Posted on 01/03/2010 1:53:57 PM PST by NYer
“And that in a nutshell is the problem with Protestant-Evangelical Christianity.”
Why? “Baptist” isn’t copyrighted - anyone can start any church they want, and call it baptist or catholic, if they wish.
No one forces you to go to a Baptist church. Baptists haven’t burned anyone at the stake, or strangled them for heresy. Unlike various state churches and Catholics, Baptists haven’t used governments to kill their opponents.
So if you don’t like what a church that calls itself baptist preaches...leave.
A little bit of brittle there with the snarl.
A little bit of brittle there with the snarl.
“Given that the likening by Jesus of Heaven to this king, who are the servants likened to? Sinners: those still unclean may not enter Heaven, for those in Heaven have been made perfect. Yet since it is understood that those in Hell are in a state of final impenitence, why would Paul pray for his dead friend Onesiphorus in the first chapter of his second letter to Timothy (for if Onesiphorus is in Heaven, there is no need for Paul to pray that he finds the mercy of the Lord; yet if Onesiphorus is in Hell, no amount of prayer on behalf of Paul would change his fate)?”
I gather you aren’t familiar with the phrase ‘kingdom of heaven’ or ‘kingdom of God’?
Here is a hint - it doesn’t mean “Heaven”. I suggest reading here:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=kingdom&t=ESV&csr=9&sf=5
Also, you ASSUME Onesiphorus was dead in order to support your interpretation. Why?
“For the record, Peter cautions in his second letter - chapter 1, verse 20 - against private interpretation without the aid of the Holy Spirit.”
Here is the passage in context...I’ll let any heretical Protestant read and interpret without Catholic goggles:
“I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to stir you up by way of reminder, since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.
For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”
Meanwhile, the Holy Spirit was promised to ALL Christians. Therefor, ALL Christians can read what He inspired and have the author explain it to them. Or they can trust a church organization to tell them what God has said...
LOL - you so lost that argument.
I didn’t say just Baptist. I said Protestant-Evangelical Christianity.
1) What I see in the Catholic Church's leadership is a **mess***! For example, Ted Kennedy's flamboant Catholic funeral mass was a disgrace. Fr. Jenkins still continues as the head of Notre Dame, and is thriving as well.
It appears that many of the bishops and education leaders in the Catholic Church worship Marx instead of God. And...There is no way for the common Catholic members to bring about an expeditious reform. They are told to pray, wait for a miracle, send their sons to already leftist corrupted seminaries, and wait a few generations.
As a Protestant, I am left scratching my head wondering how in heaven or on earth this church could in any way be “true”.
2) Then there is the cult-like emotional manipulation that the Catholic church exerts over its members. If the Catholic Church is the one and only true church, its priesthood the only officially true priesthood, its Pope the only representative of Christ on earth, then if a Catholic leaves it ( because he is sufficiently disgusted with the Marxist leaders) he is literally walking away from true salvation and is in danger of eternal hell! How is this different than the emotional manipulation of a cult? Is it because the Catholic Church is somehow a true cult?
3) Then there are customs and practices of the Catholic Church that utterly befuddle a Protestant. For instance, why would anyone even think to dig up John Neumann’s body? Of what possible purpose would there be to do this? Why would relics be making their way around the church? It seems to me as a Protestant to be macabre and perverse.
4) And then to us as Protestants ( while we **greatly** respect and admire Mary) we would never think to pray to her or the other saints. We pray directly to God in the name of Jesus. To us this practice of praying to Mary and the saints is an abomination.
So...I love my Catholic neighbors. Our nation would be far stronger if we had a nation full to the brim with Catholics who fully and completely practiced **all** of their religion. We share far more in common that we do in differences... But...I hope you can see why we Protestants just don't get it.
Paul refers to Onesiphorus himself strictly in the past tense, yet speaks of his house in the present tense. Also, toward the end of the same letter to Timothy, you see in 2 Timothy 4:19 that Paul speaks of Prisca and Aquila in the present tense, yet only does the same for the house of Onesiphorus, not Onesiphorus himself.
It seems that some lynchings were done by baptist elders wearing white sheets - which men ran the local governments but hid their deeds under the sheets.
Are you being intentionally dishonest? I specifically said that I was not referring to being treated badly by my fellow parishioners but to a teaching of contempt for rural American Fundamentalism that saturated Catholic media. One can only stomach so many attacks on "those awful people who believe in creation" before deciding "'real' Catholics obviously think I'm an awful person."
In 5 years of attending Mass at different parishes in South Carolina & in WV I’ve observed nothing that would validate your assertion in any form or fashion.
Bully for you. And I suppose you've never read a single issue of any Catholic publication? And btw, if you got your local priest to speak to your mother about converting, then congratulations.
If being thankful for Christ, His Church, the Grace that comes to us through the Sacraments, for Mass and the joy I feel in my heart = this “evolution” you refer to, then yes, I am “enjoying” it.
So, do you go around to your non-Catholic relatives and make fun of them for believing in creation?
“Or they can trust a church organization to tell them what God has said...”
I find this ‘argument’ interesting because it presumes the Catholic Church is not being led by the Holy Spirit through faillible men.
The American Catholic church is too gentrified, too intellectual, and too urban to give a whit about the rural Protestant people of America.
IIRC, you were Catholic for six years.
I've been a Catholic for more than half a century.
Your characterisation of the Church in America is false.
The American Catholic church is an urban/suburban immigrant gentrified/intellectual church. It cares about the feelings of "indigenous pipples" and so is careful not to destroy their beliefs but is merciless in its attacks on simple belief in the veracity of the Biblical accounts.
What planet are you from?
Almost all Catholic clergy, in whichever part of the country, are brainwashed in nineteenth century liberal German Protestant Biblical criticism. They take this attitude wherever they serve.
And for the zillionth time, check the periodicals.
Countless miracles have been attributed to the intercession of Mary and the saints. Are those miracles abominable to you?
God understands the heart and desires of those praying to the saints and Mary. He hears their prayers directly (even though somewhat misdirected). The miracles are entirely due to God’s providence, and have nothing to do with “intercession”.
When I joined the Catholic Church I discovered a hostility whose existence I didn't even know existed. Articles in Catholic magazines, tracts in the back of the church, and whole books were devoted to attacking those awful, ignorant, bigoted, inbred Fundamentalists.
Surely you can provide a brief sampler of a bibliography, yes?
[sarcasm] Why of course. Naturally I have each and every copy right here on my desk at this moment, else it would be obvious that I am a liar and making everything up right off the top of my head because of my own evil nature. [/sarcasm]
How about we begin with the official paper of my diocese which not only ran an article calling for the teaching of the documentary hypothesis in public schools (and lamenting that the Fundamentalists wouldn't like it) but also ran an article specifically stating that the Catholic Church would concentrate on converting intellectuals and let the Fundamentalist churches take care of the simpler folk?
I've been wondering what planet you're from, though. I also find mildly amusing your habit of lecturing life-long Catholics about the supposed character of their Church ...
But...Am I correct that a person could still be a very good Catholic in good standing and never pray to Mary or the other saints or pray the rosary? I am correct in this?
If this is the case then praying to Mary, the saints, or praying the rosary isn’t a “deal breaker” as far as being a member.
So...explain why it is a fault.
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