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Interesting Comments from a Protestant who listens to Catholic Radio
PatrickMadrid ^ | December 11, 2009 | Patrick Madrid

Posted on 12/11/2009 4:15:24 PM PST by NYer



I ran across this post today from an Evangelical Protestant commentator named Michael Spencer. He described how he spent the better part of a day recently listening to and thinking about Catholic radio and the greater and lesser degrees of effectiveness of the men and women who host shows on Catholic radio networks like EWTN.

Though I don't agree with all his observations (in response to one particular remark, for example, I'd assert that Scott Hahn is every bit the "intellectual heavy-weight Protestants make him out to be"), I found myself agreeing with some and, on a few points, agreeing wholeheartedly.

But even in the areas where I do not agree with Mr. Spencer, I can surely sympathize with his situation as a Protestant who admits to being "very open to what Catholicism has to say," and I can see how he might come to some of the conclusions he reaches, even if I, a Catholic, might disagree with those conclusions.

One reason for my sympathy is that so much of the radio medium is really predicated on the Latin maxim: de gustibus non disputandum est, which could be somewhat loosely translated as "there is no use in arguing in matters of taste." Another way to say it: "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

His comments interested me in part because I myself host a Catholic radio call-in show called "Open Line" (Thursdays at 3:00 pm ET on EWTN Radio), so, I'm naturally curious to know what listeners think about such programming, especially my non-Catholic listeners. I was also fascinated by the fact that some of Mr. Spencer's Catholic friends actually discouraged him from listening to Catholic radio, saying it presented a "distorted" picture of the Catholic Church. I find that tidbit very telling indeed. It's not anything new, of course, but it says a lot about just how widely divergent some Catholics are when it comes to what they think constitutes an accurate portrayal of "The Catholic Church."

Not knowing exactly what his Catholic friends may have meant by that warning, I can only conjecture. But I've heard that same claim about EWTN-esque Catholic radio being "distorted" before, and I personally don't buy it. True, I play a very minor role in the larger Catholic radio enterprise, so I am biased, but I really believe that networks like EWTN are, far from distorting Catholicism, actually projecting the Catholic Church, at least in its American, Latin American, and European experience, as it really is, and has been, and should be, and could be. Of course, it goes without saying that there is far, far more to the Catholic Church culturally than its expression within an American or European context, but theologically, I would argue, what EWTN strives to purvey is historic, orthodox Catholicism. I know that for a fact.

The problem, as I see it, is that there has been so much genuine distortion within the American Catholic experience over the past 50 years or so, with plenty of obscuring and redefining and outright denying of orthodox Catholic teaching and piety, that now, after looking through badly scratched lenses (or listening through ears badly clogged with the earwax of dissent and confusion), many today who are finally coming into contact with real Catholicism find, at least at first perhaps, that their eyes and ears hurt a bit from the experience.

But then, that's just me. I'd be curious to know what you think, especially those of you who listen to Catholic radio.


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: catholic; ewtn; moapb; repost

1 posted on 12/11/2009 4:15:24 PM PST by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; markomalley; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; ...

Thoughts on a day of Catholic Radio

fbgThanks for prayers for health. I am feeling God’s goodness and kindness each day. Still several days away from any kind of information I can share. Continue praying. I love you and count myself blessed a thousand times to be surrounded by so many who will pray for me.

I spent the entire day yesterday listening to Catholic radio. I took in EWTN and Ave Maria in about equal portions, along with a couple of archived hours of Catholic Answers. I thought it would be interesting to the IM audience today to hear some of my thoughts on the “Catholic radio” experience.

Let me say a couple of things. First, some good Catholic friends have told me not to do this. Not because it is counter-productive as much as simply a bit distorted in its picture of the Church. EWTN is one kind of American Catholic experience, but it’s very much its own culture and flavor. There is lots more going on, some not as conservative, some far deeper and richer in flavor. I hope I counted all of this as I reflected on what I was hearing.

Secondly, I’m very open to what Catholicism has to say. I’m about as soft a sell as you could find right now. My own evangelicalism has made its case to me and while I remain part of the evangelical community, I am not manning the ramparts with weapons. I’m opening windows and doors, actively inviting in the voices of non-evangelical Christians and their experience of Christ.

