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The Importance of Hell [4 reasons]
Redeemer.com ^ | Undated | Tim Keller

Posted on 12/16/2009 7:16:21 PM PST by Silly

There are plenty of people today who don't believe in the Bible's teaching on everlasting punishment, even those who do find it an unreal and a remote concept.

In 2003 a research group discovered 64% of Americans expect to go to heaven when they die, but less than 1% think they might go to hell. Not only are there plenty of people today who don't believe in the Bible's teaching on everlasting punishment, even those who do find it an unreal and a remote concept. Nevertheless, it is a very important part of the Christian faith, for several reasons.

1. It is important because Jesus taught about it more than all other Biblical authors put together. Jesus speaks of "eternal fire and punishment" as the final abode of the angels and human beings who have rejected God (Matthew 25:41,46) He says that those who give into sin will be in danger of the "fire of hell" (Matthew 5:22; 18:8-9.) The word Jesus uses for 'hell' is Gehenna, a valley in which piles of garbage were daily burned as well as the corpses of those without families who could bury them. In Mark 9:43 Jesus speaks of a person going to "hell [gehenna], where 'their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' " Jesus is referring to the maggots that live in the corpses on the garbage heap. When all the flesh is consumed, the maggots die. Jesus is saying, however, that the spiritual decomposition of hell never ends, and that is why 'their worm does not die.'

If Jesus, the Lord of Love and Author of Grace spoke about hell more often, and in a more vivid, blood-curdling manner than anyone else, it must be a crucial truth. In Matthew 10:28 Jesus says, "Do not fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." He is speaking to disciples, some of whom will eventually be tortured, sawn in half, flayed and burned alive. Yet, he says, that is a picnic compared to hell. Clearly, for Jesus hell was a real place, since he said that after judgment day people would experience it in their bodies. Hell is a place not only of physical but also of spiritual misery.

Jesus constantly depicted hell as painful fire and "outer darkness" (Matt 25:30; cf. Jude 6,7,13,) a place of unimaginably terrible misery and unhappiness. If Jesus, the Lord of Love and Author of Grace spoke about hell more often, and in a more vivid, blood-curdling manner than anyone else, it must be a crucial truth. But why was it so important to Jesus?

2. It is important because it shows how infinitely dependent we are on God for everything. Virtually all commentators and theologians believe that the Biblical images of fire and outer darkness are metaphorical. (Since souls are in hell right now, without bodies, how could the fire be literal, physical fire?) Even Jonathan Edwards pointed out that the Biblical language for hell was symbolic, but, he added, 'when metaphors are used in Scripture about spiritual things . . . they fall short of the literal truth." (from "The Torments of Hell are Exceeding Great" in volume 14 of the Yale edition of Edwards works.) To say that the Scriptural image of hell-fire is not wholly literal is of no comfort whatsoever. The reality will be far worse than the image. What, then, are the 'fire' and 'darkness' symbols for? They are vivid ways to describe what happens when we lose the presence of God. Darkness refers to the isolation, and fire to the disintegration of being separated from God. Away from the favor and face of God, we literally, horrifically, and endlessly fall apart.

In the teaching of Jesus the ultimate condemnation from the mouth of God is 'depart from me.' That is remarkable--to simply be away from God is the worst thing that can happen to us! Why? We were originally created to walk in God's immediate presence (Genesis 2.) In one sense, of course, God is everywhere and upholds everything. Only in him do we all speak and move and have our being (Acts 17:28.) In that sense, then, it is impossible to depart from the Lord; even hell cannot exist unless God upholds it. But the Bible says sin excludes us from God's 'face' (Isaiah 59:2.) All the life, joy, love, strength, and meaning we have looked for and longed for is found in his face (Psalm 16:11)-that is, in his favor, presence, fellowship, and pleasure.

Sin removes us from that aspect of his power that sustains and supports us. It is to us as water is to a fish-away from it our life slowly ebbs away. That is what has been happening to us throughout history. That is why, for Paul, the everlasting fire and destruction of hell is 'exclusion from the presence of the Lord." (2 Thessalonians 1:9.) Separation from God and his blessings forever is the reality to which all the symbols point. For example, when Jesus speaks being 'destroyed' in hell, the word used is apollumi, meaning not to be annihilated out of existence but to be 'totaled' and ruined so as to be useless for its intended purpose.

