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Lectionary Statistics - How much of the Bible is included in the Lectionary for Mass? (Popquiz!)
catholic-resources.org ^ | Updated on January 2, 2009 | Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D.

Posted on 11/01/2009 3:53:11 AM PST by GonzoII

THE ROMAN CATHOLIC LECTIONARY WEBSITE
by Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D.

Lectionary Statistics

How much of the Bible is included in the Lectionary for Mass?
Not as much as you might think, yet far more than was included in the Roman Missal before the Second Vatican Council!

The bishops assembled at Vatican II declared, "The treasures of the Bible are to be opened up more lavishly so that a richer fare may be provided for the faithful at the table of God's word. In this way the more significant part of the Sacred Scriptures will be read to the people over a fixed number of years" (Sacrosanctum Concilium, #51). As the following tables show, the current Lectionary for Mass does indeed offer a "richer fare" of biblical readings during the Eucharistic liturgy than was available before Vatican II. However, since many parts of the Bible (esp. the Old Testament) are still not included in the Lectionary, one must go beyond the readings used at Mass to cover the entire Bible.

The following tables compare the current edition of the Lectionary for Mass (1981 Latin, 1998/2002 USA editions)
with the pre-Vatican II Missale Romanum (substantially unchanged between 1570 and 1969, with a few modifications in 1951)
and the complete New American Bible (see the bottom of this page for a key to the column headings).

Readings from the Old Testament:

Before Vatican II, each Catholic Mass included only two biblical readings, which were normally referred to as "The Epistle" (since the first reading was almost always taken from one of the New Testament letters) and "The Gospel." Readings from the Old Testament were never used on Sundays, but only at the Easter Vigil, the Vigil of Pentecost, the feast of Epiphany and its octave, during Holy Week, and on some weekdays (esp. Ember days, weekdays of Lent, the feasts of some saints, and some votive Masses).

Since Vatican II, Masses on Sundays and major feast days include three biblical readings, the first of which is usually taken from the Old Testament (except during the Easter Season, when the first reading is from the Acts of the Apostles). The OT reading is normally very brief and thematically related to the Gospel reading of the day, so there is no detectable order or semi-continuous pattern from one Sunday to the next. Weekday Masses usually have only two readings, the first of which is taken from either the OT or the NT, according to a two-year weekday cycle.

OT Name of Book NAB Pre-Vatican II Missal:
Vigils & Feasts
Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Major Feasts
Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Weekdays
# Chap. # Vv. Total Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used
1 Genesis 50 1533 100** 6.5 % 138 9.0 % 428 27.9 %
2 Exodus 40 1213 28 2.3 % 112 9.2 % 208 17.1 %
3 Leviticus 27 859 0 0 % 9 1.0 % 42 4.9 %
4 Numbers 36 1289 0 0 % 11 0.9 % 81 6.3 %
5 Deuteronomy 34 959 9 0.9 % 52 5.4 % 106 11.1 %
6 Joshua 24 658 0 0 % 9 1.4 % 42 6.4 %
7 Judges 21 618 0 0 % 0 0 % 51 8.3 %
8 Ruth 4 85 0 0 % 0 0 % 21 24.7 %
9 1 Samuel 31 810 0 0 % 31 3.8 % 148 18.3 %
10 2 Samuel 24 695 0 0 % 19 2.7 % 110 15.8 %
11 1 Kings 22 817 0 0 % 37 4.5 % 166 20.3 %
12 2 Kings 25 719 0 0 % 14 1.9 % 100 13.9 %
13 1 Chronicles 29 943 0 0 % 0 0 % 0 0 %
14 2 Chronicles 36 821 0 0 % 8 1.0 % 17 2.1 %
15 Ezra 10 280 0 0 % 0 0 % 21 7.5 %
16 Nehemiah 13 405 0 0 % 8 2.0 % 19 4.7 %
17 Tobit 14 245 0 0 % 0 0 % 71 29.0 %
18 Judith 16 340 0 0 % 0 0 % 0 0 %
19 Esther 16 272 0 0 % 0 0 % 7 2.6 %
20 1 Maccabees 16 922 0 0 % 0 0 % 54 5.9 %
21 2 Maccabees 15 556 0 0 % 8 1.4 % 35 6.3 %
22* Job 42 1068 0 0 % 11 1.0 % 87 8.1 %
24* Proverbs 31 915 0 0 % 24 2.6 % 47 5.1 %
25 Ecclesiastes 12 222 0 0 % 4 1.8 % 34 15.3 %
26 Song of Solomon 8 117 0 0 % 0 0 % 7 6.0 %
27 Wisdom of Solomon 19 436 0 0 % 42 9.6 % 102 23.4 %
28 Sirach/Ecclesiasticus 51 1372 0 0 % 48 3.5 % 208 15.2 %
29 Isaiah 66 1291 24** 1.9 % 166 12.9 % 322 24.9 %
30 Jeremiah 52 1364 0 0 % 38 2.8 % 162 11.9 %
31 Lamentations 5 154 0 0 % 0 0 % 8 5.2 %
32 Baruch 6 213 30** 14.1 % 27 12.7 % 44 20.7 %
33 Ezekiel 48 1273 14** 1.1 % 48 3.8 % 180 14.1 %
34 Daniel 14 530 24** 4.5 % 5 0.9 % 178 33.6 %
35 Hosea 14 197 16 8.1 % 11 5.6 % 38 19.3 %
36 Joel 4 73 0 0 % 5 6.8 % 27 37.0 %
37 Amos 9 146 0 0 % 13 8.9 % 51 34.9 %
38 Obadiah 1 21 0 0 % 0 0 % 0 0 %
39 Jonah 4 48 10** 20.8 % 6 12.5 % 39 81.3 %
40 Micah 7 105 0 0 % 4 3.8 % 24 22.9 %
41 Nahum 3 47 0 0 % 0 0 % 8 17.0 %
42 Habakkuk 3 56 0 0 % 5 8.9 % 12 21.4 %
43 Zephaniah 3 53 0 0 % 8 15.1 % 13 24.5 %
44 Haggai 2 38 0 0 % 0 0 % 18 47.4 %
45 Zechariah 14 211 0 0 % 5 2.4 % 24 11.4 %
46 Malachi 3 55 0 0 % 6 10.9 % 18 32.7 %

* Note 1: The above table does not include the Psalms, since they are used so often in various ways during the Mass.
** Note 2: The 1951 revision of the Roman Missal reduced the number of OT readings at the Easter Vigil from twelve to four,
and omitted all six OT readings from the Pentecost Vigil, thereby further reducing the total amount of the OT read before Vatican II;
remaining were only 33 verses of Genesis, 28 of Exodus, 9 of Deuteronomy, 12 of Isaiah and 16 of Hosea. For details, see the Roman Missal page.

