Christian Confusion On End-Times Nonsense

http://www.preteristvoice.org/confusion.html ^

[delacoert]

"Predictions that the end of the world is at hand have come' and gone for centuries, and they've always had one thing in common. They've always been wrong."

Terror attacks fueling end-time theologies
10/6/2001
The Associated Press

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1654

Archbishop Ussher of Armagh fixes the date of Creation as 4004 BC (26th October at 9 AM), and the End as 1997 AD (6000 AM of the Great Week) when the Millennium begins. This false teacher also claimed to know when the earth was created (4004 BC) and is still quoted by fundamentalists today.

1733

Sir Isaac Newton thinks the Coming of Christ to be about 2000 AD.

1774

Ann Lee (tongues-speaking Quaker) founds the United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing (Shakers) as the Millennial church in America (promoting celibacy). She declares herself to be the reincarnation of Christ and female aspect of God's dual nature. The Shakers win the admiration of many for their inventiveness (the circular saw, screw propeller, rotary harrow, etc.), model farms and their orderly prosperous communities.

1800

The Millennium does not arrive. New prophecy nuts come out in droves.

1802

Prophetess Joanna Southcott in England begins 'sealing' the '144 000' elect for the End. Her thousands of followers include some Anglican clergy.

1825

Britain's Rev Edward Irving predicts that Christ will return in 1864 (the Irvingites are the origin of the Catholic Apostolic Church, and today's New Apostolic Church. The Old Apostolic Church is a South African break-away from this group).

Adventists off shoots
http://www.jmahoney.com/adventis.htm

1826

Edward Irving begins his "school of the prophets" focusing on end time issues.

1829-1833

Edward Irving, Henry Drummond, and John Nelson Darby develop the 'pre-Tribulation Rapture' theory of Christ's Return. Darby (Plymouth Brethren) promotes the idea as part of a dispensational division of history. Through the Bible notes of a lawyer, C.I. Scofield, the Irving-Drummond-Darby 'pre-Tribulation Rapture' theory spreads among Christians to become the dominant End Time view in Christian circles in the 20th century.

1832

Latter Day Saints (Mormonism) founder, Joseph Smith of America, says:
"I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter." (Doctrine & Covenants 130:14-15). 
Joseph Smith declared: "I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written--the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old." (History of the Church, Vol.5, pp.336-37).

1844

Joseph Smith dies without seeing the Lord's Return or his 85th birthday. 
March 21st : William Miller, encouraged by some clergy, calculates this date as Christ's Return. It fails and is recalculated as - 
October 22nd: The Return of Christ predicted by Miller's Adventists (numbering about 100 000) fails again.

1845

The 'Seventh-day' Adventist movement, helped by Mrs Ellen G White as prophetess, develops the doctrine of the 'mark of the Beast' as Sunday-worship by a papal Antichrist in explanation of Christ's so-called 'delayed' Return.

1864

Rev. Edward Irving's predicted Return of Christ fails. (See 1825).

Adventists off shoots
http://www.jmahoney.com/adventis.htm

1888

In France, General Boulanger is denounced by an un-named prophet from England as the Antichrist, claiming that his name in Greek has the numeric value of 666, and pedicts that Christ will return at 3 PM on March 5 that year.

1889

Rev. Michael Baxter, editor of the Christian Herald, announces in his book The End of This Age about the End of This Century that 1896 would witness the Rapture of 144 000 devout Christians, and that the world would end in 1901.

1896

Baxter's Rapture does not happen. (See 1889).

1901

Baxter's Millennium does not come. (See 1889).

1914

Jehovah's Witnesses' predicted return of Christ fails, but they now change their teaching to an invisible Coming known only to true believers.

1917

May 13th: Three small children claim to have seen the Virgin Mary standing in an oak tree. On the 13th of each subsequent month until October crowds gather to see the vision but only the children claim to see her. They also claim that three prophecies are given, two revealed and a third kept secret in the Vatican. (See May 13, 2000).

1959

April 22nd: hundreds of 'Davidians' (a break-away Seventh-day Adventist sect) at their 77 acre compound at Waco, Texas, await the Return of Christ, watched by a large crowd and the media. The expectation is broadcast across the United States - and fails. (See 1993, February 28th).

1965

July: self-styled prophet, William Branham, declares in response to California earthquake: "The Scripture reader or even a--a believer knows that we are now at the end of the history of the world. There will be no use of writing it, because there won't be anybody to read it. It's at the end of the time. ..."

1973

This false teacher is still at it!

