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Is there really a God who can heal or cure people?
Examiner.com ^ | Jan. 09, 2010 | Réne Girard

Posted on 01/09/2010 8:06:11 AM PST by RGirard

... Is there a God who can bring the rain, heal or cure people, or make those little white lotto balls fall into just the right place for you?

If you don't believe in God, or any gods, then the answer would be a resounding "No!" because God doesn't exist so expecting a non-existant entity to do anything for you is simply a waste of time.

If you do believe in God, or multiple gods, then the answer would be a definite "Yes!" because either you have heard stories or had a personal experience which caused you to believe.

... Jesus was known for working miracles, including healing people of incurable disease. He reportedly said: "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

So today many people who believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord God will pray for healing, but they don't always get what they want. Many times their prayers are unanswered and sometimes they get discouraged or sad. Some get downright angry when God doesn't work a miracle for them. Others are convinced they do not have enough faith.

But the Bible tells us that some people are sick because they take communion unworthily ... others pray "amiss" (inaccurately). Many are seperated from God because of their sinful behavior, so He will not even listen to their prayers...

... it would be irresponsible of God to answer everyone's prayers in the affirmative ...

(Excerpt) Read more at examiner.com ...


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; Other Christian; Prayer; Skeptics/Seekers
KEYWORDS: bandwidththief; bloggymcblogger; blogpimp; blogselfpromo; blogspam; checkoutmyblog; comeseemyblog; didjareadmyblog; healing; ihaveablog; iminteresting; jesus; listentome; lookatme; lottery; payattentiontome; pimpmyblog; prayer; readme; readmyblog; readmyramblings; trollingforhits
photo from article which includes links and examples of healing
1 posted on 01/09/2010 8:06:11 AM PST by RGirard
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To: RGirard
If you do believe in God, or multiple gods, then the answer would be a definite "Yes!" because either you have heard stories or had a personal experience which caused you to believe.

Er, there's a little more to it than that.

2 posted on 01/09/2010 8:13:10 AM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus ("A politician who is poor is a poor politician." - Hank Gonzales)
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To: RGirard

From the beginning, since Lucifer was created, the evil one has been trying to manipulate God. Using people praying is but one method the nasty hater of life employs. ... ‘Ever heard an atheist spittle the question, ‘So, if God is love, why does He allow all the suffering in the world; why does He allow people to do evil, murderous, despicable things to innocent people?’


3 posted on 01/09/2010 8:16:18 AM PST by MHGinTN (Obots, believing they cannot be deceived, it is impossible to convince them when they are deceived.)
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To: RGirard

From the beginning, since Lucifer was created, the evil one has been trying to manipulate God. Using people praying is but one method the nasty father of lies murderer from the start employs. ... Ever heard a scoffer spittle the question, ‘So, if God is love, why does He allow all the suffering in the world; why does He allow people to do evil, murderous, despicable things to innocent people?’


4 posted on 01/09/2010 8:17:37 AM PST by MHGinTN (Obots, believing they cannot be deceived, it is impossible to convince them when they are deceived.)
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To: RGirard

5 posted on 01/09/2010 8:18:48 AM PST by notaliberal (Palin supporter)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Er, there's a little more to it than that.

Nah, I think anecdotal evidence is the best they've got. I especially like the part about people getting sick because they took communion unworthily : )

6 posted on 01/09/2010 8:19:44 AM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: LeGrande
I especially like the part about people getting sick because they took communion unworthily : )

Yeah. I'd like to see the Bible verse on that one!

7 posted on 01/09/2010 8:25:24 AM PST by mollynme (cogito, ergo freepum)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

I once heard in a sales seminar that fear of loss is a greater motivator than opportunity for gain.

If I am wrong, and there is no God, what have I lost? Nothing.

If the atheist is wrong and there is a God, what has he lost? Everything!


8 posted on 01/09/2010 8:26:31 AM PST by JimRed ("Hey, hey, Teddy K., hot enough down there today?" TERM LIMITS, NOW AND FOREVER!)
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To: LeGrande

I hope you will read the rest of the article. :-)


9 posted on 01/09/2010 8:28:14 AM PST by RGirard ("If you read just one book this year ... " by An American Man)
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To: MHGinTN

‘Ever heard an atheist spittle the question, ‘So, if God is love, why does He allow all the suffering in the world; why does He allow people to do evil, murderous, despicable things to innocent people?’

You've got it. It's not God. We die because of sin, and no one is immune from the suffering of dying...not the Pope, nor even my poor wife, who like the Pope, has lingered for more than a year. Death for her would be a blessing.