OT Summary:

OT Section NAB Pre-Vatican II Missal:
Vigils & Feasts
Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Major Feasts
Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Weekdays
# Chap. # Vv. Total Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used
Torah/Law 187 5853 137 2.3 % 322 5.5 % 865 14.8 %
Historical Books 316 9186 0 0 % 134 1.5 % 862 9.4 %
Wisdom Books (w/o Psalms) 163 4130 0 0 % 129 3.1 % 485 11.7 %
Four Major Prophets 191 4825 92 1.9 % 284 5.9 % 894 18.5 %
Twelve Minor Prophets 67 1050 26 2.5 % 63 6.0 % 272 25.9 %
OT Total (w/o Psalms) 924 25044 255 1.0 % 932 3.7 % 3378 13.5 %
Note 3: The 1951 revision of the pre-Vatican II Roman Missal (see note 2 above) reduced the total to only
98 verses or 0.39% of the Old Testament (aside from the Psalms) read at Vigils and major feast days.

Readings from the New Testament:

Before Vatican II, the same readings were used each year for the various Masses in the Roman Missal. The first reading was usually from one of Paul's Letters or the Catholic Epistles. The Gospel readings were most often taken from Matthew or John, less frequently from Luke, and only rarely from Mark.

Since Vatican II, much more of the New Testament is included in the Lectionary for Mass. The Acts of the Apostles is used as the first reading on the Sundays and weekdays during the Easter season. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke are read semi-continuously on the Sundays of Ordinary Time on a three-year cycle, while passages from the Gospel of John are used mostly during the seasons of Lent and Easter and on several major feast days. Excerpts from all other NT books and letters are used as the second reading at Masses on Sundays and major feasts according to a three-year cycle, and/or weekday Masses on a two-year cycle. (Click on any of the previous underlined links for more details.)

NT Name of Book NAB Pre-Vatican II Missal:
Sundays & Major Feasts
Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Major Feasts
Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Weekdays
# Chap. # Vv. Total Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used
1 Matthew 28 1071 373 34.8 % 594 55.5 % 916 85.5 %
2 Mark 16 678 30 3.4 % 414 61.1 % 653 96.3 %
3 Luke 24 1151 188 16.3 % 650 56.5 % 1011 87.8 %
4 John 21 879 256 30.0 % 526 59.8 % 813 92.5 %
5 Acts 28 1007 35 3.5 % 165 16.4 % 492 48.9 %
6 Romans 16 433 69 15.9 % 117 27.0 % 228 52.7 %
7 1 Corinthians 16 437 75 17.2 % 162 37.1 % 244 55.8 %
8 2 Corinthians 13 256 40 15.6 % 48 18.8 % 123 48.0 %
9 Galatians 6 149 45 30.2 % 47 31.5 % 90 60.4 %
10 Ephesians 6 155 57 36.8 % 96 61.9 % 141 91.0 %
11 Philippians 4 104 25 24.0 % 47 45.2 % 73 70.2 %
12 Colossians 4 95 16 16.8 % 35 36.8 % 62 65.3 %
13 1 Thessalonians 5 89 16 18.0 % 39 43.8 % 69 77.5 %
14 2 Thessalonians 3 47 0 0.0 % 17 36.2 % 28 59.6 %
15 1 Timothy 6 113 0 0.0 % 20 17.7 % 51 45.1 %
16 2 Timothy 4 83 0 0.0 % 25 30.1 % 39 47.0 %
17 Titus 3 46 9 19.6 % 8 17.4 % 28 60.9 %
18 Philemon 1 25 0 0.0 % 8 32.0 % 19 76.0 %
19 Hebrews 13 303 17 5.6 % 84 27.7 % 188 62.0 %
20 James 5 108 11 10.2 % 31 28.7 % 99 91.7 %
21 1 Peter 5 105 33 31.4 % 36 34.3 % 57 54.3 %
22 2 Peter 3 61 0 0.0 % 7 11.5 % 15 24.6 %
23 1 John 5 105 13 12.4 % 33 31.4 % 95 100.0 %
24 2 John 1 13 0 0.0 % 0 0.0 % 6 46.2 %
25 3 John 1 15 0 0.0 % 0 0.0 % 4 26.7 %
26 Jude 1 25 0 0.0 % 0 0.0 % 6 24.0 %
27 Revelation 22 404 0 0.0 % 38 9.4 % 129 31.9 %

NT Summary:

NT Section NAB Pre-Vatican II Missal:
Sundays & Major Feasts
Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Major Feasts

Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Weekdays

# Chap. # Vv. Total Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used
Gospels (4) 89 3779 848 22.4 % 2184 57.8 % 3393 89.8 %
Acts 28 1007 35 3.5 % 165 16.4 % 492 48.9 %
Pauline Letters (7) 61 1493 270 18.1 % 468 31.3 % 846 56.7 %
Deutero-Paulines (6) 26 539 82 15.2 % 201 37.3 % 349 64.7 %
Hebrews 13 303 17 5.6 % 84 27.6 % 188 62.0 %
Catholic Epistles (7) 21 432 57 13.2 % 107 24.7 % 292 67.6 %
Book of Revelation 22 404 0 0 % 38 9.4 % 129 31.9 %
NT w/o Gospels 171 4178 461 11.0 % 1063 25.4 % 2296 54.9 %
NT Grand Total 260 7957 1309 16.5 % 3247 40.8 % 5689 71.5 %

Key to the Column Headings:

Main Lectionary Page 1998/2002 USA Edition 1992 Canadian Edition
Links to Other Websites 1970 USA Edition Roman Missal (Pre-Vatican II)


Return to the HOME PAGE of Felix Just, S.J.
This page was last updated on January 2, 2009.
web version copyright © 1999--2006



TOPICS: Catholic; General Discusssion; Worship
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; liturgy; scripture
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Not quite the whole Bible in three years but still a lot of Scripture for a daily Mass attendant.
1 posted on 11/01/2009 3:53:12 AM PST by GonzoII
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To: Alex Murphy

Okay Murphy, here are the Stats...


