Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Bulgarian Orthodox want speedy reunion with Rome!
Da Mihi ^ | October 23, 2009 | Fr. Steve Leake

Posted on 10/23/2009 7:05:19 AM PDT by NYer

Pope Benedict has sure gotten the ball rolling and it seems others want to get into the ecumenical action! Thanks to A Catholic Knight on this one:


A Bulgarian Orthodox prelate told Benedict XVI of his desire for unity, and his commitment to accelerate communion with the Catholic Church.

At the end of Wednesday's general audience, Bishop Tichon, head of the diocese for Central and Western Europe of the Patriarchate of Bulgaria, stated to the Pope, "We must find unity as soon as possible and finally celebrate together," L'Osservatore Romano reported.

"People don't understand our divisions and our discussions," the bishop stated. He affirmed that he will "not spare any efforts" to work for the quick restoration of "communion between Catholics and Orthodox."

Bishop Tichon said that "the theological dialogue that is going forward in these days in Cyprus is certainly important, but we should not be afraid to say that we must find as soon as possible the way to celebrate together."

"A Catholic will not become an Orthodox and vice versa, but we must approach the altar together," he added.

The prelate told the Pontiff that "this aspiration is a feeling that arose from the works of the assembly" of his diocese, held in Rome, in which all the priests and two delegates from every Bulgarian Orthodox parish took part.

"We have come to the Pope to express our desire for unity and also because he is the Bishop of Rome, the city that hosted our assembly," he stated.

Initiatives

After the bishop, Luka Bebic, speaker of the Croatian Parliament, addressed the Holy Father, inviting the Pontiff to visit his homeland and thanking him "for the support the Holy See has given our people since independence, during the war back then and now in the process that will lead Croatia to enter the European Union."

Benedict XVI next greeted members of the Association Rondine Cittadella della Pace [Citadel of Peace], which promotes dialogue and peace by bringing together students from conflict areas to live and study in community.

They shared with the Pope a concrete proposal titled "14 Points for Peace in the Caucasus" that was developed at an international congress the association organized in May.

The proposal was also distributed to the ambassadors of the Caucasus countries and to the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe. Young people of all the ethnic and religious groups of the Caucasus were also present at the audience.

Members of the Congregation of the Sisters of Charity of Cardinal Sancha, whose founder, Cardinal Ciriaco María Sancha y Hervas, was beatified Sunday in Toledo, Spain, also greeted the Pontiff. Headed by their superior, Sister Maria del Carmen Dominguez, the religious expressed to the Holy Father their commitment to be faithful to their original charism "of service to the poor, orphans and the elderly."

Via Catholic.net


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; Orthodox Christian
KEYWORDS: b16; benedictxvi; bulgarianorthodox; catholic; ecumenism; orthodox; pope; vatican
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-63 next last

1 posted on 10/23/2009 7:05:19 AM PDT by NYer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: NYer

Get him a Form 100!


2 posted on 10/23/2009 7:06:23 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Fulfilling Christ’s mandate ... “That all may be one”.


3 posted on 10/23/2009 7:06:25 AM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Also here.
4 posted on 10/23/2009 7:13:07 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: NYer

PRAISE GOD!!!

These are astonishing developments, and somehow I feel that Pope Benedict has accomplished them by getting professional ecumenists out of the way.


5 posted on 10/23/2009 7:15:35 AM PDT by TheGeezer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
As I stated yesterday, the unintended (intended?) consequence of Benedict's outreach to the Anglicans, with a structural componenet in mind, is that it has almost completely de-scandalized the process of reunification (read: political cover).

As the saying goes, "where there's smoke, there's fire". The reunification could come as quickly and be as transformative as the fall of the Soviet satellites back in 1989...The path of least resistance is no longer to oppose Rome, but to join her.

Rejoice!!

6 posted on 10/23/2009 7:16:24 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

**He affirmed that he will “not spare any efforts” to work for the quick restoration of “communion between Catholics and Orthodox.”**

Encouraging!


