Posted on 10/20/2009 8:56:34 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
I’m not afraid of it. I just think it’s the wrong answer.
“This is my body...this is my blood...” is the heart of the sacrifice. “He’s alive” is the heart of the resurrection.
No matter what kind of allegorical parallelism anyone tries to heap on it, the bottom line is that Jesus alone is the one who actually accomplished it.
FWIW, I agree.
I think there is strong evidence she didn't really know who Jesus was until the Resurrection. She rebuked Jesus when he stayed at the Temple and was confused when He said I am at my Father's house. She came for Him with his brother's and sister's to take Him home because she thought He was crazy. Her actions are not those of one who knows this is the Son of God.
No matter what the case is she deserves our respect.
Wow, I find myself in agreement with you.
Well, I think she did know who Jesus was, because as a young girl you just don’t get angels appearing to you telling you you’re going to have God’s son, and then you’re pregnant but haven’t slept with anyone. Further the wise men eventually finding them a couple years after his birth to pay homage to Him, and Joseph having the warning dream to flee to Egypt to escape Herod. I think like many Jews around that time however, that she (only in my opinion, mind you) may have thought that He would have at some point set up a physical kingdom during His lifetime then, somehow. Not being beaten, appearing to have lost and dying on the cross. I think she may not have known exactly HOW him dying and such was the method Christ would begin setting up His kingdom.
If all it meant was that she had cooperated with Christ, then there would be as much justification - indeed, a lot more - to call Paul or John “Co-redeemers”!
It is silly to suggest that this title would just mean she had obeyed God in the role He gave her. If that was all, then Mr Rogers could be called ‘Co-redeemer’.
This is another attempt to elevate her to a role Jesus did NOT give her. He didn’t even call her “Mother”, let alone “Co-Redemptrix”!
In every part of His ministry, He denied her glory - or a significant role at all!
Mary - the evidence of scripture
The following lists the accounts of Jesus saying something to or about Mary:
The first 3 are different accounts of the same event.
“46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” - Matt 12
31 Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him. 32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You.” 33 But He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?” 34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” - Mark 3
19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.” 21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” - Luke 8
In this account, a woman sought to give honor to Mary:
“While he was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.” He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” — Luke 11
I’ll note here that the NAB footnotes say, “The beatitude in Luke 11:28 should not be interpreted as a rebuke of the mother of Jesus; see the note on Luke 8:21. Rather, it emphasizes (like Luke 2:35) that attentiveness to God’s word is more important than biological relationship to Jesus.”
There is the Wedding at Cana:
1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. 3 And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” 4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”
6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.”...You have kept the good wine until now!”...12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days. — John 2
The Catholic footnote in the NAB: “4 [4] This verse may seek to show that Jesus did not work miracles to help his family and friends, as in the apocryphal gospels. Woman: a normal, polite form of address, but unattested in reference to one’s mother. Cf also John 19:26. How does your concern affect me?: literally, “What is this to me and to you?”—a Hebrew expression of either hostility (Judges 11:12; 2 Chron 35:21; 1 Kings 17:18) or denial of common interest (Hosea 14:9; 2 Kings 3:13). Cf Mark 1:24; 5:7 used by demons to Jesus. My hour has not yet come: the translation as a question (”Has not my hour now come?”), while preferable grammatically and supported by Greek Fathers, seems unlikely from a comparison with John 7:6, 30. The “hour” is that of Jesus’ passion, death, resurrection, and ascension (John 13:1).”
And finally, we have the scene at the cross:
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. — John 19
A few points seem significant:
1) Jesus never calls her “Mother”, let alone “Queen of Heaven’ or “Spouse of the Holy Spirit”. He only calls her “Woman”. Even Catholic scholars say, “Woman: a normal, polite form of address, but unattested in reference to one’s mother. Cf also John 19:26. How does your concern affect me?: literally, “What is this to me and to you?”—a Hebrew expression of either hostility (Judges 11:12; 2 Chron 35:21; 1 Kings 17:18) or denial of common interest (Hosea 14:9; 2 Kings 3:13). Cf Mark 1:24; 5:7 used by demons to Jesus.”
2) There is only one example in scripture of Mary being exalted by a human - Luke 11.28 Not only does Jesus not concur, but He actively denies the attention paid to Mary: “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”
3) Cana ends with this statement: “After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days.” This is one of several verses indicating tension between Jesus and his family - including his mother.
4) When Mary doubted Jesus
Mark 3 provides more detail than covered earlier.
“He came home. Again (the) crowd gathered, making it impossible for them even to eat. When his relatives heard of this they set out to seize him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”...His mother and his brothers arrived. Standing outside they sent word to him and called him.
A crowd seated around him told him, “Your mother and your brothers (and your sisters) are outside asking for you.” But he said to them in reply, “Who are my mother and (my) brothers?” And looking around at those seated in the circle he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. (For) whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.”
It is also important to note what comes between the verse “When his relatives heard of this they set out to seize him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.” and “His mother and his brothers arrived.”
