A Sabbath Resurrection and Wednesday Crucifixion of Yeshua the Messiah

www.torahtimes.org ^ | March 6, 2009 | Daniel Gregg

[Achi]

One problem that we run into is that the women may have bought and prepared the ointments and spices on Friday but they returned, according to Gregg's theory, on Sabbath. This would be breaking Sabbath. They would have been coming to the tomb to prepare the body (anoint it) on Sabbath. They would not have done this.

Another thing, the Jewish culture teaches that everything revolves around the Sabbath. When the Sabbath ends they start counting towards the next.

Like this:

Sunday = The first of Sabbaths

Monday = The second of sabbaths

Tuesday = The third of sabbaths

Wednesday = The fourth of sabbaths

Thursday = The fifth of sabbaths

Friday = Preparation Day

Saturday = Sabbath

I hope this helps

The research seems to never end. lol

-Jay

[Diego1618]

One problem that we run into is that the women may have bought and prepared the ointments and spices on Friday but they returned, according to Gregg's theory, on Sabbath. This would be breaking Sabbath.

The oral law (The Mishna), which was in effect at the time, dictated that to perform these functions for a corpse would not be an illegal activity on the Sabbath. This is what would have been allowed:

A. They prepare all that is needed for a corpse. B. They anoint and rinse it, C. on condition that they not move any limb of the corpse. D. They remove the mattress from under it. E. And they put on sand so that it will keep. F. They tie the chin, G. not so that it will go up, but so that it will not droop. H. And so in the case of a beam which broke I. they support it with a bench or the seams of a bed, J. not so that it will go up, but so that it will not droop. K. They do not close the eyes of a corpse on the Sabbath, L. nor on an ordinary day at the moment the soul goes forth. M. And he who closes the eyes of a corpse at the moment the soul goes forth, lo, this one sheds blood. [p. 207, The Mishnah, A New Translation, Shabbat 23:5]

The women rested according to the Law on the first Sabbath but they had legal justification to go to the tomb on the weekly Sabbath. It was the custom for grieving friends and relatives to go to a grave on the third day to pay last respects. It was at this point in time that death was considered permanent. So a Sabbath morning visit to The Lord's tomb by the women for the purpose of anointing his body would have been in accord with the oral law and would not have broken the Sabbath commandment.

[antisocial]

BTTT For later

[Achi]

Good info.

What about the Jews referring to the days as I listed? 1st of sabbath, 2nd of sabbath, etc... This kind of puts a kink in the theory since it is based on the principle that it must be the Sabbath and not the first day of the week = the first of Sabbaths. (which can either be a reference to the first day of the week, since that is how they counted them off, or it could also be the 1st day of 50 counted for Pentecost, could it not?)

Jay

[Diego1618]

What about the Jews referring to the days as I listed? 1st of sabbath, 2nd of sabbath, etc... This kind of puts a kink in the theory since it is based on the principle that it must be the Sabbath and not the first day of the week = the first of Sabbaths.

The problem ....as I see it.......the seven Sabbaths between Passover and Pentecost would be referred to in the plural (SABBATWN).....as the Greek indeed shows. The days of the week would not be....but referred to as first day of the SABBATON, Second day of SABBATON....etc. Every time SABBATWN is used in scripture it designates mention of Holy Days (plural) or noted Sabbaths (plural). SABBATON doesn't!

As you can see....all the resurrection passages use the term SABBATWN.....not SABBATON. To call it the "first of the Sabbaths" and mean one particular day would be kind of awkward. To say "First of the Sabbaths" and mean the first Sabbath in the seven Sabbath count to Pentecost.....would not be awkward. The 50 day "Count of the Omer" would by necessity include seven Sabbath days. Since they were part of this "Feast of Weeks" (Seven Weeks) they were considered special Sabbaths. And, of course....since The Lord resurrected on the First of these Sabbaths....it is now considered even more special.

The fact that the Greek for "Week" is EBDOMA...and appears nowhere in the New Testament does not seem to be a problem for many. The resurrection texts are referring to the First Sabbath day between Passover and Pentecost. As an added note.....the Greek word for "day" (HEMERA) appears no where in the resurrection texts either.

[Daniel Gregg]

Achi,

      Diego answered your question about the women "working" on the Sabbath the same way I would have—by quoting the relevant section of the Mishnah.   I would add that in Jewish culture, that when tasks of like nature were required that it was usually left to the women to do it.   The body of Yeshua was wrapped in a single linen sheet on the eve of the Passover Sabbath, then after that Sabbath, on Friday Joseph and Nicodemus wrapped the body in linen strips with the 100 weight of spices.   The remaining task was left to the women to complete the anointing on the third day.  The Mishnah Shabbat 23:5 is directed toward the situation when the body is already in the grave, and defines what housekeeping may be done for the body on the sabbath.   It specifically allows them to "anoint" the "corpse".

