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Does the Church teach two Gospels?
http://www.torahtimes.org/gospel101.html ^ | 10/25/2009 | Daniel Gregg

Posted on 10/25/2009 1:24:33 PM PDT by Daniel Gregg

 

Does the Church teach two Gospels?  Daniel Gregg

Also posted at Torahtimes.org

          When the preacher says Christ died for our sin, what does it make you think?  Does it make you think that he paid the penalty for sin so that the repentant might be forgiven?   Or does it make you think one only needs to believe to be perfectly righteous in God's sight, and then one is saved on the basis of God's vision of righteousness?

     Believe it or not, the Church teaches two gospels.  One is a gospel of repentance and pardon, by which a man may be saved.  The other is a gospel of acquittal and divine blindness to sin, which if swallowed whole leads to Hell.   The good news of the pardon is Messiah's payment of the penalty, which is valid for those who repent.  The false gospel is a gospel of legal philosophy that rejects the necessity of repentance at its very foundation.

      Many Christians have taken the true gospel to heart.  Many more, however, have taken the false gospel to heart.  And most of those believing the true gospel are ignorant of the false Quisling Gospel (Quisling was a traitor and Nazi sympathizer) that has taken their Christian brothers to the Spiritual Death Camps.

     What is an acquittal?  An acquittal is when a judge finds the accused innocent of all crimes.  The case of the defendant is dismissed for lack of incriminating evidence, and the accused is free to go.  A pardon happens when the accused is found guilty, admits their guilt, and then the judge finds a merciful reason to let them go without punishment.  It is expected that the pardoned will no longer commit the crimes of their former life.

      If a judge acquits a guilty person, we call it a miscarriage of justice, or if the judge knows he is acquitting the guilty, a travesty of justice.   If a judge pardons someone who repents, we say the judge is merciful and wise.   If the judge pardons someone who he knows will keep committing crimes and has no intention to repent then we call it an abuse of leniency.

      What I am saying is that the Church has suffered a spiritual holocaust or genocide ten times greater than that of the Nazi murder of the Jews.   The gospel of acquittal has led most to believe that they have a righteous status in God's eyes, and that the meaning of the good news has to do with God dismissing his case against them on the discovery of righteousness in them or in their account.  All they have to do is "believe" the message.   When they understand the gospel this way, then they don't see the need for repentance.  Therefore they have no true conversion.

     It does not matter whether one is Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Messianic, Baptist, Seventh Day Adventist, Seventh Day Baptist, or any other denomination.  The same malady has infected them all.  More Christians are going to perish in the lake of fire because they believed the false gospel which did not lead them to repentance than there are Jews who perished in the Holocaust.

     So I will throw out a few barbs for discussion to illustrate the false gospel vs. the real one.  It is said the cross teaches "justification by faith" which means being made righteous in God's sight or declared righteous.   It doesn't really matter here whether one subscribes to the Catholic facet of the false gospel or the Lutheran/Calvinist nuance.   Either way it teaches that "justified by faith" means becoming righteous in God's sight.   Sounds like the magic wand of acquittal doesn't it?  Well it is.  God has no reason to consider anyone perfectly righteous when they are not actually perfectly righteous unless the reason for being of the doctrine is to issue an acquittal and declare the "believer" innocent!

      It is time to stop this murder by legal lies that don't make any sense.   In the Hellenistic/Koine Greek of Paul's day, the word "justified" from the Greek δικαιοω simply meant "justiced", in the sense of having justice done, or doing justice for someone, or pleading the case of justice.  Alister McGrath admits this in Iustitia Dei.  We also find the proper definition in Thayer at the end of the entry, and in BDAG (def. #1, though obscured).   It is used in the sense of a penalty or punishment.   Though a rarely used English word, the sense is "justiced".   They hanged the crook and he was justiced.   So then when Paul uses the word δικαιοω, he merely means that we are "justiced" in Messiah, i.e. he paid the penalty in our place.   Therefore, it has nothing to do with the nonsense of "declared righteous" as the legal outcome of forgiveness of sins.   We still have to repent in order to BE RIGHTEOUS, and in fact repentance is expected.