The image of 'gehenna' and 'maggots' means decomposition. Once a body is dead it loses its beauty and strength and coherence, it begins to break into its constituent parts, to stink and to disintegrate. So what is a 'totaled' human soul? It does not cease to exist, but rather becomes completely incapable of all the things a human soul is for--reasoning, feeling, choosing, giving or receiving love or joy. Why? Because the human soul was built for worshipping and enjoying the true God, and all truly human life flows from that. In this world, all of humanity, even those who have turned away from God, still are supported by 'kindly providences' or 'common grace' (Acts 14:16-17; Psalm 104:10-30; James 1:17) keeping us still capable of wisdom, love, joy, and goodness. But when we lose God's supportive presence all together, the result is hell.

3. It is important because it unveils the seriousness and danger of living life for yourself. In Romans 1-2 Paul explains that God, in his wrath against those who reject him, 'gives them up' to the sinful passions of their hearts. Commentators (cf. Douglas Moo) point out that this cannot mean God impels people to sin, since in Ephesians 4:19 it is said that sinners give themselves up to their sinful desires. It means that the worst (and fairest) punishment God can give a person is to allow them their sinful hearts' deepest desire.

What is that? The desire of the sinful human heart is for independence. We want to choose and go our own way (Isaiah 53:6.) This is no idle 'wandering from the path.' As Jeremiah puts it, 'No one repents . . . each pursues his own course like a horse charging into battle. (8:6)' (We want to get away from God-but, as we have seen, this is the very thing that is most destructive to us. Cain is warned not to sin because sin is slavery. (Genesis 4:7; John 8:34.) It destroys your ability to choose, love, enjoy. Sin also brings blindness-the more you reject the truth about God the more incapable you are of perceiving any truth about yourself or the world (Isaiah 29:9-10; Romans 1:21.)

What is hell, then? It is God actively giving us up to what we have freely chosen-to go our own way, be our own "the master of our fate, the captain of our soul," to get away from him and his control. It is God banishing us to regions we have desperately tried to get into all our lives. J.I.Packer writes: "Scripture sees hell as self-chosen . . . [H]ell appears as God's gesture of respect for human choice. All receive what they actually chose, either to be with God forever, worshipping him, or without God forever, worshipping themselves." (J.I.Packer, Concise Theology p.262-263.) If the thing you most want is to worship God in the beauty of his holiness, then that is what you will get (Ps 96:9-13.) If the thing you most want is to be your own master, then the holiness of God will become an agony, and the presence of God a terror you will flee forever (Rev 6:16; cf. Is 6:1-6.)

Why is this so extremely important to stress in our preaching and teaching today? The idea of hell is implausible to people because they see it as unfair that infinite punishment would be meted out for comparably minor, finite false steps (like not embracing Christianity.) Also, almost no one knows anyone (including themselves) that seem to be bad enough to merit hell. But the Biblical teaching on hell answers both of these objections. First, it tells us that people only get in the afterlife what they have most wanted-either to have God as Savior and Master or to be their own Saviors and Masters. Secondly, it tells us that hell is a natural consequence. Even in this world it is clear that self-centeredness rather than God-centeredness makes you miserable and blind. The more self-centered, self-absorbed, self-pitying, and self-justifying people are, the more breakdowns occur, relationally, psychologically, and even physically. They also go deeper into denial about the source of their problems.

On the other hand, a soul that has decided to center its life on God and his glory moves toward increasing joy and wholeness. We can see both of these 'trajectories' even in this life. But if, as the Bible teaches, our souls will go on forever, then just imagine where these two kinds of souls will be in a billion years. Hell is simply one's freely chosen path going on forever. We wanted to get away from God, and God, in his infinite justice, sends us where we wanted to go.

In the parable of Luke 16:19ff, Jesus tells us of a rich man who goes to hell and who is now in torment and horrible thirst because of the fire (v.24) But there are interesting insights into what is going on in his soul. He urges Abraham to send a messenger to go and warn his still-living brothers about the reality of hell. Commentators have pointed out that this is not a gesture of compassion, but rather an effort at blame-shifting. He is saying that he did not have a chance, he did not have adequate information to avoid hell. That is clearly his point, because Abraham says forcefully that people in this life have been well-informed through the Scriptures. It is intriguing to find exactly what we would expect-even knowing he is in hell and knowing God has sent him there, he is deeply in denial, angry at God, unable to admit that it was a just decision, wishing he could be less miserable (v.24) but in no way willing to repent or seek the presence of God.

