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Are You Afraid of Mary “Co-redemptrix”?
Fratres ^ | February 14, 2009 | Dr. Mark Miravalle

Posted on 10/20/2009 8:56:34 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

What is your first response when you hear someone refer to the mother of Jesus Christ as the “Co-redemptrix”?

Extreme? Excessive pietism, even if well-intended? Heresy? Only Jesus is the Redeemer. If not directly heresy, then extremely dangerous? At least anti-ecumenical? At best confusing?

Witness of the Saints

Now let’s look at some people who have in fact called the Virgin Mary the Co-redemptrix: John Paul II (on six different occasions); Bl. Mother Teresa of Calcutta; St. Padre Pio, stigmatic wonder worker of the 20th century; Sr. Lucia, the Fatima visionary; St. Francis Cabrini, the first American citizen to be canonized; St. Jose Maria Escriva, founder of the Opus Dei; St. Edith Stein, co-patroness of Europe; papal theologians Cardinals Ciappiand Cottier; contemporary Church leaders such as Cardinal Schönborn, General Secretary of the Catechism of the Catholic Church; Mother Angelica, foundress of worldwide Catholic television and radio network EWTN; and a host of other saints, popes, mystics, prelates, theologians, doctors of the Church, and lay leaders, with an ecclesial line of succession dating back to the 14th century.

Do we see dangerous extremism, heresy, or any anti-ecumenical spirit in people like John Paul II and Mother Teresa? Would saints like Padre Pio and Mother Cabrini participate in Marian excess to the detriment of Jesus and his Church? Would Cristoph Cardinal Schönborn, general editor of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, use and defend the Co-redemptrix title if it were in any way unorthodox or theologically questionable? Would a Fatima visionary use, explain and defend the Co-redemptrix title six times in her last great writing, Calls from the Message of Fatima, when doing so would be offensive to the Holy See, who granted the imprimatur to her book? Or, even more, to Our Lady herself, with whom Sr. Lucia experienced direct mystical communications for decades?

Why, then, would we fear calling Mary the Co-redemptrix with Jesus, the divine Redeemer of humanity, when these pontiffs, saints, theologians and mystics for the past 700 years have done so?

What do people like John Paul II, Mother Teresa, Padre Pio and the throng of saints, mystics, and popes, precisely mean when they say that Mary is the Co-redemptrix? First of all, let’s be clear as to what do they not mean: 1.) They do not mean that Mary is equal to Jesus. 2.) They do not mean that Mary has an equal share in the redemption of the human family. This would indeed be heresy.

What they do mean when they refer to the Mother of Christ as the Co-redemptrix is that Mary uniquely cooperated with Jesus and entirely subordinate to and dependent upon Jesus, in the historic work of human Redemption.

What is Redemption?

Let’s define our terms. What is Redemption? Redemption is the saving act of Jesus Christ, through his life, Passion, Death, and Resurrection, repairing our relationship with the Father by offering just compensation for the sins of humanity, and thus restoring the possibility of sanctifying grace, and friendship between God and humanity, which results in the inheritance of heaven.

The term, “redemption,” derives from the Latin, redimere, and literally means “to buy back.” Jesus, through the merits of his passion, death, and resurrection buys us back from the bondage of Satan and the debt of original sin.

Can a Creature Participate in Christ’s Redemption?

Now the question remains: can a human creature participate in this divine historic redemptive work of Jesus Christ?

It is important to remember that the Redemption of Jesus Christ is an act of restoring what was lost by two human beings, Adam and Eve. Although Adam, as father of the human race, was principally responsible for the original sin passed on to his descendants (cf. Rom 5:12), Eve also has an instrumental though secondary role in the loss of grace for the human family (cf. Gen 3:6). This is why the Fathers of the Church referred to Mary as the “New Eve” or “Second Eve,” since through her obedience with Jesus Christ the “New Adam” (cf. 1 Cor 15:45), she became in the words of the 2nd century Church Father, St. Irenaeus the “cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race” (Adv. Haer. III, 22, 4: PG 7, 989 A).

But can a human creature participate in a divine act, such as the divine act of Redemption?