2 posted on 11/01/2009 3:58:34 AM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII

Any way you cut it, just going to Mass will NOT give a functional knowledge of Scripture.


3 posted on 11/01/2009 4:07:54 AM PST by papertyger (A difference that makes no difference is no difference)
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To: papertyger
"Any way you cut it, just going to Mass will NOT give a functional knowledge of Scripture."

I don't think it is meant to, one needs to do the homework also.

4 posted on 11/01/2009 4:14:30 AM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII

Totally cool post. Thanks!


5 posted on 11/01/2009 4:36:56 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin: pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: papertyger
Absolutely. It WILL, however, help us with the right disposition, with infused graces, etc. etc. so that we wilklbe more moved to study and our ears will be all the more open to hear the Word.

And, on a more mundane level, with Mass and office, one finds that especially the psalms but also paragraphs from Scripture have burrowed into our hearts ....

6 posted on 11/01/2009 4:41:11 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin: pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg
"Totally cool post. Thanks!"

No problem Dude! Ehemmm...

7 posted on 11/01/2009 4:44:50 AM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII

Nothing from 1 Chronicles, Judith or Obadiah?

Sad.

How could anyone pass up Judith 13 (especially these days)?


8 posted on 11/01/2009 4:49:56 AM PST by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
"How could anyone pass up Judith 13 (especially these days)? "

Here's some "Liturgical Inovation" for "All Saints Day"

Douay Rheims Bible

Judith 12

The Book of Judith

Return to Index

Chapter 13

1

And when it was grown late, his servants made haste to their lodgings, and Vagao shut the chamber doors, and went his way.

2

And they were all overcharged with wine.

3

And Judith was alone in the chamber.

4

But Holofernes lay on his bed, fast asleep, being exceedingly drunk.

5

And Judith spoke to her maid to stand without before the chamber, and to watch:

6

And Judith stood before the bed praying with tears, and the motion of her lips in silence,

7

Saying: Strengthen me, O Lord God of Israel, and in this hour look on the works of my hands, that as thou hast promised, thou mayst raise up Jerusalem thy city: and that I may bring to pass that which I have purposed, having a belief that it might be done by thee.

8

And when she had said this, she went to the pillar that was at his bed's head, and loosed his sword that hung tied upon it.

9

And when she had drawn it out, she took him by the hair of his head, and said: Strengthen me, O Lord God, at this hour.

10

And she struck twice upon his neck, and out off his head, and took off his canopy from the pillars, and rolled away his headless body.

11

And after a while she went out, and delivered the head of Holofernes to her maid, and bade her put it into her wallet.

12

And they two went out according to their custom, as it were to prayer, and they passed the camp, and having compassed the valley, they came to the gate of the city.

13

And Judith from afar off cried to the watchmen upon the walls: Open the gates for God is with us, who hath shewn his power in Israel.

14

And it came to pass, when the men had heard her voice, that they called the ancients of the city.

15

And all ran to meet her from the least to the greatest: for they now had no hopes that she would come.

16

And lighting up lights they all gathered round about her: and she went up to a higher place, and commanded silence to be made. And when all had held their peace,

17

Judith said: Praise ye the Lord our God, who hath not forsaken them that hope in him.

18

And by me his handmaid he hath fulfilled his mercy, which he promised to the house of Israel: and he hath killed the enemy of his people by my hand this night.

19

Then she brought forth the head of Holofernes out of the wallet, and shewed it them, saying: Behold the head of Holofernes the general of the army of the Assyrians, and behold his canopy, wherein he lay in his drunkenness, where the Lord our God slew him by the hand of a woman.

20

But as the same Lord liveth, his angel hath been my keeper both going hence, and abiding there, and returning from thence hither: and the Lord hath not suffered me his handmaid to be defiled, but hath brought me back to you without pollution of sin, rejoicing for his victory, for my escape, and for your deliverance.

21

Give all of you glory to him, because he is good, because his mercy endureth for ever.

22

And they all adored the Lord, and said to her: The Lord hath blessed thee by his power, because by thee he hath brought our enemies to nought.

23

And Ozias the prince of the people of Israel, said to her: Blessed art thou, O daughter, by the Lord the most high God, above all women upon the earth.

24

Blessed be the Lord who made heaven and earth, who hath directed thee to the cutting off the head of the prince of our enemies.

25

Because he hath so magnified thy name this day, that thy praise shall not depart out of the mouth of men who shall be mindful of the power of the Lord for ever, for that thou hast not spared thy life, by reason of the distress and tribulation of thy people, but hast prevented our ruin in the presence of our God.

26

And all the people said: So be it, so be it.

27

And Achior being called for came, and Judith said to him: The God of Israel, to whom thou gavest testimony, that he revengeth himself of his enemies, he hath cut off the head of all the unbelievers this night by my hand.

28

And that thou mayst find that it is so, behold the head of Holofernes, who in the contempt of his pride despised the God of Israel: and threatened thee with death, saying: When the people of Israel shall be taken, I will command thy sides to be pierced with a sword.

29

Then Achior seeing the head of Holofernes, being seized with a great fear he fell on his face upon the earth, and his soul swooned away.

