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*VIDEO* Jesus Said LOVE: Christian women reach out to strippers in Waco, Texas
You Tube ^ | 4/2/08 | Emily Mills

Posted on 12/23/2009 5:11:13 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege

"Jesus Loves Strippers."

(Excerpt) Read more at youtube.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: christmas; evangelical; jesuschrist; love; waco
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Christ comes to life so visibly through these women! Incredibly inspiring. A must watch!
1 posted on 12/23/2009 5:11:14 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

I reach out to strippers too


2 posted on 12/23/2009 5:13:46 PM PST by al baby (Hi Mom sarc ;))
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To: al baby
This thread is useless without pictures :)
3 posted on 12/23/2009 5:15:56 PM PST by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: al baby
Merry Christmas!


4 posted on 12/23/2009 5:15:56 PM PST by Young Werther ( ("Quae Cum Ita Sunt - Julius Caesar "Since these things are so!"))
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To: Young Werther

NIce stocking stuffer.


5 posted on 12/23/2009 5:16:54 PM PST by VicVega (2010 Let only Real Conservatives win. Say good night John McCain.)
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To: al baby

Jesus loves them....but I will give them a dollar


6 posted on 12/23/2009 5:21:27 PM PST by TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig (There once was a dream called, "Hippy Beat Down." The mere whisper of if caused cops to cry.")
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To: CondoleezzaProtege
When Jesus heard this, he told them, "Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do. I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners."

The church is able to do that which the govt. falsely claims to do.

7 posted on 12/23/2009 5:26:36 PM PST by hellbender
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

I went to high school with a girl who became a Born Again Christian in High School (according to her), and became a Stripper as a young adult. For years we called her the “born again stripper”. Sadly, however, while she was still active in her church for many years, she decided stripping was more important than Jesus.


8 posted on 12/23/2009 5:31:34 PM PST by reaganaut (When we FACE UP to the Majesty of God, we will find ourselves FACE DOWN in Worship" - Matt Redman)
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

Hookers and strippers, bring them unto me. I will lay my hands upon them, and they will rejoice mightily.


9 posted on 12/23/2009 5:31:37 PM PST by BlueStateBlues (Blue State business, Red State heart. . . . .Palin 2012----can't come soon enough!)
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To: reaganaut

I know a girl who became a born again virgin. Not sure exactly how that works.


10 posted on 12/23/2009 5:34:08 PM PST by Ditter
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To: CondoleezzaProtege
Christ comes to life so visibly through these women! Incredibly inspiring.

I'm not sure that simulating sex acts on stage with the drunken men (or women) sitting in the front row or performing on people's laps is Christ coming to life.

There is no Christian ideal of Our Lady of the G-String; or, tramp stamp stigmata. This is a very odd idea. Unless you mean that this is lesbian videos between strippers and straight Christian women, in which case it's even more odd on the RF.

11 posted on 12/23/2009 5:44:24 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

Google “Flirty Fishing” along with “Children of God.”


12 posted on 12/23/2009 5:45:12 PM PST by Clemenza (Remember our Korean War Veterans)
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To: Ditter

“born again virgin”


I think the idea of it is to be forgiven by God and then go forward as a chaste person.


13 posted on 12/23/2009 5:48:25 PM PST by married21
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To: MarkBsnr
MarkBsnr, you actually don't see any strippers in the video. The video is about women who lead a ministry that reaches out to the very people Christ ate with and loved and died for. These godly women take the time to put together gift bags for strippers in order to share the love of Christ and preach the Gospel to them. To let them know that God cares about them and that there is redemption to be found in Christ. No sin is unforgivable and we were no different in "level" of sinfulness from strippers. Without repentance and faith in Christ, we are just as lost and blind.
14 posted on 12/23/2009 5:49:53 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: BlueStateBlues

Hookers and strippers, bring them unto me. I will lay my hands upon them, and they will rejoice mightily.

* * * * * * *

Rev 22:12 Behold I come quickly


15 posted on 12/23/2009 5:55:48 PM PST by LussaO
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

I have an extended family member who was an exotic dancer. Hers was a rough life, with drugs, stds, a child out of wedlock, money trouble, etc. No hope through religion and no other job skills to fall back on. She committed suicide earlier this year. On the bright side, she left a 20ish daughter, who is seems quite likely to turn out all right.

God bless the people who reach out to these women with genuine concern. It may very well not bear much fruit, but maybe one or two people will be helped.