Hal Lindsey publishes in his best-selling book 'Late Great Planet Earth' that there will be only one generation between Israel's new statehood and the End Time. Although he does not state the date he provides many of the arguments upon which the date 1988 is based.
April: Rev. David Wilkerson claims a supernatural vision of imminent world-wide disaster of unprecedented proportions, economic collapse, famine, earthquakes, etc., in 'this generation', leading to Christ's sudden evacuation of Christians and the rise of Antichrist. 'More than one-third of the United States will be designated a disaster area within the next few years'. 
Roman Catholic Sister Agnes Katsuko at Akito, Japan, receives a message from the Virgin Mary, saying 'Father God will inflict a punishment greater than the Deluge ... Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, sparing neither priests nor the faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead.' In anticipation of the year 2000. (TW Petrisko, Call of the Ages, Queenship, 1995, p.xxi)

1978

November 18th: 'Disciple's of Christ' church, 'Peoples Temple', Jonestown, Guyana, conducts a mass suicide of its 900 members (one third were under 18 years and so some probably murdered) because of a Federal investigation (they practised suicide procedures several times over the years as a sign of loyalty to the church). Pastor Jim Jones had warned his followers that a disastrous period of fascism, race war, and nuclear holocaust was coming. In the year of the suicide 'Peoples Temple' was the highest contributing church to their denomination.

1980s

Edgar Whisenant (former NASA engineer) publishes his book, 88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988. 
Hal Lindsey (of 'The Late Great Planet Earth') writes concerning the so-called 'Jupiter Effect' - 'what we can expect in 1982 is the largest outbreak of killer quakes ever seen in the history of planet earth along with radical changes in climate'.

1982

Hal Lindsey's 'Jupiter Effect' prediction fails. Should have seen Pat Robertson quoting this nut on TV!

1988

Charles Taylor, American prophecy teacher, advertises a Holy Land tour with the incentive that by staying in a hotel on the Mount of Olives, 'if this is the year of our Lord's return, as we anticipate, you may even ascend to Glory from within a few feet of His ascension.' 
September 11/12 is expected as the date of the Rapture by Trinity Broadcasting Network, who cancel their regular programs and run videotapes instructing non-believers what to do if their families suddenly shoot up into the sky. 
September 29/30 is published by Hart Armstrong (chairman of 'Christian Communications') as a Rapture Alert date in his publications. 
October: Return of Christ as predicted by many Christian evangelicals fails (40 years (a 'generation') + 1948 (Israel's statehood) = 1988). 
Christian evangelist George Curle predicts God's judgement on Antichrist in 1999, the Tribulation in 2002, and Christ's Return and the millennium of Israel in 2005: 'the third Exodus for Israel and believing Gentiles will be accomplished in 2005 AD'.

1991

Cape Town's Rev. J.S. Malan predicts the beginning of the great Tribulation 'op die laaste' by September 1995 and Christ's Return by 2002.

1992

The Tami Church based in Seoul, South Korea, under pastor Lee Jang Rim, distributes the visions and prophecies of it's world-wide membership indicating the Rapture will happen 28th October 1992. (the Millennium will begin 7 years later in 2000 AD). 
October 28th: 20 000 members of the 'Mission for the Coming Days' (Tami Church), spend the afternoon waiting for the Rapture, resulting in great public humiliation to Christians and the amusement of the world.

1993

February 28th: Four American Federal Agents investigating illegal weapons are killed, 16 wounded, by 'Davidians' at Waco, Texas, thus initiating a siege of the premises (see 1959). The Davidians believe they are living in the days of the book of Revelation. 
March 11th:  President Clinton is appealed to jointly by Revd's Dunn (Baptist Joint Committee) and Kelley (National Council of Churches) to urgently demilitarized the Waco siege, as the 'Davidian' apocalyptic mentality would see it as 'validation of their fondest prophecies ... Whether it explodes or implodes, the result will be tragic for all'. 
April 19th: 6.00 AM Tear gassing of the Waco compound begins. Davidians fire at Federal Agents. 
12.05 PM The Waco Davidian compound bursts into flame accompanied by explosions and gunfire. 74 Davidians are found dead, including 21 children (10 under five years old).

1995

Roman Catholic newspaper 'Queen of Peace' (Pittsburgh Centre for Peace, Spring, 1995) announces concerning the nearing third millennium, 'The time has arrived' ... the long awaited 'Era of Peace' predicted at Fatima in 1917 is said to be about to occur. ... The Virgin's words indicate the face of the earth will be transformed. Like the ancient cities of Sodom or Gomorrah, some nations will even vanish. Others, like Russia, are promised to blossom with new splendour. Peace will rule and the Church will reign, Evil will be paralysed, and like an old well, it will dry up and almost vanish from the face of the earth.' 
September: Rev. Malan's predicted start of the Tribulation and world rule of Anti-Christ fails (see 1991).