10 posted on 01/09/2010 8:28:52 AM PST by norge (The amiable dunce is back, wearing a skirt and high heels.)
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To: mollynme
27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.

28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.

29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

I Corinthians 11: 27-30

11 posted on 01/09/2010 8:34:24 AM PST by Harmless Teddy Bear (I miss the competent fiscal policy and flag waving patriotism of the Carter Administration)
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To: Harmless Teddy Bear; mollynme

Ask and ye shall receive.


12 posted on 01/09/2010 8:38:53 AM PST by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: mollynme; LeGrande

Yeah. I'd like to see the Bible verse on that one!

Just for reference you may want to check out I Corinthians 11, verses 23 through 30.

13 posted on 01/09/2010 8:42:12 AM PST by norge (The amiable dunce is back, wearing a skirt and high heels.)
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To: RGirard

The answer of course, is James 5:15.


14 posted on 01/09/2010 8:46:39 AM PST by norge (The amiable dunce is back, wearing a skirt and high heels.)
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To: RGirard

I’ve know people who’ve had life-threatening diseases that were prayed over and made amazing recoveries that left the Doctors scratching their heads in bewilderment.

On the other hand, I’ve also seen many people prayed over that have made no recovery at all and died anyway.

Some prayers simply go unanswered. I just don’t know why.


15 posted on 01/09/2010 9:00:13 AM PST by reagan_fanatic (Bush at his worst was still better than Obama at his best.)
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To: RGirard
"If every prayer was answered for every grandmother or grandfather on his/her deathbed, then this earth would be overrun with decrepid old people. If every prayer was answered for healing, then the earth would be overrun with healthy old people. If everyone asked to never grow old, then the earth would be overrun with people who would simply live as recklessly as they wanted because all they would ever have to do was ask God anything and He would always say "Yes! Yes to everyone!"

Once, I asked my oncologist how is it that MY prayers were answered and yet, I witnessed many faithful people passing thru his waiting room that we both knew were not going to get better.

He simply said "I don't know why God chooses to heal some people, and not others".

It seemed the good Doctor's faith was not shattered or even diminished by those who were not healed, but instead fortified when he saw people who were told "no" by God, yet they still remained stead fast in their love for the Lord.

I've often wondered if those who weren't blessed with a healing and still rejoiced in the Lord were the very people that God chose to spend eternity with him in heaven. The rest of us are still being tested.

sw

16 posted on 01/09/2010 9:04:09 AM PST by spectre (Spectre's wife (11/02/10)
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To: Harmless Teddy Bear
27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.

Yikes.

Thanks for pointing this out. But can we ever be worthy? That really scares me.

17 posted on 01/09/2010 9:05:32 AM PST by pnh102 (Regarding liberalism, always attribute to malice what you think can be explained by stupidity. - Me)
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To: RGirard

I still struggle with healing in regards to my own faith.

I have a friend from my church who moved last year, and he is going to a new church in Redding, California. He claims that lots of people have been healed at his new church. He’s a good guy, so I don’t know what to make of his claims.

Then, I had one strange event. My twin daughters almost died when they were 6 weeks old. We didn’t have any family where we were living, and we were fairly new to our neighborhood. I knew of a Christian family across the street. They took care of my 2 year old on Christmas Eve until my mom could fly out.

Then I got horrible news when my husband was not with me. The doctors sat me down, and said one of my daughters probably had a brain injury.

When I told our neighbors this news, the man said he had a dream the night before and God told him to tell me that everything was going to be okay. I really did not know him well at the time. However, when he told me this I was overcome with calm.

Now, my daughters are 13 and neither one of them died. One does have a brain injury, but she is okay. She is not in a wheelchair. She is in a good private Christian school. She has speech problems and she had a seizure a few years ago and has been on anti-seizure medication, but she is a great kid.

Her faith is also very strong. Her favorite Bible verse is Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.”

I was a very weak Christian before this happened, and I’ve never doubted my own faith afterward. I don’t know if God healed my daughter, but He did not give me more than I could handle, and He’s used her problems wisely. I’m also great friends with the family that helped us. The woman is one of my very dearest friends, and the man who had the dream still talks about that night.

Still don’t know about all the miraculous healings. I’m very mistrustful of men. I know it can happen, but I think there are men that take advantage of other men.


18 posted on 01/09/2010 9:16:31 AM PST by luckystarmom
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To: luckystarmom
I’m very mistrustful of men. I know it can happen, but I think there are men that take advantage of other men.