16 posted on 12/23/2009 5:56:08 PM PST by married21
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To: hellbender

indeed hellbender, and I think what I’m finding out more and more as that the church (me included) is not doing enough—and that’s why liberals have been gaining so much ground. the church could always be doing so much more in caring for the sick, building shelter, feeding the needy, adopting children, setting up crisis pregnancy centers, volunteering, tutoring, etc...if we were, perhaps less people would turn to the government.


17 posted on 12/23/2009 5:58:21 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: married21

indeed...

Now the tax collectors and “sinners” were all gathering around to hear him. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”

Then Jesus told them this parable: “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over *ONE* sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.”

~ Luke 15: 1-7


18 posted on 12/23/2009 6:05:18 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

I think God is interested in quality, not quantity. Individual Christians are involved in adoption and other acts of charity every day. Those individuals will be remembered. If only people realized that “true religion” is not about feeling good through enjoying sacraments, rites, and rituals, but about showing Christlike sacrificial love...


19 posted on 12/23/2009 6:10:35 PM PST by hellbender
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To: CondoleezzaProtege
Yes, I frankly think that most of the "sinners" will not be saved by this ministry, but God does not count heads. He is happy if only a few are saved, and will reward those who made the effort to save them.

Many of those involved in the sex industry were abused themselves. If they do not deserve mercy, who does?

20 posted on 12/23/2009 6:14:04 PM PST by hellbender
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To: VicVega

With all that snow fallin’ you better rub up against her!


21 posted on 12/23/2009 6:17:04 PM PST by Young Werther ( ("Quae Cum Ita Sunt - Julius Caesar "Since these things are so!"))
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To: hellbender

Right exactly, that’s why Christ ends the verse by saying: “I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over *ONE* sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.”


22 posted on 12/23/2009 6:21:01 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig

I’m going to spend tomorrow night, Christmas Eve, in Pottersville.


23 posted on 12/23/2009 6:27:18 PM PST by Lockbar (March toward the sound of the guns.)
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To: CondoleezzaProtege
MarkBsnr, you actually don't see any strippers in the video.

Then perhaps I misunderstood the article. I don't normally watch YouTube, and even more normally not with descriptions such as strippers.

These godly women take the time to put together gift bags for strippers in order to share the love of Christ and preach the Gospel to them.

Umm, I googled up a couple of sites that said that good strippers can make a thousand dollars a night (tax free) just on site. Are gift bags enough?

No sin is unforgivable and we were no different in "level" of sinfulness from strippers. Without repentance and faith in Christ, we are just as lost and blind.

I take it that you are not Calvinist in any way.

24 posted on 12/23/2009 6:30:47 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

Let’s go over the first two letters of “TULIP”

T “Total Depravity” applies to every human being, not just strippers. You and I are both born totally depraved and God-hating.

U “Unconditional election” means that there are no “conditions” on which God predestines one person for salvation over another. Salvation is a free gift given to undeserving sinners. There is nothing any more “innately” good about a person God chooses in Christ for redemption over someone He allows to remain hardened:

“Yet, BEFORE the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” ~ Romans 9: 11-13

So there was nothing “better” about Jacob that made God love him. God simply chose him.

** God’s “elect” includes former liars, former homosexuals AND former strippers—not to mention all the sinners who have yet to hear the Gospel. God is continually calling for His elect from every corner of the globe and he uses believers to carry on that task. **

As Paul reminds us in his letter to the Ephesians, chapter 2:

“As for you, you WERE dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you USED TO live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. ALL of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. LIKE THE REST, WE were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.” ~ Ephesians 2: 1-10


25 posted on 12/23/2009 6:49:56 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: hellbender

Here is their statement of intent. They say their goal is not to “fix” them, but to *love* them:

JESUS LOVES STRIPPERS shares the embracing love of Christ toward many whom our society disregards. We carry bags filled with “good gifts” into strip clubs every month focusing on building intentional relationships. Our goal is not to fix those whom we meet. We aim to spread the light-filled, non-discriminating LOVE of Jesus.

