Posted on 01/04/2010 10:43:57 AM PST by GonzoII
When I was in college, I journeyed to Cologne, Germany and visited the city's glorious cathedral. I was a Protestant at the time, but I remember being amazed that people had been building this cathedral for so many centuries. It is one of the greatest Gothic churches of all time.
(Excerpt) Read more at cantuar.blogspot.com ...
geeez Gonzo, been there too, as a youth, and NEVER KNEW about the Golden casket or the bones of the three wise men...wonder how St. Helena got them all together? At any rate...I hope I get a chance to go back. It is an AMAZING cathedral!
Sweet! Did they live to see the Crucifixion?
There is a Benedictine abbey near Boston which has first class relics of the three Magi.
I just found out that the Holy Grail has never been lost. It’s on display in Valencia, Spain. Of course, any chalice in any Catholic church is also a holy grail as well.
hmm, never knew about and thanks for the info. The great thing about it is that they saw the birth of the Messiah.
Our current “messiah”, no one has ever seen where he was born.
It's always amazed me that the remains and final resting place of the foster father of Jesus himself should be so .......incognito..............if that's the right word.
And I did read that they returned back home again. So, what did the Queen do? Go hunting for them (i.e., their dead bodies) in the Parthian Empire or rather the Sassanid Empire later?
Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense, especially considering that a large envoy of officials from a neighboring deadly enemy -- enters Jerusalem, and asks the sitting King (at the time) where the new-born King is. You can bet they had ample security and military to fight a war if they needed to, when they came into Jerusalem.
That's why they caused quite a stir in Jerusalem at the time.
I have a Grail as well. It is very nice. And NO you cannot see it. Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time you silly English Ka-niggits.
Sweet! Did they live to see the Crucifixion?
I would sincerely doubt it. And the Bible says nothing more about them, once they returned to the Parthian Empire.
But, really..., if they had dared to return again to Roman lands, it would have probably meant a war would break out. For one thing, a envoy like that, with some big-time major officials in transit with it, doesn't march on another enemy country's lands without a possible major altercation.
The managed doing it one time, and I doubt they would try that again. You can bet they were beefed up big-time with enough military support the first time they came through -- there probably wouldn't be a second time for them to intrude upon Roman territory.
Marco Polo on Persia's "Christian" fire worshippers
From Chapter XI (Of the province of Persia) of Marco Polo's "The Travels; The Description of the world" written in 1298. This translation is by William Marsden, revised by Thomas Wright (Konemann Travel Classics, Koln, Germany, 1996).
Persia was anciently a large and noble province, but it is now in great part destroyed by the Tartars. In Persia there is a city which is called Saba, from whence were the three magi who came to adore Christ in Bethlehem; and the three are buried in that city in a fair sepulchre, and they are all three entire with their beards and hair. One was called Baldasar, the second Gaspar, and the third Melchior.
Marco inquired often in that city concerning the three magi, and nobody could tell him anything about them, except that the three magi were buried there in ancient times. After three days' journey you come to a castle which is called Palasata, which means the castle of the fire-worshippers, and it is true that the inhabitants of that castle worship fire, and this is given as the reason.
The men of that castle say, that anciently three kings of that country went to adore a certain king who was newly born, and carried with them three offerings, namely, gold, frankincense, and myrth: gold, that they might know if he were an earthly king; frankincense, that they might know if he were God; and myrth, that they might now if he were a mortal man.
When these magi were presented to Christ, the youngest of the three adored him first, and it appeared to him that Christ was of his stature and age. The middle one came next, and then the eldest, and to each he seemed to be of their own stature and age. Having compared their observations together, they agreed to go all to worship at once, and then he appeared to them all of his true age.
When they went away, the infant gave them a closed box, which they carried with them for several days, and then becoming curious to see what he had given them, they opened the box and found in it a stone, which was intended for a sign that they should remain firm as a stone in the faith they had received from him.
When, however, they saw the stone, they marvelled, and thinking themselves deluded, they threw the stone into a certain pit, and instantly fire burst forth in the pit. When they saw this, they repented bitterly of what they had done, and taking some of the fire with them they carried it home.