     Second point, in Paul's conception "believe" meant "faithfulness/commitment".  See the afore mentioned BDAG Lexicon (c. 2000, 3rd edition) on πιστις and πιστευω, def. #1 and #2 respectively.  So the phrase "justified by faith" means "justiced by faithfulness" (cf. Rom. 5:1).   Now before you get all het up and think I'm saying we are justiced by our faithfulness, listen a minute.  Paul did not mean our faithfulness.  He meant Messiah's faithfulness.   We are "justiced by [Messiah's] faithfulness" to do the work of paying the penalty on the cross.  This concept is no longer foreign to scholars as texts like Rom. 3:22 and Gal 2:16 have already been recognized as referring to the "faithfulness of Jesus Christ" and not to "faith in Jesus" Christ.  So you see, Paul already defined it as Messiah's faithfulness by which we are justiced.   How do you receive this?  Make a commitment to be faithful to him, and you will be justiced in Messiah.

      If you understand this, then you will know why Christianity is such a mess and is no longer the salt of the earth.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: faithfulness; gospel; justiced; messiah; yeshua
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O.k. let's see the fireworks fly.
1 posted on 10/25/2009 1:24:34 PM PDT by Daniel Gregg
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To: Daniel Gregg

Easy Question: Jesus said Repent and believe the Gospel Mark 1:15. Jesus said it was singular I will stick with him.


2 posted on 10/25/2009 1:39:07 PM PDT by vicar7
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To: Daniel Gregg
Let me just quote one very important verse that can't possibly be taken in more ways than one. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". Not believe and give,not believe and be good and do deeds, not go door to door and bug people, but simply believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Forget sin, every sin that has ever been committed or will ever be committed was forgiven at the cross. (when He died for the sins of the world)

The question will not be "how much sin did you commit", "how much good did you do", but "what did you do with my Son".

3 posted on 10/25/2009 1:43:10 PM PDT by fish hawk (Lord, help us to attain knowledge and the wisdom to apply it toward your ultimate will.)
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To: Daniel Gregg
God has no reason to consider anyone perfectly righteous when they are not actually perfectly righteous unless the reason for being of the doctrine is to issue an acquittal and declare the "believer" innocent!

Ping for later

4 posted on 10/25/2009 1:47:16 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him" - Job 13:15)
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To: vicar7
Easy Question: Jesus said Repent and believe the Gospel Mark 1:15. Jesus said it was singular I will stick with him.

I gather by this that you think repentance is a one time thing? The Greek μετανοειτε in Mark 1:15 is in the present tense. This Greek tense is use in both the senses of the English simple present and present progressive. So I would render it a imperative present progressive: Be repenting

Unless I am mistaken then, clearly with the belief that you need repent only once you believe that God has a righteous vision of you and you need do nothing further to be righteous.

5 posted on 10/25/2009 1:53:11 PM PDT by Daniel Gregg (www.torahtimes.org)
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To: Daniel Gregg

Your right there are two gospels recorded in the Bible (actually more than two). Your wrong about everything else you wrote beyond there are two gospels.


6 posted on 10/25/2009 2:08:18 PM PDT by PoloSec (2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, ri)
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To: All; Godzilla

“I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.”

Apostle Paul to the Romans


7 posted on 10/25/2009 2:09:03 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: All

Proverbs 6:16-19 (New International Version)

16 There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:

17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,

18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,

19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.


8 posted on 10/25/2009 2:11:15 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: fish hawk
Not believe and give,not believe and be good and do deeds, not go door to door and bug people, but simply believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Forget sin, every sin that has ever been committed or will ever be committed was forgiven at the cross.

You state the 'believe only' tradition well. I alluded to the fact in the article that πιστευω does not mean "believe" in the NT. It means "to commit" and is so translated by the KJV 7x. For example:

KJV John 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

So a proper English translation of the text you quoted is, "Commit to the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved"

This of course imlies more than intellectual assent. It implies total loyalty and support to Christ. As such πιστευω implies repentance.

The question will not be "how much sin did you commit", "how much good did you do", but "what did you do with my Son".

The question is likely to be a bit more specific than that. It will be, "Why did you turn the pardon available in My Son into a legal Acquittal"

9 posted on 10/25/2009 2:11:54 PM PDT by Daniel Gregg (www.torahtimes.org)
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To: Daniel Gregg

I often wonder how modern Christianity would be different if Paul was removed. To me, it seems the majority of Churches have given Paul an equal if not higher place than Christ.


10 posted on 10/25/2009 2:13:30 PM PDT by TruthBeforeAll (To liberals if something is a complete and utter disaster, it's because there's not enough of it.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
“I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.” Apostle Paul to the Romans

Boomerang!

11 posted on 10/25/2009 2:19:22 PM PDT by Daniel Gregg (www.torahtimes.org)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

KJV Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.


