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Defending the Faith (Catholic Caucus)
self ^ | January 8, 2010 | vanity

Posted on 01/08/2010 11:01:28 AM PST by Judith Anne

In the age of the internet, a lot of very good information is readily available for those who have sincere questions about the Catholic Church. The Catholic Encyclopedia, the Online Catechism, many good apologetic sites--all have excellent answers to nearly any question that anyone could devise.

There is really no need for FR Catholics to engage in endless religious argument, and I would like to urge us all to simply refrain. We could resign from the debating society and let those who sincerely want to learn seek it out for themselves from a local priest or look it up on the net. Others, who do not sincerely want to learn, could be ignored, and privately remembered in prayer.

Opinions from fellow Catholics?


TOPICS: Apologetics
KEYWORDS: catholics
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I have greatly benefited by my absence from the Religion Forum. Perhaps other Catholics could, as well....? Is it our duty to correct misconceptions? Is that even possible?
1 posted on 01/08/2010 11:01:29 AM PST by Judith Anne
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To: Religion Moderator

Pinging you at your request.


2 posted on 01/08/2010 11:02:39 AM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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To: Running On Empty; markomalley; Petronski; Mad Dawg; trisham; wagglebee; narses

Please ping other Catholics who might be interested.


3 posted on 01/08/2010 11:04:16 AM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: Judith Anne
Defend what is Holy.

Also, not actively debunking those that have misconceptions about Holy Mother Church and what she teaches would be wrong.

Conversing with fools is another thing all together.

5 posted on 01/08/2010 11:13:21 AM PST by frogjerk
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To: frogjerk; Rodebrecht; Salvation

LOL!


6 posted on 01/08/2010 11:15:07 AM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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To: Steelfish

Yes, but so few roses among the thorns...


7 posted on 01/08/2010 11:15:59 AM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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To: Judith Anne
Is it our duty to correct misconceptions?

"Instructing the ignorant" is one of the spiritual works of mercy. Scripture also commands to contend for the faith "once delivered to the saints," and to "give a reason for the hope that lies within [us]". Not to mention that tidbit about "Go and make disciples of all the nations".

So, yes, it's absolutely our duty.

8 posted on 01/08/2010 11:16:50 AM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: Judith Anne; All
Thank you.

All: This Religion Forum thread is labeled "Catholic Caucus" meaning if you are not Catholic, do not post on this thread.

Also, to maintain the caucus, the beliefs of non-Catholics must not be mentioned otherwise they will have an interest in speaking for themselves.

9 posted on 01/08/2010 11:18:11 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Judith Anne; Petronski; MarkBsnr; Mad Dawg; markomalley

I am sort of torn.

On the one hand, I have at times experienced intense resentment and found it necessary to ignore the Religion Forum for a while.

On the other hand, I do not want to see blatant lies about the Catholic Church go unanswered.


10 posted on 01/08/2010 11:18:50 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Religion Moderator; Judith Anne
Also, to maintain the caucus, the beliefs of non-Catholics must not be mentioned otherwise they will have an interest in speaking for themselves.

Can non-Catholics be mentioned generically? For instance can they be referred to as "anti-Catholics" or "enemies of the Church"?

11 posted on 01/08/2010 11:20:47 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Campion; Ronaldus Magnus

Sure, but are we the best ones to do that? Not all of us Catholics have the same gifts to give the Church. Instructing the ignorant is not one of my spiritual jobs because I’m no good at it. Instead, I must choose other corporal and spiritual works of mercy.


12 posted on 01/08/2010 11:21:18 AM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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To: wagglebee

But remember what Christ said? “Blessed are you when men shall revile you and persecute you and say all manner of evil against you for My sake.”

Such an opportunity to be blessed! A silent smile is a good response, and a prayer...


13 posted on 01/08/2010 11:23:44 AM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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To: frogjerk; Judith Anne; Petronski; MarkBsnr; Mad Dawg; markomalley
Conversing with fools is another thing all together.

Very true.

Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you. (Matthew 7:6)

14 posted on 01/08/2010 11:24:16 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
Non Catholics can be mentioned but not non-Catholic beliefs.

