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To Trace All Souls Day (Protestants vs Catholics)
Insight Scoop ^ | November 2, 2009 | Fr. Brian Van Hove, S.J.

Posted on 11/02/2009 3:53:32 PM PST by NYer

As Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger once said so well, one major difference between Protestants and Catholics is that Catholics pray for the dead:

"My view is that if Purgatory did not exist, we should have to invent it." Why?


"Because few things are as immediate, as human and as widespread—at all times and in all cultures—as prayer for one"s own departed dear ones." Calvin, the Reformer of Geneva, had a woman whipped because she was discovered praying at the grave of herson and hence was guilty, according to Calvin, of superstition". "In theory, the Reformation refuses to accept Purgatory, and consequently it also rejects prayer for the departed. In fact German Lutherans at least have returned to it in practice and have found considerable theological justification for it. Praying for one's departed loved ones is a far too immediate urge to be suppressed; it is a most beautiful manifestation of solidarity, love and assistance, reaching beyond the barrier of death. The happiness or unhappiness of a person dear to me, who has now crossed to the other shore, depends in part on whether I remember or forget him; he does not stop needing my love." [1]

Catholics are not the only ones who pray for the dead. The custom is also a Jewish one, and Catholics traditionally drew upon the following text from the Jewish Scriptures, in addition to some New Testament passages, to justify their belief:

Then Judas assembled his army and went to the city of Adulam. As the seventh day was coming on, they purified themselves according to the custom, and they kept the sabbath there. On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers. Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honourably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. [2]

Besides the Jews, many ancient peoples also prayed for the deceased. Some societies, such as that of ancient Egypt, were actually "funereal" and built around the practice. [3] The urge to do so is deep in the human spirit which rebels against the concept of annihilation after death. Although there is some evidence for a Christian liturgical feast akin to our All Souls Day as early as the fourth century, the Church was slow to introduce such a festival because of the persistence, in Europe, of more ancient pagan rituals for the dead. In fact, the Protestant reaction to praying for the dead may be based more on these survivals and a deformed piety from pre-Christian times than on the true Catholic doctrine as expressed by either the Western or the Eastern Church. The doctrine of purgatory, rightly understood as praying for the dead, should never give offense to anyone who professes faith in Christ.


When we discuss the Feast of All Souls, we look at a liturgical commemoration which pre-dated doctrinal formulation itself, since the Church often clarifies only that which is being undermined or threatened. The first clear documentation for this celebration comes from Isidore of Seville (d. 636; the last of the great Western Church Fathers) whose monastic rule includes a liturgy for all the dead on the day after Pentecost. [4] St. Odilo (962-1049 AD) was the abbot of Cluny in France who set the date for the liturgical commemoration of the departed faithful on November 2.

Before that, other dates had been seen around the Christian world, and the Armenians still use Easter Monday for this purpose. He issued a decree that all the monasteries of the congregation of Cluny were annually to keep this feast. On November 1 the bell was to be tolled and afterward the Office of the Dead was to be recited in common, and on the next day all the priests would celebrate Mass for the repose of the souls in purgatory. The observance of the Benedictines of Cluny was soon adopted by other Benedictines and by the Carthusians who were reformed Benedictines. Pope Sylvester in 1003 AD approved and recommended the practice. Eventually the parish clergy introduced this liturgical observance, and from the eleventh to the fourteenth century it spread in France, Germany, England, and Spain.


Finally, in the fourteenth century, Rome placed the day of the commemoration of all the faithful departed in the official books of the Western or Latin Church. November 2 was chosen in order that the memory of all the holy spirits, both of the saints in heaven and of the souls in purgatory, should be celebrated in two successive days. In this way the Catholic belief in the Communion of Saints would be expressed. Since for centuries the Feast of All the Saints had already been celebrated on November first, the memory of the departed souls in purgatory was placed on the following day. All Saints Day goes back to the fourth century, but was finally fixed on November 1 by Pope Gregory IV in 835 AD. The two feasts bind the saints-to-be with the almost-saints and the already-saints before the resurrection from the dead.