12 posted on 10/25/2009 2:20:57 PM PDT by Daniel Gregg (www.torahtimes.org)
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To: Daniel Gregg

KJV Proverbs 17:15 “He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.”

Daniel,
I ain’t calling you just or wicked - just observing
your threads seem to focus on things that foster
dissension among br’ers.
ampu


13 posted on 10/25/2009 2:36:45 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Daniel Gregg
< rhetorical_question>Where've we heard this before?< /rhetorical_question>
We don't believe in TULIP. Calvinism is a cult. We can get along with them, but through bitter experience have found that they WILL not get along with us.

Got that right.

Good luck with that Law keeping stuff. Tell us how it works out, why doncha?

14 posted on 10/25/2009 2:50:00 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("What is your only comfort, in life and death?" "That I an not my own, but belong, body and soul...")
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To: Daniel Gregg
“commit” or “believe” , matters not upon which I stated. Pick your own semantics. I stated a Biblical truth. Both make sense to me and does not change a thing.
15 posted on 10/25/2009 3:10:53 PM PDT by fish hawk (Lord, help us to attain knowledge and the wisdom to apply it toward your ultimate will.)
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To: Daniel Gregg
I resent your post #1. As a good Christian, which I suspect you are by your thread, by what you state in post one looks as though you are throwing this out to see how much argument you can stir up. (or “fireworks” as you call it)
16 posted on 10/25/2009 3:14:57 PM PDT by fish hawk (Lord, help us to attain knowledge and the wisdom to apply it toward your ultimate will.)
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To: fish hawk

“by what you state in post one looks as though you are throwing this out to see how much argument you can stir up. (or “fireworks” as you call it)”

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2370650/posts?page=13#13


17 posted on 10/25/2009 3:34:35 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Daniel Gregg

Tis a one time thing: turning going to other way. change of heart or mind that leads to change of direction. Believe means trust in rely on. Gospel is Jesus came as God in the flesh to die for sin and rose again that we might have life in him.


18 posted on 10/25/2009 4:01:19 PM PDT by vicar7
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To: Daniel Gregg; Alex Murphy; aMorePerfectUnion; Lee N. Field

Interesting. Devoid of substance, but interesting to see those outside the Church of Christ will go to tear her down.

“Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.” (Heb. 13:9)


19 posted on 10/25/2009 4:17:21 PM PDT by topcat54 ("Don't whine to me. It's all Darby's fault.")
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To: Daniel Gregg

Tense: Present
Voice: Active
Mood: Imperative

1) to change one’s mind, i.e. to repent

2) to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one’s past sins

“Repentance (metanoia, ‘change of mind’) involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness.” (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)


20 posted on 10/25/2009 5:18:32 PM PDT by boatbums (Pro-woman, pro-child, pro-life!)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
KJV Proverbs 17:15 “He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.”

I quoted this text because it supports the point in the opening article that salvation is not a matter of acquittal. To justify the sinner amounts to acquittal. Here is another text that makes virtually the same point

KJV Exodus 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

I'm leaving a few loose ends so that the opposition will feel sucessful for a while.

21 posted on 10/25/2009 5:19:51 PM PDT by Daniel Gregg (www.torahtimes.org)
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To: Daniel Gregg
O.k. let's see the fireworks fly.

So was that thief hanging beside Christ saved?

22 posted on 10/25/2009 5:35:34 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Daniel Gregg

Who is it that performs the act of saving? Is it Christ, or is it the sinner. It is very, very simple. The sinner cannot save - but Christ can and does!


23 posted on 10/25/2009 5:41:40 PM PDT by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
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To: Just mythoughts
So was that thief hanging beside Christ saved?

Which one? There were two and granted the bad one put the Lord to the test, not the best thing to do break a commandment as your last act on earth. But even for the bad thief isn't being crucified repentance enough for his sins? Does he really burn in hell for eternity because he did not fully understand the Gospel and Christ's standing as Messiah?

And yes the good thief is saved Christ says "this very day you shall walk with me in paradise."

24 posted on 10/25/2009 5:46:56 PM PDT by stig
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To: Daniel Gregg; Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; blue-duncan; HarleyD; Alex Murphy; ...
Make a commitment to be faithful to him, and you will be justiced in Messiah.

Ah, judaizing works-righteousness is still alive somewhere in the world.

May this false teaching be cursed by the triune God.