I believe one of the reasons the Bible tells us about hell is so it can act like 'smelling salts' about the true danger and seriousness of even minor sins. However, I've found that only stressing the symbols of hell (fire and darkness) in preaching rather than going into what the symbols refer to (eternal, spiritual decomposition) actually prevents modern people from finding hell a deterrent. Some years ago I remember a man who said that talk about the fires of hell simply didn't scare him, it seemed too far-fetched, even silly. So I read him lines from C.S. Lewis:

Hell begins with a grumbling mood, always complaining, always blaming others . . . but you are still distinct from it. You may even criticize it in yourself and wish you could stop it. But there may come a day when you can no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood or even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself, going on forever like a machine. It is not a question of God 'sending us' to hell. In each of us there is something growing, which will BE Hell unless it is nipped in the bud.

To my surprise he got very quiet and said, "Now that scares me to death." He almost immediately began to see that hell was a) perfectly fair and just, and b) something that he realized he might be headed for if he didn't change. If we really want skeptics and non-believers to be properly frightened by hell, we cannot simply repeat over and over that 'hell is a place of fire.' We must go deeper into the realities that the Biblical images represent. When we do so, we will find that even secular people can be affected.

We run from the presence of God and therefore God actively gives us up to our desire (Romans 1:24, 26.) Hell is therefore a prison in which the doors are first locked from the inside by us and therefore are locked from the outside by God (Luke 16:26.) Every indication is that those doors continue to stay forever barred from the inside. Though every knee and tongue in hell knows that Jesus is Lord (Philippians 2:10-11,) no one can seek or want that Lordship without the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3.This is why we can say that no one goes to hell who does not choose both to go and to stay there. What could be more fair than that?

4. The doctrine of hell is important because it is the only way to know how much Jesus loved us and how much he did for us. In Matthew 10:28 Jesus says that no physical destruction can be compared with the spiritual destruction of hell, of losing the presence of God. But this is exactly what happened to Jesus on the cross-he was forsaken by the Father (Matthew 27:46.) In Luke 16:24 the rich man in hell is desperately thirsty (v.24) and on the cross Jesus said "I thirst" (John 19:28.) The water of life, the presence of God, was taken from him. The point is this. Unless we come to grips with this "terrible" doctrine, we will never even begin to understand the depths of what Jesus did for us on the cross. His body was being destroyed in the worst possible way, but that was a flea bite compared to what was happening to his soul. When he cried out that his God had forsaken him he was experiencing hell itself. But consider--if our debt for sin is so great that it is never paid off there, but our hell stretches on for eternity, then what are we to conclude from the fact that Jesus said the payment was "finished" (John 19:30) after only three hours? We learn that what he felt on the cross was far worse and deeper than all of our deserved hells put together.

And this makes emotional sense when we consider the relationship he lost. If a mild acquaintance denounces you and rejects you--that hurts. If a good friend does the same--that hurts far worse. However, if your spouse walks out on you saying, "I never want to see you again," that is far more devastating still. The longer, deeper, and more intimate the relationship, the more tortuous is any separation. But the Son's relationship with the Father was beginningless and infinitely greater than the most intimate and passionate human relationship. When Jesus was cut off from God he went into the deepest pit and most powerful furnace, beyond all imagining. He experienced the full wrath of the Father. And he did it voluntarily, for us.

Fairly often I meet people who say, "I have a personal relationship with a loving God, and yet I don't believe in Jesus Christ at all." Why, I ask? "My God is too loving to pour out infinite suffering on anyone for sin." But this shows a deep misunderstanding of both God and the cross. On the cross, God HIMSELF, incarnated as Jesus, took the punishment. He didn't visit it on a third party, however willing.

So the question becomes: what did it cost your kind of god to love us and embrace us? What did he endure in order to receive us? Where did this god agonize, cry out, and where were his nails and thorns? The only answer is: "I don't think that was necessary." But then ironically, in our effort to make God more loving, we have made him less loving. His love, in the end, needed to take no action. It was sentimentality, not love at all. The worship of a god like this will be at most impersonal, cognitive, and ethical. There will be no joyful self-abandonment, no humble boldness, no constant sense of wonder. We could not sing to him "love so amazing, so divine, demands my soul, my life, my all." Only through the cross could our separation from God be removed, and we will spend all eternity loving and praising God for what he has done (Rev 5:9-14.)

