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How could Mary be the Mother of God?
cerc ^ | MATTHEW PINTO

Posted on 01/02/2010 3:32:55 PM PST by NYer

How could Mary, a finite creature, be the Mother of God? Isn’t God an eternal being?

The title "Mother of God" is offensive to some Protestant Christians because they believe that this title raises Mary to an inappropriate, even idolatrous, level -- the level of God Himself. There is also genuine confusion on the part of others -- including Catholics -- about how a finite creature (Mary) could be the "mother" of an eternal being. "Wouldn't Mary have had to exist before God in order to be His mother?", they reason.

Referring to Mary as "Mother of God," however, does not imply that she existed from all eternity (like God) or that she is the source of Jesus' divine nature. Mary was and is a human being. She is the Mother of God because she gave birth to the God-Man, Jesus, "the Word made flesh" (John 1).

The reality of Mary's divine maternity was proclaimed a dogma of the faith by the Council of Ephesus in 431, and this teaching contains two important affirmations:

1) Mary is truly a mother. Since Jesus had no human father, Mary contributed all genetic material to the formation of His human nature. As Pope John Paul II states in his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, "[Jesus] is the flesh and blood of Mary!" (see Catechism 485)

2) Mary conceived and bore the Second Person of the Trinity. Echoing the Nestorian heresy (which denied the inseparable unity of two natures of Christ in one Person), some Protestant Christians hold that Mary was the mother of Jesus' human nature only. But a mother does not give birth to a nature; she gives birth to a person. Since Jesus is a divine Person, it is logical that Mary be called the "Mother of God" (in Greek, Theotokos), even if this mystery has aspects that exceed our human understanding.

As the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994) teaches

Called in the Gospels "the mother of Jesus," Mary is acclaimed by Elizabeth, at the prompting of the Spirit and even before the birth of her son, as "the mother of my Lord." In fact, the One whom she conceived as man by the Holy Spirit, who truly became her Son according to the flesh, was none other than the Father's eternal Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Hence the Church confesses that Mary is truly "Mother of God" (Theotokos). [CCC 495]

The word Theotokos also helps us to understand this teaching a little better. The word literally means "God bearer," not "God generator." To "generate" God would imply that one is His origin, but this cannot be true because God exists from all eternity. To "bear" God means to hold him in one's womb. Historic Christianity (i.e., the Catholic and Orthodox churches) believe that Mary actually bore God (in the person of Jesus Christ) in her womb. Jesus didn't "become God" when He left her womb.

To deny Mary's divine maternity is to cast doubt on the reality of Jesus' divinity. Mary's divine maternity is, then, essentially a "Christological" dogma in that it affirms the divine Personhood of Jesus. To emphasize the profound importance of this teaching, the Church has restored the ancient feast of Mary, Mother of God on January 1.

Since we have been reborn as children of God in baptism and now share in the divine life through grace, Mary has become our mother as well. By drawing near to her as our mother, we draw near to Jesus Himself, the source of our salvation. This is why devotion to Mary is so essential to the life of the Christian, and why the Church encourages us to foster a greater love for the Blessed Mother in our lives.

One final point. It is interesting to note that two of the early Protestant leaders, Martin Luther and John Calvin, taught Mary's divine maternity and even condemned those who denied this essential truth.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: 1tim47; incarnation; jesus; mary; motherofgod
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To: MarkBsnr

No, I am saying that the selection of new testament writings occured in the 4th century, after the first century witnesses were dead.

Here are some homework questions for you:
The councils were convened when?
The Emperor retained the position and authority of Pontifex Maximus until when?
The Bishop of Rome was given the authority of Pontifex Maximus by who, and in what year?


101 posted on 01/02/2010 6:57:45 PM PST by donmeaker (Invicto)
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To: donmeaker
From some points of view, all protestantism is heresy. From Orthodox Jews, all christianity is heresy. From the point of view of wahabi muslims, anyone who disagrees with you on any point is guilty of heresy. Science, on the other hand, lets you conduct an experiment, and check your hypothesis, limited by your situation, funding and creativity.

LOL. Scientism is excommunicates scientists who question the orthodoxy of faith-based macro evolution.

102 posted on 01/02/2010 6:58:49 PM PST by Kells
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Comment #103 Removed by Moderator

To: donmeaker

Then why argue this? Why not argue something basic, like Intellegent Design, or Jesus vs. world religions?