I don't know where you got the list in your post.   However, it is entirely contrived to correspond with the grammar and syntax of "first of the sabbaths".

Please see (http://www.torahtimes.org/images/ChartoftheWeek02.jpg)

The facts.

1. The alleged usage does not occur in either English, Greek, Syriac, or Aramaic.

2. The alleged use does not occur in vernacular speech of Hebrew or any language.

3. The alleged usage only occurs in written form in parts of the traditional Jewish literature after AD 140.

4. The alleged usage does not occur in any language before AD 100, but only after the Church altered the meaning of the phrase, "first of the sabbaths", for which the first evidence of the alteration is the Didache.

5.  In the actual Hebrew usage the phrase is אחד בשבת, the earliest instance which is AD 140.

6.  In the Hebrew there is a lack of correspondence between the Greek σαββατων which is in the plural, and the Hebrew שבת which is singular.

7. Further, there is a lack of correspondence between the Hebrew preposition ב and  the genitive case used by the Greek.   To make it correspond would require the dative case in Greek.

8. Further the Hebrew word אחד is in the masculine gender whereas the Greek word is in the feminine.

9.  The Hebrew expected from μια των σαββατων is אחת השבתות.

In linguistics even exact correspondence of a phrase may still have different meanings:

1.  When will the ambassador arrive?  HEISNOWHERE and I hear him knocking at the door.

2.  When did you last see the ambassador?  We've looked all over for him, and HEISNOWHERE.  Whatever shall we do?

In linguistics a slight alteration of grammar can change the whole meaning of a phrase:

1. This is to be the "first of the months" 2. It is the "first of the month"

We see that the plural makes all the difference in the world.

     Now since we have shown that there are three major differences, it cannot be shown that the one phrase was meant to mean the other phrase.   And just as I have said before, just because a monkey has 98% the same DNA as man does not mean that man came from monkey.   The same thing works here.  Just because there are some similarities between two phrases does not mean one means the other.

"Sunday = The first of Sabbaths

Monday = The second of sabbaths

Tuesday = The third of sabbaths

Wednesday = The fourth of sabbaths

Thursday = The fifth of sabbaths

Friday = Preparation Day

Saturday = Sabbath"

Therefore this list is contrived and misleading.  It was made to order to look like "first of the sabbaths" but has so many differences with the limited Mishnaic usage that it has the be ASSUMED they are the same.   But the evidence does not warrant the assumption.

 

The Friday-Sunday theory cannot claim one objective straightforward piece of evidence that uniquely supports it.

I am not saying you made this list up Achi,  it looks to me like Bishop Lightfoot first created it:

    You will notice two things about the Bishop.  First he believed in Sabbath transference theology to Sunday, and second, he mistranslated the Hebrew or Aramaic where he wanted to to make it look like it matched up with the NT, mostly out of ignorance of Hebrew, Aramaic, and wishful theology that the Talmud would rubber stamp his beliefs of NT usage.   His ignorance shows up right away in supposing that שבא means  "Sabbath".  Actually this word is the same as שבע

 

in which Aramaic has transmutted the ayin for alef.   The word simply means "seven", i.e. "one in seven" in the larger phrase.  Its a dead giveaway when the tav is only used for "preparation of sabbath" and "sabbath" itself.

      Notice the Bishop's last comment?  The "new sabbath".   Well this is just the original Gnostic theology.   Like good cultists the 2nd century Gnostics admitted the grammar was "first of the Sabbaths" but since their followers had no Torah context, they reinterpreted the phrase like any cultist would:  they made it the "first of the sabbaths" of the new creation, i.e. the first sabbath of the new dispensation --Sunday to go along with their Mithraic syncretism.

"Sunday = The first of Sabbaths

Monday = The second of sabbaths

Tuesday = The third of sabbaths

Wednesday = The fourth of sabbaths

Thursday = The fifth of sabbaths

Friday = Preparation Day

Saturday = Sabbath"

[Diego1618]

Excellent Post.....Daniel!

I have been away all day to a double header baseball outing and just now noticed it. It's kind of hard to see how one could disagree with what you say.

We won both games! YAY!

[Achi]

The Sabbath of [Mark 16:1] is the First Day of Unleavened Bread [Leviticus 23:6], the 15th of Nisan. This fell on a Diego1618, you said:

"Wednesday night/Thursday daytime in the year of the crucifixion. The women buy the spices after this Sabbath is over.....on Thursday night or Friday daytime....the 16th and a non Sabbath day. They spend much of the day (Friday) in the preparation of those spices. They rest again for the weekly Sabbath beginning at sundown Friday the 17th and visit an empty tomb on Saturday morning at sunrise.....also the 17th.