7 posted on 10/23/2009 7:17:12 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

This is so exciting!
It’s amazing how The Lord is working to bring us all together!


8 posted on 10/23/2009 7:27:18 AM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Interesting. The picture is not of +Tichon nor is he the “head” of the “...diocese for Central and Western Europe of the Patriarchate of Bulgaria”. Met. Simeon is.

Maybe Rome ought to just simmer down a bit before there is a real, worldwide Orthodox backlash against it.


9 posted on 10/23/2009 7:39:42 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis

Bishop Tichon was appointed Administrating Bishop of the Bulgarian Eastern Orthodox Diocese in Western and Central Europe on July 29, 2009. Metropolitan Simeon withdrew from the management of the diocese because of deteriorating health and currently lives in in Phoenix, Arizona.

10 posted on 10/23/2009 8:09:24 AM PDT by Petrosius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: NYer
"A Catholic will not become an Orthodox and vice versa, but we must approach the altar together".

That quote say's alot for Christian Unity in this age of Islamic Ascendancy.

11 posted on 10/23/2009 8:13:28 AM PDT by gitmogrunt (Time to put up, or shut up!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis
Maybe Rome ought to just simmer down a bit before there is a real, worldwide Orthodox backlash against it.

LOL........you mean like the Orthodox will really get mad at us, now?

Like the previous millenium was just pretend?

It's a good time, Kolo. First millenium together, second millenium apart, third millenium together........

Give it some thought......you know you want to....... :-)

12 posted on 10/23/2009 8:21:08 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Amazing, thank God for Popes Benedict and John Paul II, what was seeming improbable (for man) is coming together and these two Popes have worked hard in a relatively short time to bring it about.


13 posted on 10/23/2009 8:38:22 AM PDT by fortunecookie (Please pray for Anna, age 7, who waits for a new kidney.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: NYer
"People don't understand our divisions and our discussions," the bishop stated. He affirmed that he will "not spare any efforts" to work for the quick restoration of "communion between Catholics and Orthodox."

Bishop Tichon said that "the theological dialogue that is going forward in these days in Cyprus is certainly important, but we should not be afraid to say that we must find as soon as possible the way to celebrate together."

Seems quite a note of urgency there.

14 posted on 10/23/2009 8:38:30 AM PDT by Lorica
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow

” LOL........you mean like the Orthodox will really get mad at us, now?

Like the previous millenium was just pretend? “

The last time around it was just a few Greeks and Russians who were against the union. Now among the laity its pretty much everyone so far as I can see. The hierarchs have gotten way out in front of the people, out on a limb so to speak. That might work with Latin ecclesiology. With us it may well mean that the limb will get sawed off. I predict it will stay that way until some sort of concrete terms or reunion can be produced for an Ecumenical Council. Neither the Latin Church nor the Orthodox Churches are rump movements composed of disgruntled former members of a larger ecclesial group. A deal with hierarchs in Synod or synods isn’t going to do it, though that’s exactly what has/will do it with the TAC group.

“Give it some thought......you know you want to....... :-)”

I want it to work very much...when we believe the exact same things and a common ecclesiology, but not one moment before. That’s why we need a council; that’s why the dialogs are about the proper exercise and extent of the Petrine office.Without complete agreement on that, absolutely nothing else can be accomplished.


15 posted on 10/23/2009 8:46:48 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: NYer

This is the fall of the Berlin Wall 20 years later,

but in a seemingly opposite context, which is actually not at all opposite - and is rather similar in that

both situations demonstrate that while free access to truth and beauty can be suppressed, the yearning for it can not be.


16 posted on 10/23/2009 8:54:23 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (Wer glaubt ist nie allein. Who believes is never alone.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

And I want to clarify right away that ALL MEN have been denied this free access

because we have all suffered during these schisms

and these schisms are due to the imperfections of fallible MEN whose prudential judgments were fallible in trying to conduct geo-politics and church affairs.

