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Can Joel Osteen Help You Pay Your Bills?
CNN ^ | 12/18/09 | Christine Romans

Posted on 12/19/2009 6:37:28 PM PST by marshmallow

Houston, Texas (CNN) -- Joel Osteen strides into the former Compaq Center. Some 20,000 people are standing and singing. Purple lights softly pulse across the ceiling, and mist floats around two giant screens flashing words to the songs.

It's not a pulpit but a podium. It's not an altar but a stage. There is no cross. Instead a huge globe spins, and two massive bubbling creeks flank the stage. A lighting system softens distant corners of the massive arena and spreads colored light and smoke in strategic spots. Somehow, the space that will hold 40,000-plus on Sunday morning doesn't feel like a sports arena.

In the control room, producers watch multiple camera angles and feeds.

Smiling broadly, Osteen bounds up the few stairs to the stage, closes his eyes, lifts his hands and leads a prayer.

"God, I'm going to start this week off in faith. Expecting your goodness. Expecting to have a blessed and a prosperous week. Amen. Well, God bless you. Give him your very best today."

Welcome to Sunday morning at Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas. It's reportedly the nation's largest congregation and probably one of the most diverse places in America. One third of these churchgoers are Hispanic, one-third African-American and a quarter white. There are dozens of nationalities.

Osteen will give this sermon twice. He later said he knows immediately which segments to edit together into a sermon that will air on television to millions three weeks later.

Between services, he is signing his most recent book in the lobby, just past the bookstore that is one of the highest-grossing Christian bookstores in America.

His wife, Victoria, is co-pastor of the church and a best-selling author in her own right. In fact, the Osteens are not paid to be pastors at Lakewood, according to .............

(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events; Evangelical Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: moapb; tbnhucksters
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To: CyberAnt

To be informed: Just type in “Joel Osteen Fraud” in Google and see what you get!


51 posted on 12/19/2009 7:48:59 PM PST by Steelfish
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To: presently no screen name

I got my tagline from Rush.

He said it one day on his radio program - and it just stuck with me.

The liberals want to make “wants” as “rights”.

Good for the Judge .. he’s becoming more and more conservative every day!!


52 posted on 12/19/2009 7:50:12 PM PST by CyberAnt (Healthcare is not a RIGHT guaranteed by the Constitution)
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To: CyberAnt
I'm aware of the problems with what Tony Robbins teaches. Some of it is good advice about attitude, focus, developing goals and learning to master yourself. When he gets into the whole collective consciousness thing is where he goes off track.

Almost all of the current crop of life coaches go back to Napoleon Hill.

53 posted on 12/19/2009 7:50:49 PM PST by Richard Kimball (We're all criminals. They just haven't figured out what some of us have done yet.)
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To: marshmallow
I think the point is, the circumstances of life, good or bad, do not negate God's word. The circumstances in Iraq do not cancel out God's Word. NOTHING cancels out God's word.

His word says And now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.1 Corinthians 13:13 The circumstance in Iraq doesn't change that. Some things are hard to understand, but that's where we go to God, not condemn a fellow believer who God is using to encourage his sheep based on biblical truth.

54 posted on 12/19/2009 7:52:20 PM PST by Jim 0216
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To: marshmallow

They’re real Christians and real Christians know life is one difficult road. Read about St Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein). There was no “prosperity” when she died for the Faith in Auschwitz. Being a Christian doesn’t mean life is a cake walk.

Osteen=snakeoil. At least his wife hasn’t caused another scene on a airliner in first class this Christmas-time. yet.


55 posted on 12/19/2009 7:55:04 PM PST by Gapplega
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To: marshmallow; All

Sorry, it isn’t a “wish” .. IT’S A PROMISE FROM GOD.

The Gospel is everything GOD guaranteed it would be.

There are thousands of PROMISES that GOD gave to the church .. but sadly a lot of churches preach that those promises are not for YOU, or not for TODAY. But .. they would both be wrong.

It’s really sad that you don’t believe that God loves you and He wants you to prosper and be in health. The way you do that is that you remind God of his Word (which He commanded you to do). Then, you say back to God - thank you Father that you have prospered me and I’m in good health; even if I can’t see it manifesting yet.

I dare you!


56 posted on 12/19/2009 7:56:19 PM PST by CyberAnt (Healthcare is not a RIGHT guaranteed by the Constitution)
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To: tenger
I can't imagine a Christian church NOT having a cross. What would be the reason why they wouldn't have one?

