4:1).
• In 2 Peter 2:4-10 the apostle spoke of “judgment” on the world of the ungodly during the days of Noah and Lot, wherein God saved the just from the outpouring of judgment, for “the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished” (v. 9). The conclusion that we can derive here is that God will deliver His own – the godly – before He allows the global “day of judgment” – the Tribulation – to begin, just as He did to Noah and Lot. We are therefore assured that the Church will not go through the coming Tribulation. God’s promise will never fail. We are expected to believe that; can we do otherwise?

[mountn man]

I have noticed STRONG similarities between The Bibles prophecies of end times and the AC, and the qurans "prophecies" and the Mahdi.

Though I find it interesting and plausible, I have a couple of hang ups.

1-quran "prophecy"

Satan knows Gods prophecy better than anyone. Islam is Satans counterfeit religion.
Where God is love, Allah is hatred.
Where Jehovah is free grace, Allah is murder and martyrdom.

When it comes to prophecy, The Bible is my foundation, and what I TRUST. No matter how well the qurans Mahdi mirrors the AC, I consider the source (Satan) and watch with interest and curiosity. But that is all.

Anything else, and I feel, I would be trying to view the future with my eyes upon something other than MY God.

2-Mahdi/AC

From what I limitedly know of the Mahdi, he comes as a PROPHET of ALLAH.
The AC, does not come as a "prophet", but will draw worship unto himself and claim in the temple that HE IS GOD.

That right there is a HUGE sticking point about the Mahdi. Though the Mahdi my draw people to himself, he REPRESENTS Allah. The AC will draw people to himself and claim HIMSELF deity. He will share "glory" with no one.

Next I find some points I object with, with the author of this piece.

First in the Battle of Gog/Magog, when the author talks about Iran, he's missing something. Iran was Persia. BUT!!! Persia was at one point Iran AND Afghanistan AND Pakistan AND others. Also when you add Magog the area north of Persia between the Black Sea and Caspian Seas and east of the Caspian, you have a number of former Soviet Union islamic countries. You have Gomer which is believed to be modern Turkey and the land of Put which is modern Lybia and possibly Algeria and Tunisia, and Cush which is Sudan and Ethiopia.

The Bible clearly tells us in Ezekiel 38 that these nations will rise up against Israel, and be utterly destroyed BY GOD, and it will take 7 months to bury the dead and 7 years to burn the fuel and weapons.

I'm sorry, 7 months to bury the dead and 7 years to burn the weapons and fuel. That ain't a small army.

Islam will remain but it will be virtually eliminated.

Also when you read Ez. 39, God makes it pretty clear this is a route. A complete anihilation. AND that HE IS THE ONE who did it.

What remains of Islam will be nothing like what we see today.

I do see Islam being "drawn" into the following of AC. But I see AC being a seperate "religion" unto himself

[Marysecretary]

Amen.I believe it.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

Thank you for your reply.

I am conflicted about whether, when the Antichrist makes his appearance, he will be the Antichrist who Jesus said would come on the scene yet be perceived by the Muslims as their 12th Imam.

There are many modern-day Islamic nations which were geographically part of the Roman Empire and could conceivably be the source for the Antichrist. Then there are his characteristics of showing "no regard for the gods of his fathers", which would be the God of Abraham, Ishmael's father, nor "the desire of women", which, I have heard, is a reference to Jesus Christ since it was the "desire of women" to be the one who was chosen of God to be the mother of the Messiah. Then there is the fact of the Antichrist beheading those who will not worship him, and the people famous for beheading, of course, are Muslims.

However, I like the points that you make and you are quite correct.

Anyway, it looks as though there is some movement beginning to occur with the revived Roman Empire becoming more of a recognizable shape.

I would say we'll have to see if the Antichrist will actually be Muslim, but I won't be here to see who it is.

[mountn man]

There are no terms of execration suitably strong enough to register my contempt, and God's, for the fortune tellers' response. Rather than humbling themselves before the God who had shown the world more mercy and grace than we deserved, and thanking Him for undeserved victories, these peurile pimps of impotence immediately began scurrying around seeking other antichrist candidates to grovel/cower before.

May God's curse rest upon their efforts to discourage His people, to subvert His work on the earth, and to serve as unpaid cheerleaders for the other team.

What makes some people so damned determined to seek failure? And to preach the global triumph of evil as a legitimate Christian goal/aim/expectation? Whose cause do the fortune-tellers serve? Certainly not that of the God of the Bible.