And having placed it in one of their churches, they keep it continually burning, and adore that fire as a god, and make all their sacrifices with it; and if it happen to be extinguished, they go for more to the original fire in the pit where they threw the stone, which is never extinguished, and they take of none other fire. And, therefore, the people of the country worship fire.
Marco was told all this by the people of the country; and it is true that one of those kings was of Saba; and the second was Dyava, and the third was of the castle. [ go to bottom of page to see reference... ]
Must drive you nuts when the “We Three Kings” song comes on the radio. Your point is well taken though. Somewhere along the time line of Christianity the true story of these three men and their journey to find Jesus, was twisted badly.
Somewhere along the time line of Christianity the true story of these three men and their journey to find Jesus, was twisted badly.
Well, if folks would just stick to the Bible they would be fine... LOL...
It's when you get all these so-called "traditions" added to the Bible that you get into trouble.
Just stick with what the Bible says and you'll be fine... (and forget the songs on the radio and all that other garbage... :-) ...)
Now..., I don't mean to not have fun singing carols and stuff like that, but don't make Christmas carols the source of of truth regarding the Son of God... LOL...
Many of us skeptical Protestants suspect that Queen Mother Helena’s tour of the Holy Land in the early 4th Century was the original tourist scam. It seems that whatever she was looking for the local folks seemed to be able to locate “miraculously” and most of it ended up in the hands of the church.
I haven’t heard any tales about what the “guides” got out of it but I doubt they went unrewarded.
>> and myrth, that they might now if he were a mortal man. <<
You mean, “and myrth, that they may find out if he has a sense of humor.”
Either that, or you mean myrrh.
By Dr. Ann Nyland
At this time of year, many of us see nativity scenes every time we leave the house. These usually feature three Wise Men looking at the newborn baby Jesus or handing him little gifts. You'd be hard put to find someone who doesn't think that three Wise Men actually visited the newborn baby Jesus.
Does the Bible say three Wise Men gave gifts to a newborn baby Jesus? No! You won't find this in the King James Version, the NIV, The Message, you won't find this in any Bible version!
What does the Bible say? The Bible says that after Jesus was born, Wise Men traveled hundreds of miles to Jerusalem to look for the one who would be called the "King of the Jews". When Herod heard this, he got quite upset because the Senate had appointed him Ruler of the Jews some time earlier and he was a ruthless guy known for murdering his competition. He called a meeting of the chief priests and Bible scholars to ask if they knew anything about this. They told him that the one who would be called "King of the Jews" would be born in Bethlehem.
Herod then called the Wise Men to a secret meeting, and told them to look for this child in Bethlehem and report his whereabouts to him. He pretended his intention was to go there to worship him, but they didn't fall for that! Anyway, they headed off to Bethlehem and found Jesus in a house, as we are told in Matthew 2:11. Now instead of heading back to Herod, they took off in the other direction back to their own country.
Matthew 2:16-17 says that when Herod realized that the Wise Men had made a fool of him, he got extremely angry. He ordered the death of all the male children up to the age of two years old in Bethlehem and the whole area around it. Verse 17 says that he'd figured out the age from the information supplied by the Wise Men. So any Bible version you pick up will say the same thing - there were no Wise Men present when Jesus was baby, not a single one! They found Jesus as a child close to the age of 2 and living in a house. Remember that after Jesus was born, the Wise Men traveled many hundreds of miles from Persia to Jerusalem to look for him. It took them a while to get there - remember, they couldn't catch a plane!
Now, the Bible doesn't mention the number of these "Wise Men". No doubt the number "three" came into popular belief because they were three different types of gifts - and notice there were not three gifts, just different types of gifts!
History tells us that "Wise Men" were very wealthy, multi-millionaires in today's terms, and traveled with cavalry for protection for themselves and all their luxurious stores. Persians were known in those times for their over-the-top luxury. When they found Jesus, it is highly unlikely that they handed him little gifts the size of a shoe box, as those nativity scenes suggest. More likely it took several people to unload all the treasure from the camels! Gold, frankincense and myrrh were very expensive gifts, this is all well documented historically.
Dr. Ann Nyland is an ancient Greek language scholar and lexicographer known as the translator of The Source New Testament available at http://www.smithandstirling.com Her research field is word meaning from New Testament times.
:-)
I’m just full of myrth right now... LOL...