Are you equally mistrustful of women?

19 posted on 01/09/2010 9:50:15 AM PST by Dr. North
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To: JimRed

And not only have you lost nothing by believing in God, the rest of society has probably received better behavior from you in general for the time you did believe in God. Because you were trying to live as you understood God wanted you to live with others.


20 posted on 01/09/2010 9:54:14 AM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: RGirard

[[Many times their prayers are unanswered and sometimes they get discouraged or sad.]]

Prayers are always answered- we may not like the answers, but they are always answered. One can ‘pray for healing’ but it may be that God’s will is for hte person to be brought home with Him that His will on earth be furthered. It may very well be that the only hting that will cause someone to be saved who hoped for hte sick person to get better, was the fact that the sick person didn’t get better but infact went home to be with God, and the sick person’s faith and testimony to God htrough it all caused the other person to reflect on their own soul’s condition.

God knows what He is doing- even if we can’t see it- We’re very shortsighted- God sees the future, sees people’s spiritual conditions, knows what it wil ltake to get that person saved, and knows what is best. The seed that is planted today by an event may not come to fruition until many years later in someone’s life- but of course the skeptic is so shortsighted, al lthey see is that the sick person didn’t get better after praying, and so therefore, ‘there must be no God’ and ‘people are fools for praying to someone who isn’t htere’


21 posted on 01/09/2010 9:55:23 AM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: pnh102

The “unworthy manner” I believe covers a couple different kinds of people. People openly defying Christ’s teachings yet calling themselves Christian. For example, pro abortion politicians that claim to be practicing Christians. People actively using a Christian veneer to their advantage, but not really believing in Christ. The Christians in name only, that may “go to church”, but are not saved. Those that view church as a club-type/social group place to get together and just go through the motions of worship.


22 posted on 01/09/2010 10:02:55 AM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: luckystarmom

[[I still struggle with healing in regards to my own faith.]]

We all do. Some more than others- there are no TRUE miracles today- and by TRUE- I’m talking about the miracles that leave NO doubt Christ was God’s Son sent ot earth for hte salvation of man. We’re talkign about hte dead- the TRULY dead, rising fro mthe dead AFTER putrification process has started, liek several in the bible did- Restoring eyesight, Rising fro mthe dead after the crucifixion, walking on water -commanding hte sea to calm etc.

[[Still don’t know about all the miraculous healings. I’m very mistrustful of men.]]

And well you shoudl be- there are NO TRUE miracles today (note, this does NOT mean that God doesn’t still heal, He does- but as for TRUE miracles- Raising putrified dead people to life, restoring an ear (soem say it was the centurion’s head and not his ear that Peter cut off)- restoring sight, walking on water etc, do NOT happen today.

Miracles were NEEDED in the early days because the Jews were expectign a Savior, and God KNEW that when Christ came, and didn’t act accordign to the views of the Jews (They wanted a conquering King- Someone who would conquer the enemy and establish Jewish reign- God’s wil l, and Christ’s job however, was to conquer sin- not nations, and hte Jews wouldn’t accept this- ) Christ’s miracles were meant ot PROVE that He was idneed the Christ- the Son of God- His miracles left NO doubt as to His Godship, and His miracles were VERY Jewish oriented for htis very reason (There is a study of the Jewish nature of ALL of Christ’s miracles, and hte Jewish implications of htem iracles so that the Jews could NOT deny He was the Christ- very fascinating deep look into the implications of Christ’s miracles and the Jewish meanings beghhind them)

The Apostles were also given the powers of Christ while the EARLY church was beign established, to give testimony that Christ was who He said He was- Jews were still hesitent to accept the humble Christ- they still wanted their conquering king, and many infact stil lwould not accept Him even after witnessing His and hte Apostle’s Jewish specific TRUE miracles- many stil lto this day won’t accept He was the Christ, and stil lthink Christ has yet to coem to earth- howeverm, the TRUE miracles that were performed are written down by eyewitness accounts for all to plainly see.

he ability to perform miracles was NOT given to every beleiver, nor is htere any indicsation in God’s word that God charges people AFTER the apostles with hte ability to perform miracles. The ability to perform miracles- TRUE miracles ceased AFTER the early church was established, and AFTER the Jews- those who acknowledged Christ was who He said He was, join4d the church and became part of hte body of Christ.

[[He did not give me more than I could handle, and He’s used her problems wisely.]]