Third, it was the Feast of the Immaculate Conception yesterday, so I heard a lot of discussion of Mary.

So here are some of my reflections. No particular order or significance to placement.

1. The broadcast of the mass of the Feast of the Immaculate Conception from the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in D.C. was very impressive. With all the theological questions that come along with this emphasis, the beauty, majesty and antiquity of the Catholic faith comes across. Evangelicals these days, given an hour or so of similar time, would….what? Contemporary music with a celebrity sermon? We could, within our resources, present a wonderful and beautiful worship experience, but one wonders if it would ever get past the discussions of contemporary music. etc.

2. Likewise, there are some embarrassing and ignorant goof-balls who have managed to corner an hour of Catholic radio. If anyone thinks that evangelicals or fundamentalists have a corner on this market, you are quite wrong. They are waiting for you on the other side.

3. It doesn’t seem that a majority of the voices I heard on a day of Catholic radio have a sense of how the church itself, and the mysteries of Christ, the church and personal faith, are experienced differently in Roman Catholic spirituality as compared to Protestantism. The reformation isn’t just a historical and doctrinal event. There has developed a significantly different experience of the church, the Gospel and the Christian life in these two traditions. It’s not simply a multiple choice question, but two very different ways of living, trusting and being a Christian. Overlooking this is a real mistake. It isn’t easy to talk about, but I’m convinced that, at the end of the day, it has to be counted far more important than most make it.

4. Catholic Answers’ apologists answer a huge number of marriage related questions. It’s simply quite extraordinary. Sometimes half the questions offered to a Catholic Answers apologist are marriage related. Is there a better place to work these things out than the radio? The impression this leaves with a Protestant is poor.

5. Catholic Answers’ apologists, at least as I have heard them on this day and many others, vary widely in quality, and some of them are quite weak. Jimmy Akin is CA’s senior apologist. A caller asked him about Mary’s behavior toward Jesus in Mark 3. He was stumped. Speechless. He sounded as if he hadn’t read up on this passage in years. Eventually, after a couple of extended silences, he resorted to appealing to “nuances in translation,” a far too frequent apologetic hide out for the unprepared. I know this passage well from teaching Mark. I could have answered- in a Catholic friendly way- in a minute. Unimpressive and indicative that, as I’ve said, the wrong emphasis is often implied in this kind of Catholic argumentation.

6. Fr. Benedict Groeschel did an hour long presentation on the Immaculate Conception. He’s simple and quite excellent, and I say that counting in what scholarship has to say, what the early church fathers contribute and where the teaching authority of the church steps in to define dogma. Fr. Groeschel understands them all, gives them the proper emphasis and never- never!- tries to argue an evangelical into seeing that this doctrine is plainly taught in scripture. Even Luther and Calvin believed it by way of Augustine. When one meets a Catholic who deals with his/her own beliefs in the context of how the Catholic church actually holds the faith, everything works much better. The voices that act as if these things are simply matters of argument about scripture and that’s all are not helpful.

7. Scott Hahn may not be the scholarly heavyweight that the RCC in America make him out to be, but he really is a gift to the RCC. Few people in evangelicalism could do what he does with scripture, tradition and experience in such a winsome way. His evident joy in his journey goes along with his enthusiasm for the Bible in Catholicism and results in a very glad witness.

8. More than a few people at Catholic Answers/EWTN need to re-read the Vatican II documents on ecumenism and make up their minds whether they plan to present the church’s views accurately or not. At times, it seemed to me that some persons were ready to go to the rack rather than say “separated brethren.” Bizarre.

Your thoughts and responses to my impressions are welcome.

2 posted on 12/11/2009 4:17:02 PM PST by NYer ("One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone" - Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

3. It doesn’t seem that a majority of the voices I heard on a day of Catholic radio have a sense of how the church itself, and the mysteries of Christ, the church and personal faith, are experienced differently in Roman Catholic spirituality as compared to Protestantism. The reformation isn’t just a historical and doctrinal event. There has developed a significantly different experience of the church, the Gospel and the Christian life in these two traditions. It’s not simply a multiple choice question, but two very different ways of living, trusting and being a Christian. Overlooking this is a real mistake. It isn’t easy to talk about, but I’m convinced that, at the end of the day, it has to be counted far more important than most make it.