Let us begin with ourselves. Can you or I as creatures positively participate in the salvation of someone else by our cooperation? By our prayers, by our good works, by our sacrifices, but our Christian witness, have we done anything that assisted in the “buying back” of another person from the bondage of Satan through the grace of Jesus Christ?

If you are a father or a mother and have raised your children in the Christian faith and had them baptized into the divine life of Jesus, did you not cooperate in their Redemption? What about if you are a priest who has a role in distributing the other sacraments of Jesus? Do you not participate in the redemption of other people, even though, once again, it is completely dependent upon Jesus Christ, the only and all necessary divine Redeemer?

Every time you pray for someone to say yes to Christ; every time you evangelize Christ by word or example; every time you pray to sustain a family member in faith during a crisis; every time you pray for perfect strangers who will die this day to accept their Redeemer with their final earthly breath-in all these prayers and works of Christian intercession, you are cooperating in the Redemption of another human being. You are participating in the application of the saving work of Jesus Christ in buying back members of the human family from Satan and sin.

While it is true that none of us participate in the obtaining of the graces of Redemption merited by Jesus at Calvary, every Christian is nonetheless called to participate in the distribution of his redemptive graces through prayer, sacrifices, and works of faith, hope, and love (cf. Col 1:24). It is precisely our Christian responsibility and obligation to participate in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. This is why Pope John Paul II called all Christians to become “co-redeemers in Christ” (Jan. 13, 1982).

If we, therefore, can and should cooperate in the redemption of others, as long as it is absolutely clear, once again, that it is first and in every way dependent upon the redemption wrought by Christ, the one mediator between God and man (cf. 1 Tim 2:5), then why would there be a problem with the Mother of Jesus cooperating in the Christian Redemption of others as well?

Biblical Witness to Mary Co-redemptrix

In fact, the Bible reveals that the Mother of Jesus cooperated in the historic act of Jesus’ Redemption like no other creature.

At the Annunciation Lk 1:38, when Mary says “let it be to me according to your word” Lk 1:38 to the angel Gabriel to become the Mother of Jesus, can we not say that she uniquely contributes to the mission of Redemption by giving to the Redeemer, the very instrument of Redemption – his human body? The Letter to the Hebrews tells us that “we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Heb 10:10). The instrument of Redemption was given personally and intimately to Jesus by Mary. What other creature, in virtue of the Incarnation alone, could claim to have a more direct and proximate cooperation with Jesus in his redemptive mission? But it does not stop there.

When the infant Christ is presented by Mary in the Temple and the prophet Simeon identifies Jesus as the “sign of contradiction” who will fulfill his redemptive mission (Lk 2:34), Simeon then refers through the power of the Holy Spirit to Mary’s own unique suffering with Jesus in the work of Redemption: “… and a sword shall pierce through your own soul, too” (Lk 2:35).

Scripture explicitly reveals that Mary will have a unique role of suffering with Jesus-the piercing of her heart-because she is so closely and uniquely a cooperator with her Son, the Redeemer. What mother would not suffer in seeing her beloved child die horrifically on the cross, especially if her child was a divine, innocent offering sacrificed for the redemption of the world?

Ultimately, the climactic hour of human Redemption takes place at Calvary (Jn 19:25-27). What happens at Calvary? Jesus is crucified, dies and offers his life in just compensation for the sins of humanity. Mary, Scripture testifies, is present, for the fulfillment of the self-same mission of Redemption. What is happening in the heart of Mary? She is faithfully offering the suffering of her Son, joined with her own, in obedience to the Father’s plan for Redemption. As a result of her unparalleled suffering with the Redeemer, the dying Christ gives, as his final gift to John and to all who seek to be beloved disciples of Christ, the gift of his coredemptive mother to be our own: “Woman, behold your son … Behold, your mother” (Jn 19:26-27).

Regarding both the Incarnation and the Redemption, the Bible reveals that Mary uniquely cooperated with Jesus in the historic work of Redemption. It is little wonder that as a result of her unparalleled sharing in the obtaining of the graces of Redemption, that God would see fit to grant the Mother of the Redeemer the privileged role of the distribution of the graces of Redemption as the spiritual mother of all peoples (cf. Lk 1:38; Jn 2:1-10; Jn 19:25-27; Rev 12:1).