God ALWAYS uses every situation wisely- We may be too shortsighted to see HOW God is using situations, but He ALWAYS works for His own purposes- Just trust Him that He knows what He is doing and WHY He is doing whatever it is you are faced with.

I know htis is tough to do- beleive me I know- I’ve had a miserable life healthwise, and have had many close calls with death- more than I care to thin about- and htere are times I BEG God to just end it because I can’t take it anymore (usually this happens when I’m so down physically, that I am too down mentally to stand storng it anymore)

we don’t have to like how our lives are going, or to be cheerfully fake about how we feel, and God certainly understands- but do try to TRULY accept His will for better or worse for HIS Glory- not simply for our comfort.

your faith is stronger than you realize- the simple fact that it bothers you from time to time shows that your faith is strong- those who have little faith would simpyl give up and never have anythign to do with God again- God said the road is narrow and difficult- and few will pass through this difficult journey belevign in Him. you’re doign fine so far (and wil lcontinue to no matter how difficult things may become) :)


23 posted on 01/09/2010 10:20:16 AM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: reagan_fanatic
Some prayers simply go unanswered. I just don’t know why.

I believe that God can and does answer prayer miraculously (though not in the "Benny Hinn" sense). A lot of the reason why prayer is NOT answered has to do with the fact that the one(s) praying are not, themselves, right with God (Ps. 66:18). That's not the only reason, I'm sure, but that right there is a biblical answer to why so many prayers go unanswered. In other cases, especially when people are praying for "things" and treating God like a cosmic candy machine, it has to do with the fact that prayers that are selfish will not be answered (James 4:3). And always, there is the fact that many times, what we're praying for, while perhaps not in and of itself bad or selfish, is simply not within the will of God for us (I John 5:14).

There are many stipulations about prayer that the Bible sets that many preachers seem to ignore today. Prayer is not just a matter of "If *I* want it bad enough, God has to give it to me." As Americans, we don't like to hear that, since we're so used to getting what we want, when we want it. Nevertheless, it is the truth.

24 posted on 01/09/2010 10:46:54 AM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus ("A politician who is poor is a poor politician." - Hank Gonzales)
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To: Dr. North

I’m old fashioned and still think that man could actually mean man/woman.


25 posted on 01/09/2010 10:54:15 AM PST by luckystarmom
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To: Dr. North

I’m old fashioned and still think that man could actually mean man/woman.


26 posted on 01/09/2010 10:54:18 AM PST by luckystarmom
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To: CottShop

There are definitely “true” miracles today ... if you can’t do it, and I can’t do it, and no one else can do it, but God can do it, and does, then it’s a miracle.


27 posted on 01/09/2010 1:12:13 PM PST by RGirard ("If you read just one book this year ... " by An American Man)
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To: spectre

You are right - sometimes, in God’s infinite wisdom and mercy, he allows a person’s life to end on this sinful earth, while others may need more time to come to the Lord, to be refined, or for God to finish a work He started in them.

I’m glad I am still here. It means I’ve got more work to do before I am ready for eternity. And for that I am thankful.


28 posted on 01/09/2010 1:18:54 PM PST by RGirard ("If you read just one book this year ... " by An American Man)
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To: RGirard

[[There are definitely “true” miracles today ... if you can’t do it, and I can’t do it, and no one else can do it, but God can do it, and does, then it’s a miracle.]]

There are spectacular healings to be sure, usually happening perfectly inline with natural laws healings today follow some basic scientific principles even if we don’t understand how they occured yet- however TRUE miracles defy natural laws- a TRUE miracle would be restoring a lost limb, supernaturally creating the lost part, raising someoen fro mthe dead (after true death and decay have set in, as in the cases cited i nthe bible)

“A. No Modern Events Have the Characteristics of Bible Miracles.

D. The Bible Teaches That Miracles Would Cease When Their Purpose Was Fulfilled.
1 Corinthians 13:8-11 - A prophecy that spiritual gifts would cease
The context - chaps. 12,13, and 14 all discuss spiritual gifts.

Chap. 12 lists the gifts (12:4-11) and shows they all had a useful purpose at the time they existed.

A. Those Who Seek Signs Are a “Wicked and Adulterous Generation” - Matt. 12:38,39.

In reality, Matthew 12 rebukes those who still want miracles today.
They have already been given adequate evidence of miracles as recorded in the Scripture (John 20:30,31). But they are not satisfied with those miracles, so they continue to ask for more! That is exactly what Jesus did rebuke.”

http://www.gospelway.com/god/miracles_duration.php

We need to be very careful about elevating spectacular healings (which may leave doctors scrathcing hteir heads) to the level of the TRUE ‘miracles’ that Christ and the Apostles did during hte age that TRUE miracles were needed for a witness to Christ’s Godship to the wayward Jews in that period.