30

But after he had recovered his spirits he fell down at her feet, and reverenced her and said:

31

Blessed art thou by thy God in every tabernacle of Jacob, for in every nation which shall hear thy name, the God of Israel shall be magnified on occasion of thee.

Judith 14

 

 

 

HTMLBible Software - Public Domain Software by johnhurt.com


9 posted on 11/01/2009 5:08:32 AM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: Mad Dawg
It WILL, however, help us with the right disposition, with infused graces, etc. etc...

I am utterly convinced this is a crucial truth!

No Catholic should ever leave for a "Bible Church" without consulting a scripturally literate, non-clerical, Catholic. Using the scripture to challenge the authority of the Catholic Church is ALWAYS a case of "a 'little knowledge' can be dangerous."

"Passing judgement" on the Catholic Church using the Bible is as supercilious and naive as "correcting" great literature using a grammar text.

10 posted on 11/01/2009 5:26:14 AM PST by papertyger (A difference that makes no difference is no difference)
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To: GonzoII; Alex Murphy

This drastically understates the coverage of the New Testament in the bible by the mass, because it doesn’t take into account parallel readings. I did a similar study myself, and found that there were only a handful of gospel verses not used in obligatory masses.

Also, it should be noted that those verses which are cited by the New Testament, as well as the context surrounding them, are the portions of the Old Testament used by the New Testament. A well-crafted homily should explore how the New Testament fulfills the selected Old Testament verses, examine the moral doctrine espoused, and provide some guidance in applying it to our lives. Unfortunately, there is a crisis of poorly-crafted homilies in the modern church.

I would be extremely cautious of declaring that the Mass has covers the bible insufficiently. For hundreds of years after Christ, the canon of the bible was simply those books were used in mass. Given that most Christians were illiterate, and that bibles typically cost several years’ wages (picture a two-hundred thousand dollar bible to compare that to modern times!), ancient Christians laymen’s exposure to the bible consisted largely of what they heard in masses. Even priests often could privately access only a “breviary,” which consisted of the gospels, letters, and Old Testament canticles (by which was meant the prayers and songs of the Old Testament, including the Psalms). (They certainly had access to a full bible during their studies.) Yet, I’m sure we should literally be put to shame by their piety.

On the other hand, Satan had not so thoroughly corrupted supposedly Christian society. Christians today require both a childlike faith but also a wisdom of understanding of theologians. So the Catholic Church was quite correct in joining Protestant churches to insist that Christians indepenedently read of the scripture daily.


11 posted on 11/01/2009 6:33:10 AM PST by dangus (Nah, I'm not really Jim Thompson, but I play him on FR.)
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To: GonzoII; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment

Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”

12 posted on 11/01/2009 6:40:46 AM PST by narses ("These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own.")
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To: dangus
What do you mean by "parallel readings"?

I'm counting the First Reading, Psalms, Second Reading, and Gospel for Sundays in these Stats...

13 posted on 11/01/2009 6:50:13 AM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII; narses; Salamander; Markos33

This is not meant to be combative - simply my honest reaction/observation.

If the Church is including so much in the lectionary, what would be wrong with reading the entire Bible, beginning to end, and putting each reading in context?

Or is there some mystical significance to the jumbled order and selective readings?

That’s not to say you couldn’t read special passages on special days, like Christmas, Good Friday or Easter Sunday. Just that the entire text should be understood by the whole of Christ’s Church.


14 posted on 11/01/2009 6:51:24 AM PST by shibumi (" ..... then we will fight in the shade.")
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To: GonzoII

And if you add in the readings from the Liturgy of the Hours, the percentage gets even higher...


15 posted on 11/01/2009 7:00:52 AM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: shibumi

Honestly, come and listen. Find out that the texts relate to each other and to the liturgical season - Christmastide, Eastertide, etc.

In addition, the homily, when done correctly, ought to knit the readings together and explore and explain the Faith. (Not all homilists are created equal, some do a wonderful job, others less so.)

What most protestant brethren fail to understand is the nature of the Mass, it is a prayer service, yes - it is also much more, it is the Sacrifice at Calvary made Real all over again. Our Lord becomes Present, Body and Blood, in the highest form of Worship. In most protestant forms, the highest form of worship is prayer, in the Holy Mass the Ultimate Sacrifice is made real again and again and those of us in a State of Grace partake of His Flesh and Blood as He commanded.


16 posted on 11/01/2009 7:01:30 AM PST by narses ("These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own.")
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To: shibumi
"what would be wrong with reading the entire Bible, beginning to end, and putting each reading in context?"

The Church could certainly do that, but she follows the Life of Christ and desires us to do the same throughout the year in the Readings.

For example the Season of Advent is about to begin, so no surprise that the readings will center around the coming of and birth of Christ, and then comes Lent and the readings will center around the Passion and death of Christ and so forth.

Notice the idea of expection and preperation in some of these following passages that are for the first Sunday of Advent (which means a coming or arrival), they prepare us for Christmas and the coming of Christ; see also "Rationale" at bottom:

The Roman Catholic Lectionary for Mass (1998 USA Edition)
tables compiled by Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D.

Readings for the Sundays of Advent

NOTE: The new "Liturgical Year"always begins on the First Sunday of Advent, not on Jan. 1:

Advent 2007 was part of the 2008 liturgical year (Sunday Cycle A), which began on December 2, 2007;
Advent 2008 was part of the 2009 liturgical year (Sunday Cycle B), which began on November 30, 2008;

Advent 2009 will be part of the 2010 liturgical year (Sunday Cycle C), beginning on November 29, 2009.

See the Calendar of Lectionary Cycles and Movable Liturgical Feasts for other years.