###################

I think that’s quite true.

Thx.


3 posted on 12/11/2009 4:55:28 PM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED)
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To: NYer

I think that non-Catholics who listen to Catholic Radio need to understand, it’s isn’t being broadcast for them. It’s being broadcast for us.

If they are hoping to find a Trinity Broadcasting or CBN type programing, they are not going to find it. Those are generic Christian. A Baptist, a Presbyterian or a Methodist can find themselves in the broadcasts, but we live what we are, we are Catholic and live Catholic, not Bible Christian only. Those broadcasts are from our POV. Sorry they don’t like our talk of marriage or the Immaculate Conception. They can turn the dial, because we are talking to Catholics.

From someone who used to be majorly into the non-Catholic stations, I can tell you, Catholic Radio is not the same as non-Catholic radio. We talk to us. We are not generic and it’s not meant to be. If they had a Lutheran EWTN, the Presbyterians may not get into it. The problem is?


4 posted on 12/11/2009 5:44:08 PM PST by netmilsmom (I am Ilk)
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To: NYer

I’d say the majority of Catholic radio projects what most Catholics all over the world are like. Many American Catholics (and clergy and religious) are their own breed. Most of the Catholics I know are not traditional. It gets pretty lonely if you are traditional.

In our parish this year, we had a mundane Mass with a solo cantor for the Feast of the Immaculate Conception. For the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe, the whole church was decorated and their were Aztec dancers.

No wonder people get confused.


5 posted on 12/11/2009 9:12:43 PM PST by Melian ("Here's the moral of the story: Catholic witness has a cost." ~Archbishop Charles Chaput)
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To: netmilsmom

One thing no one brings up and I find poor form is the habit of converts, such as Hahn, Grodi, and Madrid, sort of chuckling at the misguided Protestants like they are dim bulbs who don’t really understand things.

As a convert, I appreciate that Protestants often don’t understand some of Catholicism, but whether Catholic radio is oriented towards Catholics or the world at large, this sort of attitude is off-putting. I have quit watching Grodi’s program on EWTN because of this attitude.

Father Groeschel is the best on EWTN, and I try to catch his program every week. I also listen to anything he does on radio. He does NOT talk down to people nor does he have that smug “I know the Truth” attitude towards those of other faiths.

I realize this is probably going to annoy some people, but a steady diet of this type of stuff would have pushed me away from Catholicism, had I heard it when I was exploring joining the Church.


6 posted on 12/12/2009 6:09:02 AM PST by Miss Marple
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To: Miss Marple

You’ve never found that on other Christian Media? I have. Watch some Trinity Broadcasting and see how they look down on those who interpret the Bible in ways different than they do. They cut no breaks. In fact, I was just reading about the No Greater Joy ministry and the interpretations of the Bible by the wife as to the place of a woman. Those who don’t think the way she does are called “whores” and “hussies”. Her ideas of staying in a marriage through all is downright dangerous.

My husband is a convert also. He doesn’t find Catholic Radio condescending. Some of the stuff is what he calls “The Catholic Club”. He felt left out until he was in. But as he said, that’s any group, everywhere.


7 posted on 12/12/2009 6:38:44 AM PST by netmilsmom (I am Ilk)
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To: NYer
The broadcast of the mass of the Feast of the Immaculate Conception from the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in D.C. was very impressive. With all the theological questions that come along with this emphasis, the beauty, majesty and antiquity of the Catholic faith comes across. Evangelicals these days, given an hour or so of similar time, would….what? Contemporary music with a celebrity sermon? We could, within our resources, present a wonderful and beautiful worship experience, but one wonders if it would ever get past the discussions of contemporary music. etc.

I heard that the Ave Maria in particular was quite beautiful at the noon. I will remind everyone that while the National Shrine has deeper pockets than some other places, the cathedrals generally make do with limited budgets.