Do we intercede by our prayers to bring the saving graces of Jesus Christ to others? Then why not, and especially, the Mother of Christ?

“Crucified spiritually with her crucified Son … Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son.”

Pope John Paul II (Jan. 31, 1985)

“Mary is our Co-redemptrix with Jesus. She gave Jesus his body and suffered with him at the foot of the cross.”

Bl. Mother Teresa (Aug. 14, 1993)

Are you afraid to call Mary the Co-redemptrix? You shouldn’t be. John Paul II, Mother Teresa, Padre Pio, Sr. Lucia, and the endless list of other saints, mystics, popes, theologians, and Christian faithful who refer to her as Co-redemptrix do so with the assurance of Scripture, the Papal Magisterium, and the consolation of the Holy Spirit.

It is safe, it is true, and it is a title that she overwhelmingly deserves in virtue of the greatest human suffering in the history of man after that of her Son – a suffering offered in union with Jesus, for you and for me.

Be not afraid of Mary Co-redemptrix.

Dr. Mark Miravalle

Professor of Theology and Mariology

Franciscan University of Steubenville

President – Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrici

 For more information on Mary Co-redemptrix, or to join the millions who have already submitted their petition to Pope Benedict XVI for a fifth Marian dogma of Mary Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate,

visit:

fifthmariandogma.com


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholicobsession; coredemptrix; mary
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....let’s look at some people who have in fact called the Virgin Mary the Co-redemptrix: John Paul II (on six different occasions); Bl. Mother Teresa of Calcutta; St. Padre Pio, stigmatic wonder worker of the 20th century; Sr. Lucia, the Fatima visionary; St. Francis Cabrini, the first American citizen to be canonized; St. Jose Maria Escriva, founder of the Opus Dei; St. Edith Stein, co-patroness of Europe; papal theologians Cardinals Ciappiand Cottier; contemporary Church leaders such as Cardinal Schönborn, General Secretary of the Catechism of the Catholic Church; Mother Angelica, foundress of worldwide Catholic television and radio network EWTN; and a host of other saints, popes, mystics, prelates, theologians, doctors of the Church, and lay leaders, with an ecclesial line of succession dating back to the 14th century.

Do we see dangerous extremism, heresy, or any anti-ecumenical spirit in people like John Paul II and Mother Teresa? Would saints like Padre Pio and Mother Cabrini participate in Marian excess to the detriment of Jesus and his Church? Would Cristoph Cardinal Schönborn, general editor of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, use and defend the Co-redemptrix title if it were in any way unorthodox or theologically questionable? Would a Fatima visionary use, explain and defend the Co-redemptrix title six times in her last great writing, Calls from the Message of Fatima, when doing so would be offensive to the Holy See, who granted the imprimatur to her book? Or, even more, to Our Lady herself, with whom Sr. Lucia experienced direct mystical communications for decades?

Why, then, would we fear calling Mary the Co-redemptrix with Jesus, the divine Redeemer of humanity, when these pontiffs, saints, theologians and mystics for the past 700 years have done so?

1 posted on 10/20/2009 8:56:36 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy

John 14:6 et al.

res ipsa loquitur


2 posted on 10/20/2009 9:00:44 AM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur)
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To: Blueflag

Freep me if you want off the cult watch list ...


3 posted on 10/20/2009 9:03:37 AM PDT by Scythian
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To: Alex Murphy

The leadership of the Catholic church, if it’s not filled with pedophiles and active homosexuals, is filled with people who don’t understand Scripture and think Mary is Our Savior (well, along with Christ as an “also-ran”).


4 posted on 10/20/2009 9:03:59 AM PDT by ConservativeMind (There is no "gray area" on issues. See things from both sides, but choose the right side.)
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To: ConservativeMind

You’re full of it!


5 posted on 10/20/2009 9:19:49 AM PDT by notaliberal (Right-wing extremist)
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To: notaliberal

Easy, friend.


