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Lectionary Statistics - How much of the Bible is included in the Lectionary for Mass? (Popquiz!)
catholic-resources.org ^ | Updated on January 2, 2009 | Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D.

Posted on 11/01/2009 3:53:11 AM PST by GonzoII

THE ROMAN CATHOLIC LECTIONARY WEBSITE
by Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D.

Lectionary Statistics

How much of the Bible is included in the Lectionary for Mass?
Not as much as you might think, yet far more than was included in the Roman Missal before the Second Vatican Council!

The bishops assembled at Vatican II declared, "The treasures of the Bible are to be opened up more lavishly so that a richer fare may be provided for the faithful at the table of God's word. In this way the more significant part of the Sacred Scriptures will be read to the people over a fixed number of years" (Sacrosanctum Concilium, #51). As the following tables show, the current Lectionary for Mass does indeed offer a "richer fare" of biblical readings during the Eucharistic liturgy than was available before Vatican II. However, since many parts of the Bible (esp. the Old Testament) are still not included in the Lectionary, one must go beyond the readings used at Mass to cover the entire Bible.

The following tables compare the current edition of the Lectionary for Mass (1981 Latin, 1998/2002 USA editions)
with the pre-Vatican II Missale Romanum (substantially unchanged between 1570 and 1969, with a few modifications in 1951)
and the complete New American Bible (see the bottom of this page for a key to the column headings).

Readings from the Old Testament:

Before Vatican II, each Catholic Mass included only two biblical readings, which were normally referred to as "The Epistle" (since the first reading was almost always taken from one of the New Testament letters) and "The Gospel." Readings from the Old Testament were never used on Sundays, but only at the Easter Vigil, the Vigil of Pentecost, the feast of Epiphany and its octave, during Holy Week, and on some weekdays (esp. Ember days, weekdays of Lent, the feasts of some saints, and some votive Masses).

Since Vatican II, Masses on Sundays and major feast days include three biblical readings, the first of which is usually taken from the Old Testament (except during the Easter Season, when the first reading is from the Acts of the Apostles). The OT reading is normally very brief and thematically related to the Gospel reading of the day, so there is no detectable order or semi-continuous pattern from one Sunday to the next. Weekday Masses usually have only two readings, the first of which is taken from either the OT or the NT, according to a two-year weekday cycle.

OT Name of Book NAB Pre-Vatican II Missal:
Vigils & Feasts
Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Major Feasts
Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Weekdays
# Chap. # Vv. Total Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used
1 Genesis 50 1533 100** 6.5 % 138 9.0 % 428 27.9 %
2 Exodus 40 1213 28 2.3 % 112 9.2 % 208 17.1 %
3 Leviticus 27 859 0 0 % 9 1.0 % 42 4.9 %
4 Numbers 36 1289 0 0 % 11 0.9 % 81 6.3 %
5 Deuteronomy 34 959 9 0.9 % 52 5.4 % 106 11.1 %
6 Joshua 24 658 0 0 % 9 1.4 % 42 6.4 %
7 Judges 21 618 0 0 % 0 0 % 51 8.3 %
8 Ruth 4 85 0 0 % 0 0 % 21 24.7 %
9 1 Samuel 31 810 0 0 % 31 3.8 % 148 18.3 %
10 2 Samuel 24 695 0 0 % 19 2.7 % 110 15.8 %
11 1 Kings 22 817 0 0 % 37 4.5 % 166 20.3 %
12 2 Kings 25 719 0 0 % 14 1.9 % 100 13.9 %
13 1 Chronicles 29 943 0 0 % 0 0 % 0 0 %
14 2 Chronicles 36 821 0 0 % 8 1.0 % 17 2.1 %
15 Ezra 10 280 0 0 % 0 0 % 21 7.5 %
16 Nehemiah 13 405 0 0 % 8 2.0 % 19 4.7 %
17 Tobit 14 245 0 0 % 0 0 % 71 29.0 %
18 Judith 16 340 0 0 % 0 0 % 0 0 %
19 Esther 16 272 0 0 % 0 0 % 7 2.6 %
20 1 Maccabees 16 922 0 0 % 0 0 % 54 5.9 %
21 2 Maccabees 15 556 0 0 % 8 1.4 % 35 6.3 %
22* Job 42 1068 0 0 % 11 1.0 % 87 8.1 %
24* Proverbs 31 915 0 0 % 24 2.6 % 47 5.1 %
25 Ecclesiastes 12 222 0 0 % 4 1.8 % 34 15.3 %
26 Song of Solomon 8 117 0 0 % 0 0 % 7 6.0 %
27 Wisdom of Solomon 19 436 0 0 % 42 9.6 % 102 23.4 %
28 Sirach/Ecclesiasticus 51 1372 0 0 % 48 3.5 % 208 15.2 %
29 Isaiah 66 1291 24** 1.9 % 166 12.9 % 322 24.9 %
30 Jeremiah 52 1364 0 0 % 38 2.8 % 162 11.9 %
31 Lamentations 5 154 0 0 % 0 0 % 8 5.2 %
32 Baruch 6 213 30** 14.1 % 27 12.7 % 44 20.7 %
33 Ezekiel 48 1273 14** 1.1 % 48 3.8 % 180 14.1 %
34 Daniel 14 530 24** 4.5 % 5 0.9 % 178 33.6 %
35 Hosea 14 197 16 8.1 % 11 5.6 % 38 19.3 %
36 Joel 4 73 0 0 % 5 6.8 % 27 37.0 %
37 Amos 9 146 0 0 % 13 8.9 % 51 34.9 %
38 Obadiah 1 21 0 0 % 0 0 % 0 0 %
39 Jonah 4 48 10** 20.8 % 6 12.5 % 39 81.3 %
40 Micah 7 105 0 0 % 4 3.8 % 24 22.9 %
41 Nahum 3 47 0 0 % 0 0 % 8 17.0 %
42 Habakkuk 3 56 0 0 % 5 8.9 % 12 21.4 %
43 Zephaniah 3 53 0 0 % 8 15.1 % 13 24.5 %
44 Haggai 2 38 0 0 % 0 0 % 18 47.4 %
45 Zechariah 14 211 0 0 % 5 2.4 % 24 11.4 %
46 Malachi 3 55 0 0 % 6 10.9 % 18 32.7 %