29 posted on 01/09/2010 1:34:34 PM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: pnh102
Only when we have been forgiven can we be worthy.

This is why a number of churches have you prepare for Communion by either confession or a time of prayer and repentance.

30 posted on 01/09/2010 1:44:33 PM PST by Harmless Teddy Bear (I miss the competent fiscal policy and flag waving patriotism of the Carter Administration)
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To: RGirard

To perhaps clear htis up a bit, A miracle supercedes nature- like Jesus takign the few fish and few loaves of bread, and feedign thousands miraculously. God’s extraordinary graciousnesness towards us however follows natural processes which usually and almost always is explained naturally, even htough it’s extraordinary, it’s still not supernatural (superceeding nature- suspending nature in order for the miracle to happen- such as the parting of the red sea). The purpose of miracles has ceased, but that does not mean that God stopped being extraordinarily gracious towards us when we certainly don’t deserve for Him to be except through Jesus Christ who cleansed us from all sin.


31 posted on 01/09/2010 1:47:11 PM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: Harmless Teddy Bear
I used to never take communion because I always felt -unworthy' however, a few years ago I learned that the writer was talking about the practice of the folks during that time wjhen they woudl go to church communions simply because they were desirign to fil ltheir gullets and drink till drunk instead of taking time to reflect on their appreciation to God "1Co 11:27 - Wherefore - (ὥστε hōste). So that, or it follows from what has been said. If this be the origin and intention of the Lord’s Supper, then it follows that whoever partakes of it in an improper manner is guilty of his body and blood. The design of Paul is to correct their improper mode of observing this ordinance; and having showed them the true nature and design of the institution, he now states the consequences of partaking of it in an improper manner. Shall eat this bread - See 1Co_11:26. Paul still calls it bread, and shows thus that he was a stranger to the doctrine that the bread was changed into the very body of the Lord Jesus. If the papal doctrine of transubstantiation had been true, Paul could not have called it bread. The Romanists do not believe that it is bread, nor would they call it such; and this shows how needful it is for them to keep the Scriptures from the people, and how impossible to express their dogmas in the language of the Bible. Let Christians adhere to the simple language of the Bible, and there is no danger of their falling into the errors of the papists. Unworthily - Perhaps there is no expression in the Bible that has given more trouble to weak and feeble Christians than this. It is certain that there is no one that has operated to deter so many from the communion; or that is so often made use of as an excuse for not making a profession of religion. The excuse is, “I am unworthy to partake of this holy ordinance. I shall only expose myself to condemnation. I must therefore wait until I become more worthy, and better prepared to celebrate it.” It is important, therefore, that there should he a correct understanding of this passage. Most persons interpret it as if it were “unworthy,” and not “unworthily,” and seem to suppose that it refers to their personal qualifications, to their “unfitness” to partake of it, rather than to the manner in which it is done. It is to he remembered, therefore. that the word used here is an “adverb,” and not an “adjective,” and has reference to the manner of observing the ordinance, and not to their personal qualifications or fitness. It is true that in ourselves we are all “unworthy” of an approach to the table of the Lord; “unworthy” to be regarded as his followers; “unworthy” of a title to everlasting life: but it does not follow that we may not partake of this ordinance in a worthy, that is, a proper manner, with a deep sense of our sinfulness, our need of a Saviour, and with some just views of the Lord Jesus as our Redeemer. Whatever may be our consciousness of personal unworthiness and unfitness - and that consciousness cannot be too deep - yet we may have such love to Christ, and such a desire to be saved by him, and such a sense of his worthiness, as to make it proper for us to approach and partake of this ordinance. The term “unworthily” (ἀναξίως anaxiōs) means properly “in an unworthy or improper” manner “in a manner unsuitable to the purposes for which it was designed or instituted;” and may include the following things, namely: (1) Such an irregular and indecent observance as existed in the church of Corinth, where even gluttony and intemperance prevailed under the professed design of celebrating the Lord’s Supper. (2) an observance of the ordinance where there should be no distinction between it and common meals (Note on 1Co_11:29); where they did not regard it as designed to show forth the death of the Lord Jesus. It is evident that where such views prevailed, there could be no proper qualification for this observance; and it is equally clear that such ignorance can hardly be supposed to prevail now in those lands which are illuminated by Christian truth. (3) when it is done for the sake of mockery, and when the purpose is to deride religion, and to show a marked contempt for the ordinances of the gospel. It is a remarkable fact that many infidels have been so full of malignity and bitterness against the Christian religion as to observe a mock celebration of the Lord’s Supper. There is no profounder depth of depravity than this; there is nothing that can more conclusively or painfully show the hostility of man to the gospel of God. It is a remarkable fact, also, that not a few such persons have died a most miserable death. Under the horrors of an accusing conscience, and the anticipated destiny of final damnation, they have left the world as frightful monuments of the justice of God. It is