Posted on 11/01/2009 3:53:11 AM PST by GonzoII
Sorry, Dutchboy88, but from a Catholic perspective all those denominations arguing over the interpretations of Scripture, correcting each other “based on the best persuasive arguments for authorial intent” and holding themselves up as authorities on Scripture while criticizing all those who don’t enjoy “grappling with the text” sound a bit more like Pharisees than Christians.
Catholics believe Christ promised to guide His Church and prevent it from teaching error in matters of faith. We see no problem in accepting authority: God’s, Christ’s, and the Apostles and their successors (the Pope’s). Why would Christ set up a tower of Babel when it came to setting up His Church? He would be clear, authoritative, and sensible. He is God and anything He established would be WELL established. What Protestants do with the Bible sounds like enslavement to me: constant bickering and refuting and negotiating about what each little line means without examining it in context and from the historical perspective. Sounds like Protestants are guided by persuasive arguments when interpreting the Bible. Gosh, what happens when there are TWO persuasive Bible interpreters in the same room?
The devil makes very persuasive arguments too. Persuasiveness is no litmus test for understanding God’s will for us. Abraham was not noted for being “persuasive”. Moses wasn’t very persuasive at all. The Jews often stopped doing what he told them God wanted. Hmmm, the Apostles: not one was known for being persuasive. None of them were even known for being well educated in Scripture. They often got it wrong in trying to understand what Christ was telling them. Only after the visit from the Holy Spirit did the Apostles become persuasive. Only then did they have the authority burning in their hearts and minds that was the gift of the Holy Spirit. Christ gave them the authority and promised He would continue to guide them as His Church.
The Holy Spirit is guiding every Pope to teach Truth on matters of faith. When the Pope speaks to us on matters of faith, we believe he is just as guided by the Holy Spirit as the authors of the Bible were, and as the Apostles were.
Rome was on the shore with Christ. Rome was told it would be fishing for men. Rome was told it would not be left an orphan by God’s Son. We put our faith in what the Apostles told us about Christ and the Church. They told us the authority passes to the successors of Peter.
We don’t need a “persuasive” fellow to tell us what to think about the Bible.
Sorry, Melian, that is precisely the point. If you are relying on the Scriptures to promise that, your guyes running the cult don't agree with you. They will decide what it is that your faith is. The pope is to be followed even when "new" revelation is given through his pointy hat. You folks are destiny-bound to accept whatever kook-ball direction that takes you. Read that...this is just how the Catholics strayed so far from the message of grace that is already in the Book that started this. We at least have a returning point...you guys are cut adrift to float ever further from the shore. Repent, Rome, if you can.
I’m not sure what you’re talking about, Dutchboy88. Whenever the Pope speaks “from the chair” he provides huge documents supporting his pronouncement that provide Scriptural and historical evidence for his teaching.
Catholicism’s basic teaching, the Creed, is virtually unchanged from the time of the Apostles. It is Protestants who have drifted away. We see that in the thousands of interpretations/denominations/persuasive leaders of the Protestant movement. If you’re looking for orthodoxy these days, Catholicism is where it’s at. Many Protestants are discovering that after their persuasive leaders ask them to accept gay marriage, women priests, and gay clergy.
The mocking tone of Protestant posts is un-Christian. And, though it makes the poster feel better, I doubt it persuades many readers.
Catholicism HAS changed, to include Purgatory, Priests offering sacrifice (a changed Eucharist), Indulgences, Mariology, Papal Supremacy...
The role of the Magisterium in ‘interpreting’ the Bible has become critical because so much Catholic doctrine is NOT found in scripture, and the plain meaning of the text shows the new doctrine to be contradictory.
Thank you, Mr. Rogers, I was away and unable to respond to Melian. But, those are precisely the kind doctrines/positions to which I was referring. Meanwhile, the Catholic Church has ignored the plain teaching of the Scriptures with respect to the message of grace the Bible originally set out. The church that claims to be founded on Peter has left Peter’s message far behind.
Melian, we repudiate those utterly ridiculous “Protestant” groups holding to unbiblical doctrines as we repudiate Rome. Birds of a feather.
We aim to make it patently clear that the Catholic Church has departed the Scriptural teachings of grace, substituting instead a modern day self-righteousness. Romes’s perspective is buried in nearly every position the organization takes, whether sacerdotalsim, purgatory, indulgences, mariolatry, the seven sacraments to salvation, the separate country it maintains, the swiss army that it hires, the money that it coined, or canonizing ordinary human beings. Shame on Rome.
This is not mockery...it is exposing the Mother Cult of the Vatican for what it is.
We will leave the persuasion up to God.
Actually, everything Catholics do is based on Scripture; those original passages you all cut out of the Bible. Our understanding of those passages continues to develop over time as the Holy Spirit continues to lead us toward all Truth.
Each of your successive posts is increasingly less “persuasive” and more incoherent. What IS being expressed very well is animosity. Rome is not ashamed; has not been ashamed for 2,000 years; and will not be ashamed 2,000 years from now. God the Father and Christ fashioned the Catholic Church and they don’t make mistakes.
Long after your roomfulls of “persuasive arguers” are gone and your words and personal interpretations of Scripture have faded from anyone’s memory, the Catholic Church will still be preaching the same Good News it has preached and will preach forever.