104 posted on 01/02/2010 7:04:12 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Happy New Year!)
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To: MarkBsnr

An interesting book is “The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross” by John Allegro. He asserts that Mark is a text that encodes and protects the secret of how to prepare and consume the aminita muscaria mushroom (fly agaric) to have religious experiences (see sounds and hear colors type).

John Allegro was one of the less productive members of the committee that produced the “Revised Standard Version” and was just in time to justify some of the drug cultures of the 1960s.


105 posted on 01/02/2010 7:05:29 PM PST by donmeaker (Invicto)
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To: Kells

Scientism only excommunicates those who have not done their experments yet.


106 posted on 01/02/2010 7:07:14 PM PST by donmeaker (Invicto)
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To: gwilhelm56

Would you be so kind to spell out your abbreviations?


107 posted on 01/02/2010 7:08:34 PM PST by donmeaker (Invicto)
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To: ColdSteelTalon

I have read every post up to yours, and I have yet to see anyone claim Mary is divine.


108 posted on 01/02/2010 7:08:59 PM PST by Lil Flower ("Without Love, deeds, even the most brilliant, count as nothing." St. Therese of Lisieux)
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To: donmeaker
There are two ways to be a Jew: One is to convert, the other is to be born to a Jewish mother. No doubt that was plenty of evidence, but we keep in mind the scritural narratives that there were reportedly few people available in the Cave/Stable to witness the birth. The authors of Mark and John didn’t seem to think it mattered enough for them to mention.

And are there no connections to humanity through Mary? None whatsoever, however miraculous that seems? I would think that Jesus's life and birth are both a combination of miracle and natural, it seems to be the way God often worked in scriptures. Any theophany in the OT is an example.

109 posted on 01/02/2010 7:09:32 PM PST by Bayard
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To: Lauren BaRecall

I presume you mean “Intelligent Design”...

That is another interesting subject, but I rarely start these threads. I believe that the Catholic position on Evolution is that it is a correct statement of how G-d created the current diversity of species. I actually agree with Evolution, but coming up with valid experiments is quite challenging.


110 posted on 01/02/2010 7:12:03 PM PST by donmeaker (Invicto)
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To: Lil Flower

But we have it on good authority that she is free of original sin...

On the other hand when Pelagius promulgated his list of people who were free of sin (Mary, Elijah, Elisha, Enoch, who was translated, others) he was excommunicated.


111 posted on 01/02/2010 7:14:19 PM PST by donmeaker (Invicto)
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To: donmeaker
I presume you mean “Intelligent Design”...

Oh gosh, sorry for being so far off the mark! LOL!

112 posted on 01/02/2010 7:16:05 PM PST by Lauren BaRecall (Happy New Year!)
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To: donmeaker
But we have it on good authority that she is free of original sin... On the other hand when Pelagius promulgated his list of people who were free of sin (Mary, Elijah, Elisha, Enoch, who was translated, others) he was excommunicated.

And Tertullian was a heretic as well, yet much of his writing is used in the Church. This sounds like the nazi-phallacy. Not everything a heretic says is untrue, if I asked Pelagius who the emperor was at the time of his reign I'm sure he'd give an honest answer.

113 posted on 01/02/2010 7:17:01 PM PST by Bayard
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

The other fun heresy is Arianism. According to Wikipedia, “Of all the various disagreements within the Christian Church, the Arian controversy has held the greatest force and power of theological and political conflict”.

We all have to believe Wikipedia, don’t we?

Well, not on this site.


114 posted on 01/02/2010 7:20:53 PM PST by donmeaker (Invicto)
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To: donmeaker
Scientism only excommunicates those who have not done their experments yet.

Nice obfuscation. No experiments are necessary to doubt the unproven faith article of macro evolution.

115 posted on 01/02/2010 7:21:14 PM PST by Kells
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To: donmeaker

Excuse me but my post was not directed to you.


116 posted on 01/02/2010 7:24:16 PM PST by Lil Flower ("Without Love, deeds, even the most brilliant, count as nothing." St. Therese of Lisieux)
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To: Kells

In Science, you are supposed to doubt.

Descartes said “I think, therefore I am.” But that was his second syllogism. The first was “I doubt, therefore I think.”

All scientific truths are subject to doubt, and the really interesting part is when something you thought would be true ain’t so.