6 posted on 10/20/2009 9:22:11 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Alex Murphy

Yikes... it’s stuff like this that makes me want to nail a list to a door.

:-)


7 posted on 10/20/2009 9:23:09 AM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: ConservativeMind
filled with people who don’t understand Scripture and think Mary is Our Savior (well, along with Christ as an “also-ran”).

Umm, no. St. Louis de Montfort is one of those who probably had the most "excessive" Marian devotion, and this is what he said:

61. Jesus, our Saviour, true God and true man must be the ultimate end of all our other devotions; otherwise they would be false and misleading. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and end of everything. "We labour," says St. Paul, "only to make all men perfect in Jesus Christ."

For in him alone dwells the entire fullness of the divinity and the complete fullness of grace, virtue and perfection. In him alone we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing; he is the only teacher from whom we must learn; the only Lord on whom we should depend; the only Head to whom we should be united and the only model that we should imitate. He is the only Physician that can heal us; the only Shepherd that can feed us; the only Way that can lead us; the only Truth that we can believe; the only Life that can animate us. He alone is everything to us and he alone can satisfy all our desires.

We are given no other name under heaven by which we can be saved. God has laid no other foundation for our salvation, perfection and glory than Jesus. Every edifice which is not built on that firm rock, is founded upon shifting sands and will certainly fall sooner or later. Every one of the faithful who is not united to him is like a branch broken from the stem of the vine. It falls and withers and is fit only to be burnt. If we live in Jesus and Jesus lives in us, we need not fear damnation. Neither angels in heaven nor men on earth, nor devils in hell, no creature whatever can harm us, for no creature can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. Through him, with him and in him, we can do all things and render all honour and glory to the Father in the unity of the Holy Spirit; we can make ourselves perfect and be for our neighbour a fragrance of eternal life.

62. If then we are establishing sound devotion to our Blessed Lady, it is only in order to establish devotion to our Lord more perfectly, by providing a smooth but certain way of reaching Jesus Christ. If devotion to our Lady distracted us from our Lord, we would have to reject it as an illusion of the devil. But this is far from being the case. As I have already shown and will show again later on, this devotion is necessary, simply and solely because it is a way of reaching Jesus perfectly, loving him tenderly, and serving him faithfully.

8 posted on 10/20/2009 9:23:16 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Alex Murphy

I like the biblical Mary. I do not like what the Roman Catholics have done to Mary. Mary never elevated herself or saying she was sinless, or spent any time developing a huge theology behind herself like the Roman church has done. She always pointed people’s attention off of her and back to Christ.

I believe the Roman church has spent so much time and effort behind this in part for guilt and to appease their women because they feel guilty for not allowing women priests. Which is ridiculous to feel that way, because the Bible is clear that only a certain quality of men can lead the people of God. They may feel guilty because they almost never remove men that have failed to be the kind of men qualified to lead the church. And in many cases, have known about problems and instead of dealing with them properly, they became enablers and just shuttled the problem around from parish to parish.


9 posted on 10/20/2009 9:25:31 AM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: notaliberal

1 Corinthians 10

“Let no temptation take hold on you, but such as is human. And God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able: but will make also with temptation issue, that you may be able to bear it.”

:)


10 posted on 10/20/2009 9:33:46 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: notaliberal

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


11 posted on 10/20/2009 9:39:39 AM PDT by wdp
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To: Pyro7480
If then we are establishing sound devotion to our Blessed Lady, it is only in order to establish devotion to our Lord more perfectly, by providing a smooth but certain way of reaching Jesus Christ. If devotion to our Lady distracted us from our Lord, we would have to reject it as an illusion of the devil.

There should be no "devotion" to anyone, save for Christ. Did the even the Jews have "devotion" to Moses?
12 posted on 10/20/2009 10:28:43 AM PDT by ConservativeMind (There is no "gray area" on issues. See things from both sides, but choose the right side.)
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To: Alex Murphy
It clearly says in the bible He has to do whatever she tells Him to do. Like make wine for example. Therefore, id est, no one comes to the Father or the Son except thru Mary. And then why stop there? Pray to all the dead people you can think of, even tho you have no idea where they are, just presume they went to heaven. That's the ticket

Theology is fun

13 posted on 10/20/2009 10:41:13 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: Alex Murphy; Scythian; Blueflag; ConservativeMind; Ramius; Secret Agent Man; wdp; ...
For all the simple, unlearned minds on this thread, the term co-Redemptrix is Latin which when translated into English means the woman with the Redeemer. It does not mean that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the equal of the Redeemer.