Have been to mass at the Koln Cathedral also took
a tour of the inside area. Wonderful History
and art.
Chill. “Magi” is just an Anglicization of “Magoi,” used to instruct one using English phonemes of the soft “g.” I’m not sure how you think your description varies from tradition, other than what you suppose they rode in on; Any camel is just an artistic extrapolation of what some latter-day romanticist supposed a Middle-Easterner rode in on. The Magi are recognized as Persian throughout Christianity, although a romanticization of them representing the three races became popular in art in the modern era; this is, of course, fictitious, but probably stems from a supposition that they fulfill the prophesy of 60:3.
For whatever reason, they have nearly always been represented as a trio, in every Christian culture, from the Ethiopian Copts, to the Far Eastern Thomists, to the Eastern Orthodox, to the Catholics, so it’s likely there were actually three of them, although in some ancient texts, there are as many as twelve.
It's always amazed me that the remains and final resting place of the foster father of Jesus himself should be so .......incognito..............if that's the right word.
see Matthew 27:52-53. While not dogma, it's 'assumed' those risen were taken up into heaven as well.
Which reminds me, someone posted a story about the controversy over the control of the Cenacle or Upper Room in Jerusalem. Some one pointed out that it is also connected to the Tomb of David. Pious Jews admit the tomb is empty. If I have these facts correct, that certainly is interesting.
Ni!
I was particularly fascinated by the pictorial account set up in the nave of the cathedral which detailed the post- WWII restoration of the damaged cathedral.
The Tomb of David has never been found- the tomb of David where Jews pray is symbolic, it does lie in the same house, underneath the room where local lore says the Last Supper and the Epiphany occurred
Been there, got the t-shirt
Wise men? More like agents of Satan. Not so wise.
Not sure if I saw that.
It is so massive in size and remarable
how constructed in the early middle ages.
I would be careful with anything from Nyland. She published not only the book you mentioned, but this one as well:
Study New Testament For Lesbians, Gays, Bi, And Transgender: With Extensive Notes On Greek Word Meaning And Context
Magi = Zoroastrian.
It was they who recognized Christ, and pledged their loyalty.
Thanks for the clarification. Do you know anything about the tombs of other biblical Patriarchs? I recall the tomb of Joseph (he who was sold into slavery by his brothers) was in moslem hands. There was some controversy with that one as well.
Anne Catherine Emmerich has a pretty good description of what their journey was like. When I read her account, I imagined a Spielberg movie with a John Williams score to go with it. A truly epic journey.
But that private revelation aside, the more you look at the early Christians, the more you realize that the family of God is one, that the Catholic church is the real deal, and evidence of this is indicated by where all the significant artifacts from the early Church are located.
***Many of us skeptical Protestants suspect that Queen Mother Helena’s tour of the Holy Land in the early 4th Century was the original tourist scam.****
You mean when the Crusaders sacked Constantinople, and took home their loot, amongst which were three heads of John the Baptist, may have been fake! How dare you! ;-)
***Wise men? More like agents of Satan. Not so wise.***
Magoi or Sophoi! “Powerful ones” or “Wise ones.”
Dwayne Edward Spencer, in his books Word Keys which Unlock Scripture, says the Magoi were probably high ranking Jews of the dispersion still in Persia who recognized this as the time of the Messiah and came to Jerusalem looking for the Christ child.
Herodotus indicates they were the priestly class of diviners of the Medes.
They were thus attempting to locate the newborn child for Herod to murder so I stand by the description of them as agents of Satan.
Try actually reading the gospel account before saying something as moronic as their being “agents of Satan.”
11And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.So because Herod decided to use the information provided him by his own chief scribes and priests, the wise men, who worshipped the toddler Jesus and who obeyed God and didn't go back to file a report with Herod, were "agents of Satan" because they had originally asked for directions?
12And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
Had they NOT been warned by God they would have returned to Herod with detailed information. The “star” led them to Jerusalem first and then to Bethlehem to find the child for Herod to murder.
They were sent off to Bethlehem by Herod and the “star” led the way. They were acting as agents of Herod and thus Satan also.
It was the artwork on my Christmas cards last year. I've always had a bit of an obsession about this painting.
