God and the particles of doom

Get Religion ^ | October 24, 2009

[delacoert]

As we all know, as as numerous stacks of research have shown, only really stupid, illogical, fact-challenged people believe that God played some meaningful role in the creation of heaven and earth. Right?

I mean, facts are facts and journalism is all about the facts.

Still, I am happy to report that the New York Times ran an essay the other day that opened the currents of science just a bit and showed us the kind of things that linear, logical scientists think about when things go bump in the dark, or when they go bump in the light. This is especially true when things go a bit screwy inside one of the biggest, strangest, most expensive pieces of scientific machinery on this planet (or any other, as far as we know).

I am talking about the Large Hadron Collider over there near Geneva, that $9 billion-plus racetrack for protons buried deep under the border between France and Switzerland.

Strangely enough, I had a chance to visit that scientific shrine a few months ago (work linked to that “Angels & Demons” movie) and I was struck by the many, many examples of vaguely religious language that were posted all over the place. As several of the top researchers said, the more information they gather, the more they realize how much they don’t know. The mysteries keep getting bigger and bigger as they keep hunting for that infamous “God particle” that journalists love to write about.

So what’s the news these days? Well, the collider is broken — again — and inquiring minds want to know what’s up. So here is the top of Dennis Overbye’s essay, “The Collider, the Particle and a Theory About Fate.”

More than a year after an explosion of sparks, soot and frigid helium shut it down, the world’s biggest and most expensive physics experiment, known as the Large Hadron Collider, is poised to start up again. In December, if all goes well, protons will start smashing together in an underground racetrack outside Geneva in a search for forces and particles that reigned during the first trillionth of a second of the Big Bang.

Then it will be time to test one of the most bizarre and revolutionary theories in science. I’m not talking about extra dimensions of space-time, dark matter or even black holes that eat the Earth. No, I’m talking about the notion that the troubled collider is being sabotaged by its own future. A pair of otherwise distinguished physicists have suggested that the hypothesized Higgs boson, which physicists hope to produce with the collider, might be so abhorrent to nature that its creation would ripple backward through time and stop the collider before it could make one, like a time traveler who goes back in time to kill his grandfather.

That would be Holger Bech Nielsen, of Copenhagen’s Niels Bohr Institute, and Masao Ninomiya of Japan’s Yukawa Institute for Theoretical Physics.

And what’s the religion angle? Aliens? Angels? Time travelers?

No, think bigger.

“It must be our prediction that all Higgs producing machines shall have bad luck,” Dr. Nielsen said in an e-mail message. In an unpublished essay, Dr. Nielson said of the theory, “Well, one could even almost say that we have a model for God.” It is their guess, he went on, “that He rather hates Higgs particles, and attempts to avoid them.” This malign influence from the future, they argue, could explain why the United States Superconducting Supercollider, also designed to find the Higgs, was canceled in 1993 after billions of dollars had already been spent, an event so unlikely that Dr. Nielsen calls it an “anti-miracle.”

Gosh, I thought fundamentalist Christians who hated science and big government, or something like that, shot that one down.

Anyway, the essay takes some interesting twists and turns, because scientists often have to meditate on the disturbing fact that strange theories turn out to be true.

But here is the quote that really haunted me. You think there’s a ghost in here?

“For those of us who believe in physics,” Einstein once wrote to a friend, “this separation between past, present and future is only an illusion.”

Belief? Well, people gotta believe in something when asking questions about creation and eternity.

[delacoert]

Please notice this is a Religion Forum post.

Also, be advised, I have manifold ulterior motives for posting this. Just one of them is to notice the Eistien quote and to suggest a substitution:

“For those of us who believe in physics God this separation between past, present and future is only an illusion.”

Go figure.

[delacoert]

My html is okay, but my spelling sucks.

[Psycho_Bunny]

Anyone wishing to have their blog taken seriously should never say “Gosh...”

[LeGrande]

Please notice this is a Religion Forum post.

How is this a Religious post? Why are you afraid to make it a regular post?

[Gordon Greene]

Golly-gee... I thought “gosh” was a fine word to use on a blog.

Guess I’ll have to think about it. Okey-dokey. I thought about it.

Still think “gosh” is A-OK.

[delacoert]

Why are you afraid to make it a regular post?

Fear of Mormons maybe? Nah.

[LeGrande]

Fear of Mormons maybe? Nah.