You may all return to your life of blissful ignorance.

14 posted on 10/20/2009 11:15:43 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Oh. Then the article could’ve said that. Would save time.

:-)


15 posted on 10/20/2009 11:21:20 AM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: ConservativeMind

You’re not understanding. Re-read the first sentence. True devotion to Mary only points one and bring one closer to Christ.


16 posted on 10/20/2009 11:27:19 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Why would Catholics use an English term that breaks down as this:

“Co” - meaning “equal” or “like”
“Redemptrix” - meaning “feminine Redeemer?”

Leave the term as the Latin version rather than corrupting English. Catholics may say this somehow means something much less than an “equal,” but it doesn’t follow as such.

Don’t worry, though. Protestants call all of their ministers, “Popes.” Hope there’s no confusion there.


17 posted on 10/20/2009 11:37:34 AM PDT by ConservativeMind (There is no "gray area" on issues. See things from both sides, but choose the right side.)
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To: Pyro7480

What sort of “devotion” to Mary can be considered legitimate before God? Please show us from Scripture.

Because I’m extremely reasonable and enlightened, I’ll even let you use your Catholic version of the Bible.


18 posted on 10/20/2009 11:57:55 AM PDT by ConservativeMind (There is no "gray area" on issues. See things from both sides, but choose the right side.)
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To: ConservativeMind

That’s a whole separate issue. Sola Scriptura is a tradition of men.


19 posted on 10/20/2009 12:00:42 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480

And the “revelations to Catholics” are, too.

Too bad you don’t have have Scripture to support what you say God wants us to do. Are you sure you aren’t Mormon?


20 posted on 10/20/2009 12:02:12 PM PDT by ConservativeMind (There is no "gray area" on issues. See things from both sides, but choose the right side.)
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To: ConservativeMind

LOL! Mormonism is a false religion. Protestantism is merely, at bare minimum, “misguided.”


21 posted on 10/20/2009 12:05:18 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: ConservativeMind

Oh, is that all you can retort with, “you are too”?


22 posted on 10/20/2009 12:05:59 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Actually not ignorant; nor blissful.

As I read it, the text supplied by the original poster implied believers should award far more fealty to Mary than either Scripture (or Mary herself) proclaim.

and “fealty” also has a Latin root - comes from fidelis (faith)

I believe that NO human is worthy of worship. Jesus was equal parts God and human and thus is the ONLY exception.

You are welcome to believe otherwise without criticism.


23 posted on 10/20/2009 12:24:15 PM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur)
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To: Blueflag
Jesus was equal parts God and human and thus is the ONLY exception.

Just a nit to pick--Jesus was both fully human and fully God, not equal parts of both.

24 posted on 10/20/2009 12:27:03 PM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: ConservativeMind
The leadership of the Catholic church, if it’s not filled with pedophiles and active homosexuals, is filled with people who don’t understand Scripture and think Mary is Our Savior (well, along with Christ as an “also-ran”).

You forgot to mention that the Pope helped Hitler with the Holocaust, the present Pope is lobbying for a one world government and that we're responsible for AIDS in Africa, too.

No sense in being coy. Might as well go for the jugular.

25 posted on 10/20/2009 12:29:12 PM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: ShadowAce

OK. You have a valid semantic and proper nit to pick ;-p

fully human, fully God. not half of each.

i hate it when i screw up the easy stuff ;-)


26 posted on 10/20/2009 12:30:00 PM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur)
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To: 1000 silverlings

whew!

I missed your sarcasm tag ;-p


27 posted on 10/20/2009 12:30:55 PM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

I didn’t say what you accused me of saying.


28 posted on 10/20/2009 12:39:23 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: Ramius

Yeah, nail a list to a door and burn some jews and catholics. Some religion. You protsies are somethin else.