1997

Marilyn J. Agee, with much Christian support, publishes her so-called Bible-based predictions, as:

1998		'most likely May'		Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Bride of Christ
2007		September 12		The end of this Age (Elul 29, 5767)
		September 13		The 2300th day of the Shortened Tribulation, Pre-Wrath Rapture of Tribulation Saints
				All Israel born-again in a day (who will live on into the Millennium) (Tishri 1, 5768).

2008 April 6: the Return of our Lord Jesus Christ with His saints, first day of Jewish Regnal Year (Nisan 1, 5768). 
2008 May 30: Armageddon lasts 40 days and 40 nights, ends Friday (Iyar 25, 5768). 
2008 May 31: true world peace, the Millennium, begins (Iyar 26, 5768).
November 6: Archbishop Ussher's prediction fails (see 1654). 
But, Dr James McKeever (editor of the End Times News Digest) declares that the 6000 years of the Great Week could end 'sometime between now and the year 2030'.

1998

May: Marilyn Agee's prediction of the Rapture of Christians fails!
August 16: Samuel Doctorian announces to Christians at a Prayer Retreat on Patmos an encounter he had with the "five angels of the five continents" in his room on the island at 3:50 AM on Saturday June 20 1998 who revealed to him a program of world destruction starting immediately, during which the Christian church will be preserved. Financial crisis, nuclear holocaust, earthquakes over Asia killing millions, Australia will split and "a great part will go under the ocean". Nuclear weapons used in general war throughout the whole Middle East (which he describes as a continent) causes huge loss of life. In Europe earthquakes and flooding, "millions drown", Eiffel tower collapses, a "great part of Germany destroyed", etc. In Africa, from Cape to Cairo, earthquakes to change river flow and drown many. "There shall be a trembling of the earth like has not been seen since the creation. None shall escape the sword of the Lord". Millions die. "The final day has come. Judgement day is here." In the Americas millions die, the Atlantic and the Pacific join together, "the Amazon river turning into a great sea". "The angel said, 'It is our message. You are the instrument, the channel. What a privilege that God has chosen you to give this message to the nations.' I said, 'Lord, Thy will be done'." 
What a pity that this ultimate message was entrusted to someone with such limited communication skills, so that it was only announced 57 days later (more than eight weeks!). It could have helped many Christian pensioners to avoid loosing their life savings in the slide of many stock markets following the East Asian financial crisis of this year. Amazing! 
September 20: Robert Blake 'This could see the start of the Final War, Armageddon, followed by the establishment of the Millennium in the year 2000.'

1999

January 4th, The Interior Ministry of Israel orders the deportation of 11 members of an apocalyptic Christian cult under suspicion that they were planning to commit violent acts in Jerusalem at the close of 1999, Israel Radio, 'Kol Yisrael', reports.  Three additional cult members will remain in Israel for questioning.  The 'Jerusalem Post' reports that the Denver-based apocalyptic cult intended to provoke a shoot-out by opening fire on policemen, an act they believed would hasten the second coming of JESUS.  A police statement said that "The arrests were carried out to protect certain sectors of the Israeli population and members of the cult themselves, who blindly follow" a leader who is now overseas.  According to Israeli authorities, the leader, identified as Monte Kim Miller, has claimed that he is one of the final 'two witnesses' prophesied in the New Testament in Chapter 11 of the Book of Revelation, and is said to have told his followers that he would die in Jerusalem in December 1999 and be resurrected three days later.

July-August: A note on Nostradamus (Michel de Notredame)
Recent publications of Nostradamus' 'prophecies' as applied to whatever is the current public concern are largely inventions of the various commentators/publishers and bear little relation to his 1555 and 1558 Centuries. (The title 'Centuries' merely refers to the grouping of his rhyming quatrains and has no reference to time).

Evangelist Curle's predictions begin to fail. (see 1988).
July 7: Eileen Lakes - The pole-shift in July 1999 will immerse the world in the Water Baptism.(?) At 7 am GMT, according to Eileen, the world will turn 90 degrees to the right 'very instantly'. Perhaps her own surname inspired her. 
August 24: Adrian Gilbert's astrological calculation of the End fails.
September 27: H.J. Hoekstra - The date of the Rapture! - Really? 
'Rosh Hashanah' - Jack Van Impe's date "...when this generation that lives to see 'all these things' comes to a glorious conclusion." Van Impe then, in an attempt to avoid justified criticism, says "We're not setting dates" (although it has the same effect), "but one has to admit - it's interesting!" (Playing with words, Dr Jack, does not excuse misleading God's people). (See 2001).

2000

April, Friday 17, Uganda: Leaders of a dissident Catholic apocalyptic sect ('Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God') burn 470 followers to death. The subsequent investigation exposes several mass murders by the sect's priests, bring the total victims to above 900, and indicating that financial gain by the priests may have been the motive.

May: Astrologists' predicted apocalyptic disasters arising from a so-called "alignment" of the planets does not happen.
Saturday 13, Rome: The Papacy announces the content of the third and secret 'prophecy' of Fatima, being one of danger to the pope amidst a field of corpses. (see 1917).