And if Jesus did not experience hell itself for us, then we ourselves are devalued. In Isaiah, we are told, "The results of his suffering he shall see, and shall be satisfied" (Isaiah 53:11). This is a stupendous thought. Jesus suffered infinitely more than any human soul in eternal hell, yet he looks at us and says, "It was worth it." What could make us feel more loved and valued than that? The Savior presented in the gospel waded through hell itself rather than lose us, and no other savior ever depicted has loved us at such a cost.

Conclusion The doctrine of hell is crucial-without it we can't understand our complete dependence on God, the character and danger of even the smallest sins, and the true scope of the costly love of Jesus. Nevertheless, it is possible to stress the doctrine of hell in unwise ways. Many, for fear of doctrinal compromise, want to put all the emphasis on God's active judgment, and none on the self-chosen character of hell. Ironically, as we have seen, this unBiblical imbalance often makes it less of a deterrent to non-believers rather than more of one. And some can preach hell in such a way that people reform their lives only out of a self-interested fear of avoiding consequences, not out of love and loyalty to the one who embraced and experienced hell in our place. The distinction between those two motives is all-important. The first creates a moralist, the second a born-again believer.

We must come to grips with the fact that Jesus said more about hell than Daniel, Isaiah, Paul, John, Peter put together. Before we dismiss this, we have to realize we are saying to Jesus, the pre-eminent teacher of love and grace in history, "I am less barbaric than you, Jesus--I am more compassionate and wiser than you." Surely that should give us pause! Indeed, upon reflection, it is because of the doctrine of judgment and hell that Jesus' proclamations of grace and love are so astounding.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Theology
KEYWORDS: afterlife; christianity; hell; jesus; salvation
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Jesus taught about hell more than all Biblical authors combined.

Here are four good reasons we should understand and believe what the Bible says about hell.

1 posted on 12/16/2009 7:16:24 PM PST by Silly
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To: Silly

Yes, Christ had the most to say about it.

Still you hear absolute IDIOTS, tell you that “hell is a state of mind”. LOL!

It’s a place and it is real.


2 posted on 12/16/2009 7:26:24 PM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Silly

I’m thinking that if St. Paul lived “in fear and trembling”,
then I should be a bit more circumspect about MY life.


3 posted on 12/16/2009 7:31:38 PM PST by G Larry (DNC is comprised of REGRESSIVES!)
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To: Silly

You and anyone that believes in a burning hell are full of sh!t.
You are totally missing the Bible’s point.


4 posted on 12/16/2009 7:32:06 PM PST by SeeRushToldU_So ( Go Braves! Braves are gone.)
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To: SeeRushToldU_So

So I’m guessing you didn’t read the article.


5 posted on 12/16/2009 7:33:15 PM PST by Silly ("Okay, I'm getting just a little sick of this bereaved chicken-widow crap!")
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To: nmh
Yes, Christ had the most to say about it.

Still you hear absolute IDIOTS, tell you that “hell is a state of mind”. LOL!

It’s a place and it is real.

Absolutely. The Bible is 100% accurate and cannot be questioned. Simple logic leads one to that conclusion. Anyone who thinks that the Bible is NOT 100% accurate isn't using logic.

Hell is where those who stand by man's logic, instead of the Bible's (and God's) logic go.

6 posted on 12/16/2009 7:42:07 PM PST by WondrousCreation (Science needs to be redefined as a CONSERVATIVE discipline.)
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To: Silly

Obviously, he didn’t.

But I did. And I thank you for posting it.


7 posted on 12/16/2009 7:42:14 PM PST by WhistlingPastTheGraveyard (Some men just want to watch the world burn.)
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To: Silly

bookmark


8 posted on 12/16/2009 7:52:18 PM PST by GOP Poet (Obama is an OLYMPIC failure.)
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To: SeeRushToldU_So
You and anyone that believes in a burning hell are full of sh!t. You are totally missing the Bible’s point.

Would you be able to fill us in on what the Bible's point is?

9 posted on 12/16/2009 7:54:30 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Calm_Cool_and_Elected

read this ping


10 posted on 12/16/2009 7:55:22 PM PST by Calm_Cool_and_Elected (Who is John Thompson?)
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To: Silly

“...don’t believe in the Bible’s teaching on everlasting punishment...”

.
They’ll believe it when they get there.


11 posted on 12/16/2009 8:02:57 PM PST by 353FMG (Save the Planet -- Eliminate Socialism)
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To: Silly

Here are some pretty scary descriptions of hell.

http://bibleprobe.com/Sister-Menendez-description-of-hell.htm

St. Teresa of Avila also was given the grace to visit hell and her accounts are also pretty terrifying.