It is "opinions" like yours that infuriate me. To denounce clearly stated Bible prophecy and what is to come, and what TO LOOK FOR.

We ARE NOT put here on this earth to live out our days in pursuit of our own wants and desires. We are here to bring glory to God. Preach Christ the redeemer. And that days are short.

It is YOU who are in error.

2 Peter:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

2 Peter 1: 19And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

2 Peter2:1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.

2 Peter3:10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

Gee, doesn't sound very rosy and cheery.

2 Peter3:11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Titus 2:11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

15These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

[runninglips]

2 Thessalonians 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

It is quite clear that Jesus will not return until Satan(the antichrist) is revealed, sitting upon the throne claiming to be Christ. The second book of Thessalonians is written specifically to them because they were waiting to be taken out of body anytime.

[mountn man]

You are correct that Christ will nort be revealed until after the AC comes to power.

But the rapture IS NOT the second coming.

The second coming is when Christ, followed by all the raptured saints and saints who died during the tribulation, comes back to earth, and sets foot on the Mount of Olives.

With the rapture of the church, Christ never sets foot on earth. When Christ sets foot on earth, that then is the second coming.

[runninglips]

How can there be saints martyred in the tribulation? The “air” is the greek word pneuma....breath, not literally the sky. Just sayin, I know you will not believe what I do, but I firmly believe that “the rapture” is a false addition to Christianity. It makes no sense in that it takes away the chance for Christians to be tested by fire, a common theme in Biblical history.

[mountn man]

Matthew 24:30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Matthew 24:38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1 Thessalonians4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Colossians 3:4When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Isaiah 26:19 But your dead will live; their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead. 20 Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. 21 See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer.

I myself question WHEN the rapture might happen. Though I believe in a pretrib rapture, I also understand that the church has never been completely protected from persecution. And so I wonder about a pretrib rapture at times. And I hope AND pray, that I would live well and give a good accounting should I go through the trib.

BUT, Jesus himself mentions believers being gathered up, in Matthew. Then Paul CLEARLY writes to not just the Corinthians, but ALSO the Thessalonians about a rapture or gathering up.

So, if you DON'T believe in A rapture, you better take it up with Paul and Jesus.

[runninglips]

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

The goodman is the servant of the Lord, the thief is Satan, and clearly the goodman is praised for working as the end comes....

We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

Last time I checked, the last trump is after the entire tribulation, the trump sounds, Christ returns to reward and punish.

[mountn man]

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

If the beginning of the tribulation is the 7 year peace agreement with Israel, and the beginning of the Great Tribulation is the halfway point of the tribulation, or the abomination of desolation, then we KNOW EXACTLY when the Lord comes, and can be ready and waiting. Nullifying this verse.

IF you and I are both here when a single figure oversees a 7 YEAR peace plan, then we can use Bible prophecy to tell us Gods timetable.

Now at that point either we know Gods timeframe, and make this verse out to lie. Or we don't know Gods timeframe and make his 7 year tribulation prophecies to lie.

Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

What I see here is that the lawless one is being restrained by the Holy Spirit, but at some point the Holy Spirit will be removed and the lawless will then oppose anything of God. BUT believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit cannot be taken away from us.

The way I see it, to remove the Holy Spirit is to remove Christians. Or are you suggesting that our comfort and strength, and giver of words would abandon us? How then shall we survive? How do we respond, to give testimony? Our only comfort would be in knowing we have 7 years until Christ comes.

[mountn man]

A couple of things about the last trumpet.

In Revelation there are 7 trumpets listed, the seventh being blown at Rev. 11. But that would signify, not the end of the Tribulation, but the beginning of The Great Tribulation, or halfway point. In Revelation, there are never trumpets mentioned after chapter 11, or the midway point of the tribulation .

Next, with last trumpet, what exactly is the last trumpet. There are many times when trumpets are used in the Bible to proclaim something. Is this "last" trumpet the 7th mentioned in Revelation, or is it the last in a series, for something else entirely? If so, what? And what idententifies it.

Could it be, (I'm just speculating) that as believers, WE WILL HEAR a series of trumpet blasts, and that with the last one, we're gone from this earth? Imagine for a moment, IF this were the case, being at work, and suddenly you and I and every other believer hears royal trumpets or a shofar blasting, but not unbelievers. Imagine the thrill of KNOWING exactly what was happening, and then seconds later, the last trump.