While Peter’s Successors have never pronounced fallible doctrine, over the many centuries they and their counterparts in the various schismatic groups have all played imperfect games of chess when it comes to healing the schisms.


17 posted on 10/23/2009 8:59:36 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (Wer glaubt ist nie allein. Who believes is never alone.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

And while all MEN have likely yearned over these many centuries that “we may be one”, we have been denied that outward reality even if we have felt a very real warmth of hearts across the chasm of schism. In that way, it seems to me quite similar to the solidarity that some of us may have felt with the people in the Soviet republics during the Cold War, despite the failure of our leaders to end the nonsense that caused it.


18 posted on 10/23/2009 9:03:25 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (Wer glaubt ist nie allein. Who believes is never alone.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: fortunecookie; marshmallow; Lorica; Rutles4Ever; netmilsmom
thank God for Popes Benedict and John Paul II, what was seeming improbable (for man) is coming together and these two Popes have worked hard in a relatively short time to bring it about.

I have to laugh ... when Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger's name was announced as the new pontiff, so many in the media and even in the church, cited his age and concluded that he was an 'interim' pope who would not accomplish very much. Lol!!!

19 posted on 10/23/2009 10:43:24 AM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Here is the Bulgarian source:

Bishop of Tiveriopol Tikhon on fraternal relations... (Vatican Radio)

Here's Google translation in spots corrected by me.

Bishop of Tiveriopol Tikhon of fraternal relations with Catholics and pastoral care for Orthodox Bulgarians in Western and Central Europe

16 to 21 October in Rome held VIII diocesan council of The Central and Western Dioceses of Bulgarian Orthodox Church. Council of the Bulgarian Orthodox believers in the European diaspora took place in the church of St. Anastasia and Vikentiy "for the use of a Bulgarian Orthodox community in Rome by Pope John Paul II. In the council participated Bulgarian priests and laity from different European countries like Netherlands, England, Hungary, Spain, Portugal. It was chaired by Bishop Tikhon Tiveropolskiya, Managing The Central and Western Dioceses of Bulgarian Orthodox Church. It was also attended as observers of the diocesan council by representatives of the Vatican State Secretariat, vicar of Rome, Pontifical Council for East and Red Pontifical Council for the Promotion of Christian Unity on the last day of the diocesan council VIII, participants attended a general audience with Pope Benedict XVI, who after a brief cetechetical talk greeted them in Bulgarian language. More about the council and held talks with the Holy Father, before the microphones of Radio Vatican says managing Western and Central European province of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, Bishop Tikhon.

Your high Grace, would you tell us a little more about the VIII council of the Bulgarian Orthodox believers in Western and Central Europe that took place in Rome?
The catholicity (sabornost) of the Church is something that always interested the Bulgarian people. In no [other] Orthodox country the archbishops or bishops, as you call them in the Catholic Church, in a diocese or patriarchate are chosen by both the clergy and the people. In other Orthodox countries they are elected only by the Bishops' colleges, whereas with us also the people participate. In this line and at the request of West and Central and Metropolitan Simeon some time ago the people diocesan church council was created, which consists of all parish priests and two delegates from each parish. Then it was decided that council to the electoral council and future bishops of Western and Central European diocese. Moreover, the council shall renew their mandates and delegates every two years. This was the reason for conducting VIII diocesan council in the church of St. Vikentiy and Anastasius in Rome, which was given to the Bulgarian Orthodox community of the late John Paul II.

Who were the participants in the council?
In the assembly was attended by all our parish priests from across Europe, ranging from Portugal and Spain, and go north to Stockholm and Oslo and the west to London, Budapest and Zagreb. Involving all parishes of Europe, which is about 27. Each parish had its 2 delegate laymen. The council also comprises the diocesan council which is elected by this council. This means that I manage the diocese not singly but with the councel, which involves two priests and two laymen, who advise me on all issues and all administrative matters.