8 posted on 12/12/2009 6:54:50 AM PST by Desdemona (True Christianity requires open hearts and open minds - not blind hatred.)
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To: NYer
It doesn’t seem that a majority of the voices I heard on a day of Catholic radio have a sense of how the church itself, and the mysteries of Christ, the church and personal faith, are experienced differently in Roman Catholic spirituality as compared to Protestantism. The reformation isn’t just a historical and doctrinal event.

That's largely because Catholics see the period of the 16th century from the other side. It was more of an intellectual revolt against centuries of revelation and Sacred Tradition that resulted in large scale destruction and confiscation of Church property and assets that had been left in trust for future generations. Much like what happened in the latter 20th century with wreckovation and the wholesale discarding of the old Mass, what was beloved by the people was ripped away and destroyed by forces who were chasing what amounts to a fad.

There has developed a significantly different experience of the church, the Gospel and the Christian life in these two traditions. It’s not simply a multiple choice question, but two very different ways of living, trusting and being a Christian. Overlooking this is a real mistake. It isn’t easy to talk about, but I’m convinced that, at the end of the day, it has to be counted far more important than most make it.

This is very true to an extent. It's difficult a lot of times to put observations into words without causing massive offense.

9 posted on 12/12/2009 7:06:06 AM PST by Desdemona (True Christianity requires open hearts and open minds - not blind hatred.)
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To: NYer
Catholic Answers’ apologists answer a huge number of marriage related questions. It’s simply quite extraordinary. Sometimes half the questions offered to a Catholic Answers apologist are marriage related. Is there a better place to work these things out than the radio? The impression this leaves with a Protestant is poor.

As marriage is a vocation, this is very much the proper place for it.

10 posted on 12/12/2009 7:07:09 AM PST by Desdemona (True Christianity requires open hearts and open minds - not blind hatred.)
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To: NYer
Scott Hahn may not be the scholarly heavyweight that the RCC in America make him out to be, but he really is a gift to the RCC. Few people in evangelicalism could do what he does with scripture, tradition and experience in such a winsome way.

I actually find him to be quite annoying.

11 posted on 12/12/2009 7:09:16 AM PST by Desdemona (True Christianity requires open hearts and open minds - not blind hatred.)
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To: Miss Marple; Patrick Madrid
One thing no one brings up and I find poor form is the habit of converts, such as Hahn, Grodi, and Madrid,

You are mistaken. Patrick Madrid is a cradle Catholic.

Patrick is a cradle-Catholic, not a convert. By God's grace, he was raised in the Catholic Faith and has been a practicing Catholic his entire life.

12 posted on 12/12/2009 7:54:22 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: NYer
The problem, as I see it, is that there has been so much genuine distortion within the American Catholic experience over the past 50 years or so, with plenty of obscuring and redefining and outright denying of orthodox Catholic teaching and piety, that now, after looking through badly scratched lenses (or listening through ears badly clogged with the earwax of dissent and confusion), many today who are finally coming into contact with real Catholicism find, at least at first perhaps, that their eyes and ears hurt a bit from the experience.

Well said. Too many have an attitude that doing anything more than going to Mass weekly is being 'too pious'. They've gotten out of the habit of saying the Rosary, going to Adoration, etc. so anyone else doing so is considered some sort of 'Jesus freak'. I DID get out of those habits for many years, and what brought me back to them was our involvement in a Charismatic Prayer group for a while, when we lived in NJ.

But I don't listen to EWTN or watch it on TV. Sometimes it gets a little too 'pious piffle' for me, but I'm glad it's there for those who like it, or those who are searching for something REAL in their lives, and want to look at the Catholic faith. It is there, unadulterated, for anyone who is looking with an open heart.

13 posted on 12/12/2009 7:59:28 AM PST by SuziQ
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To: Quix; All

3. It doesn’t seem that a majority of the voices I heard on a day of Catholic radio have a sense of how the church itself, and the mysteries of Christ, the church and personal faith, are experienced differently in Roman Catholic spirituality as compared to Protestantism. The reformation isn’t just a historical and doctrinal event. There has developed a significantly different experience of the church, the Gospel and the Christian life in these two traditions. It’s not simply a multiple choice question, but two very different ways of living, trusting and being a Christian. Overlooking this is a real mistake. It isn’t easy to talk about, but I’m convinced that, at the end of the day, it has to be counted far more important than most make it.