I'm not saying this IS what's going to happen. Just a what if.

A what if, brought by the question of "what is the last trump".

Now here is something I found interesting as I was looking up stuff to respond to you. Gracethrufaith.com

[GiovannaNicoletta]

It is quite clear that Jesus will not return until Satan(the antichrist) is revealed...

Nope. There are two different missions of Christ before the end of the age: the Rapture, and the Glorious Appearing. These are two separate events.

Where is the Church found in each event?

• At the Rapture, Jesus comes FOR His Church. (John 14:1-3, 1 Thess 4:14-17)
• At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus comes WITH His Church. (Zech 14:5, Col 3:4, Jude 14, Rev 19:14)

Where does Jesus appear in each event?

• At the Rapture, Christians are caught up to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thess 4:13-18)
• At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus' feet touch the earth (Zech 14:4, Rev:19:11-21)

Who is taken and who is left behind?

• At the Rapture, Christians are taken first and unbelievers are left behind. (1 Thess 4:13-18)
• At the Glorious Appearing, the wicked are taken first, but the righteous (the tribulation saints) are left behind. (Matt 13:28-30)

What will Jesus do at each event?

• At the Rapture, Jesus will gather His Bride, the Church, unto Himself in preparation of the Marriage of the Lamb. (Rev. 19:6-9)
• At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus will execute judgment on the earth and establish His Kingdom. (Zech 14:3-4, Jude 14-15, Rev 19:11-21)

When does the Marriage of the Lamb take place?

• The Marriage of the Lamb takes place in Heaven AFTER the Rapture of the Church. (Revelation 19:6-9)
• War on earth comes AFTER the Marriage of the Lamb at the Glorious Appearing when the King of Kings and Lord of Lords lays the smackdown on evil! (Revelation 19:11-21)

How long will each event be?

• The Rapture will happen in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (Blink. It's over!). (1 Cor 15:52)
• The Glorious Appearing will be a slow coming. Everyone will see Jesus coming with great power and great glory! (Zech 12:10, Matt 24:30, Rev 1:7)

Who will see Jesus at each event?

• At the Rapture, only those who are looking for Him (Christians) will see Him. (1 John 3:2, 1 Cor 15:52)
• At the Glorious Appearing, every eye will see Him and those who have rejected Him will wail.(Rev. 1:7)

Will Jesus shout?

• At the Rapture, Jesus will descend from Heaven with a shout (calling for the saints at the resurrection). (1 Thess 4:16)
• At the Glorious Appearing, no shout is mentioned, although the Lord does slay the wicked with the sword of His mouth. (Rev. 19:11-21)

Will there be a resurrection at each?

• At the Rapture, a resurrection will take place. (1 Thess 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:51-54)
• At the Glorious Appearing, there is no resurrection spoken of. (Zech. 12:10, Zech.14:4-5, Rev 1:7, 19:11-21)

What about the timing of each event?

• The Rapture can happen at any time...maybe even now which is why we are to be WATCHING for the return of Jesus Christ! (Rev 3:3, 1 Thess 5:4-6)
• The Glorious Appearing will occur at the end of the seven-year tribulation period. (Dan 9:24-27, Matt 24:29-30, 2 Thess 2:3-8)

What role will the angels of Heaven have?

• At the Rapture, no angels are sent to gather the Church.
• At the Glorious Appearing, angels will be sent to gather people together for judgment. (Matt 13:39, 41 & 49, Matt. 24:31, Matt. 25:31, 2 Thess 1:7-10)

What about the resurrected bodies?

• At the Rapture, those who died in Christ will return with Jesus to recover their resurrected bodies. (1 Thess 4:14-16)
• At the Glorious Appearing, Christians will return with Jesus already in their resurrected bodies riding on white horses. (Rev 19:11-21)

White horse for Jesus or no white horse for Jesus?

• At the Rapture, Jesus doesn't return riding a white horse.
• At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus will return riding a white horse. (Rev 19:11)

What is the message each event will bring for mankind?

• The Rapture will bring with it a message of hope and comfort. (1 Thess 4:18, Titus 2:13, 1 John 3:3)
• The Glorious Appearing will bring with it a message of judgment. (Joel 3:12-16, Mal 4:5, Rev 19:11-21)

[aruanan]

Nope. There are two different missions of Christ before the end of the age: the Rapture, and the Glorious Appearing. These are two separate events.