September 6:  Daniel Adam Millar - The peace accord between Israel and Palestine on September 13, 1993 marked the beginning of the seven-year tribulation. On September 6, 2000, the Antichrist will proclaim himself God, and begin the battle of Armageddon. (This Tribulation really needs to be renamed!).
September 13: The House of Yahweh - The last seven years of human history began on September 13, 1993. Presumably, the final war will then begin sometime about September 13, 2000. (ditto).
Another widely predicted Return of Christ fails (Sir Isaac Newton, et al). 

2001

Jack Van Impe - This year will see the start of the Great Tribulation. Political chaos, natural disasters, nuclear war and the world-wide rise of Islam will usher in mankind's final hour. (Apart from nuclear war, what's new?). This is about as accurate as his Rosh Hashanah 1999 speculation!

2002

Rev. Malan's predicted Return of Christ is to fail. (see 1991).

2007

Another predicted Return of Christ is to fail. (Based on the 40 years, a supposed 'generation', after the 'Six Day War' of 1967 which brought the ancient Temple site under Israeli political control).
Maurice Sklar predicts - Before the end of 2007, a nuclear "dirty bomb" will blow up in a major city in the south of America. Read the whole prophecy as contributed by Jan Willem van der Hoeven

2008

"New York City will receive 3 major judgments before the end of 2008. Each one will be more devastating than the last. One will shake the entire financial world and cripple the once invincible financial power of America. Millions will lose everything in a moment. It will make the crash of the stock market in 1929 look like a little thing in comparison. America will no longer be the financial leader of the world.", so says Maurice Sklar

2013

An asteroid larger than Jupiter will strike the earth. (If its an "asteroid" its in our solar system. If its as large as Jupiter how-come its invisible?). And so on ...

[Tuscaloosa Goldfinch]

No man knows the hour or the day. And I think in Western countries, where we've not had to endure much persecution, we somehow think God is going to spare us that. I believe all the scriptures about "caught up together" but I don't see it in scripture quite the way it's taught most of the time.

Jesus said, "One will be taken and one will be left" and the disciples asked "Where, Lord" and the answer didn't sound like a good thing to me.

[benjibrowder]

December 12, 2012? They just made a movie about it? Something about a Mayan prophecy?

[MrLee]

Israel is the one and only “key” to His return and the end of the Church age. Not the US...

[sasportas]

In our present antichristian environment, before we converse on such a subject, I think it good to consider the source. How about telling us, delcoert, where you are coming from? Inquiring minds want to know.

What are you, pray tell? An atheist, or of some non-Christian religion? Or perhaps one of the anti-prophecy Christian groups like the Preterists who consider the whole of prophecy already fulfilled? You’ve got an axe to grind, obviously.

[SkyDancer]

You forgot all the end times prophesy of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society aka Jehovah’s Witnesses or Herbert W. Armstrong and The World Wide Church of God ... (from Dr. Walter Martin’s book The Kingdom of the Cults).

[sasportas]

Ah, I see. I just now noticed the preterist link. You are Preterist. It figures. Flat earth society.

[anniegetyourgun]

Yeah, where is the promise of His coming? For ever since we can remember, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation. Right?

[delacoert]

Who's ox is being gored?

[Gordon Greene]

I’m not sure what the point of the post is, but I did see this interesting little tidbit on your home page. You attributed it to Mormon’s but it relates well to Evolutionists and Atheists also.

UNCANNY Similarities, really. No, really...

Set of Mormon (Evo-Atheist) Posting Tactics:
1. DENY – Denial of the historical facts, the meaning of words, and even recorded beliefs.
2. DIRECTLY ATTACK – Attack the sources, the critics, or anything to change the subject of discussion.
3. DEFENSIVELY ATTACK – Use of a false defensiveness to shift the discussion away from the substance of the debate. The apologist might even make up an attack against them, and then use the invented attack to shift into a righteous defense.
4. PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE DENIAL – Admit the truth of an argument, regardless of the merit of the evidence, and then dismiss its relevance; i.e., the “so what”-defense.
5. FALSELY CLAIMED VICTORY – Proclamation of victory when the debate is not resolved.
6. LOGICAL DISENGAGEMENT – Attempt to deny the relevance of questions or arguments, or simply refuse to answer relevant questions; i.e., run away.
7. RATIONAL DISENGAGEMENT – Shift the argument out of the objective into the subjective. Bear testimony based on feelings where facts become irrelevant to rational perspective, and then there can be no rational argument.
8. TOTAL WAR – Instigate a flame war, then hit the abuse button and get the thread pulled. Well-researched and well-argued posts on the thread then disappear into the ether.