My personal opinion is that many Protestants who froth at the mouth with such hatred for the Pope are actually envious of his authority when it comes to his connection with Christ. Protestant “persuaders” seem to want to set themselves up as little, individual Popes who tell people what their interpretation of scripture is. This is, at the least, vanity; and, at the worst, the sin of pride. Christ has already made his selection for the leadership of His Church.
That is all the Catholic Church is comprised of...personal opinions of some guys in bathrobes and sequined slippers. Tragic. Repent Rome, if you can.
Rome has nothing to repent of. It is doing what Christ directs it to do.
I could resort to ridicule too. There’s plenty to ridicule about other Christian denominations. But I strive to have charity for others, especially those who are misguided. For them, I reserve pity.
One of the many things I love about Catholicism is that Art is part of our worship. We celebrate that man was imbued by God with the gift of artistry. We use it to worship Him.
Dutchboy88, have you ever attended a Catholic Mass? I think you would be surprised if you did. We read 4 passages from the Bible: something from the Old Testament, a psalm, a reading from the Acts or Epistles, and a passage of the Gospels. Before the Gospel, we make a sign of the cross on our foreheads, our mouths and our hearts. We are asking God’s word to penetrate our minds, be on our lips, and fill our hearts. After the Gospel, the priest says, “The Word of the Lord!” as he holds the book aloft. We all respond, “Thanks be to God!” because we are so grateful to have His Word. The priest then gives a talk about the theme that unites the readings of the day.
Then there’s the Eucharist. It is glorious and a whole other world. I won’t even start on that here, with you. But someone who is full of hate and sarcasm and misinformation should go to a Catholic Mass and experience it. Just once. Otherwise all he is spouting is lies he learned from a “persuader” with a personal agenda.
Yes, I have, Melian. And, then watched as the friend who invited me to the superstitious cult-like rite got progressively more discouraged by the weekly revelations of these committed "priests" fiddling with little boys. He finally left the Catholic Church and now rejects all discussions about the matter. You guys really did a number on this fellow.
But, that is still just anectdotal. The real proof of the failure of this Roman monstrosity is it's own rejection of the Gospel of grace, set out by all the Apostles in their letters of the NT. It is this for which they ought to repent, if they can. Instead, they cling to their heretical self-aggrandizing man-made religion. Darkness awaits.
I’m sorry to hear about your friend. I am thinking that if he rejects all discussions about the matter, there is something else going on there. If he had left in disgust, wouldn’t he be happy to discuss everything that’s wrong with the Church with someone like you?
I rather think that he’d just prefer not to discuss the Church with you anymore. I can certainly understand that. He was surely embarrassed by those priestly pretenders, as all Catholics are, and I would venture to guess his nose was rubbed in it. Are you still friends?
I’m sorry that nothing I say here can alter the way you present your opinions. The Catholic Church lives the Gospel. Every word of it. No omissions. It is the light in the darkness and does not fear the darkness. There is quite a bit of Darkness in these posts, however.
The presentation I am making is not an opinion. The thing you ought to be sorry about, is that the RCC will not compare her cultish view with the Scriptures. That is what this thread was all about to begin with, but reread your posts and notice how they diverge from this topic. The Gospel of grace was presented by the Apostles and writers of the NT, but Rome has mangled this message to become its own self-serving, self-aggrandizing, story of Darkness. It has little time to repent, if it can.
I said I see I can’t alter the way you present your opinions. Check my post again. Once again, your response is jumbled, negative, and chaotic.
Hate, confusion, pridefulness, chaos, and lies are the signs of the devil’s work— and your responses.
Physician, heal thyself.
You are very perceptive.
Oh, and I forgot; you didn’t respond to this part of my post:
“I rather think that he’d just prefer not to discuss the Church with you anymore. I can certainly understand that. He was surely embarrassed by those priestly pretenders, as all Catholics are, and I would venture to guess his nose was rubbed in it. Are you still friends?”
I guess I can assume that poor man is no longer a friend. When he needed Christian love and support, he probably got something much less from his “friend.”
I repeat: Hate, confusion, pridefulness, chaos, and lies are the signs of the devil’s work— and your responses.
Physician, heal thyself.
Why, thank you, Petronski. I always read your posts with great interest.
I find his posts very persuasive...just not in the way that he intends.
Must be difficult to read plain English when Rome indoctrinates one to be a sheeple.
When I see some plain English, I’ll read it.
Incoherent invective is not plain English; nor is it “persuasive.” It has, however, been revealing. Four year olds who can’t formulate a winning argument resort to name calling. I guess all those persuasive Protestant persuaders locked in a multitude of little rooms arguing with each other for their private and personal interpretations of Scripture do too. What a mess.
Christ started a Church. He set up a methodical system to guide it and keep it faithful. The system Christ set up works beautifully. Nowhere in the early Church system Christ set up was there room for any personal interpretation. It was the Apostles’ way, Peter’s way, Rome’s way— or the highway. Paul’s letters to the early Christians implore them NOT to form their own interpretations of Christ’s message but to adhere to the teaching of the Apostles and Christ. He begged them to do it Rome’s way.
I am proud and happy to do it Rome’s way.
We are hoping that some of the wiser folks are permitted to leave the chains of that Roman cult. The rest will be left to the darkness. And, it will be the God of Heaven, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, managing those destinies, not the folks themselves.
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