(The JLS club outreach is a monthly activity. And we are in constant need of items for the LOVE bags. Because our philosophy is centered around bringing our BEST, we request that ALL donated goods be BRAND NEW. If you are a representative of Mary Kay, Arbonne, or similar companies, the dancers LOVE your products)

http://www.jesussaidlove.com/JesusSaidLove/STRIPPERS.html


26 posted on 12/23/2009 7:04:53 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

Yes. It’s interesting that Jesus taught that it is better to give than to receive. He was really interested in what was going on in the hearts and minds of the givers. He certainly did not intend to sweep poverty and misery from the earth, although that is what the Left claims to intend to do. “For the poor you will always have with you.”


27 posted on 12/23/2009 7:08:23 PM PST by hellbender
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To: hellbender

John Winthrop’s landmark speech at Plymouth Rock was entitled “Modell of Christian Charity”

as one website summarizes nicely, Winthrop “contends that God would prefer to see his work carried out by his followers than by Himself. For that reason, God does not perform miracles to feed the hungry or shelter the homeless...”

Here is the transcript of the speech. IT’s where Ronald Reagan got his “city upon a hill” reference from. http://forerunner.com/winthrop/winthrop2.html


28 posted on 12/23/2009 7:25:09 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

Yes, it conflicts with our human expectations, but God is spirit and wants us to be possessed by that spirit, acting as His body here on earth. God came here in the person of His Son as an example of how that works, although Jesus also came as an atoning sacrifice.


29 posted on 12/23/2009 7:33:24 PM PST by hellbender
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To: CondoleezzaProtege
Let’s go over the first two letters of “TULIP”

T “Total Depravity” applies to every human being, not just strippers. You and I are both born totally depraved and God-hating.

That's where the Baptism of Christ came into the scene. I was baptized, confirmed and accept Christ into my life every day. Not totally depraved, by the grace of Christ.

U “Unconditional election” means that there are no “conditions” on which God predestines one person for salvation over another. Salvation is a free gift given to undeserving sinners. There is nothing any more “innately” good about a person God chooses in Christ for redemption over someone He allows to remain hardened: This is where you part company with Christianity. When you truly understand the passage of Jacob and Esau, then that is a sign that your heart may be softened.

** God’s “elect” includes former liars, former homosexuals AND former strippers—not to mention all the sinners who have yet to hear the Gospel. God is continually calling for His elect from every corner of the globe and he uses believers to carry on that task. **

If you truly believe in a predestined elect, then these ladies' efforts are meaningless. Not only is this belief not Christian, but it also truly weighs against the salvation of individual Christians.

30 posted on 12/23/2009 7:34:56 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: CondoleezzaProtege
and I think what I’m finding out more and more as that the church (me included) is not doing enough—and that’s why liberals have been gaining so much ground. the church could always be doing so much more in caring for the sick, building shelter, feeding the needy, adopting children, setting up crisis pregnancy centers, volunteering, tutoring, etc...if we were, perhaps less people would turn to the government.

I think its important to note that christians ARE the most giving people. Look at orginizations like Samaritans Purse, the Salvation Army, and World Vision. Churches have food pantries, cars programs, PADS programs, job programs.

People do fall through the cracks, and that is what liberals focus on. They focus on the failings, but fail to focus on the successes. Liberals want a utopia that will never be, until Christs return.

Also, most churches have some form of accountability within their programs. Liberals don't want accountability. They want people to be able to do whatever they want, with no repercussions and no accountability.

The Bible gives us rules for living, and consequences for breaking those rules.

People want welfare because there are few if any accountability.

I know a couple with no kids, who get $400 a month in food stamps. I earn my own money, and search for deals, and spend about $200 a month for 2 people, for food.

Meanwhile people like this not only have cell phones, but cell packages that allow huge text messaging and internet access.

I'm not making excuses. I'm stating facts. Christians in general, give and look to help. Liberals give and do little, and yet see the failures, but demand others do more.

Christians in general, believe in stewardship. Liberals don't want accountability, it might hurt someones self esteem.

31 posted on 12/23/2009 7:46:57 PM PST by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: MarkBsnr

At the risk of sounding weird and gimmicky, I’d liken “elected souls” to switches who need to be turned on. God set the switches, but He uses and calls for His followers to turn the switches on.

Believers are called to share the Gospel throughout the world and advance Christ’s kingdom—all the while knowing the ultimate work does not rest in our efforts, but in the Spirit of God. We cannot do anything without the help of the Holy Spirit. “We” don’t save people. GOD does.