Why was the city of Rome chosen as a place for holding the council?
We wanted it to be the city of Rome, because the time is ripe for our close relationship with the Catholic Church to gain a little more color. In the sense that our mission here in Western Europe without the help of the Catholic Church, given us now and hopefully in the future, would have been absolutely impossible. I must admit that such a brotherly relationship that I have received from bishops, archbishops and cardinals I rarely receive from some of my brothers in Bulgaria. I think that brotherly love had to be shown and the other delegates and priests, because our mission is not only that to be better Orthodox Christians or that we Bulgarians to be true Christians in the west, but also to realize that in fact we all in a church that is separated by men, but obviously not by God.

In the context of fraternal relations and dialogue with Catholic Church, a delegation from the council attended the general audience with Pope Benedict XVI on 21 October of which were specially greeted the Bulgarian language and through you the greetings were sent to Patriarch Maxim. At the end of the audience held a brief conversation with the Pope, if not a secret, would you have shared the words that you said the Holy Father?
Words I will not quote, ultimately they were something like a conversation between two bishops, even more, a spiritual conversation between a son and a spiritual father. First, I thanked His Holiness, that we received at this general audience and as we have seen given to the most honorable places. The chair, whereupon I sat, in the past at other major celebrations was the chair of the Patriarch of Constantinople. What I said is that I pray for his blessing and his prayers for my fight and my decision to do absolutely everything for the unification of our churches in Europe which was the idea of John Paul II: Christianity to breathe with both its lungs. I do not like to talk about the discussions because they are for people who are specialists, while I'm a practical man and we want to know each other, to learn to love each other, to be able to extend a helping hand without being afraid what might happen with one thing or another. To this hand extended by the Catholic Church want to respond with my love for her.

Currently in Paphos a meeting of the Joint Group on International Theological Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, which is to examine the role of the bishop of Rome in the first millennium. How do you think this meeting will conclude?
These meetings are of church politics and theology and church canons. I am a pastor and am responsible for my Christian flock, when most of them are married to Catholics. I am interested what will the future of their children and their grandchildren be, this is my true concern. I will obey any decision they take, but my behavior to my fraternal Catholic church will not change despite anything.

Pale Chalakova

Note that Bp. Tikhon is the pastor of Bulgarian diaspora in Europe and speaks for the flock that is in practice unified with the Catholics already.

20 posted on 10/23/2009 10:53:46 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: annalex

Thank you for posting the Vatican Radio source. There are two threads running on this topic, bothwith interesting comments.


21 posted on 10/23/2009 11:10:40 AM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis
it may well mean that the limb will get sawed off.

This is very interesting. Of course it would never happen that every single member of the hierarchy would enter communion with Rome, but if a large majority did so, would the people really refuse to follow? Where would they be then? Would they muddle through with improvised structures rather than follow their own bishops? Could an entire hierarchy be re-constituted from Athonite diehards?

I am very ready to believe that American Catholics have congregationalist tendencies, but I'd never have believed this of the Orthodox. Or is it a matter of national sentiment? Either way, if what you say is true, I'd conclude that the lack of ecclesial sense in the West has an Eastern doppelganger.

22 posted on 10/23/2009 11:18:27 AM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Romulus

“Of course it would never happen that every single member of the hierarchy would enter communion with Rome, but if a large majority did so, would the people really refuse to follow?”

After the Council of Florence with its ill fated reunion, virtually all the hierarchs were on board. +Mark of Ephesus alone refused to sign it. When the delegation returned to Constantinople,the people scorned their bishops and publicly taunted them as traitors to the Faith. Some were toppled from their thrones, not only in the Empire but also up in Russia. The EP Joseph had died at Florence and no bishop would accept the Patriarchial throne as it would have required him to go forward with the reunion. The people, monastics and lower clergy, almost unanimously supported Mark of Ephesus and within a few years all the Patriarchs condemned and rejected the Union. The ecclesiology of the Orthodox Church, with its well defined roles for the hierarchs, monastics, lower clergy and laity, worked just fine. Similar though not so dramatic incidents have happened time and again over the centuries, as recently as the late 1990s actually.