12 posted on 12/16/2009 8:04:24 PM PST by diamond6 (Expose Planned Parenthood: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaTywSDmls)
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To: nmh
You also hear them say it's New Testament only. But they ignore...

And the penalty for sin and the cure...

And they ignore God's expectation, which is that we be perfect and holy. Wrongly thinking in their heart that if they are more good than sinful they can stand before a perfect holy God and survive.


13 posted on 12/16/2009 8:04:42 PM PST by DannyTN
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To: Silly

The more I’ve read about hell and its description, the more i believe that people (who will remember what they have done while alive - reference Lazarus and the Rich man) will be tormented not by anything physical, but mentally. By what they have done, what they have rejected, what they turned their back on and wanted no part of. Making it all the worse is knowing they could have accepted it but didn’t, and now it’s too late, and they are confronted with this reality and there is no second chance. They will see they were given multiple oportunities and remember all the chances they had, they cannot complain they only got one chance. God has given them what they actually wanted, existence without Him. For these people heaven would be cruel punishment, it would be hell. To be in a place you spent your whole life not preparing for, despising the kinds of things believers will do in Heaven, wanting to be in God’s presence and thanking Him, that would be torture to these folks. But so will be getting what they wanted. Eternal separation from God.


14 posted on 12/16/2009 8:08:33 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: G Larry
I’m thinking that if St. Paul lived “in fear and trembling”, then I should be a bit more circumspect about MY life.

I think a God who requires his most ardent followers to live "in fear and trembling" sounds more like his opposite number.
15 posted on 12/16/2009 8:09:35 PM PST by AnotherUnixGeek
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To: Secret Agent Man
the Rich man) will be tormented not by anything physical,

Remember, all the rich man wanted was one drop of water on his tongue. Sounds physical to me.
16 posted on 12/16/2009 8:13:34 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: AnotherUnixGeek

I’m sure you’re enjoying your life of no consequences for your actions......


17 posted on 12/16/2009 8:14:26 PM PST by G Larry (DNC is comprised of REGRESSIVES!)
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To: Silly

I still have an impossible time believing one aspect raised here and elsewhere.

The premise is that God respects your choice to reject him and lets you do so in hell. But I believe in an all merciful God. God, in his incomparable love, can’t possibly love me less than my parents do. God the Father is the ultimate parent.

Yet, my parents never “respected” my bad, ignorant, self-destructive choices. They continued always to try and help save me from my bad behavior. They never gave up on me ever, but always kept trying.

Am I to believe my loving God would give up on me to indulge greater foolish, stupid mistakes than even my mortal parents wouldn’t tacitly accept?

I refuse to accept this premise.


18 posted on 12/16/2009 8:14:37 PM PST by Freedom_Is_Not_Free (Depression Countdown: 48... 47... 46...)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free
Am I to believe my loving God would give up on me to indulge greater foolish, stupid mistakes than even my mortal parents wouldn’t tacitly accept?

I refuse to accept this premise.

Well, that is your whole problem -- it is "your" God who would never do that. You created a concept of a God to suit your beliefs. You aren't letting God to be bigger than you. You somehow expect that a God who you don't understand or agree with to not exist.

"Your" God is a God who doesn't disagree with you or offend you.

But God is a real person, with his own identity. You can't have a real relationship with a person who never disagrees with you.

God is who He is, whether we like it or not.

19 posted on 12/16/2009 8:22:08 PM PST by Silly ("Okay, I'm getting just a little sick of this bereaved chicken-widow crap!")
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To: Silly

In one of my computer science classes we programmed some artificial intelligences and we let them interact with each other day and night, for weeks.

After a while the subject of how they got there came up. "Who am I? Why am I here?" The usual stuff. At this point the possibility of a Supreme Being or God came up, and they argued about that a lot.

We decided not to make it easy on them by telling them the truth. We'd let them figure out for themselves, if they could, that their "gods" were nothing more than human computer science students doing a class project.

There was one guy who proposed that at the end, we take all the "intelligences" that didn't believe in us, and put them on a laptop, and make them feel excruciating pain for however long they lasted. We all agreed that sounded like fun, so we did it.


20 posted on 12/16/2009 8:22:19 PM PST by Nick Danger (Free cheese is found only in mousetraps)
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To: AnotherUnixGeek
For when Paul wrote to the Corinthians and reported that Titus had been encouraged and refreshed by their reception of him, he then went on to say that the Corinthian Christians received him with 'fear and trembling'! (2 Cor. 7:15) implying proper respect.