117 posted on 01/02/2010 7:24:45 PM PST by donmeaker (Invicto)
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To: donmeaker
I believe that the Catholic position on Evolution is that it is a correct statement of how G-d created the current diversity of species.

Other than the general principle of scriptural inerrancy, there is no defined Catholic position on Evolution. There is only private opinion of individuals.

118 posted on 01/02/2010 7:25:29 PM PST by Kells
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To: gwilhelm56

Don’t use potty language on the Religion Forum


119 posted on 01/02/2010 7:26:20 PM PST by Admin Moderator
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To: Bayard

Well, they say even a blind pig finds a few acorns every now and then.


120 posted on 01/02/2010 7:26:35 PM PST by donmeaker (Invicto)
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To: Kells

You are corrct that scripture doesn’t refer to evolution directly. It has other matters that are worthy of interest.


121 posted on 01/02/2010 7:28:30 PM PST by donmeaker (Invicto)
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To: donmeaker

True enough.


122 posted on 01/02/2010 7:33:32 PM PST by Bayard
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To: Lil Flower

I beg your pardon. I think it is customary to use “Private Reply” if you don’t care to have your thoughts reviewed by others.

Again, sorry if I offended.


123 posted on 01/02/2010 7:34:29 PM PST by donmeaker (Invicto)
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To: donmeaker

What offends me is to see people take what others say and twist it to fit their own agenda.No one on this post claimed Mary is divine.In fact, it was stated very clearly that Jesus received ONLY his human nature from Mary.His divinity comes from Himself.Yes she was born without original sin,but that was only possible because of Christs’ work upon the Cross. She needed a savior just as much as you or I do, hence she is Not divine and no true Catholic would claim otherwise.


124 posted on 01/02/2010 8:08:40 PM PST by Lil Flower ("Without Love, deeds, even the most brilliant, count as nothing." St. Therese of Lisieux)
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To: vladimir998

The campaign of which I speak is not of scriptural origins. Mary understood well her mortality, and that she, like all we mortals, stood in need of forgiveness and redemption.


125 posted on 01/02/2010 10:01:08 PM PST by Elsiejay (.)
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To: Elsiejay

You wrote:

“The campaign of which I speak is not of scriptural origins.”

The ‘campaign’ of which you speak is a product of your imagination.

“Mary understood well her mortality, and that she, like all we mortals, stood in need of forgiveness and redemption.”

Mary acknowledged that Jesus was her Savior. He just saved her from the beginning of her existence.

If you can’t document this supposed ‘campaign’ for the last 1500 years I suggest you stop creating things out of whole cloth.


126 posted on 01/03/2010 6:18:46 AM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: MarkBsnr
If Jesus was Divine I don't think they would have been able to kill him on the cross. Jesus had twelve legions of Angels to protect him. He could do miracles but so could man more. When he rose form the dead and went to the Father he came back and could walk through walls and gave the Holy Spirit to his Disciples.

I have been wrong before though.

127 posted on 01/03/2010 6:30:27 AM PST by mountainlion (concerned conservative.)
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To: donmeaker

“The old testament selection was performed by the council of Rabbis after the Christians did their selection of authoritive books of the New Testament.”

The scrolls were in the Temple before the Church came into
existence, therefore I believe you are incorrect in you assertion. They were available hundreds of years before the
Church. This comprises 2/3 of the Word of God.

I also affirm and appreciate that God used the early,
historic church to prevent the corruption of many books
claiming authority.

We have the Word of God in written form as a result of
GOD’S superintending the process through varying human
agency. For this I am thankful.


128 posted on 01/03/2010 7:17:32 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: mountainlion

There was the point at His baptism when the Holy Spirit descended upon Him like a dove (as opposed to the form of a flame at Pentacost), but not divine? Hmmm. Considering our salvation is only from God, I cannot see God not being involved from the genetic start. Jesus must have had the perfect combination of genes, with no illness or degradation, and actually without His murder, should have lived forever.

There must be thousands of books on His divinity that you need to read. It doesn’t mean that Jesus couldn’t transcend the space time continuum, I have dabbled in thought about this with the fact that ‘EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM’ when He returns (does He return throughout time???). Fun to think about! Not spending a lifetime on, though. :)


129 posted on 01/03/2010 7:26:41 AM PST by huldah1776
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To: BenKenobi

All of God’s servants and children who give their lives to God are therefore co-redemptrix? Are we not all called to portray God in our lives and bring others to redemption? Bearing the Son of God did not guarantee Mary’s salvation. It was the gift of faith from God in that baby as Savior that saved Mary.