[Gordon Greene]

Alright then... as long as the point of the article is not that Jesus won’t return, then I think the point is correct (IMHO). The Bible is clear that no one knows when Jesus will return, but that He will return. I believe those who claim to know the specific time Christ will return do actually cause harm.

On the other hand, living like Jesus is going to return any second is not a bad idea. It definitely helps us stay motivated and to reach for the prize.

[irishtenor]

I DO know the end... Jesus wins!

[delacoert]

I agree with all you said. Especially, paraphrasing Paul's advice: living like Jesus is going to return any second.

[MissDairyGoodnessVT]

Just because someone publishes a thread with facts doesn’t mean that they have an ax to grind.

[Quix]

1. NOT A SHRED OF WHICH

2. NOR THE WHOLE OF WHICH

3. ALTERS the slightest microgram’s worth, the absolute trustworthiness of the END TIMES BIBLICAL PROPHECIES RUSHING TOWARD COMPLETE FULFILLMENT IN OUR ERA [except for those about the end of the millenium].

4. Folks blind to the long list of dozens upon dozens of data points of fulfillment beginning with Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 . . . are dangerously blind to a long list of Scriptural truths.

5. They are likely also guilty of failing to prepare their hearts, minds and family members for greater super traumas rushing closer every day.

6. One would have thought OThuga and his hailed efforts to bring the whole world into the formal overt Biblically END TIMES PREDICTED WORLD GOVERNMENT would have awakened even some such clueless folks. Clearly some are tooooooo comotose for seemingly any awakening efforts.

[delacoert]

How about telling us, delcoert, where you are coming from?

On my FR public profile I think I explain a little in Reasons Why I Post on the FR Religion Forum.

I would love to converse.

[BlueDragon]

Sir Isaac Newton thinks the Coming of Christ to be about 2000 AD.

I thought Newton claimed 2060, 2058 at the earliest, going from his studies of all the various clues he could put together. Do we have a reputable source for the "2000 AD" timeframe attributed? If not, then perhaps whoever put this list together was less than accurate concerning Newton's opinion.

2058-2060 looks to be possible "time" to me, judging from world events, though it's highly doubtful I'll personally live long enough to see, one way or the other.

[marron]

Its human. People will always do this, and it will always pick up whenever the century changes.

I grew up on the Armstrongs “The World Tomorrow”, I think anyone who ever made a late night highway trip heard them, and whether you believe it or don’t, you can’t help but file it away in the back of your mental memory banks.

I think a good part of the panic over the year 2000 computer bug was rooted in this well planted idea that the end of the world was imminent. Of course, in the post-war nuclear world we all expected it to end in a nuclear holocaust; if you grew up during the days when they held nuclear bomb drills making you hide under your school desk, you’ll know what I mean.

For the Cold War to end in a whimper, with no big bang, it left people looking for something, anything. Hence the 2000 computer bug panic. When that didn’t pan out, people have filed it all away. Maybe they got the clues wrong. Maybe its not tied to a year with a round number. Maybe... 2012?

Of course, normal people don’t let that distract from the need to do whats in front of you to do each day. Whether the world ends on date certain or not, it will end for me and all of us within a few years, a couple of decades, whatever, and when the time comes it will all seem like it was no time at all.

My attitude is, keep your eyes open, And take care of business in the meantime.

[delacoert]

Yes Marron, "when the time comes it will all seem like it was no time at all".

I like the way you said that.

[wmfights]

So you've posted a bunch of people who did terrible things, or made fools of themselves by trying to pick the day of Christ's return. If you wish to discuss eschatology why not start by posting something you agree with and be ready to explain why.

Are you an amillenialist?

[roamer_1]

I thought Newton claimed 2060, 2058 at the earliest, going from his studies of all the various clues he could put together. Do we have a reputable source for the "2000 AD" timeframe attributed? If not, then perhaps whoever put this list together was less than accurate concerning Newton's opinion.

It has been a long time since I studied Newton, but I do not recall his dating mechanisms coming close to 2000. His calculations were based upon several Biblical time-lines which tend to overlap in near and/or perfect alignment.

I am happy to support this time-line method, and it is one of my own major study elements.

AFAIR, Newton was very careful *not* to utter any specific date, or even year (as is proper), but settled generally between the dates of 2035-2070, for his various arguments, which depended upon when one "starts" or "activates" each particular time-line (by hallmark events). Your argument of 2060, however, is more accurate and acceptable than the OP, which seems to have an axe to grind.

I am a great fan of Isaac Newton, "the Dark Heretic", though if one ventures into his writings, I would suggest reading his writings alone, first, to let them speak for themselves, rather than merely reading commentary about them. He is not for the faint of faith - his bias against Trinitarianism and the Niceans will cause many to howl in agony, but his faith is readily apparent. His methods and reason are excellent and inarguable, though his results remain to be seen.