For example: if someone had shared the Gospel with Adolf Hitler and he (obviously) rejected Christ, it’s not the fault of the believer—but it was God’s will that His heart be hardened. By the same token, and more controversially, if Hitler had NEVER heard the true Gospel—it wasn’t necessarily the fault of any Christian of failing to reach him—it was God’s will that nobody preached it to him.

NOTHING exists outside of God’s control—even global calamities like the Holocaust.

Just this morning, two Jehovah’s Witnesses showed up at my doorstep. I used what information I had and the truth of Scripture to try and “reason” with them—but they remained unconvinced. Ultimately, only God’s spirit will allow their hearts to be open enough to hear the truth-—but I can rest assured that even if my presentation and preaching wasn’t the best it could be, God allowed for our conversation to plant seeds and give them things to think about. It is not up to me to decide whether they will ultimately be saved or not. Only GOD can work that out.


32 posted on 12/23/2009 7:53:02 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: mountn man

I agree mountn man. You’re right.

All I’m saying is, if our “80% self-proclaimed Christian” nation was truly pleasing God with all we do right now, then our country wouldn’t be under as much of the obvious wrath we are currently under.

Broken homes, rampant homosexuality, the rise of false teachers like Joel Osteen, are all indicators of God’s judgment.

I suppose though, God is not ultimately satisfied with how much good we “do,” but whether or not we truly *believe* in and love His Son above all things, and whether we make God’s kingdom our first priority—not the state of our own government.


33 posted on 12/23/2009 8:13:11 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: CondoleezzaProtege
At the risk of sounding weird and gimmicky, I’d liken “elected souls” to switches who need to be turned on. God set the switches, but He uses and calls for His followers to turn the switches on.

Believers are called to share the Gospel throughout the world and advance Christ’s kingdom—all the while knowing the ultimate work does not rest in our efforts, but in the Spirit of God. We cannot do anything without the help of the Holy Spirit. “We” don’t save people. GOD does.

The implication in your posts is that the intended saved is less than all humanity. This is not Christian and has not been since the first Christians.

For example: if someone had shared the Gospel with Adolf Hitler and he (obviously) rejected Christ, it’s not the fault of the believer—but it was God’s will that His heart be hardened. By the same token, and more controversially, if Hitler had NEVER heard the true Gospel—it wasn’t necessarily the fault of any Christian of failing to reach him—it was God’s will that nobody preached it to him.

NOTHING exists outside of God’s control—even global calamities like the Holocaust.

Then you call God the author of evil. This is more non Christian than anything that you have posted previously. God is all Love. He is the opposite of evil.

It is not up to me to decide whether they will ultimately be saved or not. Only GOD can work that out.

Either man has free will or else he is a robot slave. The Gospels teach entirely free will. That is why Jesus Incarnated and taught all humanity. Robot slaves do not need Jesus to die; they don't need Scripture or the Church; they only need the Holy Spirit dropping upon them like a leopard in the jungle and programming them like an electronic implement.

34 posted on 12/23/2009 8:14:00 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

ah...then we disagree.

Oh and GOD does not author evil-—but He merely allows it to serve His purposes. He allows Satan to prowl, but ultimately Satan can’t do anything outside of God’s sovereignty and jurisdiction.

That’s why GOD allowed the Fall. Without the Fall, there would have been no need or way for CHRIST to suffer the ultimate evil and the ultimate suffering. In doing so, Christ was able to show His love to His people in a way He couldn’t have done in a “perfect,” painless world.


35 posted on 12/23/2009 8:18:58 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: CondoleezzaProtege
ah...then we disagree.

Oh and GOD does not author evil-—but He merely allows it to serve His purposes.

You said "control". Control is not allowance. Control is active direction and command. You cannot have it both ways.

That’s why GOD allowed the Fall. Without the Fall, there would have been no need or way for CHRIST to suffer the ultimate evil and the ultimate suffering. In doing so, Christ was able to show His love to His people in a way He couldn’t have done in a “perfect,” painless world.

If God is in command and control, there is no need of example. What is the purpose? If God controls people, then the control is sufficient. No example needed. No Bible, no Jesus, no Crucifixion. Just mindless control. This is not Christian. Matthew 5 does not support this example. None of the Passion narratives support this. In fact, if it wasn't for misinterpretation of Paul, there would be nothing that supports this.

36 posted on 12/23/2009 8:27:08 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

1) CHRIST was both fully God and fully man—and that is a hard concept for our fallen, finite minds to wrap around. The Trinity is called a mystery for that reason.