# Sunday First Reading Responsorial Psalm Second Reading Alleluia Verse Gospel
1 1st Sunday of Advent - A Isa 2:1-5 Ps 122:1-2, 3-4a, 4b-5, 6-7, 8-9 Rom 13:11-14 Ps 85:8 Matt 24:37-44
4 2nd Sunday of Advent - A Isa 11:1-10 Ps 72:1-2, 7-8, 12-13, 17 Rom 15:4-9 Luke 3:4+6 Matt 3:1-12
7 3rd Sunday of Advent - A Isa 35:1-6a, 10 Ps 146:6c-7, 8-9a, 9b-10 Jas 5:7-10 Isa 61:1 (cited in Lk 4:18) Matt 11:2-11
10 4th Sunday of Advent - A Isa 7:10-14 Ps 24:1-2, 3-4, 5-6 Rom 1:1-7 Matt 1:23 Matt 1:18-24
2 1st Sunday of Advent - B Isa 63:16b-17, 19b; 64:2-7 Ps 80:2-3, 15-16, 18-19 1 Cor 1:3-9 Ps 85:8 Mark 13:33-37
5 2nd Sunday of Advent - B Isa 40:1-5, 9-11 Ps 85:9ab+10, 11-12, 13-14 2 Pet 3:8-14 Luke 3:4+6 Mark 1:1-8
8 3rd Sunday of Advent - B Isa 61:1-2a, 10-11 Luke 1:46-48, 49-50, 53-54 1 Thess 5:16-24 Isa 61:1 (cited in Lk 4:18) John 1:6-8, 19-28
11 4th Sunday of Advent - B 2 Sam 7:1-5, 8b-12, 14a, 16 (diff) Ps 89:2-3, 4-5, 27+29 Rom 16:25-27 Luke 1:38 Luke 1:26-38
3 1st Sunday of Advent - C Jer 33:14-16 Ps 25:4-5, 8-9, 10+14 1 Thess 3:12–4:2 Ps 85:8 Luke 21:25-28, 34-36
6 2nd Sunday of Advent - C Bar 5:1-9 Ps 126:1-2a, 2b-3, 4-5, 6 Phil 1:4-6, 8-11 Luke 3:4+6 Luke 3:1-6
9 3rd Sunday of Advent - C Zeph 3:14-18a Isa 12:2-3, 4bcd, 5-6 Phil 4:4-7 Isa 61:1 (cited in Lk 4:18) Luke 3:10-18
12 4th Sunday of Advent - C Mic 5:1-4a Ps 80:2-3, 15-16, 18-19 Heb 10:5-10 Luke 1:38 Luke 1:39-45

Notes:


Rationale: The "General Introduction to the Lectionary" (Second Edition, 1981) briefly explains the rationale for the reading choices for the Sundays of Advent:

"Each Gospel reading has a distinctive theme: the Lord's coming at the end of time (First Sunday of Advent), John the Baptist (Second and Third Sunday), and the events that prepared immediately for the Lord's birth (Fourth Sunday). The Old Testament readings are prophecies about the Messiah and the Messianic age, especially from the Book of Isaiah. The readings from an Apostle contain exhortations and proclamations, in keeping with the different themes of Advent." (Lectionary for Mass, "Introduction," chap. 5, par. 93)



17 posted on 11/01/2009 7:14:07 AM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: markomalley
"And if you add in the readings from the Liturgy of the Hours, the percentage gets even higher..."

I wish I had the time to read the Liturgy of the Hours, I try to get the Psalms in as much as possible.

18 posted on 11/01/2009 7:23:45 AM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII

I may not be seeing it, but is the three-year cycle for the Old Testament included in the OT numbers.

Great find, BTW.


19 posted on 11/01/2009 7:33:38 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: dangus

**A well-crafted homily should explore how the New Testament fulfills the selected Old Testament verses, examine the moral doctrine espoused, and provide some guidance in applying it to our lives. Unfortunately, there is a crisis of poorly-crafted homilies in the modern church.**

Perhaps I am fortunate, but my priest pulls on the typology between the First Reading and the Gospel all the time. He also realtes it to our present days lives and puts it back into our hands with a poignant question at the end of each homily. (Some are totally teaching ones, of course,) He just did a complete sermon on the vesting of a priest for Mass and all the prayers that are said. It was great!


20 posted on 11/01/2009 7:39:45 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: GonzoII
Here's an example of parallel readings with these reflections on the Luminous Mysteries of the Rosary.

The Luminous Mysteries or Mysteries of Light
(Thursdays) see Rosarium Virginis Mariae
1. Jesus' Baptism in the Jordan (II Corinthians 5:21, Matthew 3:17 and parallels) [Spiritual fruit - Gratitude for the gift of Faith]
2. Jesus' self-manifestation at the wedding of Cana (John 2:1- 12) [Spiritual fruit - Fidelity]
3. Jesus' proclamation of the Kingdom of God, with His call to conversion (Mark 1:15, Mark 2:3-13; Luke 7:47- 48, John 20:22-23) [Spiritual fruit - Desire for Holiness]
4. Jesus' Transfiguration (Luke 9:35 and parallels) [Spiritual fruit - Spiritual Courage]
5. Jesus' institution of the Eucharist, as the sacramental expression of the Paschal Mystery. (Luke 24:13-35 and parallels, 1 Corinthians 11:24-25) [Spiritual fruit - Love of our Eucharistic Lord]

21 posted on 11/01/2009 7:41:36 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: GonzoII
Another source of Liturgical Calendar, etc.

The Liturgical Calendar

Liturgical Calendar 2009 (Dec 2008 through Nov 2009)
November 30, 2008 is the first Sunday of Advent

Liturgical Calendar 2010 (Dec 2009 through Nov 2010)
November 29, 2009 is the first Sunday of Advent

Liturgical Calendar 2011 (Dec 2010 through Nov 2011)
November 28, 2010 is the first Sunday of Advent

The Liturgical Year begins with the First Sunday of Advent
List of Seasons with links


22 posted on 11/01/2009 7:46:35 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: GonzoII

http://www.universalis.com

They also have the major hours accessible by smartphone. Only takes about 15 minutes each for the morning and evening; maybe 20 minutes for the Office of Readings (which can be done at any time).