Before I became born again I was involved in the new age beliefs for almost 30 years.

IMO any church that doesn't have a cross smacks of new ageism.

57 posted on 12/19/2009 7:57:05 PM PST by proudofthesouth (Political Correctness is being used to destroy our country/It's time to put CHRIST back in CHRISTmas)
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To: Steelfish; CyberAnt

The “Joel Osteen Fraud” is itself a fraud. I investigated it and these Pharisees come up with nothing substantial.


58 posted on 12/19/2009 7:59:23 PM PST by Jim 0216
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To: Jim 0216
I think the point is, the circumstances of life, good or bad, do not negate God's word. The circumstances in Iraq do not cancel out God's Word. NOTHING cancels out God's word. His word says And now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.1 Corinthians 13:13 The circumstance in Iraq doesn't change that. Some things are hard to understand, but that's where we go to God, not condemn a fellow believer who God is using to encourage his sheep based on biblical truth.

Amen to all of that but if you're preaching prosperity as an integral part of God's promise, what do you actually say to people who are anything but prosperous and are in fact in the depths of human misery?

"Your Best Life Now" is completely and utterly hollow for those on the front lines of Christianity, such as the beleaguered Christians in the Middle East or Pakistan. This is a living martyrdom and way of life which is entirely foreign to Osteen.

He's a pitchman to the American middle class. He has zero relevance to the Church Militant.

59 posted on 12/19/2009 7:59:53 PM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: marshmallow
This is certainly an interesting thread. I sense a lot of hostility and anger towards those that are considered "shysters." God certainly will sort out the hucksters from the genuine in due time. I suppose it's our duty to expose them as they come along. Joel Osteen will be judged by what he does and says, just as we all will be. As a teacher, he knows the admonitions to teach the whole Gospel.

The Bible says that we will be persecuted for what we believe. Iraqi Christians have been used as examples of this kind of persecution. Christians are being persecuted all over the world, and not just in Iraq. There's certainly enough persecution in the world even though it's not at all highlighted by any large media source...unfortunately.

So, perhaps we should direct our anger at ruthless dictators who persecute our fellow Believers. Pick a country in Africa or the Middle East. Then pray. Pray that they'll be bold and courageous in the face of intense persecution. Pray that they'll continue to lift Christ high and exalted.
60 posted on 12/19/2009 8:00:25 PM PST by tenger (If we don't stay on 'em, they'll get it wrong -Soucheray)
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To: CyberAnt

“It’s only jealously”

Yep. That’s about the size of it.

How can someone tell you how to prosper if they aren’t prospering themselves?

He has accepted a (relatively) small salary for the level of financial responsibility he has. He also donated a bunch of the money from one of his books to a charity.

As you said, it’s just jealousy.


61 posted on 12/19/2009 8:02:26 PM PST by webstersII
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To: Richard Kimball

I was curious about Tony Robbins too .. but then I discovered that when you have completed to a certain level (whatever that is), you are invited to a private weekend and there you are compelled to walk barefoot across a bed of hot coals; I saw the videos on TV years ago.

That’s when I was sure he was a cultist.


62 posted on 12/19/2009 8:04:34 PM PST by CyberAnt (Healthcare is not a RIGHT guaranteed by the Constitution)
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To: webstersII

Where do you think you got that Bible you carry to your church every Sunday? Mars? It was collated by the Catholic Church. You guys took out the parts that offended you, but it was collated long before Martin Luther ever took his first breath.


63 posted on 12/19/2009 8:04:43 PM PST by Gapplega
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To: marshmallow

“Catholics still have it and you can read it HERE”

I don’t care to read it.

I read all the other books myself and I made my own conclusions about the Priesthood of the Believer.


64 posted on 12/19/2009 8:05:21 PM PST by webstersII
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To: Steelfish

Hmmmm ..?? You might want to try “Google fraud” and see what you get!


65 posted on 12/19/2009 8:05:41 PM PST by CyberAnt (Healthcare is not a RIGHT guaranteed by the Constitution)
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To: marshmallow

He preaches God’s Word and you condemn him, like the Pharisees did Jesus. You have produced no scriptural grounds for your condemnation. The burden of proof, my friend is not on the accused, but on the accuser. So far, your accusations look hasty, unjust and close to being in league with the Accuser of the Brethren.