###################

I think that’s quite true.

Thx.

I do too. Tangentially if not complimentarily, the following point below is also of note:

6. Fr. Benedict Groeschel did an hour long presentation on the Immaculate Conception. He’s simple and quite excellent, and I say that counting in what scholarship has to say, what the early church fathers contribute and where the teaching authority of the church steps in to define dogma. Fr. Groeschel understands them all, gives them the proper emphasis and never- never!- tries to argue an evangelical into seeing that this doctrine is plainly taught in scripture. Even Luther and Calvin believed it by way of Augustine. When one meets a Catholic who deals with his/her own beliefs in the context of how the Catholic church actually holds the faith, everything works much better. The voices that act as if these things are simply matters of argument about scripture and that’s all are not helpful.

########

I have long ago given up trying to convince my fellow Christians that the Catholic Church’s dogmas can be shown explicitly in Scripture. I still maintain that there is no dogma that *violates* Scripture, but my fellow Catholics here, and in other fora, who continue to try to answer Protestant objections “on their terms” (that is defending Catholic dogma from Scripture alone) are not doing themselves or the Church any favors, IMO.

We simply have different mindsets, as point 3 (and point 6) points out. I’d also go so far as to say that, IMO, without any offense intended, it’s simply unreasonable to believe that everything God wants us to know about His Son’s revelation is contained in a book.

Indeed, in closing, I’d submit that the point of the Incarnation was not only to provide us with a bridge between us and the Infinite, but also to show us clearly, once and for all, how God expects us to come to him, to whit: Through the mystical body of Christ, the Church. IOW, the Incarnation was not just a one time event, but Christ lives, mysteriously, even today, in His Body. We can meet Him, alive today, and learn about Him and “who He was/is”, and “what does He want from me” through this Body, literally in the faithful. This is the method that Christ proposed then, and it’s still in existence today.

We meet Him, not as some incredible vision or in our “feelings” or imaginations, but as a real, concrete human being, our friends, co-workers, family, etc. This is the point of the Incarnation, I believe, and so debates about theology, while important in their own right, are not truly the way we discover Christ present in our lives. They can become a distraction to the true Encounter that changes lives.

Through this method, the Incarnation, and not through theological debates, we can and do meet Christ exactly as His disciples met him on the road to Emmaus. In our reality, now. Christ became fully human not to show us how flawed we are, but to allow us to become as fully human as He was/is. Not that we become Christ (God), but that in our imitation of Him, with His help, we can, for however brief a time in a day, every day, “become Him for others”. This is what “witness” means, IMO. This is how Christianity works, grows and spreads. Again, not (at least not ultimately) through theological debates, but through an encounter with a living Presence.

The evidence of this is simply in one’s own personal conversion experience. Most were not “convinced” to become Christian, to live as a Christian, by reading the Bible or debating theology, or by some mystical vision. Ultimately, most converted because of someone they MET, a real PERSON, someone, who was “Christ for them” at that moment in time.

It truly is a different way of thinking.


14 posted on 12/12/2009 8:16:06 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: Miss Marple

FYI, Hahn and Grodi are converts, but Madrid is a cradle Catholic.

I understand what you’re saying about them, though, and somewhat agree. I think it’s an effort to combat the “Catholics don’t know the Bible” attitude one finds among fundamentalist Protestant types, but is probably, as you say, counter-productive.

Fr. Groeschel’s approach is probably better. Mother Angelica was very good also. Just lay out the faith as it is, and people will find their way to embrace it.


15 posted on 12/12/2009 8:20:47 AM PST by B Knotts (Calvin Coolidge Republican)
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To: FourtySeven

I think you’re correct. Furthermore, I’d say that it is our sense of mystery (shared with the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics, who emphasize it even more) that is the central difference between Catholics and Protestants. From there, all the other differences have developed.

In recent years, this centrality of mystery has been deemphasized in the Western Church, and has caused all sorts of problems. The Holy Father is leading us towards a reembrace of the mysterious.