Incidentally, the practice of priests celebrating three Masses on this day is of somewhat recent origin, and dates back only to ca. 1500 AD with the Dominicans of Valencia. Pope Benedict XIV extended it to the whole of Spain, Portugal, and Latin America in 1748 AD. Pope Benedict XV in 1915 AD granted the "three Masses privilege" to the universal Church. [5]


On All Souls Day, can we pray for those in limbo? The notion of limbo is not ancient in the Church, and was a theological extrapolation to provide explanation for cases not included in the heaven-purgatory-hell triad. Cardinal Ratzinger was in favor of its being set aside, and it does not appear as a thesis to be taught in the new Universal Catechism of the Catholic Church. [6]


The doctrine of Purgatory, upon which the liturgy of All Souls rests, is formulated in canons promulgated by the Councils of Florence (1439 AD) and Trent (1545-1563 AD). The truth of the doctrine existed before its clarification, of course, and only historical necessities motivated both Florence and Trent to pronounce when they did. Acceptance of this doctrine still remains a required belief of Catholic faith.


What about "indulgences"? Indulgences from the treasury of grace in the Church are applied to the departed on All Souls Day, as well as on other days, according to the norms of ecclesiastical law. The faithful make use of their intercessory role in prayer to ask the Lord"s mercy upon those who have died. Essentially, the practice urges the faithful to take responsibility. This is the opinion of Michael Morrissey:

Against the common juridical and commercial view, the teaching essentially attempts to induce the faithful to show responsibility toward the dead and the communion of saints. Since the Church has taught that death is not the end of life, then neither is it the end of our relationship with loved ones who have died, who along with the saints make up the Body of Christ in the "Church Triumphant."


The diminishing theological interest in indulgences today is due to an increased emphasis on the sacraments, the prayer life of Catholics, and an active engagement in the world as constitutive of the spiritual life. More soberly, perhaps, it is due to an individualistic attitude endemic in modern culture that makes it harder to feel responsibility for, let alone solidarity with, dead relatives and friends. [7]

As with everything Christian, then, All Souls Day has to do with the mystery of charity, that divine love overcomes everything, even death. Bonds of love uniting us creatures, living and dead, and the Lord who is resurrected, are celebrated both on All Saints Day and on All Souls Day each year.


All who have been baptized into Christ and have chosen him will continue to live in Him. The grave does not impede progress toward a closer union with Him. It is only this degree of closeness to Him which we consider when we celebrate All Saints one day, and All Souls the next. Purgatory is a great blessing because it shows those who love God how they failed in love, and heals their ensuing shame. Most of us have neither fulfilled the commandments nor failed to fulfill them. Our very mediocrity shames us. Purgatory fills in the void. We learn finally what to fulfill all of them means. Most of us neither hate nor fail completely in love. Purgatory teaches us what radical love means, when God remakes our failure to love in this world into the perfection of love in the next.


As the sacraments on earth provide us with a process of transformation into Christ, so Purgatory continues that process until the likeness to Him is completed. It is all grace. Actively praying for the dead is that "holy mitzvah" or act of charity on our part which hastens that process. The Church encourages it and does it with special consciousness and in unison on All Souls Day, even though it is always and everywhere salutary to pray for the dead.


ENDNOTES:


[1] See Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, The Ratzinger Report: An Exclusive Interview on the State of the Church, with Vittorio Messori (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1985) 146-147. Michael P. Morrissey says on the point: "The Protestant Reformers rejected the doctrine of purgatory, based on the teaching that salvation is by faith through grace alone, unaffected by intercessory prayers for the dead." See his "Afterlife" in The Dictionary of Catholic Spirituality, ed. Michael Downey (Collegeville: Michael Glazier/Liturgical Press, 1993) 28.