If this is true then why does John say this:

Jhn 19:40 So they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews.

This says Yeshua was already anointed when He was placed in the tomb. The women had time apparently to purchase and prepare the spices before the Feast of Unleavened Bread started. This puts a kink in the argument that there is a gap between the 2 Sabbaths which means it can not be on Wednesday. It could be on a Thursday but Wed means they would have buried Him without anointing Him first but we see in John that they did.

Thoughts?

-Jay

[Achi]

nevermind diego i found the scripture that support your argument mark 16:1

[Daniel Gregg]

John 19:39-40 is a parenthetical comment of what took place on Friday. When Yeshua was first put in the grave, they wrapped him in one linen sheet. But later, after the annual Sabbath Joseph came back with Nicodumus and the did the proper burial with linen strips this time.  W. Graham Scroggie, D.D. explains in "a guide to the gospels":

 

[Diego1618]

The Sabbath of [Mark 16:1] is the First Day of Unleavened Bread [Leviticus 23:6], the 15th of Nisan. This fell on a Diego1618, you said:

????????

[Daniel Gregg]

Bump:

The Sabbath resurrection also works with Daniel 9:

[Achi]

By this logic you are saying that He was buried before the Sabbath (Feast of Unleavened Bread which is the 1st of 2 Sabbaths) and then Friday comes and goes and the women return "on the first of the Sabbaths, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bearing the spices they made ready, and certain {others} with them.

I'm trying to understand this but I feel like laughing when you guys tell me (and others) that it is a stretch for our views to work and yet you are trying to make sense of a verse that you say is translated as:

After the Sabbath they returned to the tomb before the first of Sabbaths began.

Why would they phrase it like this or even attempt to do so when it makes no sense at all?

You can not say --- after the first, the first began.

Especially when, as Diego said, this is not a count down to Pentecost (which I think is a possibility). I would have to say that it would be phrased telling us that the 1st Sabbath ended and the next was about to begin. It doesn't make any attempt at this and that makes me question it.

Also, my number of days (1st of Sabbath, 2nd of Sabbath (in numbering days of the week was referenced by Lightfoot and you can also find it in the Siddur [it is Jewish culture and you should know this]). None the less I think this study is interesting and I commend you on the time and effort you have put into it. I just think there are many questions still remaining. I have read over other theories as well that back up, from a Jewish perspective, the Friday-Sun resurrection as well as Thursday - Sunday. Everybody has good solid study put into it but in the end it may be just as His birth was. We know it happened but we don't exactly know when. Being okay with not knowing every aspect of every little detail and having complete comfort and faith in it is a Hebrew mindset. Needing every little detail answered before you are okay with it is a Greek mindset. I've been working very hard to continue with seeing things in a Hebrew mindset, I'm not willing to go back to the Greek way of thinking.

Here are some studies to look at:

http://tikvatdavid.com/Tikvat_David/Torah_Learning_files/Passover%20and%20Yeshua%27s%20Crucifixion.pdf

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/3157

Jay

[Diego1618]

By this logic you are saying that He was buried before the Sabbath (Feast of Unleavened Bread which is the 1st of 2 Sabbaths) and then Friday comes and goes and the women return "on the first of the Sabbaths, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bearing the spices they made ready, and certain {others} with them.

Crucifixion week was also the beginning of Passover and "The Days of Unleavened Bread." Passover preparation began on Tuesday night and lasted until Wednesday at sunset. This 24 hour period was the 14th of Nisan [Leviticus 23:5]. During this 24 hours The Lord and His disciples celebrated a "Last Supper" together during the night period which also saw Judas leave to betray him to the Sanhedrin; A visit to the Garden of Gethsemane for prayer and fellowship; An arrest by the Chief Priests, scribes and soldiers (this is where the suffering at the hands of mankind begins) [Matthew 16:21][Mark 8:31][Luke 9:22]....the "Heart of the Earth" [Matthew 12:40]; And a visit to the home of the High Priest where a mock trial and physical abuse occurs.

At sunrise of the 14th He is taken to Pilate's residence for interrogation.....on to King Herod and then back to Pilate for further abuse and suffering. He is flogged, bleeding and is given a crown of thorns. It is now late morning of the 14th and He is taken to Golgotha for crucifixion at the 6th hour. He dies as the lambs are being slaughtered (3:00 P.M. "Between the Evenings") in the temple for the upcoming Passover meal which will begin at sunset.

Joseph of Arimethia obtains His body from the stake and entombs him shortly before sunset. The First Sabbath of Unleavened begins and the Passover is now being eaten all over Jerusalem as the sun is setting. This begins the 15th of Nisan [Leviticus 23:6].....and it is now Wednesday night.

If you were to ask any first century Jew what was meant by the phrase "First of the Sabbaths" they would answer, "The first weekly Sabbath between Pesach and Shavuot." They would not say, "The First Sabbath of Unleavened Bread" (although the observance indeed had two Sabbaths). So.... when we say "The first of the Sabbaths" which is the correct Greek translation for [Matthew 28:1][Mark 16:2][Luke 24:1][John 20:1; 20:19][Acts 20:7][I Corinthians 16:2]....we don't mean the First Sabbath of Unleavened Bread [Leviticus 23:6]! We mean the first weekly Sabbath between Passover and Pentecost.

I'm trying to understand this but I feel like laughing when you guys tell me (and others) that it is a stretch for our views to work and yet you are trying to make sense of a verse that you say is translated as: After the Sabbath they returned to the tomb before the first of the Sabbaths began .

It is now evident you are construing the phrase "First of the Sabbaths" incorrectly. It does not mean the first Sabbath of Unleavened.....it means the first of seven Sabbaths between Passover and Pentecost [Leviticus 23:15-16].

Especially when, as Diego said, this is not a count down to Pentecost (which I think is a possibility). I would have to say that it would be phrased telling us that the 1st Sabbath ended and the next was about to begin. It doesn't make any attempt at this and that makes me question it.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.....or where I said this. You do understand that there was a non Sabbath day in between the Sabbath of Unleavened (Wednesday night/Thursday) and the weekly Sabbath (Friday night/Saturday)....don't you?

You can not say --- after the first, the first began.

I don't believe I've ever said that.

[Diego1618]

From your suggested article: The First Day of the Week

Not one time does the author use the correct Greek word that is used in all the resurrection texts. I'll list them for you;

[Matthew 28:1] oye de sabbatwn th epifwskoush eiV mian sabbatwn hlqen maria h magdalhnh kai h allh maria qewrhsai ton tafon

[Mark 16:2] kai lian prwi ths mias sabbatwn ercontai epi to mnhmeion anateilantoV tou hliou

[Luke 24:1] th de mia twn sabbatwn orqrou baqeos hlqon epi to mnhma ferousai a htoimasan arwmata kai tines sun autais

[John 20:1] th de mia twn sabbatwn maria h magdalhnh ercetai prwi skotiaV eti oushV eiV to mnhmeion kai blepei ton liqon hrmenon ek tou mnhmeiou

The word the author of your article uses is SABBATON. It doesn't mean the same thing. Here is an example of the correct usage of SABBATON: [Mark 2:27] kai elegen autoiV to sabbaton dia ton anqrwpon egeneto ouc o anqrwpoV dia to sabbaton i.e. "And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath."

MIA TWN SABBATWN does not mean "First Day of the Week". SABBATWN means Sabbaths (plural) and your article does not say "First day of the weeks".

You might write and ask Mr. Lyons why he doesn't use the correct word. I realize people fight tooth and nail to preserve their Sunday heritage.....but to purposely use a word in their article that doesn't even appear in any of the Greek passages......is disingenuous.

[TheThirdRuffian]

A very interesting article.

Not sure if I buy it, mind you, but interesting.

I have increasingly noticed how badly we have strayed from original Christian beliefs, so I see this as very plausible.

[Diego1618]

A very interesting article.

Just to clarify.....I didn't post this. Daniel Gregg was the poster.

I have increasingly noticed how badly we have strayed from original Christian beliefs, so I see this as very plausible.

Yup! It's amazing when you read First Century (Greek) Scripture without all the traditions that have embedded themselves into the Lord's word for 1700 years. When you eliminate the non scriptural doctrine that has crept in.... and now taken for granted by many......a different story begins to take shape.

Many folks are comfortable in their Churchianity (it's what they grew up with) and are unwilling.... sometimes to listen to a different perspective.

Thank you for your comments.

[Achi]

In post 45 you said: "To say "First of the Sabbaths" and mean the first Sabbath in the seven Sabbath count to Pentecost.....would not be awkward.

Sorry, I didn't see the word "not" when I was reading it. I really need to be done here. I'm not readingthings very well and I'm getting tired of misquoting you guys and looking like a fool.

With much love

-Jay

[Diego1618]

With much love -Jay

Likewise.......Jay, and blessings to your home and all within.

[Daniel Gregg]

Hi Ruffian,

I'm a very careful and demanding researcher, even of myself. I must confess that I was not absolutely confident of such a radical disagreement with tradition until I used the solution to Solve Daniel 9 and the rest of biblical chronology. So I don't blame you for doubts. The Sunday traditon is like Goerbells proverbial repeat a lie often enough that it becomes the truth -- very compelling if you don't have absolute truth to counter it. Anyway, I did the hard work and left the means to verify it. Just follow the links to the chronology book.