* Note 1: The above table does not include the Psalms, since they are used so often in various ways during the Mass.
** Note 2: The 1951 revision of the Roman Missal reduced the number of OT readings at the Easter Vigil from twelve to four,
and omitted all six OT readings from the Pentecost Vigil, thereby further reducing the total amount of the OT read before Vatican II;
remaining were only 33 verses of Genesis, 28 of Exodus, 9 of Deuteronomy, 12 of Isaiah and 16 of Hosea. For details, see the Roman Missal page.

OT Summary:

OT Section NAB Pre-Vatican II Missal:
Vigils & Feasts
Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Major Feasts
Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Weekdays
# Chap. # Vv. Total Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used
Torah/Law 187 5853 137 2.3 % 322 5.5 % 865 14.8 %
Historical Books 316 9186 0 0 % 134 1.5 % 862 9.4 %
Wisdom Books (w/o Psalms) 163 4130 0 0 % 129 3.1 % 485 11.7 %
Four Major Prophets 191 4825 92 1.9 % 284 5.9 % 894 18.5 %
Twelve Minor Prophets 67 1050 26 2.5 % 63 6.0 % 272 25.9 %
OT Total (w/o Psalms) 924 25044 255 1.0 % 932 3.7 % 3378 13.5 %
Note 3: The 1951 revision of the pre-Vatican II Roman Missal (see note 2 above) reduced the total to only
98 verses or 0.39% of the Old Testament (aside from the Psalms) read at Vigils and major feast days.

Readings from the New Testament:

Before Vatican II, the same readings were used each year for the various Masses in the Roman Missal. The first reading was usually from one of Paul's Letters or the Catholic Epistles. The Gospel readings were most often taken from Matthew or John, less frequently from Luke, and only rarely from Mark.

Since Vatican II, much more of the New Testament is included in the Lectionary for Mass. The Acts of the Apostles is used as the first reading on the Sundays and weekdays during the Easter season. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke are read semi-continuously on the Sundays of Ordinary Time on a three-year cycle, while passages from the Gospel of John are used mostly during the seasons of Lent and Easter and on several major feast days. Excerpts from all other NT books and letters are used as the second reading at Masses on Sundays and major feasts according to a three-year cycle, and/or weekday Masses on a two-year cycle. (Click on any of the previous underlined links for more details.)

NT Name of Book NAB Pre-Vatican II Missal:
Sundays & Major Feasts
Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Major Feasts
Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Weekdays
# Chap. # Vv. Total Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used
1 Matthew 28 1071 373 34.8 % 594 55.5 % 916 85.5 %
2 Mark 16 678 30 3.4 % 414 61.1 % 653 96.3 %
3 Luke 24 1151 188 16.3 % 650 56.5 % 1011 87.8 %
4 John 21 879 256 30.0 % 526 59.8 % 813 92.5 %
5 Acts 28 1007 35 3.5 % 165 16.4 % 492 48.9 %
6 Romans 16 433 69 15.9 % 117 27.0 % 228 52.7 %
7 1 Corinthians 16 437 75 17.2 % 162 37.1 % 244 55.8 %
8 2 Corinthians 13 256 40 15.6 % 48 18.8 % 123 48.0 %
9 Galatians 6 149 45 30.2 % 47 31.5 % 90 60.4 %
10 Ephesians 6 155 57 36.8 % 96 61.9 % 141 91.0 %
11 Philippians 4 104 25 24.0 % 47 45.2 % 73 70.2 %
12 Colossians 4 95 16 16.8 % 35 36.8 % 62 65.3 %
13 1 Thessalonians 5 89 16 18.0 % 39 43.8 % 69 77.5 %
14 2 Thessalonians 3 47 0 0.0 % 17 36.2 % 28 59.6 %
15 1 Timothy 6 113 0 0.0 % 20 17.7 % 51 45.1 %
16 2 Timothy 4 83 0 0.0 % 25 30.1 % 39 47.0 %
17 Titus 3 46 9 19.6 % 8 17.4 % 28 60.9 %
18 Philemon 1 25 0 0.0 % 8 32.0 % 19 76.0 %
19 Hebrews 13 303 17 5.6 % 84 27.7 % 188 62.0 %
20 James 5 108 11 10.2 % 31 28.7 % 99 91.7 %
21 1 Peter 5 105 33 31.4 % 36 34.3 % 57 54.3 %
22 2 Peter 3 61 0 0.0 % 7 11.5 % 15 24.6 %
23 1 John 5 105 13 12.4 % 33 31.4 % 95 100.0 %
24 2 John 1 13 0 0.0 % 0 0.0 % 6 46.2 %
25 3 John 1 15 0 0.0 % 0 0.0 % 4 26.7 %
26 Jude 1 25 0 0.0 % 0 0.0 % 6 24.0 %
27 Revelation 22 404 0 0.0 % 38 9.4 % 129 31.9 %

NT Summary:

NT Section NAB Pre-Vatican II Missal:
Sundays & Major Feasts
Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Major Feasts

Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Weekdays

# Chap. # Vv. Total Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used
Gospels (4) 89 3779 848 22.4 % 2184 57.8 % 3393 89.8 %
Acts 28 1007 35 3.5 % 165 16.4 % 492 48.9 %
Pauline Letters (7) 61 1493 270 18.1 % 468 31.3 % 846 56.7 %
Deutero-Paulines (6) 26 539 82 15.2 % 201 37.3 % 349 64.7 %
Hebrews 13 303 17 5.6 % 84 27.6 % 188 62.0 %
Catholic Epistles (7) 21 432 57 13.2 % 107 24.7 % 292 67.6 %
Book of Revelation 22 404 0 0 % 38 9.4 % 129 31.9 %
NT w/o Gospels 171 4178 461 11.0 % 1063 25.4 % 2296 54.9 %
NT Grand Total 260 7957 1309 16.5 % 3247 40.8 % 5689 71.5 %

Key to the Column Headings:

Main Lectionary Page 1998/2002 USA Edition 1992 Canadian Edition
Links to Other Websites 1970 USA Edition Roman Missal (Pre-Vatican II)


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This page was last updated on January 2, 2009.
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TOPICS: Catholic; General Discusssion; Worship
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; liturgy; scripture
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To: marshmallow

Nothing to contradict it except the verses saying all had sinned...

You also need to study the full of grace passage a bit harder...it means God had given her grace at some point (no idea how long is conveyed) and it still existed at the time the angel spoke. It did NOT in any way suggest she was always without sin, just as the same grammar in the previous verses didn’t indicate she had always been betrothed to Joseph!

The error of Catholics in reading about the church in the NT is to assume ‘church’ refers to the ecclesiastical structure that is the Catholic Church. That is why Thomas More was upset with Tyndale’s better translation of ‘congregation’ - it robbed Rome of authority. That is also why King James ordered it not to be used in the KJV - to protect the Anglican Church, which in turn protected his throne.

However, the NT church had congregations with deacons and elders. The Apostles, by their office, held a unique role over ANY congregation, and also in writing scripture.

Read Exodus 28-29 to see how God ordained the Aaronical Priesthood. Why be so specific about Aaron, and give nothing specific to Peter?


151 posted on 11/03/2009 9:06:55 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: GonzoII
www.catholicnewsagency.com

Thirty-first Week in Ordinary Time
November 3, 2009
Psalter: Week III
Color: Green


Saints:
Daily Readings:
  • First Reading: Romans 12:5-16a

     5 So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
    6 And having different gifts, according to the grace that is given us, either prophecy, to be used according to the rule of faith;
    7 Or ministry, in ministering; or he that teacheth, in doctrine;
    8 He that exhorteth, in exhorting; he that giveth, with simplicity; he that ruleth, with carefulness; he that showeth mercy, with cheerfulness.
    9 Let love be without dissimulation. Hating that which is evil, cleaving to that which is good.
    10 Loving one another with the charity of brotherhood, with honour preventing one another.
    11 In carefulness not slothful. In spirit fervent. Serving the Lord.
    12 Rejoicing in hope. Patient in tribulation. Instant in prayer.
    13 Communicating to the necessities of the saints. Pursuing hospitality.
    14 Bless them that persecute you: bless, and curse not.
    15 Rejoice with them that rejoice; weep with them that weep.
    16 Being of one mind one towards another. Not minding high things, but consenting to the humble. Be not wise in your own conceits.

  • Psalm: Psalms 131:1-3

    1 Lord, my heart is not exalted: nor are my eyes lofty. Neither have I walked in great matters, nor in wonderful things above me.
    2 If I was not humbly minded, but exalted my soul: As a child that is weaned is towards his mother, so reward in my soul.
    3 Let Israel hope in the Lord, from henceforth now and for ever.

  • Gospel: Luke 14:15-24

    15 When one of them that sat at table with him, had heard these things, he said to him: Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.
    16 But he said to him: A certain man made a great supper, and invited many. 17 And he sent his servant at the hour of supper to say to them that were invited, that they should come, for now all things are ready.
    18 And they began all at once to make excuse. The first said to him: I have bought a farm, and I must needs go out and see it: I pray thee, hold me excused.
    19 And another said: I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to try them: I pray thee, hold me excused.
    20 And another said: I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
    21 And the servant returning, told these things to his lord. Then the master of the house, being angry, said to his servant: Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the feeble, and the blind, and the lame.
    22 And the servant said: Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
    23 And the Lord said to the servant: Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
    24 But I say unto you, that none of those men that were invited, shall taste of my supper.


152 posted on 11/03/2009 9:28:43 AM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: Mr Rogers
You also need to study the full of grace passage a bit harder...it means God had given her grace at some point (no idea how long is conveyed) and it still existed at the time the angel spoke. It did NOT in any way suggest she was always without sin, just as the same grammar in the previous verses didn’t indicate she had always been betrothed to Joseph!

The Church has actually been studying this passage very hard for 2,000 years. There's no need for me to study anything "harder". It's not a personal thing. This is the collective wisdom of saints, Popes, theologians and doctors of the Church. That's why tradition trumps some guy in a suit who's done a "course" on Scripture.

Dismiss it at your peril.

The error of Catholics in reading about the church in the NT is to assume ‘church’ refers to the ecclesiastical structure that is the Catholic Church.

The "church in the NT" is the Catholic Church in its infancy. The term "catholic" was first used by Ignatius of Antioch when referring to the growing church. It goes back a long way.

153 posted on 11/03/2009 9:36:16 AM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: marshmallow
My question therefore is this; why should that gift of "infallibility" extend only to the writing and assembly of Scripture and not to its interpretation and transmission?

The early church fathers viewed the scriptures as being divinely influenced. So much so they sorted the inspired word of God from those writings they deemed was not inspired, giving us the Bible. They knew what was true and what wasn't. The construction of the Bible was simply to do it now before time corrupted the work of God. Not surprisingly, the fathers never included their own works as inspired by God.

It is interesting that if anything in Church history should be considered infallible it would be the creeds of the Church. They draw on scripture but often do not contain scripture, to explain doctrinal positions of the Church. Therefore, if anything would be considered infallible in Church writings, I would think it would be the creeds.