23 posted on 11/01/2009 7:48:47 AM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: narses; shibumi

You have *no* idea who you’re dealing with, regarding matters of liturgy, exegesis and theology.

Retreat honorably.

*Now*.

:)


24 posted on 11/01/2009 7:59:29 AM PST by Salamander (I'm sure I need some rest but sleepin' don't come very easd the matriy in a straight white vest.....)
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To: Salvation
"I may not be seeing it, but is the three-year cycle for the Old Testament included in the OT numbers."

It seems the first table is following a Two Year Cycle....

25 posted on 11/01/2009 8:07:39 AM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII
Okay Murphy, here are the Stats...

Ping greatly appreciated!

26 posted on 11/01/2009 8:23:27 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him" - Job 13:15)
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To: papertyger
Any way you cut it, just going to Mass will NOT give a functional knowledge of Scripture.

Baloney.

27 posted on 11/01/2009 8:25:14 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: papertyger

” Using the scripture to challenge the authority of the Catholic Church is ALWAYS a case of “a ‘little knowledge’ can be dangerous.”

“Passing judgement” on the Catholic Church using the Bible is as supercilious and naive as “correcting” great literature using a grammar text.”

If one grants the Magisterium the authority to add teachings based on ‘Sacred Tradition’, which does NOT mean traditions passed down verbally from the Apostles, then your statement is correct.

I guess it is up to one’s tolerance for innovation to decide if Purgatory, or Priests offering sacrifice is too great an innovation to be true. If one accepts continuous revelation (continuous clarification????), then Catholic doctrine may be true. If one believes the Apostles knew all the truth that was needed for salvation and holy living, then Catholic doctrine is not.


28 posted on 11/01/2009 8:47:26 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: GonzoII; Mad Dawg; dangus
I'm reading complaints that the below numbers don't include verses read in "parallel readings" or the "Liturgy of the Hours", but honestly they would have to comprise considerable amount of reading to significantly impact the below numbers. Also, I'm still fuzzy on how many Masses/services a parishioner has to attend, each day, in order to reach these percentages. It would be interesting to see what percentage is covered when the parishioner faithfully attends just a single Sunday Mass over the 2/3 year reading cycle.

Percentage read, the 39 Books of the Old Testament [Excluding the Psalms]:
10% or more OT: 28 books (4 Apocrypha)
20% or more OT: 16 books (3 Apocrypha)
30% or more OT: 6 books (0 Apocrypha)
40% or more OT: 2 books (0 Apocrypha)
80% or more OT: 1 book (0 Apocrypha)

Percentage read, the 27 Books of the New Testament:
20% or more NT: 27 books
30% or more NT: 24 books
40% or more NT: 23 books
50% or more NT: 18 books
60% or more NT: 14 books
70% or more NT: 10 books
80% or more NT: 7 books
90% or more NT: 5 books
100% of the NT: 1 book

Reproducing the summary charts from the article:

OT Summary:

OT Section NAB Pre-Vatican II Missal:
Vigils & Feasts
Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Major Feasts
Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Weekdays
# Chap. # Vv. Total Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used
Torah/Law 187 5853 137 2.3 % 322 5.5 % 865 14.8 %
Historical Books 316 9186 0 0 % 134 1.5 % 862 9.4 %
Wisdom Books (w/o Psalms) 163 4130 0 0 % 129 3.1 % 485 11.7 %
Four Major Prophets 191 4825 92 1.9 % 284 5.9 % 894 18.5 %
Twelve Minor Prophets 67 1050 26 2.5 % 63 6.0 % 272 25.9 %
OT Total (w/o Psalms) 924 25044 255 1.0 % 932 3.7 % 3378 13.5 %

NT Summary:

NT Section NAB Pre-Vatican II Missal:
Sundays & Major Feasts
Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Major Feasts

Current Lectionary:
Sundays & Weekdays

# Chap. # Vv. Total Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used Vv. Used % Used
Gospels (4) 89 3779 848 22.4 % 2184 57.8 % 3393 89.8 %
Acts 28 1007 35 3.5 % 165 16.4 % 492 48.9 %
Pauline Letters (7) 61 1493 270 18.1 % 468 31.3 % 846 56.7 %
Deutero-Paulines (6) 26 539 82 15.2 % 201 37.3 % 349 64.7 %
Hebrews 13 303 17 5.6 % 84 27.6 % 188 62.0 %
Catholic Epistles (7) 21 432 57 13.2 % 107 24.7 % 292 67.6 %
Book of Revelation 22 404 0 0 % 38 9.4 % 129 31.9 %
NT w/o Gospels 171 4178 461 11.0 % 1063 25.4 % 2296 54.9 %
NT Grand Total 260 7957 1309 16.5 % 3247 40.8 % 5689 71.5 %

29 posted on 11/01/2009 9:36:28 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him" - Job 13:15)
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To: Petronski
Baloney.

Wow, you've always been succinct, but that's a little TOO brief ;o)

30 posted on 11/01/2009 9:40:33 AM PST by papertyger
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To: Mr Rogers
If one believes the Apostles knew all the truth that was needed for salvation and holy living...

one would STILL need a mechanism to perform the same function as the Magisterium, without which the concept of heresy becomes meaningless.

31 posted on 11/01/2009 9:57:49 AM PST by papertyger
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To: GonzoII

Get a “Shorter Christian Prayer” (No, really, it doesn’t matter how tall you are) and keep it handy. If you just give yourself the assignment of reading the Morning and Evening Psalms and Canticles you’ll be doing a fine thing. The rest will come easily at its own time.


32 posted on 11/01/2009 10:32:54 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin: pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: GonzoII

At the risk of saying what everybody already knows, the Sunday Mass Lectionary is a 3 year cycle, while the weekday Mass Lectionary is a two year cycle.


33 posted on 11/01/2009 10:36:47 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin: pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mr Rogers
"I guess it is up to one’s tolerance for innovation to decide if Purgatory"

Q. If Purgatory is and innovation of the Catholic Church how is it that the Jews, prior to Christ and the establishment of the Catholic Church, taught that one should pray for the dead.