[right way right]

Well, one of these days, we’ll get it right.

[behzinlea]

I grew up on the Armstrongs “The World Tomorrow”

Herbert W. and his son Garner Ted sure brewed a powerful batch of endtimes moonshine, didn't they? Marketing geniuses.

[delacoert]

Are you an amillenialist?

Can I be an antidisescatogical messianist? (Sort of a Christian countercontrarianist?)

[BlueDragon]

Thank you for the insightful reply.

I was hoping to get at least some sort of confirmation that the info I had come across concerning Newton was *in the neighborhood*, which would make the list of 'failed' predictions in error, in regards to Newton, in that ultimately(?), he did not predict the year 2000 as being the return of Christ.

[ducking, lest some crank find stilted info on "the internets" posing as credible refutation...]

[roamer_1]

[ducking, lest some crank find stilted info on "the internets" posing as credible refutation...]

You are certainly welcome to ping me to any such misadventure. It has been a while, but I have his complete works on hand... it would not take me very long to brush up...

[kaehurowing]

The world will end December 21, 2012. I have irrefutable proof.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

DING DING DING DING!!!!

We have a winner!!!

[DoorGunner]

It would appear that there is a mixture, here. Some people, taking their thology as a basis, trying to imagine what might occur in the near future; some people who are hoping that their guess is right, for their own glory; some who are deluded into imagining that they are speaking for God; and some who are intentionally deluding others.

The writer imagines, then that all this is the result of faulty theology. Is he right? Then, what about the theology which causes some to predict that the world is getting better and better; that, by their own efforts, they can bring about a theocracy on earth, to present to Jesus upon His return? Would that be a prophecy? Is there the slightest possibility that it could be a TRUE prophecy?

DG

[sasportas]

Delacoert is a Preterist. He may also have Postmillennialst views you described. There is nothing in Preterism to preclude them from Amillennial and Postmillennial views.

Preterist’s hate anything prophetic, or “futurist.” They are cocksure that the whole of prophecy, the Old Testament prophets, all that Christ prophesied in Matt. 24, prophetic sections of the epistles, and the Revelation, are in the past, there is nothing prophetic in our future. Hence, the rant we see here as lead article.

So called “Full” Preterists believe the resurrection has already been fulfilled. You can’t get more heretical than that! In truth, there is very little difference between them and the so called “Partial” Preterists. The latter have about as much validity as a woman being “partial” pregnant.

While there have been many false starts and excesses by those of us who are “futurists,” believing that neither the tribulation with its mark of the beast, etc., the cataclymistic calamities in the sun, moon, and stars (the day of the Lord), the second coming, nor the resurrection, have happened yet and are yet future, Preterists go over the top in the other direction. With the curious result, their “solution” is worse than the excesses they are always ranting about.

[wmfights]

Can I be an antidisescatogical messianist? (Sort of a Christian countercontrarianist?)

Thanks

It's good to know who's serious and who isn't.

[Uri’el-2012]

Preterists are always condemning and ridiculing
all who do not believe as they do.

I never see in them the (chesed)lovingkindness of Yah'shua.

John 13:35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another."

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[magisterium]

For the record, the entry about Fatima (1917) is completely irrelevant to the point of this article. The warnings at Fatima had to do with chastisement; they had nothing whatsoever to do with a specific prediction of Christ’s return.

Also, for the record, the entry points out that only the three children saw the apparition, as if that’s all there is to say about what people saw. It is true that only the children saw the Virgin Mary, but the article conveniently omits the fact that 70,000+ people saw the miraculous manifestations which “proved” the authenticity of the apparitions, including - but not limited to - the sun seeming to whirl, “dance” and detach itself from the sky, as if to crash into the Earth. The truth of this can be found in the columns from reporters working for highly anti-Church, anticlerical papers, sent there originally to write mocking stories of the predicted miracle failing to materialize. “O Seculo” (a hint to its editorial slant can be gleaned from its very name) sent more than one writer to the site of the apparitions for a couple of months before and during the miracle of October 13. The differences in their tone before and after the miracle are more than striking.

[delacoert]

I agree with magisterium about the Fatima entry.  The article used for the OP is what it is, although flaws in the event information related to relevance are more important than flaws with dates (i.e., 2000 vs 2060 for Newton).

The degree to which I agree with the OP author's choice of the 'n'-word 'nonsense' in the title, depends upon context - I agree with Doorgunner that there is a mixture (of motivation and context) here.  The 'n'-word is certainly provocative, and it is interesting to observe who gets their boxers in bunch because of it. 

Lest there be any doubt, I agree with word in regard to oracle-vanity threads like WATERS OF THE EARTH ABOUT TO RISE and their devotees.  My personal opinion is that these kinds of “prophecies” are total, absolute rubbish. Some of these self-professed seers are probably well-meaning but deluded, or swept away in the ego boost and adrenaline rush of being seen as an oracle. I think most of them are outright frauds. The vain oracle threads are why I posted this and a previous thread along the same lines.