“Either way, if what you say is true, I’d conclude that the lack of ecclesial sense in the West has an Eastern doppelganger.”

Very, very different ecclesiology, R.


23 posted on 10/23/2009 11:50:53 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: NYer; marshmallow; Lorica; Rutles4Ever; netmilsmom
I have to laugh ... when Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger's name was announced as the new pontiff, so many in the media and even in the church, cited his age and concluded that he was an 'interim' pope who would not accomplish very much. Lol!!!

I agree, you said it! Not only is Pope Benedict picking up where Pope John Paul left off (working toward unity), he is busy 'burning the midnight oil' to be active and productive with Encyclicals and other writings and works, not to mention pilgrimages of his own. He's a real blessing to us, just what we needed, when we needed it.

24 posted on 10/23/2009 11:54:44 AM PDT by fortunecookie (Please pray for Anna, age 7, who waits for a new kidney.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis
See that you all follow the Bishop, as Christ does the Father, and the presbyterium as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as a command of God. Let no one do anything connected with the Church without the Bishop. Let that be considered a certain [βεβαια, "valid"] eucharist which is under the leadership of the Bishop, or one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the Bishop appears, there let the multitude of the people be; just as where Christ Jesus is, there is the catholic church [ἡ καθολικὴ ἐκκλησία]. —St. Ignatius of Antioch, c. 111 AD, Letter to the Smyrneans 8
25 posted on 10/23/2009 12:01:46 PM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Romulus

+Ignatius of Antioch is among the great Fathers. He was not infallible. Carried out fully, his comment would likely mean we’d all be Arians or Iconoclasts. In any event, the people followed a real bishop, +Mark of Ephesus, as the people, ultimately, always will.


26 posted on 10/23/2009 12:05:46 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis
So you're telling us that the precedent has been set for the laity rebelling against Orthodox bishops, when the situation is considered appropriate.

If this is the case, then who actually is in charge of the Orthodox Church? Not the bishops, for sure. You've already assured us that the laity kicked their butts once and would do it again if the situation called for it.

We had this discussion yesterday when I mentioned that the Orthodox attitude to the papacy (at least as expounded by you) bore certain marked similarities to the Protestant one. No, no, you said.

Yet here we find another example a day later. You're telling us that the Orthodox Church is some sort of "bottom up" structure which follows its bishops in general terms but that the court of last resort rests with the faithful.

That's a Protestant model of ecclesiology, chum. Aren't you the guy that's always giving us Western heretics sermons about ecclesiology?

27 posted on 10/23/2009 12:17:29 PM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow; kosta50
"...hat the court of last resort rests with the faithful."

Well, yes and no. All the orders within The Church have their proper role. No decision of the hierarchy, even in a council, even as a matter of dogma, can be considered binding unless it is accepted by the People of God. Even something as simple as an ordination to the deaconate, let alone to the priesthood or hierarchy, must, must receive the AXIOS of the people.

On the other hand, the people can do nothing without the clergy and hierarchy. But the people are the guardians of Orthodoxy.

So, chum, perhaps you should rethink running after us for a reunion. We'd so throw monkey wrenches into your already fragile ecclesiology, especially in 1st world. We'd spend our time telling your people to overthrow their bishops when they got out of line. It would be great fun!

28 posted on 10/23/2009 12:47:31 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: massgopguy

Can we recruit Orthodox by Form 100s yet???


29 posted on 10/23/2009 12:53:26 PM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis
Well, yes and no

Well, yes.

Go through your post #28 again and bold or highlight anything on which you consider a Presbyterian, or an Episcopalian, for instance, could not sign off.