66 posted on 12/19/2009 8:06:27 PM PST by Jim 0216
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To: proudofthesouth
Many years ago I recall Erwin Lutzer of Moody Church fame saying that he had people tell him weekly to put up a huge cross in the church he serves, and he resisted because it smacks of idolatry. It shouldn't be the focus of our worship. I can see arguments both ways. But the very issue shouldn't divide churches either. Knowing hard-nosed, stubborn church folk, though, I suspect it has done just that over the years.

And a dying world look on in disbelief and scoff.
67 posted on 12/19/2009 8:07:42 PM PST by tenger (If we don't stay on 'em, they'll get it wrong -Soucheray)
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To: CyberAnt

The promises are real. I have prosperity and an inheitance that is beyond riches. My bank account is bone dry.

Ask the Apostle Paul how his finances were as he finished his life in prison
Yet he claimed riches that are unbelievable as well.
Just not monetary.

Dietrich Bonhoefer ... died in a NAZI prison camp.

Prosperity gospel is for the snake oil salesmen and their followers. They KNOW who they are.


68 posted on 12/19/2009 8:08:24 PM PST by HiramQuick (work harder ... welfare recipients depend on you!)
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To: CyberAnt
It’s really sad that you don’t believe that God loves you and He wants you to prosper and be in health.

"Don't believe that God loves me"??......LOL........that's a bit of a stretch, isn't it?

So why did Jesus prophesy to Peter that he would die a martyr's death?

That's not very healthy and prosperous, is it?

What about the book of Revelation? It sounds like there's big trouble in store at some stage for Christians.

You sure we're reading the same Scriptures?

69 posted on 12/19/2009 8:09:01 PM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: Quix

Amen brother. May God give us grace to see Him through the din of man’s confusion.


70 posted on 12/19/2009 8:09:57 PM PST by Jim 0216
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To: CyberAnt

I read one of his books. There was some good stuff about controlling your thought process, but then he started talking about the collective consciousness. That was when I knew he was off the deep end.


71 posted on 12/19/2009 8:13:41 PM PST by Richard Kimball (We're all criminals. They just haven't figured out what some of us have done yet.)
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To: Jim 0216
He preaches God’s Word and you condemn him, like the Pharisees did Jesus.

He preaches a gospel which is aimed specifically at Americans.

Large portions of the Christian Church would have no idea what he is talking about. All they want is their next meal......."give us this day our daily bread"..........prosperity???.............pfffffffffffffff!!

You have produced no scriptural grounds for your condemnation. The burden of proof, my friend is not on the accused, but on the accuser. So far, your accusations look hasty, unjust and close to being in league with the Accuser of the Brethren.

Actually I have.

You've disputed them but that's another story.

72 posted on 12/19/2009 8:14:27 PM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: az.b1bbomberfxr
Joel Osteen=Christianity light...and God's truth, hope, faith, and love according to His Word.

The Pharasees, who have always been confused about God's Word, have always hated it - not enough (of man's) religion for them.

73 posted on 12/19/2009 8:15:55 PM PST by Jim 0216
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To: tenger
I wear a cross most days. While I've read some of Erwin Lutzer’s books, when I see a cross in church or touch the one around my neck I don't think of idolatry - I think of the sacrifice that He made for us. It's that simple.
74 posted on 12/19/2009 8:16:27 PM PST by proudofthesouth (Political Correctness is being used to destroy our country/It's time to put CHRIST back in CHRISTmas)
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To: CyberAnt

Tell us Joel Osteen’s “Prosperity Gospel” is not an outright fraud. Here is Joel O in his own words and where another fraudster Rick Warren takes him on. Have fun.

For Osteen, Prosperity Gospel isn’t a pejorative term:

“Does God want us to be rich?” he asks. “When I hear that word rich, I think people say, ‘Well, he’s preaching that everybody’s going to be a millionaire.’ I don’t think that’s it.” Rather, he explains, “I preach that anybody can improve their lives. I think God wants us to be prosperous. I think he wants us to be happy. To me, you need to have money to pay your bills. I think God wants us to send our kids to college. I think he wants us to be a blessing to other people. But I don’t think I’d say God wants us to be rich. It’s all relative, isn’t it?”

On the other side is the guy whose church rounds out the “largest four” list:
“This idea that God wants everybody to be wealthy?”, [Rick] Warren snorts. “There is a word for that: baloney. It’s creating a false idol. You don’t measure your self-worth by your net worth. I can show you millions of faithful followers of Christ who live in poverty. Why isn’t everyone in the church a millionaire?”