Atheists like me maybe?

[delacoert]

Anyone wishing to have their blog taken seriously should never say “Gosh...”

A corollary being, really physicists don't need to believe in "Gosh".

[delacoert]

Atheists like me maybe?

Yes, God knows that atheists don't believe in Religion Forums. Or is that Fora?

[Gordon Greene]

(fear of) “Atheists like me maybe?”

Atheists tend to consider themselves of the highest import... reckon when you believe there is no god, you must fill in the blank.

I ain’t skeered o’ no atheist.

[Gordon Greene]

“...physicists don’t need to believe in “Gosh”.”

That is funny...

[delacoert]

I had never heard that quote from Einstien before,

“For those of us who believe in physics, this separation between past, present and future is only an illusion.”

But more and more lately I have found myself trying to have the parallel dicussion with a couple of believers.

God is outside these four dimensions (outside the ten I can marginally understand).

[dr_lew]

“For those of us who believe in physics,” Einstein once wrote to a friend, “this separation between past, present and future is only an illusion.”

Context alert. He was an old man, a few years from death himself, and was remarking on the death of a friend ( I forget who. ) As I recall the quote ... "This death is meaningless. To us true believing physicists the distinction between past, present and future is only an illusion, even if a persistent one."

However this may be an expression of mourning, it is certainly made with humor. Please note that physics in fact does not provide for a unique present moment.

[delacoert]

However this may be an expression of mourning, it is certainly made with humor.

Neither mourning nor humor tend to make his statement less poignant (to me at least).

physics in fact does not provide for a unique present moment

I'm not sure that relevant.

[delacoert]

Context alert. He was an old man, a few years from death himself, and was remarking on the death of a friend

Rethinking your comment. Private correspondence between friends should be afforded a zone apart from close scrutiny, as apposed to the public nature of one's life work.

As some small defense, Earnestine is a historical figure whose writings, even private, come to the fore and get inspected.

I think that his musings are significant, and I only compare them to my own musings.

I am not developing theories based on the man's musings, nor am I criticizing him - far from it.

Respectfully,
  de la C

[delacoert]

Thank you so much for correcting the language of the quote,

"This death is meaningless. To us true believing physicists the distinction between past, present and future is only an illusion, even if a persistent one."

It is MUCH more meaningful and beautiful in that form.

Please forgive my slowness to absorb it.

I hope you will write to me some more.

Thank you.

[Gordon Greene]

I have to assume that just from what we know of Him. Time is something man made up to mark our existence based solely upon the rotation of the earth around the sun. Dimensionally speaking, Christ Himself, even while He walked on earth as a man operated outside of our dimensional limitations.

It’s hard to see God as being contained within simple human confines.

[delacoert]

Christ Himself, even while He walked on earth as a man operated outside of our dimensional limitations.

It’s hard to see God as being contained within simple human confines.,

Or within the theorized multiverse. I say that as a Christian believer coming to terms within the edges of the best assessments of the realm of existence.

[dr_lew]

Thanks for your appreciation.

That was my memory, which seems to be pretty close. I found the original German version at the Max Planck Gymnasium site:

Nach Bessos Tod, wenige Monate, bevor er selber diese Erde verlassen sollte, schreibt Einstein an Bessos Angehörige: »Nun ist er mir auch mit dem Abschied von dieser sonderbaren Welt ein wenig vorangegangen. Dies bedeutet nichts. Für uns gläubige Physiker hat die Scheidung zwischen Vergangenheit, Gegenwart und Zukunft nur die Bedeutung einer wenn auch hartnäckigen Illusion« (A. Einstein, M. Besso, 1972 S. 499 f u. S. 538).

My translation:

After Besso's death, a few months ( not years! ) before he himself would leave this earth, Einstein wrote to Besso's family: "Now he has taken his departure from this strange world a little ahead of me. This means nothing. For us believing physicists the difference between past, present, and future only has meaning as an illusion, even if a persistent one."

The literal word order is, "For us believing physicists has the difference between past, present, and future only the meaning of an if also persistent illusion." ... Tres Deutsch.

[Judith Anne]

Thanks so very much. This means more than I can say.

[LeGrande]

Atheists tend to consider themselves of the highest import... reckon when you believe there is no god, you must fill in the blank.

Interesting thought, but if something doesn't exist it doesn't exist.

[Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus]

Science would be easier to take seriously, if so many scientists didn’t have craniorectal inversions.

[Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus]

I ain’t skeered o’ no atheist.

Why should you be? The militant atheists I've met, almost to a man, generally have bigger mouths than IQs.

[Gordon Greene]

“Interesting thought, but if something doesn’t exist it doesn’t exist.”

Like evolution? Or maybe your postulations over whether there is or is not a God? You prove to me that God does not exist by what we see and I will be glad to point out a million reasons why He must.

My point about atheists is that you must become your own god in the absence of something more tangible. For instance the quote above... your decision on God’s existence or non-existence is the answer for all of creation’s query. You believe something and must lord your beliefs over others like some divine edict.

If you have found the god within yourself you must worship, then serve that god with all your might. Give him everything he needs and make sure he is healthy and loved. Worship and serve that god. Make sure you give him praise for loving you and providing for your every need. And you need to get about it quickly because the last breath you breathe will be the one that puts you face to face with a God who will not deal so kindly with your ultimate rejection.

[Gordon Greene]

Agreed...

[delacoert]

This means more than I can say.

To me too. Those subtle changes in language carry the meanings I need to see to understand better. Thank you for adding the variations.

[onedoug]

“For those of us who believe in physics,” Einstein once wrote to a friend, “this separation between past, present and future is only an illusion.”

Nonsense. Prove it.

[LeGrande]

You prove to me that God does not exist by what we see and I will be glad to point out a million reasons why He must.

I can't prove a negative, but I can falsify your assertions of GOD. Lets start with the obvious, assuming that you believe in the Jewish GOD, that means that you agree with me that none of the other GODs, like Vishnu, Despator, Allah, etc. etc. exist either. In short you will agree with me on 99% of the GODs, that they don't exist.

Now to the Jewish GOD that you believe in. Like I said I can't disprove a negative but I can falsify a positive assertion. So if you assert that this GOD is omnipresent, I can disprove that by looking in the bottom of my coffee cup. God isn't in the bottom of my coffee cup. Therefor I have disproven your GOD.

But I doubt that will satisfy you. Lets look at another supposed attribute of your GOD, Omniscience. Well that is easy to disprove with a simple equation ∆X ∆P ≥ hbar/2. Any measurement of the position with accuracy ∆X collapses the quantum state making the standard deviation of the momentum ∆P larger than hbar/2. Therefor an all knowing GOD can't exist.

But again, I sense a certain reluctance on your part to give up on your favorite fairy tale. Why don't you point to an accurate, verifiable, and fulfilled prophecy that your GOD has made? That would be a nice testable hypothesis.

What? Your GOD doesn't have a clear, accurate, verifiable prophecy? I suppose that is oops for you : )

[RoadGumby]

I hardly know where to start with this. Seldom have I seen on this forum such a willful case of blindness.

So if you assert that this GOD is omnipresent, I can disprove that by looking in the bottom of my coffee cup. God isn't in the bottom of my coffee cup. Therefor I have disproven your GOD.

I DO say God is Omnipresent, I saw His presence in the eyes and smile of my newborn children. Therefore I have proof of Him.

Omniscience. Well that is easy to disprove with a simple equation ∆X ∆P ≥ hbar/2. Any measurement of the position with accuracy ∆X collapses the quantum state making the standard deviation of the momentum ∆P larger than hbar/2. Therefor an all knowing GOD can't exist.

I DO say that God is Omniscient, and your use of an equation to attempt to 'bind' Him is doomed to failure, as God is also Omnipotent (See walking on water, splitting Red Sea, et al).

There IS a source, a starting point for this place and life, and it starts with "In the Beginning, God created...." Such a wonderful thing. And to top it off, He created man in His own image. Man is the ONLY animal or being on this planet that has a 'need' for worship. We were created that way, to seek and know our creator. Sadly, many turn away and worship other gods (little 'g'), even placing ourselves as the centerpiece of our 'worship'. Mankind, as it is, is not to be worshipped or trusted.

Verifiable prophecy. There are many prophesies of Jesus, that all proved true and accurate.