30 posted on 10/23/2009 12:54:31 PM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis

Thanks be to God for the Filioque and papal supremacy. NO MORE COUNCILS. Not now. Not ever. Religious truth is not about democracy.


31 posted on 10/23/2009 12:58:37 PM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis
After the Council of Florence with its ill fated reunion, virtually all the hierarchs were on board. +Mark of Ephesus alone refused to sign it. When the delegation returned to Constantinople,the people scorned their bishops and publicly taunted them as traitors to the Faith.

While Mark of Ephesus was quite learned and knew the knew the theology that was in dispute, this could hardly be said of the mass of the laity. Surely, for the faithful in the street, this revolt against their own bishops was more the result of prejudicial hatred fueled by 500 years schism and mutual recrimination, and not from a deep understanding of the Christian faith. And unless you can say that those opposed to union today could carry on a theological debate at the level that is being discussed by the bishops and theologians, the same would have to be said today.

32 posted on 10/23/2009 1:02:40 PM PDT by Petrosius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow

OK; now, why would you want the likes of us groveling at some hierarch’s feet next to you?


33 posted on 10/23/2009 1:07:51 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow; Kolokotronis
Go through your post #28 again and bold or highlight anything on which you consider a Presbyterian, or an Episcopalian, for instance, could not sign off

You are confusing theology with ecclesiology. The Presbyterians and Episcopalians could never sing off on theology. That's what matters.

The EOC is run the way it was run from the beginning. It was the Latin Church which "evolved" into this pay-pray-and-obey organization. I believe it was +Cyprian who argued for the Eastern ecclesial model and lost. The West simply became too Frankish.

But that's not the Orthodox concern as long as any reunion does not imply Latin ecclesiology. The reunion hinges on the profession of the same faith and the undertsanidng that both Latin and Orthodox traditions express identical cocnepts in different words. So far, no one has been able to show that different woprds mean the same concepts, which is why there is no reunion.

34 posted on 10/23/2009 1:13:42 PM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Petrosius

“While Mark of Ephesus was quite learned and knew the knew the theology that was in dispute, this could hardly be said of the mass of the laity.”

Well, evidence from history indicates otherwise. One of the Fathers, I forget which one, complained how he couldn’t get through a day of his errands without being engaged by the butcher or shoemaker or tailor in a theological discussion on some arcane topic. In fact, I’ll bet that the laity 1000 years ago was better catchized than today as a general proposition.

“And unless you can say that those opposed to union today could carry on a theological debate at the level that is being discussed by the bishops and theologians, the same would have to be said today.”

P, you’ve read much of what has been discussed in the dialogs here or on the Vatican or Patriarchate websites. Do you think it is particularly arcane? The main topic has been the proper exercise of the Petrine office in terms of the 1st millenium of The Church and how it would work in the future. Do you think the level of that discussion is particularly arcane? P, Met. John’s comments on primacy and the synodal system, for example, are the subject of discussion, pro and con, in both the Russian and Greek popular press, maybe elsewhere. This isn’t difficult stuff to understand. What’s difficult is finding a common and acceptable praxis on a go forward basis.


35 posted on 10/23/2009 1:18:43 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis
While the topics themselves might be generally known, I would say an adequate understanding of the nature of the disputes is quite arcane and beyond the education of the average layman. Perhaps the laity were more theologically acute 1000 years ago but how many today could carry on a high level theological discussion? Yes, your typical layman might be able to repeat in a cursory fashion the objections of the Orthodox but how many really understand, or even know, the Catholic positions? No, these protests, before there has even been a joint statement, can only be based on prejudice.
36 posted on 10/23/2009 1:35:07 PM PDT by Petrosius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: kosta50; marshmallow; Kolokotronis
Sorry, but this "people's church" ecclesiology makes no sense. Nicaea-Constantinople confesses a "catholic and apostolic Church" (Καθολικὴν καὶ Ἀποστολικὴν Ἐκκλησίαν). Do we have to have an argument about what the meaning of "is" is?
37 posted on 10/23/2009 1:35:45 PM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Petrosius; Kolokotronis
Surely, for the faithful in the street, this revolt against their own bishops was more the result of prejudicial hatred fueled by 500 years schism and mutual recrimination, and not from a deep understanding of the Christian faith

Well, we could say the same of the Latin clergy. It's not as if they were "above it all" and void of prejudices.