Sorry if the Gospel account conflicts with your Hallmark cards and petty insults don’t change it.
“The great thing about it is that they saw the birth of the Messiah.”
Jesus was probably about two years old before the wise men saw Him. The family was living in a house at the time; Jesus wasn’t in a manger. He was a “child”, not a “babe”. There may have been more than three magi, or even two; we assume three because three separate gifts were mentioned.
You have to say it like the Church Lady, “agents of SSSSSsssssatan.” There, that is better.
What is the punishment for libel against God’s friends? The Three Wise Men are most certainly among the elect. “Saved” as it were.
May Gaspar, Melchior, and Balthazar find humor in your insult. Maybe you should ask the baby Jesus about the veracity of the story, when the visit occurred, and who they were? WWBJD Of course His Church has handed down the “rest of the story” that is introduced in the Gospel of Matthew.
“May Gaspar, Melchior, and Balthazar find humor in your insult. Maybe you should ask the baby Jesus about the veracity of the story, when the visit occurred, and who they were?”
Jesus isn’t a baby anymore. and Matthew answers those questions. But thanks anyway.
“According to the Gospel account, the wise men both worshipped Jesus and obeyed God. Doesn't sound like an agent of Satan.”
They were also astrologers, a practice condemned by God (Deut. 18) and they also obeyed Herod (Matt. 2:8).
“So they went to the capital of Israel. That's reasonable”
They were led by a “star”, not to the child Jesus but to Jerusalem and Herod. (Matt.2:2) Reasonable? Why, if this “star” was able to lead them from Jerusalem to Bethlehem? (Matt. 2:9).
“So they asked the king (according to Scripture God's chosen civil authority).”
Herod was not chosen by God to be king, being an Edomite, a people condemned by God as wicked, (Mal. 1:4) and not of the line of David or tribe of Judah.
“Furthermore, do you really think Satan would need some out of country folks coming from a far distance asking directions to discover out what all the chief scribes and priests already in Jerusalem already knew?”
What Satan needed was not the point. That's akin to asking if Satan needed Herod to do his killing for him.
The chief priests, etc. knew the where by prophecy (Matt. 2:4-6) but the when Herod learned from the astrologers and the star's appearance. (Matt. 2:7)
By this time Jesus was living in a house (Matt. 2:11) so the depictions of wise men visiting a babe in a manger just aren't so. According to Luke 1&2 it was the shepherds who visited Jesus in the manger and it was angels that made the announcements of events connected with Jesus’ birth, no stars involved.
“A bank robber asked a little old blue-haired woman how to get to First National Bank. He then went there and robbed it. The little old blue-haired woman was an accomplice or agent of the bank robber.”
Your analogy doesn't fit the account. The magi, the astrologers were not little old ladies, they were condemned to death under the Law given by God. (Lev.19 and Deut. 18).
And if one puts the very best face on their actions it would be that they were unwitting accomplices and really believed Herod the Thug wanted to worship another king of the Jews, especially one not of his family.
Had they not been warned by God not to return to Herod (Matt. 2:12) they would have had been able to give him the exact location of the house where Jesus lived.
Herod sent the astrologers to Bethlehem (Matt. 2:8) and the star led them to Jesus. (Matt. 2:9).
Thus a close examination of the account makes clear who and what these wise men were and who they were serving.
Jesus is a baby every Christmas, and His mother is the Spirit of Christmas. They ask us to contemplate the mysteries anew every year. That is the beauty of the liturgical calendar. There is a season for everything. For those who have ears to hear and eyes to see, there is much to be learned.
Jesus is a baby every Christmas, and His mother is the Spirit of Christmas. They ask us to contemplate the mysteries anew every year. That is the beauty of the liturgical calendar. There is a season for everything. For those who have ears to hear and eyes to see, there is much to be learned.
“For those who have ears to hear and eyes to see, there is much to be learned.”
So true, so true.
The “Three Wise Men” story is just one of many false notions surrounding Christmas. Even the date of the Messiah’s birth is likely all wrong—He was probably born at the end of September, though He was conceived about Dec. 25 around 3 or 4 BC (so I celerate Christmas as the day of His incarnation).
Myrrh is used in burial. A representation of The Child Jesus’ impeneding sacrifice and death for us.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.