However, some of the very earliest creeds, which were approved by the Church and handed down, seems to have holes in them. For example, the Nicene Creed is often argued between the Catholics and Orthodox about whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son or from the Father and Son. Catholics would have to say that the Nicene Creed is infallible but where does that leave the Orthodox? Is the Church about to say the Orthodox's interpretation is wrong? Are they willing to scrap the Nicene Creed?

If infallibility extends to interpretation in the early church, there is no evidence of it. In fact, quite the contrary. From the writings of the early fathers, in most cases they seem to draw their arguments directly from scripture. Everything else, was always viewed as suspect.

154 posted on 11/03/2009 4:46:56 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: GonzoII; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; wmfights; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; Marysecretary; Iscool; ...
These RC statistics are nothing to brag about. I don't know a Protestant who hasn't read 100% of the New Testament and most if not all of the Old Testament. Every Protestant I converse with on this forum gives evidence of having read the entire Bible.

Check the charts below, taken from the article itself. By doing "nothing to practice his faith except attending Sunday weekly Mass (and the few Holy Days), in two years' time (after which the reading cycle ends), a Mass-attending Catholic will hear 3.7% of the Old Testament (932 verses), and in three years' time (after which the reading cycle ends) a Mass-attending Catholic will hear 40.8% of the New Testament (3247 verses). That all adds up to a total of 4179 out of 33001 verses mentioned in the chart, i.e. only 12.7% of the entire Bible (excluding Psalms) is heard by a weekly-Mass-attending Catholic...

Check the charts below. By doing "nothing to practice his faith except attending Sunday and Daily Mass (and the few Holy Days), in two years' time (after which the reading cycle ends), a Mass-attending Catholic will hear 13.5% of the Old Testament (3378 verses), and in three years' time (after which the reading cycle ends) a Mass-attending Catholic will hear 71.5% of the New Testament (5689 verses). That all adds up to a total of 9067 out of 33001 verses mentioned in the chart, i.e. only 27.5% of the entire Bible (excluding Psalms) is heard by a daily-Mass-attending Catholic.

Obviously Protestants view Scripture differently than Roman Catholics who are taught they first must learn what Scripture means from the magisterium before reading it themselves.

155 posted on 11/03/2009 10:39:48 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
a Mass-attending Catholic will hear 3.7% of the Old Testament (932 verses), and in three years' time (after which the reading cycle ends) a Mass-attending Catholic will hear 40.8% of the New Testament (3247 verses). That all adds up to a total of 4179 out of 33001 verses mentioned in the chart, i.e. only 12.7% of the entire Bible (excluding Psalms) is heard by a weekly-Mass-attending Catholic...

It would then take a devout Catholic approx. 21.5 years to make it thru the bible...Not too bad considering...

156 posted on 11/04/2009 4:45:47 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; GonzoII; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; wmfights; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; Marysecretary; ...

It becomes clear that the fixed and reliably constant message of grace from the Scriptures was an unwelcome obstacle the Catholic Church could not tolerate. The manufacture of “Tradition eclipsing Scripture” was inevitable to facilitate morphing as the wind blows at headquarters.

Why would a Catholic argue against homosexuality, abortion or pedophilia? They can only say, “For now...” If Rome adopts these views, they would be compelled to embrace them as the new “living message”. Line up sheeple. Tragic.


157 posted on 11/04/2009 7:42:22 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
"Why would a Catholic argue against homosexuality, abortion or pedophilia? They can only say, “For now...” If Rome adopts these views, they would be compelled to embrace them as the new “living message”.

What have you been smoking...!!

158 posted on 11/04/2009 7:49:31 AM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: papertyger

Exactly. I get told here all the time that they read the OT and Revelation plus all the rest. NOT.


159 posted on 11/04/2009 8:18:47 AM PST by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Mr Rogers

Amen, Mr. Rogers. Where were your children from?


160 posted on 11/04/2009 8:24:41 AM PST by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Mr Rogers

That’s why it’s so important to read scripture for yourselves at home.


161 posted on 11/04/2009 8:25:43 AM PST by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Mad Dawg

Whew, glad protestants don’t have to go to purgatory.


162 posted on 11/04/2009 8:27:25 AM PST by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: GonzoII

Apparently, you are struggling to keep up with the thread...

It has been observed that the Catholic Church’s perspective is that the Scriptures are subordinated to the “leadership” and their interpretations, their current views of issues, and new revelation. This “dynamic” view of the Gospel leaves you with a message always in flux. It is not the historic message of grace, but the most recent ideas of popes and bishops. You are compelled by your own admission to submit to the “Church”, over the “written word”.

Thus, because Catholics admit that there are things which the Catholic Church now teaches that are “newer” than the Scriptural take (Mary, etc.), I was pointing out that you have no idea what new doctrines are around the bend. You can only say, “For now we are taught this is true...” Next week, homosexuality, abortion or pedophilia may be adopted by Rome and you will be stuck with condoning them. Get it?


163 posted on 11/04/2009 8:45:00 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Melian

Our pastor has for years encouraged all of us to read through the Bible in a year. My husband reads faithfully every day and sometimes goes through it twice in a year. We study it in Sunday School (now it’s Ephesians) and our pastor is doing a study in Phillippians for eight weeks. We get a lot of Bible.


164 posted on 11/04/2009 9:40:10 AM PST by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Melian

Our pastor has for years encouraged all of us to read through the Bible in a year. My husband reads faithfully every day and sometimes goes through it twice in a year. We study it in Sunday School (now it’s Ephesians) and our pastor is doing a study in Phillippians for eight weeks. We get a lot of Bible.


165 posted on 11/04/2009 9:40:17 AM PST by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Alex Murphy

Good post, Alex.


166 posted on 11/04/2009 9:43:09 AM PST by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Alex Murphy

Yaayyyy. Good post!