And Paul used the same verbage in working out our salvation with fear and trembling. Respectful and thankful for what our salvation cost.

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Phil. 2:12, 13, KJV)

We are told not to fear. Fear not! And God is working in us as we are told. That's good news, not bad. Perfect love (God) cast out fear.
21 posted on 12/16/2009 8:28:45 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

Well, I don’t want to get into it deeply here, but before Jesus’ death, the waiting places for where believers and unbelievers were being kept were not Heaven and Hell, but “abrahams’ bosom” and “hades”. Abraham’s bosom isn’t heaven because Christ’s sacrifice was not yet made, and those believers’ were not yet pure, the price had not yet been paid (they were ‘on Christ’s credit’ at this point, the best way to describe it).

Anyway, hell appears to be a temporary holding place, for it gets thrown into the lake of fire along with death. The metaphor here is confusing if it really is a physical lake or if it’s symbolic. I tend to think it’s symbolic as a form of final, eternal judgment and banishment, and separation from God and His people.

The other thing to note is that hell is described a bunch of different ways. “A place of outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The fire cannot be a physical fire, there is no light in a place of outer darkness. There is no physical thing such as invisible fire. We aren’t talking about radiation on some non-visible spectrum. They will not be in a cosmic microwave. They will be alone. They will have no sustenance, no water, no mercy, no forgiveness.


22 posted on 12/16/2009 8:34:05 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: Silly
Wow, one of the best and most enlightening pieces I have ever read on the topic. In fact, for some time I've been leaning toward seeing Hell as a place of annihilation (i.e., you are destroyed) as opposed to eternal suffering. This article has made me really rethink that concept.
23 posted on 12/16/2009 8:42:47 PM PST by piytar (Go Away RNC, Steele, Graham, and the rest of the lib-loser GOP. WE'RE TAKING OUR PARTY BACK!)
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To: nmh
Those who deny that there is a hell also deny God's grace and God... they want to avoid God at all cost.....
People want to argue that man has free will, not true, the only one who really had " Free will " was Adam... since then, man has been born into sin, therefore, a slave to sin unto he hears the truth ( Jesus Christ ) and the truth will set you free.

24 posted on 12/16/2009 8:50:52 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (There is no civility in the way the Communist/Marxist want to destroy the USA)
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To: Secret Agent Man

I was commenting on having no water - doesn’t sound like a place of physical comfort. There are some books on hell where some claim they went to for a bit only to be returned here. Bottom line - it ain’t pretty for a few minutes - forget about eternity. And, yes, you are alone - so much for some being flippant w/’at least my friends will be there’.


25 posted on 12/16/2009 9:01:34 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free
When you demand God to be merciful or that God is obligated to be merciful, then, it's not mercy anymore.....
God is not obligated to be merciful to anyone, God does so out of his own free will and love for us........
The same thing with grace, grace is not grace if we think we have to work for it, then, if it's by works, then, it's not grace anymore.....
We can not point our finger to GOD and demand and shout to him that he would be merciful to us.
How can the clay say to the potter " why have you made me like this " ??
Now ? if we admit we are wrong, or have sinned, and come to him humbly and ask him to have mercy, and forgive us, then, God is ready to forgive us.... he wants to forgive us, but, we can't come to him as spoiled brats and demand it from him.
Another point to make, do you actually believe that God would allow one of his beloved children to go out and do what ever he or she wants without and consequences ?
Do you actually think God would not correct us of some kind of behavior that is not pleasing to him ? the bible tells us that he chastises us as a loving father would do...
26 posted on 12/16/2009 9:08:26 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (There is no civility in the way the Communist/Marxist want to destroy the USA)
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To: presently no screen name

To be honest, when I said ‘alone’ I meant more that the person was going to be separated from God, not necessarily isolated from everyone else there. Since the bible describes it as a place filled with weeping and gnashing of teeth, it would sound like you aren’t alone from the other people in hell, at least some of them. Either way, it won’t be of any comfort to anyone to see anyone else there. They can’t do anything for you, you can’t do anything for them. If anything they will remind you of your own rejection of God while on earth.