On the other hand, I would not characterize as 'nonsensical' the motivation and interest nor any context in the discussions of those who study eschatology. (Although it IS interesting to see poster's react to the 'n'-word.)

I think that both groups, i.e., vain oracles or eschatology students, would be well served by more carefully observing the difference between the local church and the universal church as it relates to their theology. I would be very interested to hear about and discuss people's views on the relevance of the difference between the local- and the unviersal- church with regard to 1) NT prophetic ministry and 2) interpreting escatological scripture such as the Book of Revelation.  

 

[roamer_1]

I agree with magisterium about the Fatima entry. The article used for the OP is what it is, although flaws in the event information related to relevance are more important than flaws with dates (i.e., 2000 vs 2060 for Newton).

IOW, it isn't the veracity of the evidence, it's the seriousness of the charge... How droll.

The 'n'-word is certainly provocative, and it is interesting to observe who gets their boxers in bunch because of it.

It is equally interesting to see who doesn't.

Lest there be any doubt, I agree with word in regard to oracle-vanity threads like WATERS OF THE EARTH ABOUT TO RISE and their devotees.

In the first part, it is considered good manners to ping a FReeper when talking about him, especially when talking trash, so that he might defend himself.

In the second part, I have had no great need to defend Jedediah directly, though I do defend his right to speak his mind, and I will rise to defend those who prophesy within the Body as a distinct and necessary part of Christianity, which has been annulled for too long.

My personal opinion is that these kinds of “prophecies” are total, absolute rubbish. Some of these self-professed seers are probably well-meaning but deluded, or swept away in the ego boost and adrenaline rush of being seen as an oracle. I think most of them are outright frauds. The vain oracle threads are why I posted this and a previous thread along the same lines.

You are welcome to your personal opinion. It has nothing to do with the WORD. Nor does it have anything to do with the opinions and rights of others in this forum.

On the other hand, I would not characterize as 'nonsensical' the motivation and interest nor any context in the discussions of those who study eschatology.

Except those whom one considers to be "vain oracles" of course... The Prophets judge the prophets. That is proper.

I think that both groups, i.e., vain oracles or eschatology students, would be well served by more carefully observing the difference between the local church and the universal church as it relates to their theology.

There is *no* difference.

I would be very interested to hear about and discuss people's views on the relevance of the difference between the local- and the unviersal- church with regard to 1) NT prophetic ministry and 2) interpreting escatological scripture such as the Book of Revelation.

There is *no* difference.

[delacoert]

Pinging you to my post. Per roamer_1's comment in #35

In the first part, it is considered good manners to ping a FReeper when talking about him, especially when talking trash, so that he might defend himself.

I did lack manners by not pinging you. I now also apologize for not wanting to taking the time to identify and extend the same courtesy to all those 'devotees' to which I referred 'in the second part'.

[Quix]

On the whole, most modern prophetic types who’ve been under a varied set of mentors

do not typically defend themselves . . . believing it to be UNBIBLICAL and against God’s instructions to do so . . . I think after Moses or I forget whom . . . leaving God to be their defense.

[Jedediah]

God told Adam to replenish the earth meaning there were already people and the earth was not new but to be renewed by a man that had an intimate relationship with God “walked with God “
Still to come is a renewal of the earth not a destruction !
There will be a new heaven and a new earth meaning a renewal or cleansing . . .
“waters rising” does not mean a destruction but a correction in balance with God mercy and Grace !
Pepole twist things to try to take control of something that was never theirs because of a lack of understanding

[Jedediah]

I take no offense or defense The Lord is my shepherd !

[Jedediah]

Amen Quix

[topcat54]

Israel is the one and only “key” to His return and the end of the Church age.

Yep, that’s exactly what Hal Lindsey and Chuck Smith said they both predicted Jesus would return by 1988. 1948 + 40 years = 1988.

And they were wrong too.

[delacoert]

God told Adam to replenish the earth meaning there were already people and the earth was not new but to be renewed by a man that had an intimate relationship with God “walked with God “
Still to come is a renewal of the earth not a destruction !
There will be a new heaven and a new earth meaning a renewal or cleansing . . .
“waters rising” does not mean a destruction but a correction in balance with God mercy and Grace !
Pepole twist things to try to take control of something that was never theirs because of a lack of understanding

I know I shouldn't be, but I am somehow stunned by how demonstrably incorrect that prophecy is. You are actually basing a prophecy on an incorrect exegesis of a paraphrased version of Gen. 1:28 ! ! !