167 posted on 11/04/2009 9:51:44 AM PST by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Alex Murphy

Yaayyyy. Good post!


168 posted on 11/04/2009 9:52:21 AM PST by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Alex Murphy

Yaayyyy. Good post!


169 posted on 11/04/2009 9:52:21 AM PST by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: marshmallow

No church is infallible. All have heresies.


170 posted on 11/04/2009 10:03:47 AM PST by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: GonzoII; Dr. Eckleburg; Marysecretary; Alex Murphy; boatbums
"What have you been smoking...!! "

As I said, herein lies a grave dilemma for Catholics. You cannot hearken to the Scriptures to rein in headquarters from wandering away from the Gospel, since they are your definers of truth. If they say it has changed, you cannot argue.

You cannot know what they will reveal tomorrow that will become the "new truth" you must believe. Instead, you must stand hat in hand, waiting, waiting to be told what it is that you should now believe.

Come out to the light of Christ, alone, if you can. We, see the perpecuity of the Scriptures and are free to read them, and understand them. But, they never change. No headquarters dictating a "moving" belief (newer revelation). Rather, the enjoyment of grappling with the text to see its plenary and beautiful content And fellowship with others doing the same. We correct each other, based upon the best persuasive arguments for authorial intent. We are enslaved to God, not men.

We understand people drift away (managed by God, according to the Text), but the Scriptures gives us something to point "back" to when we notice it. And we notice it here...Rome has drifted far from shore, if it was ever close. Waiting for the response.

171 posted on 11/04/2009 10:54:56 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Marysecretary

Both were from the Philippines, where I was stationed at the time. One is now 28 (how did I get so old, as to have a 28 year old kid!) and the other is 25. The older one (boy) is still in the Army National Guard (CA). His younger sister did a tour in the Marines.


172 posted on 11/04/2009 11:02:13 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Dutchboy88
As I said, herein lies a grave dilemma for Catholics. You cannot hearken to the Scriptures to rein in headquarters from wandering away from the Gospel, since they are your definers of truth. If they say it has changed, you cannot argue.

You cannot know what they will reveal tomorrow that will become the "new truth" you must believe. Instead, you must stand hat in hand, waiting, waiting to be told what it is that you should now believe.

"Shut up and kiss the ring"

173 posted on 11/04/2009 11:34:17 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him" - Job 13:15)
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To: Dutchboy88
"If they say it has changed"

That's where you're mistaken, they never will because the truth can't change.

174 posted on 11/04/2009 11:55:47 AM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: Marysecretary
"No church is infallible. All have heresies."

You've just stated that Christ cannot protect his Church from error. Certainly you're not greater than Christ.

175 posted on 11/04/2009 11:58:19 AM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: Dutchboy88
"Next week, homosexuality, abortion or pedophilia may be adopted by Rome and you will be stuck with condoning them. Get it?"

I sure do and did!

So what have ya been smokin'?

176 posted on 11/04/2009 12:02:05 PM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: Marysecretary; GonzoII
No church is infallible.

This statement contradicts Scripture.

    1 Timothy 3:15 ... which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

177 posted on 11/04/2009 12:04:46 PM PST by Titanites
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To: Dutchboy88
"You cannot know what they will reveal tomorrow that will become the "new truth" you must believe."

Certainly you are refering to the thousands of Protestant denominations...

178 posted on 11/04/2009 12:10:36 PM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII
"That's where you're mistaken, they never will because the truth can't change.

And your assurance of that is???

179 posted on 11/04/2009 1:02:45 PM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: GonzoII

As I said, our standard is the Scriptures. Yours? Oh, those guys with the tall hats and sequin bathrobes driving the bulletproof Yugo...


180 posted on 11/04/2009 1:04:18 PM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
"As I said, our standard is the Scriptures. Yours? "

1Tm:3:15: "The church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

181 posted on 11/04/2009 1:11:56 PM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII

No, the church is filled with humans who are not infallible. God does protect the truth but that doesn’t mean we follow it.


182 posted on 11/04/2009 1:15:01 PM PST by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Dutchboy88
"And your assurance of that is???"

Jesus Christ.

Mt:16:18: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

183 posted on 11/04/2009 1:16:12 PM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII

God may protect His church from error, but how many churches truly follow His truth. It’s in the Bible but how many folks really follow the truth that’s already in front of them.


184 posted on 11/04/2009 1:16:22 PM PST by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Mr Rogers

I love people from the Phillipines. Two of my best nurses were Filipino. Good decent people. I envy you. They also have a great dad.


185 posted on 11/04/2009 1:17:56 PM PST by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Mr Rogers

My oldest is 50 this week. How did I get THAT old so quickly?


186 posted on 11/04/2009 1:18:36 PM PST by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Marysecretary
"No, the church is filled with humans who are not infallible."

I agree, thus the need of the gift of infallibility.

Or else your following statement couldn't hold true.

"God does protect the truth but that doesn’t mean we follow it."

187 posted on 11/04/2009 1:21:48 PM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII
"Mt:16:18: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.""

Is that the current interpretation headquarters has ordered you to believe? Obviously, you can't decide, so if you need to call Rome and get back to us...

188 posted on 11/04/2009 1:30:29 PM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: GonzoII
"1Tm:3:15: "The church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.""

Is that the building you are referring to? If not, which guys are now deciding truth for you?

189 posted on 11/04/2009 1:32:16 PM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
"Is that the building you are referring to? "

Well since you can interpret Scripture on your own, you tell me....

190 posted on 11/04/2009 1:37:53 PM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: Dutchboy88
"Obviously, you can't decide, so if you need to call Rome and get back to us..."

Could you give me the right number to your denomination?