27 posted on 12/16/2009 9:09:13 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: presently no screen name
'" fear and trembling " .....
Proper respect, not being insincere , horse play, or jokingly, but with being of a sober mind.
28 posted on 12/16/2009 9:13:22 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (There is no civility in the way the Communist/Marxist want to destroy the USA)
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To: American Constitutionalist

God knows the heart - there’s no fooling Him. We work out our salvation as we are renewing our mind.


29 posted on 12/16/2009 9:16:09 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Secret Agent Man

bttt


30 posted on 12/16/2009 9:19:48 PM PST by aberaussie
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To: Secret Agent Man

One of satan’s tactics is ‘there is no hell’. Since the soul never dies, it’s going somewhere for eternity - and there are only two choices.


31 posted on 12/16/2009 9:20:04 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name
" God knows the heart - there’s no fooling Him. We work out our salvation as we are renewing our mind. "

Man looks at the outward appearance, but, God looks at the heart.
We do not know what God is doing in a person's heart, not even the person themselves :
( wax on , wax off, Danielson, paint the fence )
it's like a butter fly in a cocoon .
We renew our minds by washing our minds with the word of God, putting on the mind of Christ.
32 posted on 12/16/2009 9:26:17 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (There is no civility in the way the Communist/Marxist want to destroy the USA)
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To: American Constitutionalist

Yes!


33 posted on 12/16/2009 9:30:04 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free
HEY FREE ? ..... one day ? you will look back and realize you won't hold that view anymore.... GOD will work on your heart by the Holy Spirit, that is ? if you let him .....
Actually ? I do not believe that is what you really believe, I believe ? you might have been hurt in the past, and in some way, that is your way of dealing with it... FREE ? turn all your pain and cares unto GOD, he is there ready to listen to you, if only you come to him in humility and a sincere heart.
34 posted on 12/16/2009 9:30:21 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (There is no civility in the way the Communist/Marxist want to destroy the USA)
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To: Silly
HELL: Eternal Torment or Complete Annihilation?
35 posted on 12/16/2009 9:56:00 PM PST by Sir Gawain
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To: G Larry
I’m sure you’re enjoying your life of no consequences for your actions......

And I'm sure that my life, which I do my utmost to appreciate and enjoy, is at least as moral as yours, which you presumably spend cringing in terror of some slip-up which will send you off to an eternity of torment.
36 posted on 12/16/2009 10:55:21 PM PST by AnotherUnixGeek
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To: presently no screen name
We are told not to fear. Fear not! And God is working in us as we are told. That's good news, not bad. Perfect love (God) cast out fear.

Thanks for this clarification - respect and thankfulness are what we should all feel. Fear and trembling...no.
37 posted on 12/16/2009 10:58:29 PM PST by AnotherUnixGeek
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To: Silly
Great post. I really appreciate Tim Keller and his ministry. I love that he doesn't "write off the city" as hopeless and how he encourages Christians to engage the culture without compromising theologically.
38 posted on 12/16/2009 11:36:25 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free
The premise is that God respects your choice to reject him and lets you do so in hell.

Why reject Him when you know He loves you? God says He wants no one to perish. If they do, it's not because of God - He gave us a Savior. He did it all for us, our part is to accept His salvation and then renew your mind by reading His Word.

How can anyone expect to have something, if they reject it? It doesn't make sense. We are all sinners; yet saved by grace through faith (believing God). It's a free gift and too awesome to pass up. There's a reason why it's called the Good News!

I believe in an all merciful God. God, in his incomparable love, can’t possibly love me less than my parents do.

You are right on!
39 posted on 12/16/2009 11:46:47 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free
Am I to believe my loving God would give up on me to indulge greater foolish, stupid mistakes than even my mortal parents wouldn’t tacitly accept? I refuse to accept this premise.

I have read that God gives up on no one, and sends no one to hell ... they send themselves.
40 posted on 12/17/2009 3:14:25 AM PST by mlizzy ("Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person" --Mother Teresa.)
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To: AnotherUnixGeek

Rather, I am comforted by the following:
Salvation-
John 3:5
Titus 3:5
Eph 4:23
I Cor 9:27 & 10:12
Hebrews 10:26
Philippians 2:12
2 Cor 5:10
Rom 2:6, 5:12, 8:24, 11:22
Col 2:23
2 Macabees 12:44-46 (not in KJV)

Penance-
Luke 3:8, 13:3, 24:47
Acts 2:38, 3:19, 8:21-22, 17:30
2 Cor 7:10
Matt 3:8
Ps 6:7
Jer 7:3

Confession-
John 20:23
Matt 16:19 & 18:18
2 Cor 5:18-20


41 posted on 12/17/2009 5:31:28 AM PST by G Larry (DNC is comprised of REGRESSIVES!)
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To: SeeRushToldU_So

Have you read enough of it to have a point? It is described several ways. A place where you are separated from God, a place of torment, a place where the worm dieth not, a deep fiery pit.