25 posted on 10/25/2009 5:58:14 PM PDT by topcat54 ("Don't whine to me. It's all Darby's fault.")
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To: stig
Which one? There were two and granted the bad one put the Lord to the test, not the best thing to do break a commandment as your last act on earth. But even for the bad thief isn't being crucified repentance enough for his sins? Does he really burn in hell for eternity because he did not fully understand the Gospel and Christ's standing as Messiah? And yes the good thief is saved Christ says "this very day you shall walk with me in paradise."

The thief I was referring to was the one who 'believed'.

I cannot find anyplace that anyone burns in hell for eternity. To burn in hell is to be disposed of not ever to be remembered that point forward. Now personally speaking I do not get off on the notion that the Heavenly Father is a torturer through eternity.

Further it is not the physical flesh body that ends up in the 'lake of fire' but that soul/spirit. And it is Written that the soul/spirit that the Maker sent returns back to Him when this flesh body returns to dust. Some return as believers and the rest are in heaven in their spirit body waiting Christ's own personal boot camp to begin. And if they still reject Christ at the end of boot camp they choose to be destroyed, and then the trouble makers will be no more.

Personally I believe there is going to be some shock and awe when some return to heaven and they find out who else is there.

26 posted on 10/25/2009 6:07:47 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Lee N. Field
Good luck with that Law keeping stuff. Tell us how it works out, why doncha?

Inconceivable Luck is truly required for an acquittal. What a pity you think you have one and that it leads you to despise the Law of the Holy One. What a pain that you aim for one when simple confession of guilt and pardon will do.

KJV Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

27 posted on 10/25/2009 7:56:12 PM PDT by Daniel Gregg (www.torahtimes.org)
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To: TruthBeforeAll
If Paul did not preach, the gospel would still be obscured to a small sect of Jews called the Nazarenes. Surley corruption has dulled the words of Paul to their ears, but when the kingdom comes here, it will be clear that Jesus and Paul adhere.

KJV Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

It was necessary not to pull up the weeds of the false gospel so soon that the wheat might be pulled up with it, but now the kindgom comes, and the harvest is due, and so all will be made plain

28 posted on 10/25/2009 8:08:57 PM PDT by Daniel Gregg (www.torahtimes.org)
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To: fish hawk
I resent your post #1. As a good Christian, which I suspect you are by your thread, by what you state in post one looks as though you are throwing this out to see how much argument you can stir up. (or “fireworks” as you call it)

I would that every church in the world were arguing about it by noon tomorrow. Then perhaps some of them would repent and be saved.

It is helpful to bait the fishhook.

29 posted on 10/25/2009 8:13:49 PM PDT by Daniel Gregg (www.torahtimes.org)
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To: vicar7
You can redefine repentance to mean merely a change of mind about beliefs, but that is not how the Scriptures define it. Repentance is not a change of mind to believe certain doctrines one did not believe before. Repentance is a sincere change of mind about sin, and being of a sincere nature logically leads to abandonment of sinful life whereever it is discovered in one's lifestyle.

The paramount text for what 'believe' means is Genesis 15:6, where the Hebrew word is האמין. This word means to "support". Literally, "Abraham made his support with YHWH". So you see it means more than just to support facts, or make someone your support. It also means to support the someone. Similarly, the English word "commit" which is in the Lexicons and is used in the KJV for πιστευω means to commit one's support to a person as well as to be committed to that persons care. Now of course one will believe what God says if one is committed to him, but belief is not even half the story.

30 posted on 10/25/2009 8:37:48 PM PDT by Daniel Gregg (www.torahtimes.org)
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To: topcat54

The false Church is simply the modern version of the ancient pharisees, self-righteous in thinking that their standing with God is based on him acquitting them of sin.


31 posted on 10/25/2009 8:40:02 PM PDT by Daniel Gregg (www.torahtimes.org)
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To: boatbums
I don't see a problem with your definition of repentance:

2) to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one’s past sins

Clearly that means one will turn away from sin, and keep turning way from sin that comes up in life

32 posted on 10/25/2009 8:43:37 PM PDT by Daniel Gregg (www.torahtimes.org)
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To: Just mythoughts
So was that thief hanging beside Christ saved?

Why do you doubt it?

33 posted on 10/25/2009 8:45:48 PM PDT by Daniel Gregg (www.torahtimes.org)
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To: Daniel Gregg

Galatians Chapter 1:

6: I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9: As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10: For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11: But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12: For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


34 posted on 10/25/2009 8:47:50 PM PDT by LucyJo
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To: Daniel Gregg
So was that thief hanging beside Christ saved? Why do you doubt it?