16 posted on 12/12/2009 8:28:00 AM PST by B Knotts (Calvin Coolidge Republican)
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To: FourtySeven

I agree that there are important aspects of

Christ’s Incarnation

that God would have us learn from one another as parts of His Body, The Church.

However, I’m fiercely still SOLA SCRIPTURA.

I do not AT ALL find any foundation in any convincing place or way to any of the extra Marian stuff. I just don’t.

I think I’ll charitably stop there.

Thanks for your kind msg.


17 posted on 12/12/2009 9:09:50 AM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED)
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To: Quix
However, I’m fiercely still SOLA SCRIPTURA.

I do not AT ALL find any foundation in any convincing place or way to any of the extra Marian stuff. I just don’t.

So you embrace that which is not in Scripture yet reject that which IS in Scripture.

18 posted on 12/12/2009 10:08:35 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Quite the opposite.

That’s YOUR construction on things.

It’s NOT mine.


19 posted on 12/12/2009 10:10:44 AM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED)
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To: A.A. Cunningham; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; Gamecock

The Marian stuff is NOT REMOTELY in Scripture.

Building Midevil skyscraper castles on one toothpick

is NOT remotely my construction on reality.


20 posted on 12/12/2009 10:13:04 AM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED)
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To: NYer
4. Catholic Answers’ apologists answer a huge number of marriage related questions. It’s simply quite extraordinary. Sometimes half the questions offered to a Catholic Answers apologist are marriage related. Is there a better place to work these things out than the radio? The impression this leaves with a Protestant is poor.

So, this person listend on one day and judges the entire show based on one episode? They address way more topics than just marriage on that show.

21 posted on 12/12/2009 12:35:45 PM PST by al_c (http://www.blowoutcongress.com)
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To: B Knotts

You know, that’s odd because I was certain Madrid was a convert. I wonder how I got that idea? Thanks for the information!

Anyway, my point is still the same. I do understand how pleased people are to become Catholic (I myself share that feeling, being a convert), but too much smugness will keep some people from investigating the Church.


22 posted on 12/12/2009 2:57:44 PM PST by Miss Marple
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To: netmilsmom

Yes, I have found it on Protestant stations too, and its no more effective there than on Catholic stations. It’s off-putting to seekers.

Hey, I could give chaper and verse of a lot of Protestant programs I used to watch. I still say that smugness doesn’t produce converts, regardless of how right you think you sre.


23 posted on 12/12/2009 3:12:46 PM PST by Miss Marple
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To: Miss Marple

But that’s my original point.
Catholic radio is not looking to convert. It’s by Catholics FOR Catholics. We believe in Free Will. We also believe that other Christians go to heaven. We give apologetics but basically, it’s your Free Will to accept it. We are not looking to recruit as our salvation is not dependent on it.

That is a very foreign concept to Non-Catholics. Catholic radio, unlike other Christian stations, is for us.


24 posted on 12/12/2009 3:42:58 PM PST by netmilsmom (I am Ilk)
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To: netmilsmom

I am a Catholic convert. Are you making the case that the Church doesn’t care if it has converts?

I suppose if you don’t care if the rest of the world sees us as smug and legalistic people obsessed with rules, there’s nothing I can say.

And if Catholic radio is only for Catholics, then why does Marcus Grodi spend his time showcasing people who have converted?


25 posted on 12/13/2009 3:56:36 AM PST by Miss Marple
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To: Miss Marple; NYer

>>Are you making the case that the Church doesn’t care if it has converts?<<

I’m making the case the Catholic Radio doesn’t care. It’s for Catholics.

I’m telling you that converting people is not what it’s for. And the reason why it has programs about converts is a pride thing. They may hope that people convert, but it’s also showing how we are right. FReepers make that same mistake. Some FReepers think that NYer’s threads about converts are trying to snatch Protestants away. The Church handles potential converts differently than other churches.

Sometimes it’s just that we are proud that someone found the Truth.

My husband is a convert. I didn’t MAKE him convert. I never put a bit of pressure on him, Prayed, put a green scapular under his mattress and showed him that the Catholic Church was the way. We don’t beat anyone over the head with our faith.


26 posted on 12/13/2009 6:03:53 AM PST by netmilsmom (I am Ilk)
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