Church Year Established Founder Where Established
 
Catholic 33 Jesus Christ Jerusalem
 
Orthodox 1054 Schismatic Catholic
Bishops
Constantinople
 
Lutheran 1517 Martin Luther Germany
 
Anabaptist 1521 Nicholas Storch &
Thomas Munzer
Germany
 
Anglican 1534 Henry VIII England
 
Mennonites 1536 Menno Simons Switzerland
 
Calvinist 1555 John Calvin Switzerland
 
Presbyterian 1560 John Knox Scotland
 
Congregational 1582 Robert Brown Holland
 
Baptist 1609 John Smyth Amsterdam
 
Dutch Reformed 1628 Michaelis Jones New York
 
Congregationalist 1648 Pilgrims and Puritans Massachusetts
 
Quakers 1649 George Fox England
 
Amish 1693 Jacob Amman France
 
Freemasons 1717 Masons from four lodges London
 
Methodist 1739 John & Charles
Wesley
England
 
Unitarian 1774 Theophilus Lindey London
 
Methodist Episcopal 1784 60 Preachers Baltimore, MD
 
Episcopalian 1789 Samuel Seabury American Colonies
 
United Brethren 1800 Philip Otterbein &
Martin Boehn
Maryland
 
Disciples of Christ 1827 Thomas & Alexander
Campbell
Kentucky
 
Mormon 1830 Joseph Smith New York
 
Methodist Protestant 1830 Methodist United States
 
Church of Christ 1836 Warren Stone &
Alexander Campbell
Kentucky
 
Seventh Day Adventist 1844 Ellen White Washington, NH
 
Christadelphian (Brethren
of Christ
1844 John Thomas Richmond, VA
 
Salvation Army 1865 William Booth London
 
Holiness 1867 Methodist United States
 
Jehovah's Witnesses 1874 Charles Taze Russell Pennsylvania
 
Christian Science 1879 Mary Baker Eddy Boston
 
Church of God in Christ 1895 Various churches of God Arkansas
 
Church of Nazarene c. 1850-1900 Various religious bodies Pilot Point, TX
 
Pentecstal 1901 Charles F. Parkham Topeka, KS
 
Aglipayan 1902 Gregorio Aglipay Philippines
 
Assemblies of God 1914 Pentecostalism Hot Springs, AZ
 
Iglesia ni Christo 1914 Felix Manalo Philippines
 
Four-square Gospel 1917 Aimee Semple
McPherson
Los Angeles, CA
 
United Church of Christ 1961 Reformed and
Congregationalist
Philadelphia, PA
 
Calvary Chapel 1965 Chuck Smith Costa Mesa, CA
 
United Methodist 1968 Methodist and United
Brethren
Dallas, TX
 
Born-again c. 1970s Various religious bodies United States
 
Harvest Christian 1972 Greg Laurie Riverside, CA
 
Saddleback 1982 Rick Warren California
 
Non-denominational c. 1990s various United States

Top

 


Copyright 2001 - 2004 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved.
johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com

191 posted on 11/04/2009 1:43:46 PM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII
"Well since you can interpret Scripture on your own, you tell me....

Is this the standard method of argument that Rome recommends? Avoid the confrontation? Obfuscate with silly comebacks ("What are u smokin'", etc.)

My interpretation of the passage you quote is that it has nothing to do with proving Rome has an infallible lock on the truth. If one were to apply the ordinary hermeneutics that are used outside of the Catholic prison, we would understand it to apply to those who by grace are being rescued from our sins. We learn this study technique as part of our freedom in Christ.

But, Catholics are not allowed a personal view, are they? According to the Catholic clan around here, that is "private interpretation" not allowed by II Pet. 1. Of course, we know that is not what Peter is referring to, but don't let that stop you.

192 posted on 11/04/2009 1:52:23 PM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: GonzoII
"Could you give me the right number to your denomination?

Certainly...

Those rescued by Grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, applied to all of the elect from the foundation of the World.

Year established: Unknown but about the time of Adam

The founder? God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Looks like we win...

193 posted on 11/04/2009 1:57:20 PM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: GonzoII

More the pity that the Catholic Church, under the Bishop of Rome, decided to break away from the Orthodox...

You see, the real problem isn’t with Catholic Doctrine circa 400AD, although some errors were creeping in. The real problem has come from A) an ever-increasing sense of self-importance by the Bishop of Rome, and B) a belief that doctrine develops or ‘unfolds’ over time, so that things not thought of in 50 AD are dogma now.

That evolving dogma first drove away the Orthodox, who refused further to evolve any further (and they had gone too far already), and later forced the Reformers to completely split away.

In 33 AD, Jesus talked about assemblies of people. The NT talks about deacons and elders of congregations. While I understand how elders grew in importance in combating heresy, its flaw was that a hierarchical structure can be turned bad - increasing heresy - by one bad man easier than can a large group of congregations.

Jesus promised the assembly of believers that are His body wouldn’t fail. He gave no promise to an organization that didn’t exist, and that was not authorized by the Apostles. Hence your basic premise is flawed.

No serious review of history would say the Catholic Church started in 33 AD. It was in embryo form in 330 AD, and didn’t start to mature until perhaps 600 AD, as the Bishop of Rome took ever greater power to himself.

The Orthodox stayed truer to their roots, so it would be more accurate to say the Catholic Church was founded in 1054, after it broke away from the Orthodox in the east.


194 posted on 11/04/2009 2:15:32 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Dutchboy88; GonzoII

Just for comparison, here is the detail given at the founding of the Aaronic Priesthood:

1”Then bring near to you Aaron your brother, and his sons with him, from among the people of Israel, to serve me as priests—Aaron and Aaron’s sons, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar. 2 And you shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty. 3You shall speak to all the skillful, whom I have filled with a spirit of skill, that they make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him for my priesthood. 4These are the garments that they shall make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a coat of checker work, a turban, and a sash. They shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother and his sons to serve me as priests. 5They shall receive gold, blue and purple and scarlet yarns, and fine twined linen.