I cite the historical book of 2-Maccabees Ch. 12 for evidence:

"39 And upon the day following, as the practice had been, Judas and his company came to take up the bodies of those who were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen in their fathers' graves. 40 Now under the coats of every one who was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause for which they were slain. 41 All men therefore, praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid, 42 resorted unto prayer and besought Him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, inasmuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those who were slain. 43 And when he had taken a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachmas of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honorably, in that he was mindful of the resurrection. 44 (For if he had not hoped that those who were slain should have risen again, it would have been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead.) 45 And also in that he perceived that there was great favor laid up for those who died godly, it was a holy and good thought. Thereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin. " Third Millennium Bible

34 posted on 11/01/2009 10:45:58 AM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: Mad Dawg

If you just give yourself the assignment of reading the Morning and Evening Psalms and Canticles you’ll be doing a fine thing.


That’s what I attempt to do, but my goal is to move on up to as much of the Breviary as possible as it is powerful prayer and I would liked to get schooled by the office of readings.

Thanks for the tip.


35 posted on 11/01/2009 10:52:07 AM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII

Did the Jews accept 2 Maccabees as scripture? Nope.

Can one pay cash for forgiveness of sins? Nope, for we read, “Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.”

And now?

“24For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.”

Of course, you can assume the payment made was for a blood offering that would make everything OK, but the whole scene of Jesus cleansing the Temple kinda puts a damper on that, too. Although I have no doubt that at one time, that passage was used to show paying for an indulgence was OK...

The real problem with Purgatory is not that it relies on a verse (or maybe 3) in the Apocryphal books to set up such a sweeping doctrine, but that it contradicts the finished work of Jesus Christ. Justification, in the New Testament, after the resurrection of Jesus, is spoken of in the past tense.

“And every [Jewish] priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected [past tense] for all time [not just the moment] those who are being sanctified.

And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”

then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.”

So NO! There is no cash payment, no good-deed doing, NOTHING left to do to secure our forgiveness of sin. Nothing but to believe in Jesus, for “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already”.

“Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.” — Hebrews 10

No penance you do will win you merit with God, nor can any Mass performed or gift given to the Church win you merit with God. JESUS provides the merit to those who believe. And God says, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

Perhaps because I’m the father of two adopted kids, I would paraphrase Heb 10:14 as “For by a single offering he has adopted for all time those who are being made part of his family”. The kids I adopted couldn’t speak a word of English when I adopted them. They took a long time to start to act like their parents...but the adoption was once, for all time.

It is finished!


36 posted on 11/01/2009 11:09:01 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: papertyger

“...one would STILL need a mechanism to perform the same function as the Magisterium, without which the concept of heresy becomes meaningless.”

That is the role of elders in the church. Matt 18 covers unrepentant sin, and heresy would be a part of that:

15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

It is also an individual responsibility:

“For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.” - 2 John

Notice: “Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.”

It would be hard to abide in teaching not yet received...


37 posted on 11/01/2009 11:20:09 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mad Dawg; All

I came across this quote, supposedly from Pope Jean Paul II on 6 Dec 2000:

“All who live a just life will be saved even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church. The gospel teaches us, those who live in accordance with the beatitudes, the poor in spirit, the pure of heart, those who bear lovingly the sufferings of life, will enter God’s kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and his Church, contribute under the influence of grace to the building of this Kingdom.”

Did he really say that? If so, does anyone know the context?


38 posted on 11/01/2009 11:24:51 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers
I don't know.

But I think it reflects his vision of a merciful God.

39 posted on 11/01/2009 11:29:28 AM PST by starlifter (Sapor Amo Pullus)
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To: Mr Rogers
"Did the Jews accept 2 Maccabees as scripture? Nope."

We are discussing 2 Maccabees as an authentic historical document, which it is. Now how is it that the Jews thought it a good thing to pray for the dead?

40 posted on 11/01/2009 11:31:12 AM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: Mr Rogers
Maybe I'll address this in a rational manner tomorrow (which, after all, is when we pray for the souls in Purgatory --- not that we don't at other times, but Catholics are weird) but we are SO not communicating on this!

Yes. We're hip. At least I am. We are forgiven. Purgatory doesn't get us forgiveness. It couldn't. Forgiveness can't be "gotten" it's a free gift of God in Christ Jesus (Insert Alleluia here.)(Insert another Alleluia.)(Oh, go ahead, insert another Alleuia -- if you can't be happy about this, you're hopeless.)

The souls in Prugatory know they're forgiven and they rejoice. That's why Dante's Purgatory is such a lovely and happy poem -- he's presenting a lovely and happy doctrine. (Don't believe what you read in the funny papers. Don't e ven believe a fair amount of Catholic sermons. YES it would be WAY better not to go to Purqatory, as going straight to the banana split made with Haagen Daz and homemade hot fudge sauce beats having to eat our vegetables first. But if, as I hope, one day I find myself in Purgatory my first word will be "Alleluia!"

I promise I'll work some more on the eternity thing and on the Purgatory thing. There's got to be a way, not persuade, but to make contact on this.

This post is just an exuberant place holder. Serious thought (maybe -- to the extent, if any, that I am capable of thought) will come later.

41 posted on 11/01/2009 11:38:22 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin: pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: papertyger

From a sermon by John MacArthur:

So that is the principle of looking for the truth. And when you meet someone who has perverted it, deviated from it, added to it, gone beyond it, act wisely...act wisely. And how would you act wisely? Verse 10, “If anyone comes to you,” and they did, this is A with the indicative, a likely condition. It probably happened to this lady, as I’ve said, as to many through the centuries and many even today, and even us as they’ve kind of come into our house through the television and radio and whatever, and sometimes even knocking on the door. “If anyone comes to you and does not bear this teaching....what teaching?...the teaching of Christ, that is about Him by Him, do not receive him into your house.” This is not someone coming to learn from you or you’d never be able to witness to an unbeliever. This is someone coming to teach you lies. Understand the difference? We answer the questions of the ignorant. We answer the questions of those who want to know. We don’t affirm or give a platform to the deceivers. The fastest way to put them out of business is to make sure that you never receive them. If anyone comes to you, I’m not talking about someone ignorant who wants to understand the truth. We’re talking about an apostate lying deceiver looking for a foothold embedded in the fellowship of believers to make money off the unsuspecting while he plies his evil lies. Don’t receive him into your house.