Psalm 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying

8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

12 Many bulls have compassed me : strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round

13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water and all my bones are out of loint, my heart is like wax: it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet

18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Psalm 22, called the Messianic Psalm, clearly describes the crucifixion of Jesus, the scorn, shame, how he was pierced. There others telling that none of his bones were to be broken (Common to break the legs of the crucified, to hasten death). This was written/foretold hundreds of years prior to Jesus' time, and then it happened. See also Isaiah 53 for more pre-Jesus prophesy of Jesus' coming and death.

This is no 'fantasy'. There is a Creator, He sent the world His Son, and his word tells us He will not be mocked. He is Loving and Just. His Word and promises are true. I would that you would not harden your heart to this and have the ears to hear and turn to our Creator. God loves you, even you, and me too for that matter. I do pray that you do not have the 'eternal oops' moment that awaits your continued disbelief.

[D-fendr]

God, by all major religion’s descriptions, cannot be seen or proved by science. It’s axiomatic that whatever you prove by science alone is not God.

Science limits itself to a subset of reality - what can be known most firmly. This is very good and useful, we can fly planes with it.

However, the deepest values of our human existence is not subject to the methods required by science. Science is value free.

Among the essences of God are the objective qualities goodness and beauty. Again, undetectable and unmeasurable by science.

Scientism is the belief that only that which can be known (proved) by science is true (or exists in reality). This philosophy contains a logical contradiction, and was debunked shortly after its arrival a few centuries ago.

It is, however, still a prevalent view in the modern world.

[delacoert]

scientists often have to meditate on the disturbing fact that strange theories turn out to be true.

Amazing. No takers. And here's a valid opportunity to make a case.

[Gordon Greene]

LeGrande... YOU GOT ME!!! You're so danged smart I can't figure out what to say... I've gotta call the big guns on this one. (P.S. Don't read the next part. I'm keeping your identity secret so the other folks won't be biased in their answer).

Hey guys! (GGG, Fichori, Metmom and all the rest of y'all)

I'm going to post a reply that I received concerning the existence of God (It's not from LeGrande). Please let me know if you have received one with as little credibility before. I'm not even sure where to start (most of you know how easily I am left stumped and searching for a response).

I must be honest... I'm used to having to work much harder for such a splendidly inane reply. I owe my gratitude to LeGrande... I mean whoever sent it. Let me know what y'all think!

BONUS!!! I'd like for someone to guess LeGrande's (dang it!) nationality by his spelling of the word, "therefore". I would have considered it an error if it hadn't occurred twice. (Plus someone so well versed in quantum physics wouldn’t have made such a glaring error).

(ROLL TAPE) " I can't prove a negative, but I can falsify your assertions of GOD. Lets start with the obvious, assuming that you believe in the Jewish GOD, that means that you agree with me that none of the other GODs, like Vishnu, Despator, Allah, etc. etc. exist either. In short you will agree with me on 99% of the GODs, that they don't exist.

Now to the Jewish GOD that you believe in. Like I said I can't disprove a negative but I can falsify a positive assertion. So if you assert that this GOD is omnipresent, I can disprove that by looking in the bottom of my coffee cup. God isn't in the bottom of my coffee cup. Therefor I have disproven your GOD.

But I doubt that will satisfy you. Lets look at another supposed attribute of your GOD, Omniscience. Well that is easy to disprove with a simple equation ∆X ∆P ≥ hbar/2. Any measurement of the position with accuracy ∆X collapses the quantum state making the standard deviation of the momentum ∆P larger than hbar/2. Therefor an all knowing GOD can't exist.

But again, I sense a certain reluctance on your part to give up on your favorite fairy tale. Why don't you point to an accurate, verifiable, and fulfilled prophecy that your GOD has made? That would be a nice testable hypothesis.

What? Your GOD doesn't have a clear, accurate, verifiable prophecy? I suppose that is oops for you : )"

[metmom]

LG: But again, I sense a certain reluctance on your part to give up on your favorite fairy tale. Why don't you point to an accurate, verifiable, and fulfilled prophecy that your GOD has made? That would be a nice testable hypothesis.

Been there, done that.

He won't acknowledge anything anyone posts to him, no matter how clearly fulfilled it was.

His standard knee jerk reaction is to deny the validity of anything anyone else has to say about anything, all the while demanding that we take him at his word based on who knows what, cause he won't even establish that clearly, when he makes statements of laughable absurdity.

His posting style in that respect is so like some other FReepers that it kind of gives one pause.......