75 posted on 12/19/2009 8:16:39 PM PST by Steelfish
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To: marshmallow

Is he telling the congregation what it yearns to hear? I tried to listen to him once, but my mind started wandering off in a hurry.


76 posted on 12/19/2009 8:20:04 PM PST by Theodore R.
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To: marshmallow

No, you’ve only offered something from something called the Book of Wisdom, whatever that is. Your arguments, as the Pharisees in Jesus’ day, have not been scripturally based.


77 posted on 12/19/2009 8:21:53 PM PST by Jim 0216
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To: Jim 0216

Only Jesus can be all things to all people.

I’m glad there is a Joel . . . This world has plenty of fire and brimstone spokespersons if one cares to look.

And, I’m thankful for fire and brimstone preachers. They taught me very starkly clearly some hint of what it means to fall into the hands of an angry God unprepared to meet Him.

Joel DOES get to things like taking each thought captive etc. He preaches from the whole counsel of Scripture while emphasizing an extremely positive focus.

Scripture itself insists that we are to think on

whatsoever things are lovely, of good report etc.

Perhaps Joel carries that much further than most would carry it. God is his paymaster and boss. Am quite willing to leave his disciplines, if necessary, to God.


78 posted on 12/19/2009 8:22:16 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: marshmallow

CNN....oh please give me a break...


79 posted on 12/19/2009 8:24:25 PM PST by shield (A wise man's heart is at his RIGHT hand;but a fool's heart at his LEFT. Ecc 10:2)
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To: Quix
while emphasizing an extremely positive focus

Don't listen to him but does he teach 'faith'?

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
80 posted on 12/19/2009 8:28:16 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Steelfish

Both of them are theological “children”.


81 posted on 12/19/2009 8:30:14 PM PST by Gapplega
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To: proudofthesouth

I have resisted in purchasing all symbols of the faith, from the cross necklace to the fish on the backs of cars to the angel pens. Actually I think the one angel pen I saw in a store turned me off completely to Christian symbol merchandise. It was a fancy pen with a gaudy angel on the pen clip. In general, I just resist the whole marketing ploy that I see with the symbols (I’m cheap that way too). It doesn’t remind me one way or another of Christ. In fact, you can prob. make a case against displaying fish symbols on cars if you’re an angry or terrible driver.


82 posted on 12/19/2009 8:30:20 PM PST by tenger (If we don't stay on 'em, they'll get it wrong -Soucheray)
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To: Quix
If one plumbs the depths of Joel's preaching, one will find much from which to benefit. His simple message reflect the simplicity that's in Christ, but the Pharisees think its shallowness.

Why is there so much hatred towards this guy? Well, I think the Devil hates him because Osteen's got a secret about victory that if embraced can turn a useless Christian into a powerful force of faith for God and against darkness. If he can't keep you from accepting Jesus, Satan's next step is to make you a weak, joyless, useless believer who won't bother his plans or his kingdom of darkness.

83 posted on 12/19/2009 8:35:46 PM PST by Jim 0216
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To: Jim 0216

I think there is great truth in your assertions.

Thx.


84 posted on 12/19/2009 8:36:58 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: presently no screen name

I think he teaches faith better than most.

He helps make it easier, i.e. more functional—workable, to practically ‘walk out’ a faith attitude, orientation, thought-life.

vs pie in the sky notions of faith.


85 posted on 12/19/2009 8:38:43 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix
taking each thought captive

Ok. Now that's good! Our thoughts for the mind of Christ. What God thinks, wants, says about us. Like who we are in Christ. We are overcomers. Anything that is not of faith is sin. So we must walk in faith daily.

Not sure what the problem is about Joel - don't watch him so I'm not the expert here. One thing - I'm sure his father (and mother) spoke blessings over him since he was born.
86 posted on 12/19/2009 8:39:03 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Quix

You bet my friend. We’re in a fight and it’s not against flesh and blood. Let’s continue to “earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints.” Jude 1:3


87 posted on 12/19/2009 8:40:21 PM PST by Jim 0216
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To: presently no screen name

I’m sure you’re right.

I don’t know much about the dad except what Joel’s told in his preaching.

Sounds like he may have been slightly more . . . well rounded in his preaching yet still overwhelmingly positive. Joel seems to have carried the positive focus to another level.

I admire him for carrying forward his father’s Biblical vision and focus to greater heights. Many sons would have bastardized it horribly or fumbled it horribly or both.