Between his family setting out “to seize them” because “he is out of his mind”, and their arrival, the scribes echo his family’s concerns - “The scribes who had come from Jerusalem said, ‘He is possessed by Beelzebul’...” - and it is here that Jesus teaches on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
And those who wish to exalt Mary ought to pay attention that it wasn’t just his “brothers” who came for him, but “His mother and his brothers”. The Catholic footnotes in the NAB state, “8 [20-35] Within the narrative of the coming of Jesus’ relatives (Mark 3:20-21) is inserted the account of the unbelieving scribes from Jerusalem who attributed Jesus’ power over demons to Beelzebul (Mark 3:22-30); see the note on Mark 5:21-43. There were those even among the relatives of Jesus who disbelieved and regarded Jesus as out of his mind (Mark 3:21). Against this background, Jesus is informed of the arrival of his mother and brothers [and sisters] (Mark 3:32). He responds by showing that not family ties but doing God’s will (35) is decisive in the kingdom; cf the note on Matthew 12:46-50.”
Even with all that happened at the birth of Jesus, Mary came to “seize him” fearing “he is out of his mind”. Arguably, Mary had less responsibility than the brothers, for John 7 says, “For not even his brothers believed in him. Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.” After saying this, he remained in Galilee. But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private.”
HIs brothers refused to believe in John 7. Mary isn’t included with them (nor in Matthew 13), so it seems Mark 3 reflects her doubts and fears, not a fundamental rejection. In like manner, John the Baptist doubted, but didn’t deny. If even John the Baptist and Mary had times of doubts and fears, perhaps God understands our weakness when we do as well.
Mary recovered. She followed Jesus to the cross, and was listed in the believers meeting in Acts 1 (”14All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers”) - after which she drops from view.
There is no doubt Mary was blessed by God, but scripture shows it is wrong to exalt her. Follow her example if trusting God? Excellent! Contemplate her faithfulness? Excellent! Take comfort that her doubts didn’t destroy her? Yes.
But Jesus didn’t call her “Woman” because HE was disrespectful. The only reason Jesus would treat her thus is to emphasize her humanity - not Queen of Heaven, not the Holy Spirit’s Wife - but the human vessel chosen by God for His purposes.
Should have added:
“And when his parents saw him, they were astonished. And his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been searching for you in great distress.”
And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?”
And they did not understand the saying that he spoke to them. And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was submissive to them. And his mother treasured up all these things in her heart. And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.” — Luke 2
It was before his ministry, but worth mentioning in fairness. I don’t think it shows a special role for her in the redemption of man by Jesus.
I think this is a possible explanation. Even in this case she really wouldn't understand the enormity of who He is which would explain why she would feel comfortable rebuking Him, or trying to exercise authority over Him by ordering Him to turn water into wine.
“Wow, I find myself in agreement with you.”
:)
Now see, that wasn’t so hard, wf! But before you swoon, or get too concerned, you want to remember that I spend my days, even in the office, with her icons around me...and I even kiss them!
I know what you’re saying in general. I guess I never thought she was “ordering” Him to turn the water into wine at the wedding. I always remember the story is that she asked Him to do it, and then went to the others helping at the wedding to “do whatever He tells you.”
But part of the human experience was being a parent, and even though Jesus knew who He was, He was also her child. And she would be “mom” to Him. Many moms had prophets with powers from God, and I am sure she felt a lot of similarities that those mothers had with their sons. But when you see your prophet son crucified what are you to think, has something really gone wrong? How does God get the victory by dying a criminal’s death? No doubt she, like the Apostles, began to fully figure this out after His resurrection.
great post, gonna save for later.
Do you do the same for Gideon and Daniel?
“Do you do the same for Gideon and Daniel? “
I have never seen an icon of the Prophet Gideon, though I suspect they exist. As for the Prophet Daniel, well we have his icon at my parish and I do venerate it by kissing it and then making my cross. Same with the icons of the Prophets Elias and Isiah and of King David.
I think this is probably closest to her mindset.
But when you see your prophet son crucified what are you to think, has something really gone wrong? How does God get the victory by dying a criminal’s death? No doubt she, like the Apostles, began to fully figure this out after His resurrection.
Exactly!
Mary is a great example of a devoted mom at the time of the crucifixion. She's also not dissimilar from mom's in general not always understanding, but always concerned. Elevating her beyond that is where the train leaves the tracks.
I think John came the closest to truly understanding before the Resurrection.
You get an "A" for consistency. They were all highly favored, or blessed by God.
I wouldn’t even hazard a guess as to who knew what/the most before the resurrection.
Don’t forget the St. Bartholomew’s Day massacre.
The RCC were the masters when it came to bloodshed.
I was in prayer and thinking about Mary in prayer. This thought came to me. If God The Father entrusted Jesus to the world through Mary then why can we not entrust our prayers to her to Jesus? There is little said about Mary in the Bible, but what is said says speaks volumes. Wedding at Cana...Mary says do as He tells you. The presentation of Jesus in the temple. Mary always leads us to Jesus.
Whether or not you believe what Catholics believe at least show Mary alittle respect. After all she was chosen by God to raise the child and to be at the foot of the cross. It was God The Fathers decision to choose Mary. If she was good enough for God The Father she is good enough for me.
And here I just spent two days listening to various RCs insisting no Roman Catholic considers Mary a “Co-Redeemer.”
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