2) In the same way, predestination coexists with our free will. God ordains, God has a plan, but humans are accountable at the same time.

3) God did not MAKE Adam sin. Adam CHOSE to sin...but GOD allowed Adam to sin to fulfill his purpose in His ultimate plan of redemption of his people through Christ. God *knew* Adam would sin. God *knew* what He was going to accomplish through Christ.

It doesn’t “make sense” it just is that way.


37 posted on 12/23/2009 8:32:58 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: CondoleezzaProtege
) CHRIST was both fully God and fully man—and that is a hard concept for our fallen, finite minds to wrap around. The Trinity is called a mystery for that reason.

What does that have to do with the idea that God condemns men to hell?

2) In the same way, predestination coexists with our free will. God ordains, God has a plan, but humans are accountable at the same time.

My understanding of your statements has just vanished. Care to elaborate?

3) God did not MAKE Adam sin. Adam CHOSE to sin...but GOD allowed Adam to sin to fulfill his purpose in His ultimate plan of redemption of his people through Christ. God *knew* Adam would sin. God *knew* what He was going to accomplish through Christ.

Your claim is that God is in control of everything and has a plan for everything. Therefore your God made Adam sin. Your God made people destined directly for hell based upon His whim. Your God made the Holocaust happen.

Do you see that this is not the Christian God?

38 posted on 12/23/2009 8:42:15 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

It the gate of the parking lot at the Metarie Baptist Church there is a sign that says, “You are now entering the mission field”. There is plenty to do 20 miles from home without going 5,000 miles.


39 posted on 12/23/2009 8:46:38 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants (The Second Amendment. Don't MAKE me use it.)
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To: MarkBsnr

MarkBsnr,

The reason why I brought up the Trinity is to bring to light the difficulty of comprehending certain spiritual concepts. I mean, does it make a lot of sense that God Himself could implant Himself into a Virgin’s womb. That God was at one point a “fetus?”

In the same way, the concept of predestination and free will is a difficult concept—but the point is, both coexist freely. God has a plan—yet man is accountable. God ordains—yet man chooses. Both go on at the same time harmoniously.

God knows when the End of the World is...it’s not as if humans CHOOSE to end the world. The End is already planned, it’s just a matter of “when” not “if.” So, God knows what is going to happen. The fate of the world does not rest on our choices.


40 posted on 12/23/2009 8:50:27 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: CondoleezzaProtege
In the same way, the concept of predestination and free will is a difficult concept—but the point is, both coexist freely. God has a plan—yet man is accountable.

Words. Let us establish the field. Do you believe in the extension of God's Grace to less than all of humanity?

You keep speaking of plans. God is outside of Time. He has no plan - it is meaningless. God is All - He exists everywhere and everywhen. Plan is a succession in time. Meaningless. And what do you mean that God has a plan yet man is accountable?

The Calvinists claim that God made man for hell and some He chose to pull away, and the rest He lets go there. But somehow, even though He creates them for hell, He is not responsible for them winding up there. Are you such a believer?

41 posted on 12/23/2009 8:56:28 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

If God has no plan why were there prophets foreshadowing Christ centuries before he was even born?


42 posted on 12/23/2009 9:01:48 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: CondoleezzaProtege
If God has no plan why were there prophets foreshadowing Christ centuries before he was even born?

God kept reaching out to His People. But we humans, as imperfect as we are, kept misunderstanding Him. Plan? The Church was only for the Jews, according to Jesus. Yet the salvation of the Church was the reaching out to the Gentiles. The entire New Testament was written in Greek. What? Greek? Not Hebrew, not Aramaic, not Syriac. Greek. Some plan. Jesus tells the Apostles to stay away from the Gentiles and that turns out to be the salvation of the Church. The Greeks are the closest to the original Church, as well, to this day.

The Jews who existed during the time of Jesus had no clue as to His being. They were looking for a super David who would lead them to world domination. And that is how the Synoptics are written - as if Jesus was not God, but a super David, an even more favoured of God. Jesus went far beyond the prophesies, but, just as important, He did not fulfill the temporal prophesies as understood by the Jews of the time

Why do you think that the Council of Jamnia finally and completely severed the ties between Christianity (which had been considered a Jewish cult) and Judaism?

43 posted on 12/23/2009 9:15:08 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

the Jews didn’t understand the prophecies, but that doesn’t change the fact that they were in fact, prophecies of God’s actual plan. Just because the Jews didn’t understand how the plan was unfolding, doesn’t make it any less of a plan!