YOU are no mind reader. There is NO doubt hinted, suggested or intimated in asking you a question.

35 posted on 10/25/2009 8:54:34 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Daniel Gregg
The false Church ...

Heretics and apostates always like such names.

Fact is that judaizing works-righteousness is the religion of the pharisees, my FRiend. It was thoroughly refuted and anathematized by Paul and the ancient Church.

36 posted on 10/25/2009 9:00:08 PM PDT by topcat54 ("Don't whine to me. It's all Darby's fault.")
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To: colorcountry
Who is it that performs the act of saving? Is it Christ, or is it the sinner. It is very, very simple. The sinner cannot save - but Christ can and does!

In every context, that should be preceeded by the question, "Saved from what?". If from the penalty of sin, I will agree with you. If from sinfulness, God requires human cooperation this side of the last day. If one is willing to cooperate with God in the later, then the former is done for you without penances or works to pay the debt.

37 posted on 10/25/2009 9:00:30 PM PDT by Daniel Gregg (www.torahtimes.org)
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To: LucyJo
LucyJo, did you know that a major opinion of observant Jews is that they are saved just by being Jewish? It doesn't matter how good or bad they are. They think they are saved by being Jewish. So Paul's adversaries were teaching that to be saved one had to become Jewish by being circumcised. This is really no different than the Catholic teaching that baptism removes the guilt of original sin and gives one a perfected status with God, mistakenly called "forgiveness".

So then that is the false gospel that Paul was talking about. With the true gospel we have a pardon by the death of Messiah, and not a declaration of innocence.

38 posted on 10/25/2009 9:16:47 PM PDT by Daniel Gregg (www.torahtimes.org)
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To: Daniel Gregg

the Greek word has meta as its first syllable which means change. You can argue all you wish but that does not change (meta0 anything. When you are talking about what Jesus said in the NT you must use koine Greek. There is nowhere in the NT that says Repent of your sins it is not there. It is quite true I did not define what the word Repent is but Jesus did. So allow that change of heart and mind that leads to a change of direction so you can trust in rely on Jesus because he is the only way.


39 posted on 10/25/2009 9:21:55 PM PDT by vicar7
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To: Daniel Gregg
Clearly that means one will turn away from sin, and keep turning way from sin that comes up in life

Clearly, if one reads the book of Galations, the false, and accursed Gospel is the one that ADDS man's works, efforts or merits to the GIFT of salvation by grace through faith.

Gal 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

40 posted on 10/25/2009 9:22:12 PM PDT by boatbums (Pro-woman, pro-child, pro-life!)
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To: Daniel Gregg; topcat54; Lee N. Field
What is an acquittal? An acquittal is when a judge finds the accused innocent of all crimes. The case of the defendant is dismissed for lack of incriminating evidence, and the accused is free to go. A pardon happens when the accused is found guilty, admits their guilt, and then the judge finds a merciful reason to let them go without punishment. It is expected that the pardoned will no longer commit the crimes of their former life.

If a judge acquits a guilty person, we call it a miscarriage of justice, or if the judge knows he is acquitting the guilty, a travesty of justice. If a judge pardons someone who repents, we say the judge is merciful and wise. If the judge pardons someone who he knows will keep committing crimes and has no intention to repent then we call it an abuse of leniency.

If you are trying to describe the American justice system, then almost all of this is completely wrong. For example, acquittals do not mean a person is innocent (ask OJ), Judges do not issue pardons, executives do such as governors or the President. In addition, there is no requirement for repentance for a pardon to be issued, and there is no necessary expectation for not committing the same crime in the future (give Clinton truth serum and ask him about Mark Rich, and notice that no one criticized Clinton over this aspect of that pardon). There are more examples, but you get the idea.

In any event, even with your use of "acquittal" you are forgetting the fact that when an acquittal is rendered then NO ONE pays any price. The person, guilty or not in fact, simply goes free. No one is punished. Therefore, this would not seem to fit any comparison you are trying to make to some false gospel.

41 posted on 10/26/2009 12:21:21 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Daniel Gregg; All

KJV Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners TO REPENTANCE.

This verse in the modern versions leaves off the last two words (”to repentance”). Maybe this is why so many think they can remain sinners wallowing in their sins and still have salvation. They completely misunderstand the true Gospel and think they can merely “believe” and continue in a lifestyle of breaking God’s commandments, which He gave “for our good always” (Deut. 6;24).

The easy-believism expressed on this thread makes your case, Dan, that the false gospel is alive and well in our times. Thank you for trying to reach the lost who fill the pews of the churches.