For instance, "non-Catholics speaking of the Rosary should be ignored" is not describing non-Catholic beliefs and is therefore ok for the caucus.

But saying "non-Catholics who say we worship Mary should be ignored" is describing beliefs of non-members and is not ok for a caucus, i.e. they would have an interest in speaking for themselves.

15 posted on 01/08/2010 11:27:25 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: sitetest

I’m sorry I didn’t ping you until now, I’m going down my list of Catholic FRiends.


16 posted on 01/08/2010 11:32:07 AM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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To: Cronos

ping


17 posted on 01/08/2010 11:35:01 AM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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To: Judith Anne
Not sure why I was pinged, but I'll jump in.

I've seen some pretty outrageous things directed at the Church in the religion forums. I think not addressing and defending against them so as to prevent friendly or even neutral non-Catholics from getting any misconceptions about the Church or its teachings would be a shame.
18 posted on 01/08/2010 11:35:58 AM PST by Rodebrecht (Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.)
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: Rodebrecht

I pinged you because I liked your comments on another thread.


20 posted on 01/08/2010 11:40:48 AM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: Judith Anne
Thanks for the idea and for the ping. I'm wondering if the way to do this is to "abstain for a season." Even those who don't think we should refrain forever could agree for a Lent of silence. I don't know. It's interesting. It's a heck of a challenge. Parable: The other day I was at evening prayer with somebody who didn't usually pray the office. So I'm reciting the Magnificat from memory and this person gets a verse wrong and I am immediately confused and lose my place and have to grab a breviary. Of course, it's silly and not a big deal. But I DID think, "I guess I don't know the Magnificat as well as I thought I did."

THEN I thought, Hey, this is like virtue. I go along being all genial and funny warm and fuzzy and think I'm quite the dude. But when I encounter some gratuitously nasty person, I lose all that niceness in a heart beat. There's a lot I don't know as well as I thought I did, and maybe working here is a good training ground and diagnostic all in one.

22 posted on 01/08/2010 11:49:08 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg

We learn our faults in company with others...but sometimes we don’t see them until we step back.


23 posted on 01/08/2010 11:54:43 AM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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To: Mad Dawg; Judith Anne

I refrained from most of the more heated threads last year during Lent and felt much better.


24 posted on 01/08/2010 11:56:37 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Religion Moderator

Thanks. I absolutely agree.

Non-Catholics speaking of the Rosary SHOULD be ignored. So should non-Catholics speaking of the masgesterium.


25 posted on 01/08/2010 12:01:16 PM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: Judith Anne
I see my post didn't last long. I'm not surprised.
Got to have a thick skin is what I'm told.

Hypocrisy so thick it wouldn't fit on a sandwich.

Let's just say, you can't reach certain people. They don't want to be reached. Correct those who are honest in their mistakes but quickly recognize those that don't want to be corrected and drive on.

There, that should be bland enough.

27 posted on 01/08/2010 12:02:15 PM PST by IrishCatholic (No local Communist or Socialist Party Chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing!)
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To: wagglebee

Instead of worrying about what others believe and are saying, we turn toward God and our own spiritual growth. If we are completely misunderstood by a non-Catholic, so what?


28 posted on 01/08/2010 12:04:47 PM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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To: Judith Anne; Petronski; vladimir998; narses; NYer; Salvation; Pyro7480; All
For me, I tend to believe that the correct course of action is to charitably correct the errors a few times. We should do our best to assure that those folks who are against the Church do not have to excuse of invincible ignorance.

But the key is charitably, with patience, but firmly.

Titus 3:

1 Admonish them to be subject to princes and powers, to obey at a word, to be ready to every good work.
2 To speak evil of no man, not to be litigious but gentle: showing all mildness towards all men.
3 For we ourselves also were some time unwise, incredulous, erring, slaves to divers desires and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.
4 But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared:
5 Not by the works of justice which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration and renovation of the Holy Ghost.
6 Whom he has poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour:
7 That, being justified by his grace, we may be heirs according to hope of life everlasting.
8 It is a faithful saying. And these things I will have you affirm constantly, that they who believe in God may be careful to excel in good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
9 But avoid foolish questions and genealogies and contentions and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid:
11 Knowing that he that is such an one is subverted and sins, being condemned by his own judgment.