[2] Maccabees 12:38-46. From The Holy Bible, Revised Standard Version, Containing the Old and New Testaments. Catholic Edition. (London: The Catholic Truth Society, 1966) 988-989. Neil J. McEleney, CSP, adds: "These verses contain clear reference to belief in the resurrection of the just...a belief which the author attributes to Judas ...although Judas may have wanted simply to ward off punishment from the living, lest they be found guilty by association with the fallen sinners.... The author believes that those who died piously will rise again...and who can die more piously than in a battle for God"s law? ...Thus, he says, Judas prayed that these men might be delivered from their sin, for which God was angry with them a little while.... The author, then, does not share the view expressed in 1 Enoch 22:12-13 that sinned- against sinners are kept in a division of Sheol from which they do not rise, although they are free of the suffering inflicted on other sinners. Instead, he sees Judas"s action as evidence that those who die piously can be delivered from unexpiated sins that impede their attainment of a joyful resurrection. This doctrine, thus vaguely formulated, contains the essence of what would become (with further precisions) the Christian theologian's teaching on purgatory." See The New Jerome Biblical Commentary, ed. Raymond E. Brown, SS, etal., art. 26, "1-2 Maccabees" (Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice Hall, 1990) 446. Gehinnom in Jewish writings is more appropriately understood as a purgatory than a final destination of damnation.



[3] Spanish-speaking Catholics today popularly refer to All Souls Day as "El Día de los Muertos", a relic of the past when the pre- Christian Indians had a "Day of the Dead"; liturgically, the day is referred to as "El Día de las Animas". Germans call their Sunday of the Dead "Totensonntag". The French Jesuit missionaries in New France in the seventeenth century easily explained All Souls Day by comparing it to the the local Indian "Day of the Dead". The Jesuit Relations are replete with examples of how conscious were the people of their duties toward their dead. Ancestor worship was also well known in China and elsewhere in Asia, and missionaries there in times gone by perhaps had it easier explaining All Souls Day to them, and Christianizing the concept, than they would have to us in the Western world as the twentieth century draws to a close.


[4] See Michael Witczak, "The Feast of All Souls", in The Dictionary of Sacramental Worship, ed. Peter Fink, SJ, (Collegeville: Michael Glazier/Liturgical Press, 1990) 42.


[5] "Three Masses were formerly allowed to be celebrated by each priest, but one intention was stipulated for all the Poor Souls and another for the Pope"s intention. This permission was granted by Benedict XV during the World War of 1914-1918 because of the great slaughter of that war, and because, since the time of the Reformation and the confiscation of church property, obligations for anniversary Masses which had come as gifts and legacies were almost impossible to continue in the intended manner. Some canonists believe Canon 905 of the New Code has abolished this practice. However, the Sacramentary, printed prior to the Code, provides three separate Masses for this date." See Jovian P. Lang, OFM, Dictionary of the Liturgy (New York: Catholic Book Publishing Company, 1989) 21. Also see Francis X. Weiser, The Holyday Book (New York: Harcourt, Brace and Company, 1956) 121-136.


[6] Ratzinger stated: "Limbo was never a defined truth of faith. Personally—and here I am speaking more as a theologian and not as Prefect of the Congregation—I would abandon it since it was only a theological hypothesis. It formed part of a secondary thesis in support of a truth which is absolutely of first significance for faith, namely, the importance of baptism. To put it in the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God" (John 3:5). One should not hesitate to give up the idea of "limbo" if need be (and it is worth noting that the very theologians who proposed "limbo" also said that parents could spare the child limbo by desiring its baptism and through prayer); but the concern behind it must not be surrendered. Baptism has never been a side issue for faith; it is not now, nor will it ever be." See Ratzinger, The Ratzinger Report, 147-148.


[7] Morrissey, "Afterlife" in The Dictionary of Catholic Spirituality, 28-29.


TOPICS: Catholic; Mainline Protestant; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: 1tim47; death; purgatory

1 posted on 11/02/2009 3:53:33 PM PST by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Discussion ping!


2 posted on 11/02/2009 3:54:12 PM PST by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

There’s a “Protestants vs Catholics” caucus now? :)


3 posted on 11/02/2009 4:05:51 PM PST by Lorica
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To: Lorica

Let’s get ready to rumble!