The plan continues to unfold today until Christ’s second coming...and yes, now God has invited Gentiles to be part of the plan—meaning both Jews and Greeks are part of His chosen people—which was not the case before Christ.


44 posted on 12/23/2009 10:00:47 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

the Jews didn’t understand the prophecies, but that doesn’t change the fact that they were in fact, prophecies of God’s actual plan. Just because the Jews didn’t understand how the plan was unfolding, doesn’t make it any less of a plan!

The plan continues to unfold today until Christ’s second coming...and yes, now God has invited Gentiles to be part of the plan—meaning both Jews and Greeks are part of His chosen people—which was not the case before Christ.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.

Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israel have remained faithful because of God’s grace—his undeserved kindness in choosing them. And since it is through God’s kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God’s grace would not be what it really is—free and undeserved.

So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have—the ones God has chosen—but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say,

“God has put them into a deep sleep.
To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see,
and closed their ears so they do not hear.”

Likewise, David said,

“Let their bountiful table become a snare,
a trap that makes them think all is well.
Let their blessings cause them to stumble,
and let them get what they deserve.
Let their eyes go blind so they cannot see,
and let their backs be bent forever.”

Did God’s people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles. But he wanted his own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves.

Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the people of Israel turned down God’s offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when they finally accept it.

I am saying all this especially for you Gentiles. God has appointed me as the apostle to the Gentiles. I stress this, for I want somehow to make the people of Israel jealous of what you Gentiles have, so I might save some of them. For since their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, their acceptance will be even more wonderful. It will be life for those who were dead!

And since Abraham and the other patriarchs were holy, their descendants will also be holy—just as the entire batch of dough is holy because the portion given as an offering is holy. For if the roots of the tree are holy, the branches will be, too.

But some of these branches from Abraham’s tree—some of the people of Israel—have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree. But you must not brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. You are just a branch, not the root.

“Well,” you may say, “those branches were broken off to make room for me.” Yes, but remember—those branches were broken off because they didn’t believe in Christ, and you are there because you do believe. So don’t think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen. For if God did not spare the original branches, he won’t spare you either.

Notice how God is both kind and severe.

He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off. And if the people of Israel turn from their unbelief, they will be grafted in again, for God has the power to graft them back into the tree. You, by nature, were a branch cut from a wild olive tree. So if God was willing to do something contrary to nature by grafting you into his cultivated tree, he will be far more eager to graft the original branches back into the tree where they belong.

I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters,so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say,
“The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem,
and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.
And this is my covenant with them,
that I will take away their sins.”

Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead. Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will share in God’s mercy. For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!

For who can know the Lord’s thoughts?
Who knows enough to give him advice?
And who has given him so much
that he needs to pay it back?

For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.

~ Paul’s Letter to the Romans, all of CHAPTER 11

Gotta let God speak through Scripture Himself.


45 posted on 12/23/2009 10:03:08 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: MarkBsnr

the Jews didn’t understand the prophecies, but that doesn’t change the fact that they were in fact, prophecies of God’s actual plan. Just because the Jews didn’t understand how the plan was unfolding, doesn’t make it any less of a plan!

The plan continues to unfold today until Christ’s second coming...and yes, now God has invited Gentiles to be part of the plan—meaning both Jews and Greeks are part of His chosen people—which was not the case before Christ.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

“I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.

Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israel have remained faithful because of God’s grace—his undeserved kindness in choosing them. And since it is through God’s kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God’s grace would not be what it really is—free and undeserved.

So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have—the ones God has chosen—but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say,

“God has put them into a deep sleep.
To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see,
and closed their ears so they do not hear.”

Likewise, David said,

“Let their bountiful table become a snare,
a trap that makes them think all is well.
Let their blessings cause them to stumble,
and let them get what they deserve.
Let their eyes go blind so they cannot see,
and let their backs be bent forever.”

Did God’s people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles. But he wanted his own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves.

Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the people of Israel turned down God’s offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when they finally accept it.

I am saying all this especially for you Gentiles. God has appointed me as the apostle to the Gentiles. I stress this, for I want somehow to make the people of Israel jealous of what you Gentiles have, so I might save some of them. For since their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, their acceptance will be even more wonderful. It will be life for those who were dead!