also a fact that not a few infidels who have been engaged in such unholy celebrations have been converted to that very gospel which they were thus turning into ridicule and scorn. Their consciences have been alarmed; they have shuddered at the remembrance of the crime; they have been overwhelmed with the consciousness of guilt, and have found no peace until they have found it in that blood whose shedding they were thus profanely celebrating. And: 1Co 11:27 - Whosoever shall eat - and drink - unworthily - To put a final end to controversies and perplexities relative to these words and the context, let the reader observe, that to eat and drink the bread and wine in the Lord’s Supper unworthily, is to eat and drink as the Corinthians did, who ate it not in reference to Jesus Christ’s sacrificial death; but rather in such a way as the Israelites did the passover, which they celebrated in remembrance of their deliverance from Egyptian bondage. Likewise, these mongrel Christians at Corinth used it as a kind of historical commemoration of the death of Christ; and did not, in the whole institution, discern the Lord’s body and blood as a sacrificial offering for sin: and besides, in their celebration of it they acted in a way utterly unbecoming the gravity of a sacred ordinance. Those who acknowledge it as a sacrificial offering, and receive it in remembrance of God’s love to them in sending his Son into the world, can neither bring damnation upon themselves by so doing, nor eat nor drink unworthily. See our translation of this verse vindicated at the end of the chapter, (1Co_11:34). Shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. If he use it irreverently, if he deny that Christ suffered unjustly, (for of some such persons the apostle must be understood to speak), then he in effect joins issue with the Jews in their condemnation and crucifixion of the Lord Jesus, and renders himself guilty of the death of our blessed Lord. Some, however, understand the passage thus: is guilty, i.e. eats and drinks unworthily, and brings on himself that punishment mentioned 1Co_11:30. And whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. The bread and cup are called the bread and cup of the Lord; because ate and drank in remembrance of him, being symbols of his body and of his blood, though not they themselves; these may be eaten and drank "unworthily", when they are eaten and drank by unworthy persons, in an unworthy manner, and to unworthy ends and purposes. The Lord's supper may be taken unworthily, when it is partook of by unworthy persons. This sense is confirmed by the Syriac version, which renders it ולא שוא לה, "and is not fit for it", or is unworthy of it, and so the Ethiopic version; now such are all unregenerate persons, for they have no spiritual life in them, and therefore cannot eat and drink in a spiritual sense; they have no spiritual light, and therefore cannot discern the Lord's body; they have no spiritual taste and relish, no spiritual hungerings and thirstings, nor any spiritual appetite, and can receive no spiritual nourishment, or have any spiritual communion with Christ: and so are all such persons, who, though they may profess to be penitent ones, and believers in Christ, and to have knowledge of him, and love to him; and yet they have not true repentance, neither do they bring forth fruits meet for it, and so as they are improper subjects of baptism, they are unworthy of the Lord's table; nor have they faith in Christ, at least only an historical one, and so cannot by faith eat the flesh, and drink "
32 posted on 01/09/2010 2:17:53 PM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: CottShop
Yuck- no paragraphs- not sure what happened there: I used to never take communion because I always felt -unworthy' however, a few years ago I learned that the writer was talking about the practice of the folks during that time wjhen they woudl go to church communions simply because they were desirign to fil ltheir gullets and drink till drunk instead of taking time to reflect on their appreciation to God "1Co 11:27 - Wherefore - ( hōste). So that, or it follows from what has been said. If this be the origin and intention of the Lord’s Supper, then it follows that whoever partakes of it in an improper manner is guilty of his body and blood. The design of Paul is to correct their improper mode of observing this ordinance; and having showed them the true nature and design of the institution, he now states the consequences of partaking of it in an improper manner. Shall eat this bread - See 1Co_11:26. Paul still calls it bread, and shows thus that he was a stranger to the doctrine that the bread was changed into the very body of the Lord Jesus. If the papal doctrine of transubstantiation had been true, Paul could not have called it bread. The Romanists do not believe that it is bread, nor would they call it such; and this shows how needful it is for them to keep the Scriptures from the people, and how impossible to express their dogmas in the language of the Bible. Let Christians adhere to the simple language of the Bible, and there is no danger of their falling into the errors of the papists. Unworthily - Perhaps there is no expression in the Bible that has given more trouble to weak and feeble Christians than this. It is certain that there is no one that has operated to deter so many from the communion; or that is so often made use of as an excuse for not making a profession of religion. The excuse is, “I am unworthy to partake of this holy ordinance. I shall only expose myself to condemnation. I must therefore wait until I become more worthy, and better prepared to celebrate it.” It is important, therefore, that there should he a correct understanding of this passage. Most persons interpret it as if it were “unworthy,” and not “unworthily,” and seem to suppose that it refers to their personal qualifications, to their “unfitness” to partake of it, rather than to the manner in which it is done. It is to he remembered, therefore. that the word used here is an “adverb,” and not an “adjective,” and has reference to the manner of observing the ordinance, and not to their personal qualifications or fitness. It is true that in ourselves we are all “unworthy” of an approach to the table of the Lord; “unworthy” to be regarded as his followers; “unworthy” of a title to everlasting life: but it does not follow that we may not partake of this ordinance in a worthy, that is, a proper manner, with a deep sense of our sinfulness, our need of a Saviour, and with some just views of the Lord Jesus as our Redeemer. Whatever may be our consciousness of personal unworthiness and unfitness - and that consciousness cannot be too deep - yet we may have such love to Christ, and such a desire to be saved by him, and such a sense of his worthiness, as to make it proper for us to approach and partake of this ordinance. The term “unworthily” (anaxiōs) means properly “in an unworthy or improper” manner “in a manner unsuitable to the purposes for which it was designed or instituted;” and may include the following things, namely: (1) Such an irregular and indecent observance as existed in the church of Corinth, where even gluttony and intemperance prevailed under the professed design of celebrating the Lord’s Supper. (2) an observance of the ordinance where there should be no distinction between it and common meals (Note on 1Co_11:29); where they did not regard it as designed to show forth the death of the Lord Jesus. It is evident that where such views prevailed, there could be no proper qualification for this observance; and it is equally clear that such ignorance can hardly be supposed to prevail now in those lands which are illuminated by Christian truth. (3) when it is done for the sake of mockery, and when the purpose is to deride religion, and to show a marked contempt for the ordinances of the gospel. It is a remarkable fact that many infidels have been so full of malignity and bitterness against the Christian religion as to observe a mock celebration of the Lord’s Supper. There is no profounder depth of depravity than this; there is nothing that can more conclusively or painfully show the hostility of man to the gospel of God. It is a remarkable fact, also, that not a few such persons have died a most miserable death. Under the horrors of an accusing conscience, and the anticipated destiny of final damnation, they have left the world as frightful monuments of the justice of God. It is also a fact that not a few infidels who have been engaged in such unholy celebrations have been converted to that very gospel which they were thus turning into ridicule and scorn. Their consciences have been alarmed; they have shuddered at the remembrance of the crime; they have been overwhelmed with the consciousness of guilt, and have found no peace until they have found it in that blood whose shedding they were thus profanely celebrating. And: 1Co 11:27 - Whosoever shall eat - and drink - unworthily - To put a final end to controversies and perplexities relative to these words and the context, let the reader observe, that to eat and drink the bread and wine in the Lord’s Supper unworthily, is to eat and drink as the Corinthians did, who ate it not in reference to Jesus Christ’s sacrificial death; but rather in such a way as the Israelites did the passover, which they celebrated in remembrance of their deliverance from Egyptian bondage. Likewise, these mongrel Christians at Corinth used it as a kind of historical commemoration of the death of Christ; and did not, in the whole institution, discern the Lord’s body and blood as a sacrificial offering for sin: and besides, in their celebration of it they acted in a way utterly unbecoming the gravity of a sacred ordinance. Those who acknowledge it as a sacrificial offering, and receive it in remembrance of God’s love to them in sending his Son into the world, can neither bring damnation upon themselves by so doing, nor eat nor drink unworthily. See our translation of this verse vindicated at the end of the chapter, (1Co_11:34). Shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. If he use it irreverently, if he deny that Christ suffered unjustly, (for of some such persons the apostle must be understood to speak), then he in effect joins issue with the Jews in their condemnation and crucifixion of the Lord Jesus, and renders himself guilty of the death of our blessed Lord. Some, however, understand the passage thus: is guilty, i.e. eats and drinks unworthily, and brings on himself that punishment mentioned 1Co_11:30. And whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. The bread and cup are called the bread and cup of the Lord; because ate and drank in remembrance of him, being symbols of his body and of his blood, though not they themselves; these may be eaten and drank "unworthily", when they are eaten and drank by unworthy persons, in an unworthy manner, and to unworthy ends and purposes. The Lord's supper may be taken unworthily, when it is partook of by unworthy persons. This sense is confirmed by the Syriac version, which renders it , "and is not fit for it", or is unworthy of it, and so the Ethiopic version; now such are all unregenerate persons, for they have no spiritual life in them, and therefore cannot eat and drink in a spiritual sense; they have no spiritual light, and therefore cannot discern the Lord's body; they have no spiritual taste and relish, no spiritual hungerings and thirstings, nor any spiritual appetite, and can receive no spiritual nourishment, or have any spiritual communion with Christ: and so are all such persons, who, though they may profess to be penitent ones, and believers in Christ, and to have knowledge of him, and love to him; and yet they have not true repentance, neither do they bring forth fruits meet for it, and so as they are improper subjects of baptism, they are unworthy of the Lord's table; nor have they faith in Christ, at least only an historical one, and so cannot by faith eat the flesh, and drink "
33 posted on 01/09/2010 2:21:30 PM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: CottShop