4 posted on 11/02/2009 4:13:45 PM PST by Tao Yin (sorry, couldn't resist.)
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To: NYer
The idea that a Prince of the Church would think that a doctrine would need to be invented to ease the suffering of those who have lost a loved one is incredible.

Did Jesus ease the minds of the brothers of the rich man across the great gulf?

Does the Bible not say that whoever adds anything to the Bible will have the curses of the Bible added unto him?

Dangerous ground to be treading.

5 posted on 11/02/2009 4:27:54 PM PST by wbarmy (Hard core, extremist, and right-wing is a little too mild for my tastes.)
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To: Tao Yin
To Trace All Souls Day (Protestants vs Catholics)

November 2 -- All Souls Day
On November: All Souls and the "Permanent Things"
"From the Pastor" ALL SAINTS & ALL SOULS
Praying for the Dead [All Souls Day] (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
To Trace All Souls Day [Ecumenical]

All Souls Day [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
The Roots of All Souls Day
The Commemoration of all the Faithful Departed (All Souls)
During Month of Souls, Recall Mystic, St. Gertrude the Great
All Saints and All Souls

All Saints, All Souls and the Four Last Things
The Feast of All Saints - What are the origins of All Saints Day and All Souls Day?
All Saints and All Souls
All Souls Day and final destinations
Ideas for Sanctifying Halloween, All Saints Day and All Souls Day

6 posted on 11/02/2009 4:30:16 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer
Ratzinger stated: "Limbo was never a defined truth of faith. Personally—and here I am speaking more as a theologian and not as Prefect of the Congregation—I would abandon it since it was only a theological hypothesis. It formed part of a secondary thesis in support of a truth which is absolutely of first significance for faith, namely, the importance of baptism. To put it in the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God"

I think catholics are fairly clear why evangelicals do not believe in purgatory. More likely non-catholics are unclear why catholics "do" believe in it.

For the sake of evangelicals a bit more explanation about the origin of the doctrine of purgatory might be interesting.

No one is going to change anyone's mind, probably, but it helps to know where your brother is coming from on a given issue.

Ratzinger is first rate, by the way.

7 posted on 11/02/2009 4:35:56 PM PST by marron
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To: NYer

Interesting. All of Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy pray for the dead and none of us believe in purgatory. Several hundred million Christians praying for the dead and yet not believing in purgatory would seem to put the lie to any notion that a belief in purgatory is the sine qua non of a belief in the efficacy of prayers for the dead.


8 posted on 11/02/2009 5:07:56 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
and none of us believe in purgatory...

Well, there are the aerial toll booths.

9 posted on 11/02/2009 5:14:41 PM PST by Martin Tell (ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it)
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To: wbarmy
Does the Bible not say that whoever adds anything to the Bible will have the curses of the Bible added unto him?

No.

10 posted on 11/02/2009 5:15:55 PM PST by Titanites
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To: Martin Tell
Well, there are the aerial toll booths.

And the Spirit Houses.


11 posted on 11/02/2009 5:24:09 PM PST by Titanites
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To: Martin Tell

“Well, there are the aerial toll booths.”

Yes, an odd and not at all universally taught, much less accepted, Russian notion. In fact, far from being any kind of dogma, it has been locally condemned as heretical.


12 posted on 11/02/2009 5:26:13 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
Could you explain why you pray for the dead if you don't believe in Purgatory?

Protestants believe either that the soul is in heaven or hell immediately after death, or that it waits "sleeping" until the final judgement.

Are either of those compatible with what you believe? I am not familiar with very much about the Orthodox Church, so excuse my rather convoluted question.

13 posted on 11/02/2009 6:52:07 PM PST by Miss Marple
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To: Miss Marple

I was about to give you a long answer to your question and then remembered a good exposition of Orthodox theology and praxis on this matter from a Russian Orthodox source and another from my own Archdiocese:

http://www.orthodox.net/articles/about-prayer-for-the-dead.html

Here’s the longer and much more detailed discussion from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocesan website called “Death, The Threshold to Eternal Life”:

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7076


14 posted on 11/02/2009 7:21:10 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Titanites
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Revelation 22:18

15 posted on 11/02/2009 7:54:50 PM PST by wbarmy (Hard core, extremist, and right-wing is a little too mild for my tastes.)
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To: wbarmy
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

This verse doesn't support your claim. "This book" refers to the book of Revelation, not the book known as the Bible.