130 posted on 01/03/2010 7:30:32 AM PST by huldah1776
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To: donmeaker

Does God overreach? Or does He give insight to us as to the past and why things happened the way they did. Fulfilled Biblical prophecy is well documented, so if God used a past human life to portray a future divine redemptive life, so be it. We understand things better that way. Try teaching a child without pictures or hands-on learning. Try teaching an adult HVAC without it!


131 posted on 01/03/2010 7:36:38 AM PST by huldah1776
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To: gwilhelm56
Then how about we “CHRISTIANS” GET our heads out of our BUTTS... we have an enemy the WANTS to KILL US.. and if we don’t KILL THEM .. THEY WILL make the Inquisition look like a baseball game.

That's the problem right there. Talk to any PC liberal and they think they're following Christian teaching, even though they're usually "agnostics". Christians are not told they can't defend themselves or defend what's right and any religion that tells its followers that their [moon]-god instructs them to kill infidels is not a religion of God, but one of Satan. God in his infinite wisdom created all people so why would he want some to kill others in a twisted perversion of his teaching.

Bottom line, it's like you said we need to as a country get our heads out of our butts.

132 posted on 01/03/2010 8:17:11 AM PST by RedStateGuyTrappedinCT
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Nicely put.


133 posted on 01/03/2010 10:39:14 AM PST by Bainbridge
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To: Elsiejay
This faulty view is what made the “ doctrine
of the Immaculate Conception” necessary.
Contrary to many people's understanding ( even
some Roman Catholics) that means that MARY was
conceived without sin ; an entirely unscriptural
and illogical proposition.
134 posted on 01/03/2010 10:44:12 AM PST by Bainbridge
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To: huldah1776

The decision of Christ to choose Mary, from her conception onwards is what kept her from sinning, and granted her salvation. This is different from anyone else.


135 posted on 01/03/2010 10:53:56 AM PST by BenKenobi
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To: donmeaker
No, I am saying that the selection of new testament writings occured in the 4th century, after the first century witnesses were dead.

Certainly they were all dead. And so were the second century people; they had died as well. I am familiar with the councils and the progression that they made towards the selection of Canon of the Scripture.

I am also familiar with the title of Pontifex Maximus. Ca. 300 BC, it was the title of Roman priests (a selection of them), and it wasn't until Julius Caesar, that it was relegated to one man. This passed on until the Emperor Gratian in 378 refused the title and passed it to the bishop of Rome since he was a devout Christian and thought that a priestly title belonged with the Church, and not the Emperor.

136 posted on 01/03/2010 10:55:03 AM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: mountainlion
If Jesus was Divine I don't think they would have been able to kill him on the cross.

Not unless it was permitted by Him. The NT is full of His predictions and general discussion of the Crucifixion. I'm sure that you are familiar with them. Then, to Isaiah.

Isaiah 53: 4 3 Yet it was our infirmities that he bore, our sufferings that he endured, While we thought of him as stricken, as one smitten by God and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins, Upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole, by his stripes we were healed. 6 We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all. 7 Though he was harshly treated, he submitted and opened not his mouth; Like a lamb led to the slaughter or a sheep before the shearers, he was silent and opened not his mouth. 8 Oppressed and condemned, he was taken away, and who would have thought any more of his destiny? When he was cut off from the land of the living, and smitten for the sin of his people, 9 A grave was assigned him among the wicked and a burial place with evildoers, Though he had done no wrong nor spoken any falsehood.

Thus we have John telling us that Jesus is God; we have the predictions of Jesus' death and Resurrection all throught the NT, and we have some OT predictions. Pretty telling, really.

137 posted on 01/03/2010 10:55:19 AM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Bainbridge

“Contrary to many people’s understanding ( even
some Roman Catholics) that means that MARY was
conceived without sin ; an entirely unscriptural
and illogical proposition.”

What part of scripture does the doctrine contradict? Rather, it solves the problem as to how Christ was free from sin and yet still inherited a human nautre.


138 posted on 01/03/2010 10:55:24 AM PST by BenKenobi
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To: vladimir998
Well, according to many arch-catholics, such as
Hilaire Belloc for example, anything a “protestant” says is
,by definition heresy ; )
139 posted on 01/03/2010 11:04:54 AM PST by Bainbridge
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To: Lauren BaRecall

“The old testament selection was performed by the council of Rabbis after the Christians did their selection of authoritive books of the New Testament.”