However, the way the Orthodox laity keep the hierarchy in check is by long memory. Since very little changes in the liturgy (and, remember, Orthodoxy is governed not by a magisterium but by lex orandi lex credendi), there are at least three, often four generations of believers in the church at any time raised on the same liturgy.

In other words, young adults, their parents, and their parents' parents, who attended the same liturgy and the same feasts year after year after year.

In fact this is how the Jews kept the oral tradition. The operant word is immutability. Ignoring small changes in decor, vestments and order or psalms, in other words theologically insignificant changes, there are three, and even four generations of believes who remember what the liturgy is supposed to be like.

The moment something changes, because a new "progressive" bishop is onboard, they will confront him and challenge him to show them why is such a change justified and where did it come from. Tradition. That's what kept Judaism and treat's what is keeping Eastern Orthodoxy relatively unchanged and immune from innovations.

Once you have a liturgy that is 1700 years old, it's difficult to introduce something new and justify it as something old, patristic, apostolic, trendy, etc.

In the Catholic Church and Protestant communities, there is no such breaking mechanism. Catholic magisterium speaks of a developing doctrine, based on the "deposit" of faith, which basically amounts to "discovery," which is alien tot he East.

The East believes the Church received the faith in full, once and forever and there is nothing else to discover and adjust, and perfect, and fix. The Church is not of this world, and does not change or conform according to it. But in the West, just the opposite is true.

Catholic rituals have changed along the way, but none so drastically as from the late 1960's onward. How can you possibly have three even four generations of believers knowing the same liturgy? How could they possibly 'notice" that something is wrong? Besides, Catholic magisterium is followed blindly. Catholic masses pay, pray and obey without questioning. When one pope removes high candles from the Sunday Mass, no one says anything.

When the crucifix disappears from the altar no one corrects the bishop. Likewise, when one decides to reintroduce them, the Catholic faithful simply accept it. Nicely "domesticated" laity, I must admit.

Catholic Church is founded on constant, never-ending change. Now there is a new translation of the Missal coming out. The old one is not longer "in vogue" but the Church will never admit it is wrong! Things just get replaced without any admission of error, and silently everyone moves on with the new "standards," at least for a while.

This is so essentially opposite to anything in the East, it is unrecognizable and quite scary to be honest with you.

38 posted on 10/23/2009 1:42:08 PM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis
One of the Fathers, I forget which one, complained how he couldn’t get through a day of his errands without being engaged by the butcher or shoemaker or tailor in a theological discussion on some arcane topic.

It was Gregory of Nyssa, and he was complaining about the ludicrousness of free-lance theologizing amongst the half-educated and confused laity of Constantinople.

39 posted on 10/23/2009 1:46:22 PM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Romulus; Kolokotronis; marshmallow; Petrosius

Ekklesia means gathering of the faithful, not the magisterium. Catholic and apostolic Church simply means followers of correct Chirstian teaching, as passed on by the apostles, everywhere.


40 posted on 10/23/2009 1:47:26 PM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: kosta50
Well, we could say the same of the Latin clergy. It's not as if they were "above it all" and void of prejudices.

True enough, as well as for the Orthodox clergy. Comparative theology is a specialized field. Sadly, on both sides of the divide, there is little true understanding of the beliefs of the other.

However, the way the Orthodox laity keep the hierarchy in check is by long memory. Since very little changes in the liturgy (and, remember, Orthodoxy is governed not by a magisterium but by lex orandi lex credendi), there are at least three, often four generations of believers in the church at any time raised on the same liturgy.