6 “And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue and purple and scarlet yarns, and of fine twined linen, skillfully worked. 7It shall have two shoulder pieces attached to its two edges, so that it may be joined together. 8And the skillfully woven band on it shall be made like it and be of one piece with it, of gold, blue and purple and scarlet yarns, and fine twined linen. 9You shall take two onyx stones, and engrave on them the names of the sons of Israel, 10six of their names on the one stone, and the names of the remaining six on the other stone, in the order of their birth. 11As a jeweler engraves signets, so shall you engrave the two stones with the names of the sons of Israel. You shall enclose them in settings of gold filigree. 12And you shall set the two stones on the shoulder pieces of the ephod, as stones of remembrance for the sons of Israel. And Aaron shall bear their names before the LORD on his two shoulders for remembrance. 13You shall make settings of gold filigree, 14and two chains of pure gold, twisted like cords; and you shall attach the corded chains to the settings.

15 “You shall make a breastpiece of judgment, in skilled work. In the style of the ephod you shall make it—of gold, blue and purple and scarlet yarns, and fine twined linen shall you make it. 16It shall be square and doubled, a span its length and a span its breadth. 17 You shall set in it four rows of stones. A row of sardius, topaz, and carbuncle shall be the first row; 18and the second row an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond; 19and the third row a jacinth, an agate, and an amethyst; 20and the fourth row a beryl, an onyx, and a jasper. They shall be set in gold filigree. 21There shall be twelve stones with their names according to the names of the sons of Israel. They shall be like signets, each engraved with its name, for the twelve tribes. 22You shall make for the breastpiece twisted chains like cords, of pure gold. 23And you shall make for the breastpiece two rings of gold, and put the two rings on the two edges of the breastpiece. 24And you shall put the two cords of gold in the two rings at the edges of the breastpiece. 25The two ends of the two cords you shall attach to the two settings of filigree, and so attach it in front to the shoulder pieces of the ephod. 26You shall make two rings of gold, and put them at the two ends of the breastpiece, on its inside edge next to the ephod. 27And you shall make two rings of gold, and attach them in front to the lower part of the two shoulder pieces of the ephod, at its seam above the skillfully woven band of the ephod. 28And they shall bind the breastpiece by its rings to the rings of the ephod with a lace of blue, so that it may lie on the skillfully woven band of the ephod, so that the breastpiece shall not come loose from the ephod. 29 So Aaron shall bear the names of the sons of Israel in the breastpiece of judgment on his heart, when he goes into the Holy Place, to bring them to regular remembrance before the LORD. 30And in the breastpiece of judgment you shall put the Urim and the Thummim, and they shall be on Aaron’s heart, when he goes in before the LORD. Thus Aaron shall bear the judgment of the people of Israel on his heart before the LORD regularly.

31 “You shall make the robe of the ephod all of blue. 32It shall have an opening for the head in the middle of it, with a woven binding around the opening, like the opening in a garment, so that it may not tear. 33On its hem you shall make pomegranates of blue and purple and scarlet yarns, around its hem, with bells of gold between them, 34a golden bell and a pomegranate, a golden bell and a pomegranate, around the hem of the robe. 35And it shall be on Aaron when he ministers, and its sound shall be heard when he goes into the Holy Place before the LORD, and when he comes out, so that he does not die.

36”You shall make a plate of pure gold and engrave on it, like the engraving of a signet, ‘Holy to the LORD.’ 37And you shall fasten it on the turban by a cord of blue. It shall be on the front of the turban. 38It shall be on Aaron’s forehead, and Aaron shall bear any guilt from the holy things that the people of Israel consecrate as their holy gifts. It shall regularly be on his forehead, that they may be accepted before the LORD.

39”You shall weave the coat in checker work of fine linen, and you shall make a turban of fine linen, and you shall make a sash embroidered with needlework.

40 “For Aaron’s sons you shall make coats and sashes and caps. You shall make them for glory and beauty. 41And you shall put them on Aaron your brother, and on his sons with him, and shall anoint them and ordain them and consecrate them, that they may serve me as priests. 42You shall make for them linen undergarments to cover their naked flesh. They shall reach from the hips to the thighs; 43and they shall be on Aaron and on his sons when they go into the tent of meeting or when they come near the altar to minister in the Holy Place, lest they bear guilt and die. This shall be a statute forever for him and for his offspring after him.

1”Now this is what you shall do to them to consecrate them, that they may serve me as priests. Take one bull of the herd and two rams without blemish, 2 and unleavened bread, unleavened cakes mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers smeared with oil. You shall make them of fine wheat flour. 3You shall put them in one basket and bring them in the basket, and bring the bull and the two rams. 4You shall bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance of the tent of meeting and wash them with water. 5Then you shall take the garments, and put on Aaron the coat and the robe of the ephod, and the ephod, and the breastpiece, and gird him with the skillfully woven band of the ephod. 6 And you shall set the turban on his head and put the holy crown on the turban. 7You shall take the anointing oil and pour it on his head and anoint him. 8Then you shall bring his sons and put coats on them, 9and you shall gird Aaron and his sons with sashes and bind caps on them. And the priesthood shall be theirs by a statute forever. Thus you shall ordain Aaron and his sons.

10”Then you shall bring the bull before the tent of meeting. Aaron and his sons shall lay their hands on the head of the bull. 11Then you shall kill the bull before the LORD at the entrance of the tent of meeting, 12and shall take part of the blood of the bull and put it on the horns of the altar with your finger, and the rest of the blood you shall pour out at the base of the altar. 13And you shall take all the fat that covers the entrails, and the long lobe of the liver, and the two kidneys with the fat that is on them, and burn them on the altar. 14But the flesh of the bull and its skin and its dung you shall burn with fire outside the camp; it is a sin offering.