Wrong, completely wrong.

The Septuagint, which included the so-called deuterocanonical books, was in use well before.

The reason many of them (1,2 Maccabbees) in particular were challenged is because they were quite a bit newer than the rest of the Septuagint, having been written within a century of the Septuagint.

“The Catholic Church had some theological things that they could not justify in the rabbinically selected old testament, and so added what are known as the apocrapha.”

Wrong. The Catholic church used the Septuagint throughout, and then St. Jerome did his own Latin translation of the Hebrew OT and the Greek NT, and published the Vulgate which was the first time they were both published together. St. Jerome included the deuterocanoncal books, and appended a notation that he did not possess hebrew originals (which isn’t surprising given that Maccabees was written so late).

The Vulgate was in use from 500 for close to a thousand years. It’s only when Luther who didn’t like the deuterocanonical books, that he excised them and other protestants followed suit.

The only one who’s taken books out is Luther and his followers. The Catholic church did not add the books, they were there before there even was a Church at all, in the Septuagint.


140 posted on 01/03/2010 11:06:03 AM PST by BenKenobi
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To: donmeaker
If you believe in evolution then why would you think anyone was in need of a savior: obviously there was no Adam and
Eve, therefore no fall, and consequently no
original sin. Why are you wasting your time on any
of this ? Completely irrational.
141 posted on 01/03/2010 11:11:18 AM PST by Bainbridge
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To: BenKenobi

What is the scripture that supports this proposition?


142 posted on 01/03/2010 11:22:54 AM PST by Bainbridge
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To: NYer
Martin Luther and John Calvin, taught Mary's divine maternity and even condemned those who denied this essential truth.

And to this day, orthodox Protestants agree. Only fringe groups part ways on this.

On the other hand, since there is no example in scripture, Protestants do not accept that a human in Heaven can hear and answer prayers--only the all present, all knowing and all powerful God can do that.

143 posted on 01/03/2010 11:25:28 AM PST by AnalogReigns
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To: BenKenobi

You know, don’t you, that the “extra books”
(old testtament period) are not accepted
by the Jews. Interesting, no ?


144 posted on 01/03/2010 11:27:12 AM PST by Bainbridge
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To: Bainbridge

Yes, but that was not always so. Jews back in the time of Christ accepted them.


145 posted on 01/03/2010 11:41:18 AM PST by BenKenobi
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To: Bainbridge

“What is the scripture that supports this proposition?”

You said it was unscriptural. I take that to mean that it contradicts scripture, not merely that it isn’t explicitly stated in scripture.

For example, would you consider the Trinity to be unscriptural?


146 posted on 01/03/2010 11:55:55 AM PST by BenKenobi
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To: BenKenobi
What does he say to Peter before he dies on the cross? You know your scripture. He says, “Son, behold your Mother, Mother behold your Son.”

Interesting Scripture you have there.

147 posted on 01/03/2010 12:12:25 PM PST by xone
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To: BenKenobi
You are right: in fact it does contradict scripture in
many ways. But you are trying to finesse the issue by
throwing out what you think is a trap. It is not .
Although the word “ Trinity” does not exist the
concept is made manifest in many places ( Matthew 28:9
identifies the three persons, and Luke 3:21-22 highlights
the existence of the triune God.
But, I think you may know that this is very different.
and are not interested in admitting that there is no
scriptural support for the Marian theology.
148 posted on 01/03/2010 12:21:53 PM PST by Bainbridge
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To: MarkBsnr

I don’t know.......you know men.....


149 posted on 01/03/2010 12:30:50 PM PST by Fawn (When it comes to chocolate, resistance is futile.)
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To: Bainbridge

Not to mention, utterly unnecessary. The divinity of Jesus of Nazareth, God’s Messiah, is not in any sense dependent upon how Mary, his mortal mother, was conceived, or how she lived her life as a wife and mother after having given birth to Jesus, or the manner of disposal of her mortal remains upn her death.
Having read and studied the Gospels, and indeed the entire Christian Bible, it is difficult for me to comprehend, intellectually and logically, why it should be necessary to write a statement such as I just did for the edification of people who profess to be Christians.


150 posted on 01/03/2010 1:56:02 PM PST by Elsiejay (.)
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