And since Abraham and the other patriarchs were holy, their descendants will also be holy—just as the entire batch of dough is holy because the portion given as an offering is holy. For if the roots of the tree are holy, the branches will be, too.

But some of these branches from Abraham’s tree—some of the people of Israel—have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree. But you must not brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. You are just a branch, not the root.

“Well,” you may say, “those branches were broken off to make room for me.” Yes, but remember—those branches were broken off because they didn’t believe in Christ, and you are there because you do believe. So don’t think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen. For if God did not spare the original branches, he won’t spare you either.

Notice how God is both kind and severe.

He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off. And if the people of Israel turn from their unbelief, they will be grafted in again, for God has the power to graft them back into the tree. You, by nature, were a branch cut from a wild olive tree. So if God was willing to do something contrary to nature by grafting you into his cultivated tree, he will be far more eager to graft the original branches back into the tree where they belong.

I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters,so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say,
“The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem,
and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.
And this is my covenant with them,
that I will take away their sins.”

Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead. Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will share in God’s mercy. For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!

For who can know the Lord’s thoughts?
Who knows enough to give him advice?
And who has given him so much
that he needs to pay it back?

For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.”

~ Paul’s Letter to the Romans, all of CHAPTER 11

Gotta let God speak through Scripture Himself.


46 posted on 12/23/2009 10:07:46 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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To: MarkBsnr

Why don’t you produce one single Scripture passage that contains the words “free will” are written. After you’ve done that, I’ll produce for you the numerous passages where the words “election”, “predestined”, “chosen”, “elect”, etc..... are written.

Christ said “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” (John 6:44) Therefore, the ability to come to Christ is not in the natural man, because as it says in 1 Corinthians 2:14 “The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.”

Christ also said in John 3:3 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Therefore, until man is born again (or born from above) he is not even able to see the kingdom of God, much less want to be in the kingdom of God.

Doubters in the sovereignty of God in salvation should spend time in Romans 9, where Paul addresses people who fight against the truth that God will have mercy on whom He has mercy, and He hardens whom He hardens.

Romans 9:16 “So then it depends NOT ON HUMAN WILL OR EXERTION, but on God, who has mercy.

Romans 9:18 “ So then HE has mercy on whomever HE WILLS, and He hardens whomever He wills.”

To say that all men have the ability to exercise their free will and come to Christ, apart from the drawing of God, goes against the clear teaching of Scripture.

Romans 3:11-12 “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; NO ONE SEEKS FOR GOD. All have turned asisde; together they have become worthless; no on does good, not even one.”

Romans 10:20 “ Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those WHO DID NOT SEEK ME; I have shown myself to those who DID NOT ASK FOR ME.”


47 posted on 12/24/2009 7:37:57 AM PST by paulist ("For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." - Philippians 1:21)
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To: CondoleezzaProtege
And since Abraham and the other patriarchs were holy, their descendants will also be holy—just as the entire batch of dough is holy because the portion given as an offering is holy. For if the roots of the tree are holy, the branches will be, too.

What a bunch of hooey. My father's salvation does not influence mine. The Jewish Nation consists of God's chosen people. Individuals within it that reject God will suffer the consequences of that rejection. Did the disciples who walked away from Christ when He instructed to eat His Body and drink His Blood get a pass in their particular judgement? Gotta let God speak through Scripture Himself.

In the case of Christians, we gotta let the Church speak. It is after all, the foundation and pillar of Truth, not Scripture, as evidenced by the Scriptural mangling millions of people engage in. As you have posted here.

48 posted on 12/25/2009 11:11:49 AM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: paulist
Christ said “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” (John 6:44) Therefore, the ability to come to Christ is not in the natural man, because as it says in 1 Corinthians 2:14 “The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.”

And? Are you really the Paulian that debated me some time ago and withdrew when I posted to you that even Paul said that God desires all men to be saved. Therefore free will is there, since not all men are saved. Unless you have a weak God that is unable to work His Calvinistic magic.

Romans 10:20 “ Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those WHO DID NOT SEEK ME; I have shown myself to those who DID NOT ASK FOR ME.”

Exactly. God shows His Mercy to all and extends His Grace to all. Thank you for making my point for me.

49 posted on 12/25/2009 11:19:14 AM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

Yes just a reminder, that particular passage of Scripture was penned by Saint Paul.


50 posted on 12/25/2009 12:30:54 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege ("When I survey the wondrous cross...")
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