The Bibles point (on hell) is that you don’t want to go there.


42 posted on 12/17/2009 6:09:09 AM PST by RoadGumby (For God so loved the world)
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To: AnotherUnixGeek

Sophomoric reply. Fear is to respect, to know that someone is more powerful. Should you ‘fear’ your Creator, I would say a resounding ‘Yes!’. He is loving, and also just. It is just that should you fall short, that you not spend eternity with Him.

Yet you say that needing to have ‘fear and trembling’ makes God sound like his opposite number?

That opposite number requires nothing from you at all, except that you ignore God, refuse His Son. Is that you? I pray not. That opposite number HATES you, wishes you to die, not only here, but for eternity. He requires no ‘fear’ from you at all.

Accept Christ and work out your salvation wiith fear and trembling. He desires to lose not one.


43 posted on 12/17/2009 6:17:40 AM PST by RoadGumby (For God so loved the world)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

God WILL keep after you, but He also says that eventually He will let your heart harden and turn you over to a reprobate mind. That’s why it is so important to listen, to have the ears to hear, when He knocks on your heart.

That is the time to let Him in! Even a parent will eventually write off a prodigal. Allow the child to reap ALL that he has sown. Consider it a learning experience. Maybe that is what it takes, a broken, bottomed-out life, where there is no where else to look but up, to God and His Son, and ask for help and forgiveness.

Yes, God will let you run and eventually ruin your life. Be thankful for that.


44 posted on 12/17/2009 6:22:02 AM PST by RoadGumby (For God so loved the world)
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To: presently no screen name

Amen presently. He has so many lies that are twisted around things that would be nice to believe, lies twisted around what we want, and just twisted lies.

Prayer is a great weapon. Jesus used it during His 40 days in the wilderness.

As a fun aside, we should bear witness of Christ to others. Not only do I use prayer during temptations, but since those temptations are from satan, I will also withness to him. “Let me tell you of my Saviour!” I enjoy the visuals I get of him leaving mad.


45 posted on 12/17/2009 6:28:45 AM PST by RoadGumby (For God so loved the world)
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To: AnotherUnixGeek

Morals have naught to do with it, that is the point. It is only through the sacrifice, the Perfect Sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb of God, that Salvation can be received.

Live a good life, it is for naught for eternity.

With Christ, there is no slip up, Salvation is given, not removed. Having said that, it is not a green light to live as you would. A Saved person, born again in Christ, will WANT to live as it is written in the Bible.

“Slip-ups” happen, repentence happens, forgiveness asked and given. No loss of Salvation.

It is ONLY through the refusal of belief in Gods Son, who died to remove your sins, that you will be granted the access you deserve to hell.


46 posted on 12/17/2009 6:33:54 AM PST by RoadGumby (For God so loved the world)
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To: SeeRushToldU_So
You are totally missing the Bible’s point.

Since we are missing the point of all of Scripture, why don't you humor us and explain what it is we are missing?

47 posted on 12/17/2009 7:01:04 AM PST by Gamecock (A faith that requires a piece of cloth is not worth having.)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free
God never gives up on you throughout your entire life. He's always willing to accept you.

But He won't force you. It's gotta be your decision--not His.

Once your life ends, that's it. The time for decisions is over. The time for sentencing begins.

48 posted on 12/17/2009 8:21:16 AM PST by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: RoadGumby
Sophomoric reply. Fear is to respect, to know that someone is more powerful.

Fear is an emotion evoked by a threat to your safety and well-being. In fact, most people do not respect what they fear - they hate what they fear. You're actually claiming that the emotion we feel toward a violent murderer with the power to end our life is the same emotion we should feel toward God. Again, you sound like you're talking about God's opposite number.
49 posted on 12/17/2009 8:47:35 AM PST by AnotherUnixGeek
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To: AnotherUnixGeek

Fear is a word. A word that can have many uses, meanings, depending upon context and intent. Fear is the English word used. Go back to the Greek or Hebrew, which can be very rich in meanings, compared to our poorer language.

LOL at your analysis.


50 posted on 12/17/2009 8:50:35 AM PST by RoadGumby (For God so loved the world)
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