But we were not divided by changes in the liturgy. The complaints that have historically been made by the Orthodox about the Latin liturgy have been made because they never recognized the legitimacy of ancient Latin practices that differed from the Greek. Even taking into account the changes introduced by typical edition of the Novus Ordo in Latin, like the Orthodox, there have been changes but none that changed our theological understanding of the faith expressed in the liturgy. The new translation that you mentioned is an attempted to recover in the vernacular what has always been present in the official Latin version.

41 posted on 10/23/2009 2:00:31 PM PDT by Petrosius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: kosta50; Kolokotronis

No; “apostolic” means a great deal more than what you suggest. It means that the Church is apostolic by character and constitution. The Church is not a DIY project; she SENDS her authorized messengers to proclaim the good news and the sanctify the world through the sacraments. The Church isn’t a polling service asking what the people think they believe.

I can’t believe we’re even discussing this.


42 posted on 10/23/2009 2:29:48 PM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Romulus; Kolokotronis

One thing is clear from the interview with Bp. Tikhon I posted in #20: in his particular case it is not a bishop driving the flock toward unity, but rather the flock driving bishop Tikhon. Note his comments on “sobornost” as related to lay participation, and the concluding remark about fight for unity being his pastoral practical duty.


43 posted on 10/23/2009 3:45:53 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Romulus; kosta50

“I can’t believe we’re even discussing this.”

With all due respect, R, if you understood Orthodoxy you’d understand why we are discussing this.

BTW, the world is not sanctified through the sacraments. That’s the Latin notion of created grace which was unknown in the first 1000 years of The Church and which Orthodoxy formally rejected in the 14th century after Rome began preaching it as part of the whole indulgences/treasury of merit notion.


44 posted on 10/23/2009 3:49:33 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Petrosius; kosta50; annalex

“Yes, your typical layman might be able to repeat in a cursory fashion the objections of the Orthodox but how many really understand, or even know, the Catholic positions?”

But the objections are based on the Catholic positions of today. We see them trumpeted here regularly, even today, P by well know Latin posters. Its a matter of submission to the hierarchy and ultimately to the Pope. Orthodox Christians don’t buy that and never did. What happens even here on FR with “conservative” Catholics? Accusations that our ancient ecclesiology, the ecclesiology of the One Church not the feudalistic Frankish ecclesiology of Rome, is Protestant! I suggest that Orthodox Christians understand full well Latin ecclesiology and what at least “conservative” Latins want for us in any reunion.


45 posted on 10/23/2009 3:55:21 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Romulus; kosta50

“Sorry, but this “people’s church” ecclesiology makes no sense.”

No, it doesn’t. That’s not Orthodoxy. Nor is Orthodox ecclesiology a feudalistic creation of the Franks.


46 posted on 10/23/2009 3:56:40 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis

All Benedict has to do is assume his historical role of “First among Equals” and it will all come together.

Oh, but for that little contingency, eh?


47 posted on 10/23/2009 4:10:33 PM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib; kosta50

“All Benedict has to do is assume his historical role of “First among Equals” and it will all come together.

Oh, but for that little contingency, eh?”

Maybe we should all start holding our collective breath. I’m sure it will happen within the next few weeks...! /s


48 posted on 10/23/2009 4:12:29 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis

49 posted on 10/23/2009 4:15:49 PM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib

Troparion (Tone 4)

By your profession of faith, O all-praised Mark
The Church has found you to be a zealot for truth.
You fought for the teaching of the Fathers;
You cast down the darkness of boastful pride.
Intercede with Christ God to grant forgiveness to those who honor you!

Kontakion (Tone 3)

Clothed with invincible armor, O blessed one,
You cast down rebellious pride,
You served as the instrument of the Comforter,
And shone forth as the champion of Orthodoxy.
Therefore we cry to you: “Rejoice, Mark, the boast of the Orthodox!”


50 posted on 10/23/2009 4:20:18 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-63 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson