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Dissident theologian criticizes pope's opening to Anglicans
cns ^ | October 28, 2009 | Sarah Delaney

Posted on 10/28/2009 4:19:53 PM PDT by NYer

ROME (CNS) -- Dissident theologian Father Hans Kung criticized Pope Benedict XVI for his recent opening to discontented Anglicans, charging the pope was "fishing" for the most conservative Christians to the detriment of the larger church.

Father Kung said the invitation to traditionalist Anglicans to join the Roman Catholic Church went against years of ecumenical work on the part of both churches, calling it instead "a nonecumenical piracy of priests."

The pope's basic message is: "Traditionalists of all churches, unite under the dome of St. Peter's!" Father Kung wrote in an editorial Oct. 28 in the Rome daily La Repubblica.

"Look: The fisherman is fishing above all on the 'right' side of the lake. But the water is muddy," he said.

The Vatican announced Oct. 20 that the pope was establishing a new structure to welcome Anglicans who want to be in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church while maintaining some of their spiritual and liturgical traditions. Many of the Anglicans who have asked the Vatican for such a provision are dismayed by the ordination of women and by the blessing of homosexual unions and the ordination of openly gay bishops in some provinces of the Anglican Communion.

While emphasizing the importance of celibacy for priests, the Vatican said a dispensation would be made for former Anglican priests who are married to be ordained Catholic priests. However, they will not be able to become bishops.

Father Kung, a Swiss theologian who has taught in Germany for decades, warned that married newcomers will cause resentment on the part of celibate Catholic clergy.

In 1979 the Vatican withdrew permission for him to teach as a Catholic theologian, although it did not restrict his ministry as a Catholic priest.


In the editorial, Father Kung also lambasted Pope Benedict's recent efforts to bring back into the fold members of the Society of St. Pius X, a group of breakaway Catholics opposed to the changes in the church following the Second Vatican Council.

"After reintegrating the anti-reformist Society of St. Pius X, now Benedict XVI wants to flesh out the thinning ranks of Roman Catholics with like-minded Anglicans," Father Kung wrote in the editorial.

He also criticized Anglican Archbishop Rowan Williams of Canterbury, head of the Anglican Communion, who "in his desire to ingratiate himself with the Vatican apparently didn't understand the consequences of the papal fishing trip in Anglican waters."


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: anglican; b16; benedictxvi; bxvi; catholic; coe; duplicate; episcopalian; hanskung; kung; pope; sspx; tac; vatican

1 posted on 10/28/2009 4:19:53 PM PDT by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 10/28/2009 4:20:24 PM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer
They only have themselves to blame.
3 posted on 10/28/2009 4:22:45 PM PDT by mware (F-R-E-E, that spells free. Free Republic.com baby.)
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To: NYer

I don’t see how conservative, orthodox Anglicans are going to want to join the Roman Catholic Church. It is preposterous. This was more an invitation to Anglo Catholics ,who operate in the Episcopal church almost identically to Roman Catholics, to stop pretending to be Protestants and come into the fold.


4 posted on 10/28/2009 4:28:30 PM PDT by sueuprising
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To: NYer
"fishing" for the most conservative Christians to the detriment of the larger church.

the 'larger church' needs more anglican types and fewer progressive cradle catholics hell-bent on following the example of the Episcopal Church.

5 posted on 10/28/2009 4:29:24 PM PDT by x_plus_one (In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell)
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To: NYer

This Kung character is trouble. I read some of his material while in the process of converting to the church.


6 posted on 10/28/2009 4:33:45 PM PDT by wombtotomb
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To: x_plus_one

Such as Hans Kueng.


7 posted on 10/28/2009 4:33:50 PM PDT by RobbyS (ECCE HOMO!)
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To: NYer
Hans Kung is still alive? He's been kvetching for over half a century now...
8 posted on 10/28/2009 4:42:59 PM PDT by utahagen
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To: utahagen

High time Hans was summoned before that Big Curia in the sky.


9 posted on 10/28/2009 4:56:43 PM PDT by TaxachusettsMan
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To: sueuprising

You are right to make the distinction between “conservative” and “Anglo-Catholic”. But, do not confuse liturgy with patrimony as it is the latter that is being offered. Once you understand the ethos of the Anglo-Catholic, then you will begin to see how more important this move is.

This is an incredible gesture by Pope Benedict XVI. I suggest you start looking eastward to get an idea of how much God’s hand may be involved in his pontificate.


10 posted on 10/28/2009 5:21:38 PM PDT by WhoHuhWhat
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To: NYer

Sorry, wrong recipient.

You are right to make the distinction between “conservative” and “Anglo-Catholic”. But, do not confuse liturgy with patrimony as it is the latter that is being offered. Once you understand the ethos of the Anglo-Catholic, then you will begin to see how more important this move is.

This is an incredible gesture by Pope Benedict XVI. I suggest you start looking eastward to get an idea of how much God’s hand may be involved in his pontificate.


11 posted on 10/28/2009 5:27:42 PM PDT by WhoHuhWhat
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To: NYer; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment

Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”

12 posted on 10/28/2009 6:11:31 PM PDT by narses ("These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own.")
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To: WhoHuhWhat
You are right to make the distinction between “conservative” and “Anglo-Catholic”. But, do not confuse liturgy with patrimony as it is the latter that is being offered. Once you understand the ethos of the Anglo-Catholic, then you will begin to see how more important this move is. This is an incredible gesture by Pope Benedict XVI. I suggest you start looking eastward to get an idea of how much God’s hand may be involved in his pontificate.

<smile> :) </smile>

Most Roman Catholics have no clue what that Anglo-Catholic ethos is. But then a little leaven leaventh the whole lump.

13 posted on 10/28/2009 6:29:35 PM PDT by stripes1776 ("That if gold rust, what shall iron do?" --Chaucer)
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To: NYer

It’s being polite to Hans Kung to call him a dissident. A better term would be heretic. He is still trying to peddle his garbage, but there are fewer and fewer takers.

As it happens, I grew up Episcopal, and had the good fortune to go to a Church School where the Headmaster was High Anglican and the chapel was indistinguishable from a Catholic chapel. I haven’t been back in many years, but I’m afraid things changed. They brought in women priests, gave away the beautiful, life-sized Crucifix that had been behind the altar, and even organized a pro-abortion march on Washington which brought letters of protest from some of us alumni to the school newspaper.

But it was a wonderful education. Even the Sacrament of Confession—technically not a Sacrament in the Anglican Church, but permitted (though not encouraged) by the Book of Common Prayer, where it is mentioned in two places: before the service of the Lord’s Supper, and before the rites for the dying.

I subsequently became Catholic, not so much because I thought that Anglican teaching was false, but because it did not seem to me to represent the Universal Church, and because it was so clearly a niche in a Church that also included a lot of strange doings.

In fact, when I assisted at services with the Cowley Fathers in Cambridge, they spoke of the service as “the Mass,” and they genuflected to the Sacrament. But they had to remove the Sacrament from the sacristy and hide it when their bishop visited their chapel from Boston, because he refused to genuflect. Rather than argue with him, they just hid it away.


14 posted on 10/28/2009 6:54:48 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: stripes1776

Probably a good thing as Anglicans have a tendency to publish introspective “who we are” treatises more than the rest of Christian denominations combined!

The simple answer (with many holes) is an Eastern theology with a Western liturgy.

The Oxford Movement in general and a comparison of John Keble, Edward Pusey and Cardinal John Henry Newman in particular will give you a wealth of understanding of the Anglo-Catholic ethos and why so many RC Seminaries have a “Newman House”.:)


15 posted on 10/28/2009 7:06:05 PM PDT by WhoHuhWhat
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To: WhoHuhWhat
The simple answer (with many holes) is an Eastern theology with a Western liturgy.

Since you said with many holes, I agree. The Easter Orthodox element is unmistakable, assuming the examiner is willing to see what is before his eyes.

16 posted on 10/28/2009 7:25:27 PM PDT by stripes1776 ("That if gold rust, what shall iron do?" --Chaucer)
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To: NYer
OK, I put this on the other thread, I ain't ashamed, I'll say it again:

Oy, Hänsli, du hirnlose Sabbelheini:

Go over there, like a good boy, and bother them for awhile, k?

17 posted on 10/28/2009 7:41:04 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - (recess appointment))
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To: Cicero
The advantage of growing up Piskie (at least for those of us who predate the New Prayer Book) is that you have the majestic language of Cranmer's Prayer Book in your bones and blood.

One of the huge stumbling blocks to conversion for me was the execrable ICEL translation. It's going to improve with the amendments . . . but not enough.

I hope the Tiber-Crossers get together and have a couple of good 16th century scholars re-translate the Words of Consecration for the AU Rite. Talk about a new patch on an old garment!!!!! Send forward the reweavers!

18 posted on 10/28/2009 7:50:23 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - (recess appointment))
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To: Cicero

Your story is emblematic of the last 30 years. Many Episcopalians have used their heretical teachings to leave the church altogether: Blame the church and stay home to sleep in and read the paper on Sunday mornings. Many others have sought the safety of Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Moscow or some combination of the same :).

We must appreciate the problem of geography when the faithful of the Anglican Communion found themselves with nowhere else to go during the radical changes. In the same way, in my area, many drive 40 miles past the local Vatican 2 RC Church to get to the nearest Trinitine Church.

I was recently on vacation and, as an Anglo-Catholic, attended the nearby RC Basilica the Sunday I was away (no, I did not take communion). I remember thinking, Wow, this is a Mass?? In short, everything Vatican 2 has done to the Mass that Anglo-Catholics have not was sad to see.

As to sacramental confession, the local RC Church offers 30 minutes of confession on Saturdays for a parish of 1000 family’s. Hmmm, that is one long stretch of mortal sin! The Anglican BCP has sacramental confession in both the 1662 and 1928 for the sick (not dying). The Anglican and American Missal has the Confiteor. The oils, the sacrament, and sacramental confession are the constant duty of an Anglo-Catholic priest.

It is time for the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church to respond to our Lord’s call and His Holiness Benedict XVI is responding to God’s call for him.


19 posted on 10/28/2009 8:25:26 PM PDT by WhoHuhWhat
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To: stripes1776

So true, I would offer the Epiclesis as an influence from the East, and the Filioque as an example of the Western influence to our liturgy.

But both are modern arguments that ignore the united church of the first millennium. Anglo-Catholics can be nothing more than the grease that brings East and West together. Yet, can anything be more worth while?


20 posted on 10/28/2009 9:20:58 PM PDT by WhoHuhWhat
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To: TaxachusettsMan
He'll need a lot of prayers if he even makes it to Purgatory.

Hans K¸ng Former theologian condemned by the Vatican.

21 posted on 10/28/2009 9:29:40 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: WhoHuhWhat
Anglo-Catholics can be nothing more than the grease that brings East and West together.

It's my opinion that that is a large factor in Pope Benedict's decision to do this now. There is a lot riding on how well this goes over the next 3 years or so. I hope he lives long enough to see it through. There is going to be a lot of opposition building in both the Catholic Church and among the Orthodox Churches. He will have to do this carefully.

I think Benedict is one of the greatest minds the papacy has ever seen. We will have to wait and see how good a diplomat he is.

22 posted on 10/28/2009 9:40:49 PM PDT by stripes1776 ("That if gold rust, what shall iron do?" --Chaucer)
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To: stripes1776

I agree, but remember it was Cardinal Ratzinger that in 1981 was appointed to head the “Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith”. This is when Anglo-Catholics were looking to Rome for an answer to female priests and he was the gate keeper.

The fact that this is not the work of papal whim, but the compilation of 30 years of dialogue gives us hope.


23 posted on 10/28/2009 10:05:07 PM PDT by WhoHuhWhat
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To: WhoHuhWhat
The fact that this is not the work of papal whim, but the compilation of 30 years of dialogue gives us hope.

Yes, you are exactly right.

24 posted on 10/28/2009 10:17:57 PM PDT by stripes1776 ("That if gold rust, what shall iron do?" --Chaucer)
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To: NYer

Hans Kung and Joseph Ratzinger were both theology professors at the University of Tübingen circa 1960-68. In response to the tumult of the 1960’s, Kung moved to the liberal side and Ratzinger became more conservative.


25 posted on 10/28/2009 11:28:30 PM PDT by iowamark (certified by Michael Steele as "ugly and incendiary")
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To: WhoHuhWhat

I remember how shocked leftie commentators were when the College of Cardinals elected an even more conservative Pope than Paul VI.


26 posted on 10/29/2009 5:21:33 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: NYer
Mr. Kung might, possibly, find that the Episcopal Church is more friendly to his brand of "christianity".

Maybe.

27 posted on 10/29/2009 5:23:51 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard; AnAmericanMother
Mr. Kung might, possibly, find that the Episcopal Church is more friendly to his brand of "christianity".

Fr. Mitch Pacwa noted the other day that in the past, Catholics who disagreed with the Church's teachings, simply left. Now, he said, they hang around to invite dissident speakers and write slanderous articles. Were they to leave, they would lose all that attention. Good point!

28 posted on 10/29/2009 6:24:54 AM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: ArrogantBustard

It might be hard for an older guy like Kung to out-dissident the priestesses and bishops in “gay relationships”. Why give yourself the competition?

Freegards


29 posted on 10/29/2009 6:52:13 AM PDT by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed Says Keep the Faith!)
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Hans Kung

30 posted on 10/29/2009 8:55:12 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: NYer
dissident
31 posted on 10/29/2009 8:59:04 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Perfect: Note that the individual in your picture is not wearing clericals ...


32 posted on 10/29/2009 8:59:41 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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