88 posted on 12/19/2009 8:43:38 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Steelfish; All

This argument is so lame.

How can you be a blessing unless you have the means to be a blessing ..??

I’ve never seen a poor person who helped another poor person. In order to help someone you have to have the finances to bless someone else. You can’t give what you don’t have.

Besides, God wrote it: “Beloved, above all I wish that you mayest prosper and be in good health, EVEN AS YOUR SOUL PROSPERS”. So while you’re learning more and more about God, God is planning on you being able to prosper financially as well. Perhaps a better job will come your way - unless of course you don’t believe God can do those things.

It’s sad really. You don’t believe God .. so you don’t want anybody else to believe either; because if others believe, then it makes you look bad.


89 posted on 12/19/2009 8:43:46 PM PST by CyberAnt (Healthcare is not a RIGHT guaranteed by the Constitution)
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To: Jim 0216

INDEED.


90 posted on 12/19/2009 8:44:57 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Gapplega

“It was collated by the Catholic Church.”

You’re painting with an overly broad brush.

Until the Gutenberg printing press it is estimated that there were only about 30 to 50 complete copies of what we would consider a compilation of anything like our modern Bible. There was much dissent over what constituted the canon of scripture from the early church on (and the dissent continues today).

And the parts were not removed because someone was ‘offended’. Parts were considered to be worthy of inclusion based on specific tenets such as Apostolic Origin.


91 posted on 12/19/2009 8:45:41 PM PST by webstersII
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To: marshmallow

Well .. enjoy your negative views of the scriptures .. quite frankly it’s getting boring.


92 posted on 12/19/2009 8:46:40 PM PST by CyberAnt (Healthcare is not a RIGHT guaranteed by the Constitution)
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To: HiramQuick

Well .. good luck with your “theory”.


93 posted on 12/19/2009 8:47:47 PM PST by CyberAnt (Healthcare is not a RIGHT guaranteed by the Constitution)
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To: CyberAnt

I listened to dozens of Kenneth Hagin tapes in my earlier years—a lot.

I rarely heard him say anything I could quibble much about.

His disciples [including his son] seemed to take things and run at least a bit sky west and crooked with them.

I think Kenneth Copeland is the best of them.

Regardless, the teachings ARE BASED ON SOLID SCRIPTURE.

GOD SAID

I would that you prosper and be in health even as your soul prospers.

And Henry Wright has been documenting that quite emphatically in a list of ways in helping people get healed of many incurable diseases.


94 posted on 12/19/2009 8:50:23 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: marshmallow
As the saying goes...."no cross, no Christ".

Really?

Funny, there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of Christian churches around the world who do not have a cross in them.

And yet they are far better Christians then many I have met here in the States.

95 posted on 12/19/2009 8:53:26 PM PST by Harmless Teddy Bear (I miss the competent fiscal policy and flag waving patriotism of the Carter Administration)
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To: Steelfish

I missed your point in that post.

Sounds like Osteen says that God wants us to improve our lives, have enough to live and some left over for others. What’s wrong with that? There are lots of promises in the NT where we are told that God will take care of our physical needs. Are you disagreeing with that?


96 posted on 12/19/2009 8:56:30 PM PST by webstersII
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To: Quix
I watched his dad about 20 yrs ago. I was watching, listening, reading to alot - was very hungry. He was good and he was born into poverty. I'm sure Joel spoke about his father's beginnings.

overwhelmingly positive

Yes. Anything else is giving a foothold to you know who! Been there, done that! I was one of - 'my people suffer for a lack of knowledge'.
97 posted on 12/19/2009 9:00:46 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: webstersII

Osteen preaches a Gospel that is antithetical to what took place in an Animal Manger in Bethlehem; on Mount Calvary; and the Empty Tomb.


98 posted on 12/19/2009 9:02:08 PM PST by Steelfish
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To: Harmless Teddy Bear

Some churches are underground and have to go place to place with nothing but The Word! They know that’s all they need.


99 posted on 12/19/2009 9:03:29 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: proudofthesouth
I can't imagine a Christian church NOT having a cross. What would be the reason why they wouldn't have one?

Because it's a curse...Because it's a shame...Because Jesus was murdered there...Because the Jesus that we worship IS NOT THERE...He is risen...

I've been to churches with crosses and churches without crosses...Didn't see any difference in the preaching or the people...

100 posted on 12/19/2009 9:05:12 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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