He could have said, “Don’t receive him in your church.” That’s true, but then churches were not the first place they would go. Why? Because churches were protected by what group of men? Elders. And what...what was necessary to be an elder? First Timothy 3, they had to be...end of verse 2...didaktikos, skilled teachers. So you wouldn’t expect a false teacher just to invade a church. He’s not going to get in here. We have elders who are skilled teachers. Titus 1:9, “Elders are able to hold fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the doctrine and are able both to exhort in sound doctrine and refute those who contradict.” And they can handle the rebellious men, the empty talkers, and deceivers. That’s what elders and pastors do. So they don’t come to the church. That’s where they ultimately end up, that’s where they’d like to end up. They don’t come there first, they go to the home. They want to get you on your front porch. They want to get you through the television or the radio. They want to find their way to those who are vulnerable. In 2 Timothy 3 and verse 5 it says, “These false teachers have a form of godliness without power.” And verse 6 says, “They enter into households and they captivate weak women.” Hmmm, that’s what they do. They look for the weak and the sympathetic and tender hearted and compassionate and embed themselves there and start their divesting of those people’s resources and the confusion of their minds. Don’t let them in your house. “Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly.” And this doesn’t apply to new Christians, or those who seek a full knowledge of Christ. These people are not learners, they are...what?...teachers, the emissaries of deception.

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/63-4


42 posted on 11/01/2009 11:40:34 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers
(continuous clarification????)

We usually say "development" as in "unfolding", but clarification will do.

And just for thoroughness, the sacrifice offered by priests is, in our view, nothing other than the sacrifice by Christ of Christ. It's that eternity thing again.

43 posted on 11/01/2009 11:43:55 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin: pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg

Understood. I still haven’t found any scriptural authority for saying God is outside of time. The Systematic Theology text our Sunday School class is working thru gets to that chapter next week, I think...should be interesting, since I think the text is wrong.


44 posted on 11/01/2009 11:50:26 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mad Dawg

Ref Purgatory...I’ll look forward to your post. I appreciate the effort that goes in to putting one together. Sometimes time - which we CERTAINLY are in - just doesn’t permit doing all we would wish!


45 posted on 11/01/2009 11:53:10 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers

Pretty straightforward Catholic thought, you have an issue with it?


46 posted on 11/01/2009 11:56:05 AM PST by narses ("These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own.")
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To: Mr Rogers
That is the role of elders in the church. Matt 18 covers unrepentant sin, and heresy would be a part of that

How utterly doctrinaire; "elders" as defined by Protestant doctrine are no more uniform nor universal in judgement than anything else related to reformation theology.

Even so, this is a case of using a hammer on a screw because it is the only tool you own for driving fasteners!

How many elders does it take to make it a sin to use anything but the King James Bible? I promise you I can find plenty, but I can find even MORE that disagree!

47 posted on 11/01/2009 12:03:12 PM PST by papertyger (It took a Carter to elect a Reagan, President Palin....)
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To: papertyger

Well, Baptists use a free market approach...if you believe X is heresy, go somewhere where it isn’t accepted. However, a part of it is that elders are supposed to be able to refute bad doctrine with good - to teach WHY doctrine X is heresy.

And yes, I’ve been in several congregations where we had to tell someone to get out and stay out...a few for unrepentant sin (adultery) and a couple for teaching heresy (self-proclaimed prophets whose teaching violated God’s word).


48 posted on 11/01/2009 12:08:46 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers
I'll be interested to read. as much as you have the time and energy to share.

I'm THINKING (guessing?) that the problem is multi-faceted and more philosophical than anything else. That is some of the attributes of God are difficult to reconcile with his being in time.

For one thing, as a teaser, time seems to be about measuring motion or change. If everything that is is not changing in any way, how can we say time is passing. And if "before" creation, God is the only "thing that is", is He changing? If not, then no time.

Another way to say it is that time is about things that change, and only creatures change.

When we think not only about a thousand ages being short as the watch that ends the night but also a day's being like a thousand years, we imagine ourselves being able to expand or contract our experience of time. But then WE still change in reaciton to what's around us, what we perceive. So in our imagination we posit a third "time", the short time in which I am as a thousand ages pass, or the other time in which a day is so very long - my eperinece of time as I say, "That was a short time," or "That was a long time."

Further we have to struggle with the thousand ages being like an evening in some respects, but in others, as God sprinkles grace on the mired and slow-moving soul, the complex ALMOST-instant in which the soul turns from doubt to faith, can be imagined as the slow intricate gracious work of God and His angels in the mysterious depths of that soul. So we're going to end up positing an indefinitely (if not infinitely) large array of subjective times for God to operate in as he straightens recalcitrant Mad Dawgs out and keeps them safe and manages the internal economy of the sub-atomic particles in the Magellanic Cloud.

If, on the other hand, we have God outside of time, while the basic notion is incomprehensible, the rest falls easily into place. "Before Abraham was," or, indeed, anything or anyone else, "I AM!" Also during and after ....

Something along those lines.

49 posted on 11/01/2009 12:15:07 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin: pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mr Rogers
Understood. I still haven’t found any scriptural authority for saying God is outside of time.

Yes you did, you just didn't understand it. "Eternal" is outside of time by definition. Without mass (the physics kind) there is no time, and prior to creation, mass did not exist. Therefore, anything not part of creation stands outside of time by definition.

50 posted on 11/01/2009 12:18:10 PM PST by papertyger (It took a Carter to elect a Reagan, President Palin....)
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