The point being that you should contend for the Faith, but descending into empty argument is just not worth it:

2 Tim 2
14 Of these things put them in mind, charging them before the Lord. Contend not in words: for it is to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Carefully study* to present yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they grow much towards ungodliness.
17 And their speech spreads like a canker
: of whom are Hymeneus and Philetus:
18 Who have erred from the truth, saying that the resurrection is past already, and have subverted the faith of some.
19 But the sure foundation of God stands firm, having this seal: the Lord knows who are his; and let every one depart from iniquity who names the name of the Lord.

* The Greek for Study is "spoudazō" -- meaning to be diligent

And if you get too frustrated, you can gain some comfort from reading Psalm 2. Tho' I'm not much of a fan of the KJV, in this case, the KJV is the most satisfying: Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?…

29 posted on 01/08/2010 12:06:41 PM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: Judith Anne

My real concern are the lurkers who will be lead to damnation by some here.


30 posted on 01/08/2010 12:11:56 PM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Judith Anne
I don't know if I qualify as a Catholic Caucus member or not. I'm baptized Catholic, try to pray the rosary daily, and attend Mass but have some steps to take before returning to communion. If I shouldn't be here, please let me know and I'll ask to have my post removed.

I would like to say, while I don't envy the ire directed toward the Catholics who participate in the Religion Forum, and I know I'm certainly not equipped to defend the faith myself, it was as a lurker here that I became convinced that either the Catholics or the Orthodox have it right. If someone here hadn't been answering what was being said, I might not have necessarily believed the things that were being presented, but would probably have continued operating on the assumption that the dogmas of most churches on the subjects we see debated here is mostly a reflection of each group's personal or preferred understanding of things that maybe can't actually be known. It was the demonstration here of the Church's historical continuity and internal consistency through the last 2000 years that has convinced me that it (along with the Orthodox) is the true Church.

(I will admit, it was the contentiousness that kept me reading long enough to learn this; some of the threads here can be gruesomely fascinating.)

31 posted on 01/08/2010 12:13:56 PM PST by Kanakabaraka
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To: mlizzy; Religion Moderator

Well, I decided to make this a Catholic Caucus thread, because I don’t want to criticize anyone else in particular, and I wanted to talk without interruption from non-Catholics. The RM is simply following and enforcing the rules—protecting our closed doors.

I do not know nor care what confession the RM is. I just want to have my Catholic FRiends consider the idea of a “fast” from arguing with anyone who may want to criticize or denigrate our Church. In my opinion, it does no one any good. Just my opinion.


32 posted on 01/08/2010 12:14:35 PM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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To: Kanakabaraka

You are welcome.


33 posted on 01/08/2010 12:15:30 PM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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To: Judith Anne

As long as both sides in the biggest disputes think I am a member of the opposition, then I am confident that I’m being even-handed. If any one side stopped complaining, I’d have cause for concern.


34 posted on 01/08/2010 12:18:33 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Kanakabaraka

“Gruesomely fascinating” — ROFLLMTO!!!!

So well said...


35 posted on 01/08/2010 12:20:26 PM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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To: Judith Anne
Oh, I didn't even realize Catholic Caucus threads did not allow non-Catholics.

Just a newbie here I guess ... sorry ...
36 posted on 01/08/2010 12:21:14 PM PST by mlizzy ("Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person" --Mother Teresa.)
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To: wagglebee
My real concern are the lurkers who will be lead to damnation by some here.

Understood. For them I pray daily. God will surely bless them, and will call each one to Himself; evil is everywhere, sometimes most especially on the RF in my opinion.

37 posted on 01/08/2010 12:22:55 PM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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To: IrishCatholic

You are awesome, and could never be accurately accused of being bland!


38 posted on 01/08/2010 12:24:52 PM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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To: markomalley

What a wonderful post! Thank you very much.