15”Then you shall take one of the rams, and Aaron and his sons shall lay their hands on the head of the ram, 16and you shall kill the ram and shall take its blood and throw it against the sides of the altar. 17Then you shall cut the ram into pieces, and wash its entrails and its legs, and put them with its pieces and its head, 18and burn the whole ram on the altar. It is a burnt offering to the LORD. It is a pleasing aroma, a food offering to the LORD.

19 “You shall take the other ram, and Aaron and his sons shall lay their hands on the head of the ram, 20and you shall kill the ram and take part of its blood and put it on the tip of the right ear of Aaron and on the tips of the right ears of his sons, and on the thumbs of their right hands and on the great toes of their right feet, and throw the rest of the blood against the sides of the altar. 21Then you shall take part of the blood that is on the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it on Aaron and his garments, and on his sons and his sons’ garments with him. He and his garments shall be holy, and his sons and his sons’ garments with him.

22”You shall also take the fat from the ram and the fat tail and the fat that covers the entrails, and the long lobe of the liver and the two kidneys with the fat that is on them, and the right thigh (for it is a ram of ordination), 23and one loaf of bread and one cake of bread made with oil, and one wafer out of the basket of unleavened bread that is before the LORD. 24You shall put all these on the palms of Aaron and on the palms of his sons, and wave them for a wave offering before the LORD. 25Then you shall take them from their hands and burn them on the altar on top of the burnt offering, as a pleasing aroma before the LORD. It is a food offering to the LORD.

26”You shall take the breast of the ram of Aaron’s ordination and wave it for a wave offering before the LORD, and it shall be your portion. 27And you shall consecrate the breast of the wave offering that is waved and the thigh of the priests’ portion that is contributed from the ram of ordination, from what was Aaron’s and his sons’. 28It shall be for Aaron and his sons as a perpetual due from the people of Israel, for it is a contribution. It shall be a contribution from the people of Israel from their peace offerings, their contribution to the LORD.

29”The holy garments of Aaron shall be for his sons after him; they shall be anointed in them and ordained in them. 30The son who succeeds him as priest, who comes into the tent of meeting to minister in the Holy Place, shall wear them seven days.

31”You shall take the ram of ordination and boil its flesh in a holy place. 32And Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ram and the bread that is in the basket in the entrance of the tent of meeting. 33 They shall eat those things with which atonement was made at their ordination and consecration, but an outsider shall not eat of them, because they are holy. 34And if any of the flesh for the ordination or of the bread remain until the morning, then you shall burn the remainder with fire. It shall not be eaten, because it is holy.

35”Thus you shall do to Aaron and to his sons, according to all that I have commanded you. Through seven days shall you ordain them, 36and every day you shall offer a bull as a sin offering for atonement. Also you shall purify the altar, when you make atonement for it, and shall anoint it to consecrate it. 37Seven days you shall make atonement for the altar and consecrate it, and the altar shall be most holy. Whatever touches the altar shall become holy.

38”Now this is what you shall offer on the altar: two lambs a year old day by day regularly. 39One lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight. 40And with the first lamb a tenth seah of fine flour mingled with a fourth of a hin of beaten oil, and a fourth of a hin of wine for a drink offering. 41The other lamb you shall offer at twilight, and shall offer with it a grain offering and its drink offering, as in the morning, for a pleasing aroma, a food offering to the LORD. 42It shall be a regular burnt offering throughout your generations at the entrance of the tent of meeting before the LORD, where I will meet with you, to speak to you there. 43There I will meet with the people of Israel, and it shall be sanctified by my glory. 44I will consecrate the tent of meeting and the altar. Aaron also and his sons I will consecrate to serve me as priests. 45 I will dwell among the people of Israel and will be their God. 46And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, who brought them out of the land of Egypt that I might dwell among them. I am the LORD their God.


Now, compare what Catholics claim is the founding of the office of the “Vicar of Christ”:

“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Now, is it just be, or is there lacking a bit of comparable specificity? Particularly since half of it was later repeated to the disciples!


195 posted on 11/04/2009 2:24:42 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers
"Just for comparison, here is the detail given at the founding of the Aaronic Priesthood:

You mean to say, you cannot see the monstrosity of Rome inside that verse? Look closely...there it is, right next to Peter's golden slippers.

196 posted on 11/04/2009 3:35:50 PM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

“...Roman Catholics who are taught they first must learn what Scripture means from the magisterium before reading it themselves.”

Wrong. No one tells Catholics not to read the Bible. Our babies hear it every Sunday in Church and grow up hearing the Bible read to them at every Mass. Your post is passing on a falsehood. This is an example of bearing false witness against your neighbor.


197 posted on 11/04/2009 10:09:54 PM PST by Melian ("frequently in error, rarely in doubt")
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To: Marysecretary

“We get a lot of Bible.”

Yet your posts about Catholics lack Charity.


198 posted on 11/04/2009 10:15:00 PM PST by Melian ("frequently in error, rarely in doubt")
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To: Melian

That’s your perspective. If I didn’t love Catholics and want them to be saved, I wouldn’t bother.


199 posted on 11/04/2009 10:20:51 PM PST by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Marysecretary

The sarcastic comments about Catholics and their beliefs on this thread (not just yours) do not demonstrate love. They do demonstrate that “clanging gong” that St. Paul warned us about in 1 Corinthians though. (Can you believe it, I know that passage of the Bible! Me, a Catholic!)

The initial post of this thread proves Catholics do read the Bible. At EVERY Mass, after the 4 passages from the Bible are read, the book of Scripture is held aloft by the priest, who says, “The Word of the Lord” and all the Catholics, who are standing in respect for the Gospel, respond, “Amen” (I believe.) Catholics love, study and revere the Bible at every Mass, in addition to what they do on their own.

The lie about Catholics has been refuted. You are all beating a dead horse— or is it a gong?


200 posted on 11/04/2009 10:39:16 PM PST by Melian ("frequently in error, rarely in doubt")
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