Two separate events only in the fevered minds of pre-trib rapture advocates. Oh, geez, please! The more things change the more they stay the same with this recycling of 18th/19th century heterodoxy.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

The more things change the more they stay the same with this recycling of 18th/19th century heterodoxy.

2 Peter:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

LOL. How does it feel to be a fulfillment of prophecy? LOL!!!

[aruanan]

The more things change the more they stay the same with this recycling of 18th/19th century heterodoxy.

2 Peter:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

LOL. How does it feel to be a fulfillment of prophecy? LOL!!!

How does it feel to be selectively quoting scripture to come to a conclusion you've already decided upon?

The following verse from Peter a little farther down from what you quoted is more apropos to what you're doing since I'm not denying the return of Jesus nor am I saying that things are going on the same way they have since the beginning of creation--unless you're maintaining that the beginning of creation was in the 18th/19th century.

As also in all his [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
--2 Peter 3:16

You're leaning on a broken reed.

It's interesting to see that you've done with what I wrote what pre-trib rapturists do with scripture. They pick and choose, often within a single verse, ignore other things said, especially extensive scriptural discussions upon end times, assign multiple meanings and then choose the one they want, violate standard principles of exegesis* in order to come up with something more palatable or less damaging to a doctrine they seem, almost inexplicably, so eager to maintain.

*Such as claiming, as some pre-trib rapturists do, that "the blessed hope and the glorious appearing" are referring to two separate events. If so, then "our great God and our savior" would have to be describing two different individuals. In reality, the Greek construction is used to refer, using two descriptors, to a single event, thing, or person: "προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου"--Titus 2:13

[GiovannaNicoletta]

You're leaning on a broken reed.

No, actually I'm not, but it won't be long before we'll find out whose reading of Scripture is the right one.

We don't have long to wait at all. I'm going to believe the promises of Christ outlined in post 17 and believe Him when He tells us that He will get His Church off the scene before He judges the world.

We'll see.

[aruanan]

No, actually I'm not, but it won't be long before we'll find out whose reading of Scripture is the right one.

Someone who believes something for which there is ZERO primary support in scripture is leaning pretty hard on a broken reed. There is no place anywhere in scripture that talks about a pre-trib rapture. All the instances where end times are explicitly discussed there is either no mention of a pre-trib rapture or descriptions of events and sequences of events that entirely rule it out. That people have to fall back on faulty references to Pseudo-Ephraim (as Grant Jeffries does) as well as exercises in ad hoc exegesis (A really means B which means C so whenever we see C we know that it really means A) is sufficient to show the empty scriptural well for this doctrine.

Show me the unambiguous scriptural discussion of this, as unambiguous as scriptural teaching on the deity of Christ, his resurrection from the dead, his role as messiah. It just isn't there.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

Can you provide all the Scripture that supports a post-Trib rapture?

I'll take the fact that you provided no Scripture to refute what I posted that clearly supports the fact that God will take His Church off the earth before the Tribulation as an oversight.

I'll look forward to your post-Trib rapture-supporting verses.

[RJR_fan]

Two separate events only in the fevered minds of pre-trib rapture advocates. Oh, geez, please! The more things change the more they stay the same with this recycling of 18th/19th century heterodoxy.

People have reasons for what they believe. An unbelieving pscyhologist spent a year or so among the fortune tellers, and wrote a book on his experiences, The Apocalyptics. He found one common thread in the lives of those who were most obsessed with creating constantly-updated imaginary maps of the future: pain. Trauma from some profoundly painful life event or life situation. To compensate, they projected vivid pictures of retaliation and retribution against a cosmic canvas.

It's interesting, but gypsy fortune tellers refuse to have their own fortunes told. They know, from routine contact with their customers, that the lust to peer into the future is an addictive, and debilitating poison. Those who seek prognosticators are losers. Fatalistic. Failures in their own minds, who seek external forces to blame for their own shortcomings.

This is true even if the fortune tellers are using God's Word for their cracked crystal ball. In fact, since they are dealing with God's Word, they have even fewer excuses for their evil acts than those pagans who tried to read steaming entrails. And fortune-telling is a profoundly evil act. The "prophecy teachers" unanimously predict a global triumph for the other team, and assert, in a vile and pernicious libel against God's goodness and power, that the gospel is inadequate, not good enough, to measure up to the demands of our age.