The verse with the Strong's reference numbers included is:

 

Gen 1:28

And God 430 blessed 1288 them, and God 430 said 559 unto them, Be fruitful 6509 , and multiply 7235 , and replenish 4390 the earth 776, and subdue it 3533 : and have dominion 7287 over the fish 1710 of the sea 3220, and over the fowl 5775 of the air 8064, and over every living thing 2416 that moveth 7430 upon the earth 776.

 

The word REPLENISH which is key to your prophecy is referenced by Strong's Number ⁴³⁹⁰ and matches the Hebrew מלא (male'), which occurs 249 times in 240 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV.

The Gesenius's Lexicon for מלא (male') shows:

i.e., the meaning of מלא (male') is to fill.  There is absolutely no sense of refilling or replenishing a previously existing people.  Your exegesis is not just wrong, it serves as the springboard for the prophecy you give.  You parallel the unbiblical theme of replenish, renew and cleanse.

What is your explanation?

[MrLee]

I’ve NEVER predicted a date! But too many Christians think His return will be predicated on what’s happening in the United States! That’s why my comment.

[delacoert]

Is it of any importantance that the beleaguered prophet's exposition on his own prophesy is based on an incorrect exegesis of scripture?

Is it relevant to the ongoing challemges to the said prophet's credebility, calling or authority?

Is it relevant to the discussion of the standing of the NT prophet in the church today?

[Quix]

BALDERDASH.

Scripture itself often springboards off of other Scriptures with alterations in word meanings.

Go find some other arrows and rocks.

[Quix]

AND

The REPLACEMENTARIAN et al perspective

is so clueless as to fantasize that we are

NOT closer to that glorious day than were were a few short decades ago.

Incredible.

[delacoert]

Scripture itself often springboards off of other Scriptures with alterations in word meanings.

Okay. Please look at this specific case so that I might understand scriptural "alterations in word meanings," or some other factor that would tend to make Jedediah's exposition correct.

Jed's statement was: "God told Adam to replenish the earth meaning there were already people".

I presume you would agree that the verse that is being referred to is Ge. 1:28 and that the entire text of the verse is known to be:

כח  וַיְבָרֶךְ אֹתָם, אֱלֹהִים, וַיֹּאמֶר לָהֶם אֱלֹהִים פְּרוּ וּרְבוּ וּמִלְאוּ אֶת-הָאָרֶץ, וְכִבְשֻׁהָ; וּרְדוּ בִּדְגַת הַיָּם, וּבְעוֹף הַשָּׁמַיִם, וּבְכָל-חַיָּה, הָרֹמֶשֶׂת עַל-הָאָרֶץ.

28 And God blessed them; and God said unto them: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth.'

I also presume that you would agree that the use of the word 'replenish' to translate the Hebrew מלא in the KJV can be understood by referring to the Oxford English Dictionary (OED). An examination of the OED shows that the word was used to mean ‘fill’ from the thirteenth to the seventeenth centuries. In no case quoted in these five centuries does it unambiguously mean 're-fill'. (see link)

To the best of my knowledge:

1. there is no Christian interpretation of the Biblical account of creation that teaches there were people in existence before Adam
2. no other scripture modifies the clear meaning of the word מלא (male'). It always means 'to fill'.

To me, it seems undeniable that Jedediah's exegesis of Ge. 1:28, i.e., that at some prior time there were already people on the earth before Adam and Eve and that God was commanding Adam to refill the earth, is erroneous.  It seems like Jedediah's error at this point (the first in a sequence) is to have formed a creation theology around the modern meaning of the 'replenish".

Next, Jedediah uses his erroneous creation theology and interpretation of Ge. 1:28 to expound on the interpretation of his own prophecy:

God told Adam to replenish the earth meaning there were already people and the earth was not new but to be renewed by a man that had an intimate relationship with God “walked with God “ Still to come is a renewal of the earth not a destruction ! There will be a new heaven and a new earth meaning a renewal or cleansing . . . “waters rising” does not mean a destruction but a correction in balance with God mercy and Grace !

Apparently Jedediah is explaining the meaning of "water rising" using a simile between what God is saying in the prophesy and the erroneous creation account.

BALDERDASH, arrows and rocks?

[Quix]

He’s not alone in that interpretation.

As far as I know, I wasn’t there.

It’s not a biggy, to me.

Certainly Scripture says it was void and without form.

It does NOT say what it was BEFORE it was void and without form.

There will always be reasons to nit pick anything to death.

Christ wouldn’t have any of that 2000 years ago.

I probably put up with it too much, now.

[Jedediah]

guess yo won’t know until you get there huh ?!
God could of created other people at anytime even after Adam , he may be the first but definitely not the last or Adams son could not take a wife other than a sister which would go against Leviticus !

[Jedediah]

To fill something already in existance would be to replenish it from what ever state it was in , it had to be filled just like a glass or a dry creek bed .