[metmom]

So if you assert that this GOD is omnipresent, I can disprove that by looking in the bottom of my coffee cup. God isn't in the bottom of my coffee cup. Therefor I have disproven your GOD.

Just like the Russian cosmonauts who claimed that they proved God didn't exist because they didn't see Him out in space.

As ridiculous now as it was then.

[Gordon Greene]

I think he’s the one (or two) that I’ve accused of singly ganging up on folks. His debate style is abhorrent and really is more of a vitriolic (if not silly) attack.

Don’t have much time for that kind...

[LeGrande]

His posting style in that respect is so like some other FReepers that it kind of gives one pause.......

Huh? Someone is copying me? That probably isn't a good thing, but I am curious as to whom you are referring.

[LeGrande]

BONUS!!! I'd like for someone to guess LeGrande's (dang it!) nationality by his spelling of the word, "therefore". I would have considered it an error if it hadn't occurred twice. (Plus someone so well versed in quantum physics wouldn’t have made such a glaring error).

Can I play? It is a puzzle since I didn't use bloody in conjunction with therefor, but I am prone to leaps of logic. I must be a cheese eating surrender monkey : )

[Fichori]

“Hey guys! (GGG, Fichori, Metmom and all the rest of y'all)” [excerpt]

Totally relevant:

How to Tripple-Frost A Christmas Fruit Cake.

Your Christmas fruit cake should age for at least four weeks before you frost it. During this time, you can, in you wish, poke holes in it with a thin knitting needle and infuse it with rum, cognac or sherry. Wrap firmly between infusions.

read more...

Mmmmm, fruitcake....

Details at the link.

[Gordon Greene]

I’m going to have to thank you for this simple Holiday dose of perspective (and agree with the obvious relevancy)...

Sincerely,

GG

[LeGrande]

Just like the Russian cosmonauts who claimed that they proved God didn't exist because they didn't see Him out in space.

And I suppose you see and talk to GOD over your morning bagel and coffee? When you can show us a GOD that other people can see and verify then I can take you seriously.

[Judith Anne]

There are lots of things that can’t be seen or touched, nevertheless are quite real: decisions, intentions, assessments, judgments, humor, patriotism, maternal bond, etc. All have effects in the physical world.

Nor can one see the wind—the effects, yes, the force from the movement of air, but the force behind the movement cannot be seen or touched.

Actually, the thoughts typed out on the screen are electrons that cannot be seen or touched, arranged in ways that, without sound, carry meaning from mind to mind....it would have seemed like unbelievable magic to someone in the middle ages...

The fact that prayer does not make sense to you does not mean that it isn’t real communication between the Deity and His creature. That could simply be the way your brain is wired, and the chemistry of your synapses.

Fear not! No one can force anyone to believe, nor would anyone here try.

[LeGrande]

The fact that prayer does not make sense to you does not mean that it isn’t real communication between the Deity and His creature. That could simply be the way your brain is wired, and the chemistry of your synapses.

Actually prayer and the concept of god, make perfect sense to me. Stress levels get lowered and performance gets enhanced, but self delusion comes with a price, just watch any suicide bomber in action.

[Judith Anne]

The fact that prayer does not make sense to you does not mean that it isn’t real communication between the Deity and His creature.

[LeGrande]

The fact that prayer does not make sense to you does not mean that it isn’t real communication between the Deity and His creature.

Has this Deity told you anything interesting lately?

[RoadGumby]

You asked for one prophesy that came true, I gave one. An important one.

But here is another.

Written by Isaiah, somewhere around 680 BC. Israel has been captured/over run and taken captive to Babylon. Isaiah prophesies, quite clearly and specifically:

Isaiah 44

24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

25That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;

26That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:

27That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:

28That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

Verse 24 identifies the speaker, The Lord.

Verse 26 identifies the messenger and who it is for AND what is to occur.

Verse 28 identifies WHO is to do this.

Fast forward then to the Book of Ezra, written aroung 450 BC, just to help you out, that is about 230 years betwen them.

Ezra 1

1Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,

2Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

3Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.

4And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.

5Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.

And so, amazingly enough, 230 years AFTER Isaiah prophesied that a Cyrus would tell Jerusalem (captive Israel) that he would allow the rebuilding of the temple, along comes Persia to defeat Babylon and King Cyrus releases Israel to return to Jerusalem.

Also, Psalm 14:1 says “The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”

Just a little food for thought for someone who obviously needs fed.