39 posted on 01/08/2010 12:26:55 PM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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To: Mad Dawg
I go along being all genial and funny warm and fuzzy and think I'm quite the dude. But when I encounter some gratuitously nasty person, I lose all that niceness in a heart beat.

Oh, boy, not me. I'm ALWAYS nice. /sarc!

40 posted on 01/08/2010 12:28:35 PM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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To: mlizzy

No apology necessary. The Religion Forum is sort of complicated.


41 posted on 01/08/2010 12:33:49 PM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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To: Judith Anne; Religion Moderator; NYer; Salvation; MarkBsnr

I understand and respect your position. I do have a question though. Can non-catholic but Catholic friendly posters be invited to the thread?

Salvation, Mark and NYer can all testify that although I am not Catholic I grew up in a Catholic school and study the Holy Mother church professionally and am friendly to the RC faith.

JA, if you feel this question is inappropriate, feel free to hit abuse on it.


42 posted on 01/08/2010 12:40:00 PM PST by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Judith Anne

No problem. Interesting questions. Thanks.


43 posted on 01/08/2010 12:40:20 PM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Kanakabaraka
One memorare going out for you to get yo'se'f as far of the way back into communion as possible. It is SUCH a gift!

And your testimony is important and I think it makes an argument that while a fast which the entire Caucus or most of it agreed to would be wonderful, withdrawing forever would be to neglect a work of mercy and an important apostolate.

(And I don't think I could do it. I'm FULL of good reasons for stuff I want to do.)

44 posted on 01/08/2010 12:43:20 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Kanakabaraka

“...some of the threads here can be gruesomely fascinating.”

ROTFLMAO!! Great post!


45 posted on 01/08/2010 12:43:53 PM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Kanakabaraka; Judith Anne; Mad Dawg; sitetest; Petronski; MarkBsnr; markomalley; Salvation; NYer; ..
I don't know if I qualify as a Catholic Caucus member or not. I'm baptized Catholic, try to pray the rosary daily, and attend Mass but have some steps to take before returning to communion. If I shouldn't be here, please let me know and I'll ask to have my post removed.

I would like to say, while I don't envy the ire directed toward the Catholics who participate in the Religion Forum, and I know I'm certainly not equipped to defend the faith myself, it was as a lurker here that I became convinced that either the Catholics or the Orthodox have it right. If someone here hadn't been answering what was being said, I might not have necessarily believed the things that were being presented, but would probably have continued operating on the assumption that the dogmas of most churches on the subjects we see debated here is mostly a reflection of each group's personal or preferred understanding of things that maybe can't actually be known. It was the demonstration here of the Church's historical continuity and internal consistency through the last 2000 years that has convinced me that it (along with the Orthodox) is the true Church.

(I will admit, it was the contentiousness that kept me reading long enough to learn this; some of the threads here can be gruesomely fascinating.)

Thank you for your post, it was fantastic and made a lot of other threads seem "worth it"!

By all means you belong here!

46 posted on 01/08/2010 12:44:33 PM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: sitetest

I feel it’s my duty to correct misunderstandings where they arise. If some people are tired of doing so, by all means take a break.


47 posted on 01/08/2010 12:45:59 PM PST by BenKenobi (;)
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To: All

So, some of us want to keep on verbally defending the faith, others of us not so much...

I envision a non-Catholic thread discussing Catholic beliefs, with no participation from any Catholics at all...because we are all fasting from conflict!

Or, we could limit our participation strictly to prayers for the spiritual welfare of the non-Catholics, and nothing else...?

Any other suggestions not involving mayhem?


48 posted on 01/08/2010 12:46:28 PM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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To: reaganaut

You are welcome. :D


49 posted on 01/08/2010 12:48:13 PM PST by Judith Anne (Drill in the USA and offshore USA!! Drill NOW and build more refineries!!!! Defund the EPA!)
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To: Judith Anne
Any other suggestions not involving mayhem?

Wait. Why are we ruling out mayhem?

Jeez! A fellow gets asthma and all of a sudden we gotta make NICE? What I'm gone do wif all this ammo?

50 posted on 01/08/2010 12:50:56 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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