I think it's past time for us to tolerate these doomsayers as Christians who are attempting to preach God's Word in good faith. Their reaction to the fall of the Soviet Union indicts them forever in the eyes of those who have eyes to see. Rather than giving God glory for His great mercies -- they frantically tried to find another cosmic boogyman to blame all the world's problems on. We who take the work of God seriously, what He achieved through the death, burial, resurrection, and enthronement of the Lord Jesus Christ, need to shake off our reluctance to call bovine feces by its true name: a slander against the God of Heaven.

[aruanan]

This is true even if the fortune tellers are using God's Word for their cracked crystal ball. In fact, since they are dealing with God's Word, they have even fewer excuses for their evil acts than those pagans who tried to read steaming entrails. And fortune-telling is a profoundly evil act. The "prophecy teachers" unanimously predict a global triumph for the other team, and assert, in a vile and pernicious libel against God's goodness and power, that the gospel is inadequate, not good enough, to measure up to the demands of our age.

Remember the practice of pin-sticking that was in vogue a couple hundred years ago for divining the will of God? The practitioner would open the Bible at random and stick a pin randomly on a page, look at it, and then try to see what God was trying to tell him.

[RJR_fan]

I shouldn’t let these folks get under my skin, but bad theology is a harsh taskmaster. Parents with a warped doctrine of faith healing, for example, have watched their children die in diabetic comas. When authors and authorities discover how much money there is in preaching despair, the people who take that message seriously drop out of college and bum around “doing ministry,” since “time is short.” A truncated time horizon leads to all kinds of aberrations, as well as a culture of mediocrity. Excellence takes TIME — and these yahoos keep telling us that we don’t have any!

[Just mythoughts]

When Daniel had his vision of Gentile Dominion, the period of Gentile rule over the Earth, it came to him in the form of 4 great beasts. The first was a lion, representing Babylon. The second was a bear, the Medo-Persians, and the third was a leopard, Greece. Then in Daniel 7:7 he said, “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast-terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.” This is a reference to Rome. In animal imagery, the horn demonstrates authority, and when used symbolically the number 10 denotes the completion of divine order. This 4th beast would have complete authority over Earth and would never totally relinquish it until the Lord comes to take it by force. (Daniel 2: 44)

This writer left out that the fourth kingdom is a mixture of iron and miry clay. Literally speaking iron melted or ice cold will not mix with miry clay and maintain its strength. And Christ NEVER EVER said to watch Rome.

[aruanan]

Excellence takes TIME — and these yahoos keep telling us that we don’t have any!

The other side of the religious coin that includes environmental catastrophism?

[RJR_fan]

The enemies of God and man specialize in keeping us too fearful to think straight. The most frequent command in the NT is -- "fear not." One of the most repulsive aspects of the "prophecy teaching" genre is the apparent relish the fortune tellers take in celebrating anticipated disasters -- "Hey! Let's talk about getting all the Jews together in one place, just so a third of them can be wiped out! Now wouldn't THAT be a dandy holocaust? Wow! Gee whiz! Aren't these WONDERFUL times to be alive?"

A biblically sane perspective views most of the Bible as a record of God's faithfulness in fulfilling prophecy. For us, on this side of the first century, only two things are predicted -- a general trend (I Cor. 15:25-28) that ends in a final resurrection.

The God who took down the Soviet Union has plans for Islam. Imagine, though, more than a billion people wondering what to do with their lives when its central supporting beam is broken -- what an opportunity for preaching Christ! O, God, may we be found ready, and worthy!

Our home school family is studying Turkish, and befriending grad students from the nation. You see, we have a different set of expectations from these filthy dreamers, who mock God's mercies and denigrate His power. They are not serving the cause of Christ when they do their unpaid cheerleader routine for the other team.

[aruanan]

Can you provide all the Scripture that supports a post-Trib rapture? I'll take the fact that you provided no Scripture to refute what I posted that clearly supports the fact that God will take His Church off the earth before the Tribulation as an oversight.

I'll look forward to your post-Trib rapture-supporting verses.

In a bit, but for now observe what you're doing. Someone makes a claim about another person, saying he's a racist scoundrel (sort of like what Jason Whitlock is saying about Rush). Someone else responds telling Jason to demonstrate his claims. Jason responds saying, "Well, you demonstrate that he's not a racist scoundrel," thus neatly sidestepping his primary responsibility for demonstrating his positive claim by claiming that others should demonstrate the contrapositive of his claim and then thinking, "Well, unless and until they do that, I'm still right. And the fact that they haven't yet done that supports what I am, without evidence, alleging to be true."