42 posted on 10/26/2009 4:27:52 AM PDT by Renah
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To: Daniel Gregg

Well, I guess you are sinless then, right?

God changes the heart to turn us to him, and in turning we choose a direction away from sin even though we are still fallen and sinful. If that doesn’t make sense to man, then his heart has not turned to God.

Do you still have the same desire to sin that you had before Christ saved you? I do not.


43 posted on 10/26/2009 4:28:53 AM PDT by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
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To: vicar7

>>There is nowhere in the NT that says Repent of your sins it is not there.<<

Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luk 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The call to repentance from sin may not be in your modern version (NIV, etc.) but it is in the KJV and the Greek manuscripts that back it (TR).


44 posted on 10/26/2009 5:09:16 AM PDT by Renah
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To: Daniel Gregg
If from sinfulness, God requires human cooperation this side of the last day.

So, "dead" in "When you were dead in your trespasses and sins" means "only mostly dead"?


45 posted on 10/26/2009 5:34:59 AM PDT by Lee N. Field ("I'm so thankful for the active obedience of Christ. No hope without it." -- J. Gresham Machen)
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To: Lee N. Field
God requires human cooperation this side of the last day

KJV Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

KJV 1 Timothy 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Mr. Field, quoting a text without a context is a pretext:

KJV Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Clearly unbelievers are not literaly dead. But why should we think that Calvin or Augustine are right about the meaning of dead? "Dead" merely means as good as dead because they were under the death sentence due to transgression. So then, God merely needs to remove the blinders to enable them to choose life. Then the choice is theirs.

What Augustine and Calvin teach on the total depravity of unregenerate man is merely a thinly disguised Manichean Gnosticism crept into the Church.

46 posted on 10/26/2009 6:21:06 AM PDT by Daniel Gregg (www.torahtimes.org)
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To: colorcountry
Well, I guess you are sinless then, right?

I don't know how you deduce sinless out of the need for repentance. Not all sin is transgression. Not all sinfulness is rebellion.

KJV Numbers 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. 30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

God changes the heart to turn us to him, ....

God will not do that if the person is unwilling to cooperate:

KJV Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

KJV Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

47 posted on 10/26/2009 6:39:27 AM PDT by Daniel Gregg (www.torahtimes.org)
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To: Renah

I noticed that even in Luke 5:32 the the non TR has “to repentance”


48 posted on 10/26/2009 6:45:17 AM PDT by Daniel Gregg (www.torahtimes.org)
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To: Forest Keeper
Agreed, the U.S. justice system does not match the biblical one in many respects.

In the biblical justice system, the Judge is the one who grants the pardons.

KJV Numbers 14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

In the biblical justice system acquittals are only supposed to be issued to the innocent:

KJV Deuteronomy 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

KJV Exodus 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

In any event, even with your use of "acquittal" you are forgetting the fact that when an acquittal is rendered then NO ONE pays any price

No, I have not forgotten that.  That's why the the Church teaches two gospels, one false, and one true.  You cannot combine acquittal with the actual payment of the penalty, because you are right, that with an acquittal there is no penalty to be paid!

With the doctrine of "imputed righteousness" or "active obedience" the discovery process is corrupted and changed into a lie.   The "believer" is not found a sinner.  Somehow Justice is blinded.  Logically this leads to no need for a penalty, because the judge is going to find no guilt.  Thus this concept conflicts with the true gospel.

With the true gospel the sinner is found guilty, and in eternity, it will always be a truism that so and so saved person was guilty of sin in the present age.   The difference is that that person repented and Christ paid the penalty for him so he could be pardoned.   But that doesn't change the legal finding of the saved persons guilt.

So the Church teaches two gospels, somewhat mixed up I agree.  The question is which one are you going to believe.

 

49 posted on 10/26/2009 7:12:55 AM PDT by Daniel Gregg (www.torahtimes.org)
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To: Daniel Gregg
We don't believe in TULIP. Calvinism is a cult. We can get along with them, but through bitter experience have found that they WILL not get along with us.

Got that right.

"Bitter experience" == getting kicked out after refusing to repent?

"It does not matter whether one is Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Messianic, Baptist, Seventh Day Adventist, Seventh Day Baptist, or any other denomination. The same malady has infected them all."

At what point, according to your sect, did the church go off the rails?

50 posted on 10/26/2009 7:21:57 AM PDT by Lee N. Field ("I'm so thankful for the active obedience of Christ. No hope without it." -- J. Gresham Machen)
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