29 posted on 10/20/2009 12:51:20 PM PDT by ichabod1 ( I am rolling over in my grave and I am not even dead yet.)
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To: Secret Agent Man

Pray for us O Holy Mary, Mother of God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

St. Jude, pray for us. St. Thomas a Beckett, pray for us. St. John Fisher, pray for us. St. Thomas More, pray for us. St. Elizabeth Ann Seton, pray for us. Blessed Miguel Pro, pray for us.


30 posted on 10/20/2009 12:53:31 PM PDT by ichabod1 ( I am rolling over in my grave and I am not even dead yet.)
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To: 1000 silverlings

Can God make a rock that’s too heavy for Him to lift?


31 posted on 10/20/2009 12:54:32 PM PDT by ichabod1 ( I am rolling over in my grave and I am not even dead yet.)
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To: ConservativeMind

You’re wrong. Prots call THEMSELVES popes.


32 posted on 10/20/2009 12:56:07 PM PDT by ichabod1 ( I am rolling over in my grave and I am not even dead yet.)
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To: ShadowAce
Jesus was both fully human and fully God, not equal parts of both.

How can this be? This is like the sound of one hand clapping. How can it be?

33 posted on 10/20/2009 12:57:30 PM PDT by ichabod1 ( I am rolling over in my grave and I am not even dead yet.)
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To: ichabod1

Jeez... who tinkled in your wheaties? Lighten up a little. I haven’t burned any apostates for... weeks.


34 posted on 10/20/2009 12:57:59 PM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: marshmallow

NO WAY!1@#@#@(~~! THE POPE DI’NT HELP HITLER!~! THE POPE SAVED THE JEWS!


35 posted on 10/20/2009 12:58:29 PM PDT by ichabod1 ( I am rolling over in my grave and I am not even dead yet.)
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To: Ramius

Well, I haven’t had any Yopios in the morning for weeks either. (Your Own Personal Interpretation Of Scripture).


36 posted on 10/20/2009 12:59:56 PM PDT by ichabod1 ( I am rolling over in my grave and I am not even dead yet.)
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To: ichabod1; 1000 silverlings
Can God make a rock that’s too heavy for Him to lift?

Are you saying the Virgin Mary looks fat?


37 posted on 10/20/2009 1:01:40 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him" - Job 13:15)
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To: ichabod1

Queen of England would say the Pope tried to have her killed. The Vatican-endorsed Spanish Inquisition killed huge numbers of people.

I’d say the Vatican has plenty to be apologizing for, not the least of which is how it constantly misleads its parishioners.


38 posted on 10/20/2009 1:06:52 PM PDT by ConservativeMind (There is no "gray area" on issues. See things from both sides, but choose the right side.)
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To: ichabod1

There it goes again, asking someone dead to “pray” for someone on Earth.

Really Biblical, there.


39 posted on 10/20/2009 1:08:33 PM PDT by ConservativeMind (There is no "gray area" on issues. See things from both sides, but choose the right side.)
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To: Alex Murphy

“What is your first response when you hear someone refer to the mother of Jesus Christ as the “Co-redemptrix”?

Extreme? Excessive pietism, even if well-intended? Heresy?”

Heresy


40 posted on 10/20/2009 4:14:21 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Alex Murphy

I’m not afraid of it. I just think it’s the wrong answer.

“This is my body...this is my blood...” is the heart of the sacrifice. “He’s alive” is the heart of the resurrection.

No matter what kind of allegorical parallelism anyone tries to heap on it, the bottom line is that Jesus alone is the one who actually accomplished it.


41 posted on 10/20/2009 4:55:57 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: Secret Agent Man; Alex Murphy
I like the biblical Mary.

FWIW, I agree.

I think there is strong evidence she didn't really know who Jesus was until the Resurrection. She rebuked Jesus when he stayed at the Temple and was confused when He said I am at my Father's house. She came for Him with his brother's and sister's to take Him home because she thought He was crazy. Her actions are not those of one who knows this is the Son of God.

No matter what the case is she deserves our respect.

42 posted on 10/20/2009 5:01:27 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Kolokotronis; Alex Murphy
Heresy

Wow, I find myself in agreement with you.

43 posted on 10/20/2009 5:03:28 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights

Well, I think she did know who Jesus was, because as a young girl you just don’t get angels appearing to you telling you you’re going to have God’s son, and then you’re pregnant but haven’t slept with anyone. Further the wise men eventually finding them a couple years after his birth to pay homage to Him, and Joseph having the warning dream to flee to Egypt to escape Herod. I think like many Jews around that time however, that she (only in my opinion, mind you) may have thought that He would have at some point set up a physical kingdom during His lifetime then, somehow. Not being beaten, appearing to have lost and dying on the cross. I think she may not have known exactly HOW him dying and such was the method Christ would begin setting up His kingdom.


44 posted on 10/20/2009 5:11:11 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

If all it meant was that she had cooperated with Christ, then there would be as much justification - indeed, a lot more - to call Paul or John “Co-redeemers”!

It is silly to suggest that this title would just mean she had obeyed God in the role He gave her. If that was all, then Mr Rogers could be called ‘Co-redeemer’.

This is another attempt to elevate her to a role Jesus did NOT give her. He didn’t even call her “Mother”, let alone “Co-Redemptrix”!

In every part of His ministry, He denied her glory - or a significant role at all!


45 posted on 10/20/2009 5:28:32 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Alex Murphy

Mary - the evidence of scripture

The following lists the accounts of Jesus saying something to or about Mary:

The first 3 are different accounts of the same event.

“46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” - Matt 12

31 Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him. 32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You.” 33 But He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?” 34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” - Mark 3

19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.” 21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” - Luke 8

In this account, a woman sought to give honor to Mary:

“While he was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.” He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” — Luke 11

I’ll note here that the NAB footnotes say, “The beatitude in Luke 11:28 should not be interpreted as a rebuke of the mother of Jesus; see the note on Luke 8:21. Rather, it emphasizes (like Luke 2:35) that attentiveness to God’s word is more important than biological relationship to Jesus.”

There is the Wedding at Cana:

1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. 3 And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” 4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”

6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.”...You have kept the good wine until now!”...12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days. — John 2

The Catholic footnote in the NAB: “4 [4] This verse may seek to show that Jesus did not work miracles to help his family and friends, as in the apocryphal gospels. Woman: a normal, polite form of address, but unattested in reference to one’s mother. Cf also John 19:26. How does your concern affect me?: literally, “What is this to me and to you?”—a Hebrew expression of either hostility (Judges 11:12; 2 Chron 35:21; 1 Kings 17:18) or denial of common interest (Hosea 14:9; 2 Kings 3:13). Cf Mark 1:24; 5:7 used by demons to Jesus. My hour has not yet come: the translation as a question (”Has not my hour now come?”), while preferable grammatically and supported by Greek Fathers, seems unlikely from a comparison with John 7:6, 30. The “hour” is that of Jesus’ passion, death, resurrection, and ascension (John 13:1).”

And finally, we have the scene at the cross:

25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. — John 19

A few points seem significant:

1) Jesus never calls her “Mother”, let alone “Queen of Heaven’ or “Spouse of the Holy Spirit”. He only calls her “Woman”. Even Catholic scholars say, “Woman: a normal, polite form of address, but unattested in reference to one’s mother. Cf also John 19:26. How does your concern affect me?: literally, “What is this to me and to you?”—a Hebrew expression of either hostility (Judges 11:12; 2 Chron 35:21; 1 Kings 17:18) or denial of common interest (Hosea 14:9; 2 Kings 3:13). Cf Mark 1:24; 5:7 used by demons to Jesus.”

2) There is only one example in scripture of Mary being exalted by a human - Luke 11.28 Not only does Jesus not concur, but He actively denies the attention paid to Mary: “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

3) Cana ends with this statement: “After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days.” This is one of several verses indicating tension between Jesus and his family - including his mother.

4) When Mary doubted Jesus

Mark 3 provides more detail than covered earlier.

“He came home. Again (the) crowd gathered, making it impossible for them even to eat. When his relatives heard of this they set out to seize him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”...His mother and his brothers arrived. Standing outside they sent word to him and called him.

A crowd seated around him told him, “Your mother and your brothers (and your sisters) are outside asking for you.” But he said to them in reply, “Who are my mother and (my) brothers?” And looking around at those seated in the circle he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. (For) whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.”

It is also important to note what comes between the verse “When his relatives heard of this they set out to seize him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.” and “His mother and his brothers arrived.”

Between his family setting out “to seize them” because “he is out of his mind”, and their arrival, the scribes echo his family’s concerns - “The scribes who had come from Jerusalem said, ‘He is possessed by Beelzebul’...” - and it is here that Jesus teaches on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

And those who wish to exalt Mary ought to pay attention that it wasn’t just his “brothers” who came for him, but “His mother and his brothers”. The Catholic footnotes in the NAB state, “8 [20-35] Within the narrative of the coming of Jesus’ relatives (Mark 3:20-21) is inserted the account of the unbelieving scribes from Jerusalem who attributed Jesus’ power over demons to Beelzebul (Mark 3:22-30); see the note on Mark 5:21-43. There were those even among the relatives of Jesus who disbelieved and regarded Jesus as out of his mind (Mark 3:21). Against this background, Jesus is informed of the arrival of his mother and brothers [and sisters] (Mark 3:32). He responds by showing that not family ties but doing God’s will (35) is decisive in the kingdom; cf the note on Matthew 12:46-50.”

Even with all that happened at the birth of Jesus, Mary came to “seize him” fearing “he is out of his mind”. Arguably, Mary had less responsibility than the brothers, for John 7 says, “For not even his brothers believed in him. Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.” After saying this, he remained in Galilee. But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private.”

HIs brothers refused to believe in John 7. Mary isn’t included with them (nor in Matthew 13), so it seems Mark 3 reflects her doubts and fears, not a fundamental rejection. In like manner, John the Baptist doubted, but didn’t deny. If even John the Baptist and Mary had times of doubts and fears, perhaps God understands our weakness when we do as well.

Mary recovered. She followed Jesus to the cross, and was listed in the believers meeting in Acts 1 (”14All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers”) - after which she drops from view.

There is no doubt Mary was blessed by God, but scripture shows it is wrong to exalt her. Follow her example if trusting God? Excellent! Contemplate her faithfulness? Excellent! Take comfort that her doubts didn’t destroy her? Yes.

But Jesus didn’t call her “Woman” because HE was disrespectful. The only reason Jesus would treat her thus is to emphasize her humanity - not Queen of Heaven, not the Holy Spirit’s Wife - but the human vessel chosen by God for His purposes.


46 posted on 10/20/2009 5:31:21 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers

Should have added:

“And when his parents saw him, they were astonished. And his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been searching for you in great distress.”

And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?”

And they did not understand the saying that he spoke to them. And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was submissive to them. And his mother treasured up all these things in her heart. And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.” — Luke 2

It was before his ministry, but worth mentioning in fairness. I don’t think it shows a special role for her in the redemption of man by Jesus.


47 posted on 10/20/2009 5:37:06 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Secret Agent Man
I think like many Jews around that time however, that she (only in my opinion, mind you) may have thought that He would have at some point set up a physical kingdom during His lifetime then, somehow.

I think this is a possible explanation. Even in this case she really wouldn't understand the enormity of who He is which would explain why she would feel comfortable rebuking Him, or trying to exercise authority over Him by ordering Him to turn water into wine.

48 posted on 10/20/2009 5:42:20 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: ichabod1
It was a Catholic who nailed that list to the door.
49 posted on 10/20/2009 5:48:39 PM PDT by Between the Lines (For their sins of 50 million abortions God gave them over to be an ObamaNation {Romans 1:24-32})
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To: wmfights

“Wow, I find myself in agreement with you.”

:)

Now see, that wasn’t so hard, wf! But before you swoon, or get too concerned, you want to remember that I spend my days, even in the office, with her icons around me...and I even kiss them!


50 posted on 10/20/2009 5:54:59 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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