16 posted on 11/02/2009 8:16:11 PM PST by Titanites
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To: Miss Marple

I pray for the dead, and for my son’s descendants yet unborn (he is 9), and ask for them to be blessed, and lead into Christ’s perfect will.

My theological understanding is basically Protestant, but a part of that is that it is my responsibility to seek understanding.

God so profoundly transcends linear time that our notions of proper sequence and limitations probably fail. God is in the miracle business, and he directs me to be at the tasks of faith, trust, prayer and study.

I will pray for others - the quick, the dead and those to come. Whether God answers is within His will and within His character and power, which I know only dimly and in part. I will not however limit His grace to the boundaries of my ignorance or despair.

The opinions of others in this is of no matter to me.


17 posted on 11/02/2009 9:41:28 PM PST by Psalm 144 (What did you think NEW WORLD ORDER meant? The Constitution? States' rights? Individual liberty?)
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To: wbarmy

Are you aware that Luther is the person who added things to the KJV and too the REAL books of the Bible out because they had certain veerses that disproved his statements?


18 posted on 11/02/2009 10:12:34 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Miss Marple

Actually the Protestants are partially right. Anyone who finds themselves in Purgatory knows that they are going to heaven and just need to be further purified.

So — they are in the pain of separation from Christ, even though they may be so near. That’s why it is so important to pray for the Poor Souls in Purgatory. They know when we are praying for them and some seers not approved by the church have actually been told that those for whom we pray will come to greet us at the moment of our death.


19 posted on 11/02/2009 10:17:00 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: wbarmy
You are leaving out part of that passage -- AND it applies to Luther!
 
I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
19
and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book.
20
12 The one who gives this testimony says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!
21
The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all.

20 posted on 11/02/2009 10:20:40 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer; redgolum; Mr Rogers
Not a completely correct debate. As the article points out, the Lutherans do pray for the dead (Red, is the article correct?) and I'm pretty sure Anglicans do as well. Baptists, I don't know -- Mr. R, what's the norm for Baptists on this? Calvinists, Presbyterians as the article points out, definitely NOT, but what about Methodists?

secondly, it's more correctly an Apostolic Church belief, not just Catholic -- our Orthodox, Coptic, Armenian and Assyrian and Syriac brethern would also have similar beliefs as us CAtholics with regards to praying for the departed.
21 posted on 11/03/2009 4:30:57 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca NOW!!!)
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To: Cronos

Baptist doctrine in the US is principally derived from Calvinism. This is particularly true in the north, where there is little distinction in doctrine from Reform churches.

Very crudely, and by no means universally, Baptists tend to track Calvinism in all doctines of salvation except predestination through foreordination, where Baptists are frequently more Arminian and thus more evangelical in focus and practice. Nevertheless, there are many Baptist believers and congregations which are decidedly Calvinist, and differ from Reform belief only on doctrines of baptism and church governance.

I am a Baptist, have known a fair number of Baptist pastors, been friends with most of them, and listened to many more. Not one has advocated or condoned intercessory prayers for the dead, that I have heard. The doctrine is rejected, rather strongly in many instances.


22 posted on 11/03/2009 5:23:50 AM PST by Psalm 144 (What did you think NEW WORLD ORDER meant? The Constitution? States' rights? Individual liberty?)
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To: Cronos
The Lutheran view of the Communion of Saints isn't like the Catholic view. Most synods do not have any sort of intercessory prayer for the dead, and we don't “pray to” saints. We believe that once you die on this earth, you will be judged. And that judgment is personal (in other words I can not have someone still on earth try to get me out on their own petitions).

We do believe that those saints pray for us (as stated in Revelation).

Some of the Scandinavian and African synods are a bit different.

23 posted on 11/03/2009 4:53:52 PM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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