The Perils of Celibacy: Clerical Celibacy and Marriage in Early Protestant Perspective

Social Science Research Network ^ | John Witte Jr

[Campion]

Should read “at least one polygamous marriage”

[the_conscience]

Moral equivalence.

[Notwithstanding]

Lifelong anything is impractical and unnatural.

But that does not make it ultimately harmful to the Church.

[Just mythoughts]

The "men can't be expected to live this way; let's bend the rules" argument is the same one made by the early Mormons on behalf of polygamy. Check out the numbers on adultery among Protestant clergy. It ain't pretty.

Which sin is greater to commit adultery against a wife or commit idolatry against the Heavenly Father. IICorinthians 11:2-4

[Petronski]

I don't believe we would find any catholic Christian in any Christian denomination that would hold to this heresy.

You haven't listed a heresy.

[Campion]

No, a flat denial that your “remedy” really fixes the problem, which is called “sin”.

[the_conscience]

BTW, Martin Luther managed to see his way clear to performing at least polygamous marriage.

Ad Hom. Has nothing to do the with the arguments presented.

[Campion]

One is the image of the other, according to Scripture.

[Petronski]

Moral equivalence.

You missed the point entirely. Or perhaps you're avoiding it.

[the_conscience]

I did.

[Campion]

Has everything to do with it. The Reformers’ understanding of sexuality and human nature was warped.

[Petronski]

You don’t seem to know the meaning of the word.

[the_conscience]

No, a flat denial that your “remedy” really fixes the problem, which is called “sin”.

No argument was made about a "fix". It's a theological problem.

[Notwithstanding]

You made the (very weak) argument that Roman celibacy causes sexual sin.

I simply noted that your argument cannot withstand scrutiny given the higher incidence of sexual sin among non-celibate protestant clergy.

I certainly am not excusing any sexual sin.

[the_conscience]

The author gives some of the Protestant principles (and Augustine) of sexuality and human nature so show where these principles are warped.

[Notwithstanding]

Your article holds Luther out as a virtuous/wise figure in the celibacy and marriage debate.

Ceratinly it is relevant to note Luther’s major failings/weaknesses in this same area.

[CharlesWayneCT]

What evidence do you present to support your claim that it is a canard, and nonsense? Do you think that happily married men are as likely to have homosexual pedophilic relationships with young boys as self-proclaimed celibate men?

I’m not arguing that the point is proven, just arguing that your post disproves it. It seems a rational idea to explore, in my opinion, not one to be dismissed flippantly.

On the other hand, I liked the article more for how it relates to another topic that came up recently at FR, wherein we discussed what makes the “original church” the original church, and whether there are changes in canon such that some splinter of the church may better claim the roots of the church than the Catholic church.

I hadn’t thought about the change in celibacy rules as one of those examples, but this article raises that point. Not sure what to make of the article’s claims about priests being in a higher class of being than the lay-folks. Hadn’t really thought about that or studied it.

[Ronaldus Magnus]

The reformers had already argued that pastors, like everyone else, should be married

I wonder what these early reformers would have throught about the fact that the vast majority of their Lutheren theological decendants now belong to synods that permit women and active homosexuals to be clergy. I dare say that even old Martin Luther himself would have remained a commited celebate Catholic to avoid this apostacy from forever being attached to his name!

[Petronski]

Do you think that happily married men are as likely to have homosexual pedophilic relationships with young boys as self-proclaimed celibate men?

Why do you confine your question to the subgroup of "happily-married men" rather than the larger overall population of "married men?"

[CharlesWayneCT]

The "men can't be expected to live this way; let's bend the rules"

Which rules are those? It seems the heart of the debate whether God actually has a rule that men are better off celibate, and that marriage is a lower form of existance.

We can argue that point, but your summary begs the question, assuming the rightness of your side.

Of course, it was Paul who made the argument you seem to ridicule.