The Bible Teaches That Miracles Would Cease When Their Purpose Was Fulfilled.

With all due respect, neither I Corinthians 13:8-11, nor 12:4-11 says that.

The verses you single out in Chapter 13 say that they (the gifts) will end when "that which is perfect is come". That time has not yet come.

I realize that what you state is taught by many fundamentalists. But what you state is extra-biblical.

Now, having said that, relative to those who "heal" and "perform miracles"...I remain a skeptic. However, I have seen miracles and people healed in what could be termed miraculous ways.

34 posted on 01/09/2010 4:59:43 PM PST by norge (The amiable dunce is back, wearing a skirt and high heels.)
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To: norge

[[The verses you single out in Chapter 13 say that they (the gifts) will end when “that which is perfect is come”. That time has not yet come.]]

The problem is that we are NOT seeing TRUE miracles today- IF we were, healers wopuld be goign around and raisign hte dead, (and not just unconscious, but truly dead), restoring limbs, restoring sight, their shadows would be healing folks of lost functions on and on it goes- so either God’s ‘powers’ have diminished, or the age of TRUE miracles is over today

[[However, I have seen miracles]]

You’ve seen people raised fro mthe dead? Or the seas parted? Or anythign else for that matter that superceedes nature?

[[and people healed in what could be termed miraculous ways.]]

Unwarrented- The miracles of the bible were such that when witnessed, there was no possibility of a natural explanation- healings today, do infact have hte possibility of natural explanations- As mentioend before- them iracles were such that it left no doubt in anyone’s mind that they were miraculous supernatural events by God Himself- that infact was the express intent of any mioracle that God performed- so that noone could honestly quesiton it’s supernatural nature- I think you’ll agree that today’s ‘healings’ are infact quite quesitonable, and coudl ifnact have natural explanations, even if we aren’t sure how- the possibility that it is natural leaves doubt- God’s miracles, and htem iracles of the apostles never left doubt

The problem with healings is that they can infact be explained naturally, and do NOT fit the criteria for TRUE miracles- there are several criteria for TRUE miracles which when witnessed, can not be denied- which was the whole purpose of TRUE miracles to begin with- not havign an explanation doesn’t mean that somethign is supernatural- or that nature was suspended for the act to take place like as happens for TRUE miracles- not havign an explanation doesn’t mean that a natural explanation isn’t available- I listed several TRUE miracles, ALL of which superceeded nature- healing is not on that list, restoring lost body parts or lost functions is-

That which isperfect has infact come, has established itself, and that which was in part, or fragmented and isolated, has passed away- the church has become full, perfected- Soem teach that ‘that which is perfect’ refersto Heaven, however, there are many verses that back up the context that that which was perfect was referrign to the maturity of hte church- the fact that the TRUE miracles of hte apostles and Christ no logner takep lace today shows that that whgich was perfect is talking about the maturity of the church, and that no toungues and miracles etc are now needed. Either TRUE miracles kept on happening, or they somehow SEVERELY lost their potency ‘over time’ as again, I see no evidence that anyone is rasing anyoen fro mthe dead, nor restoring verifiably lost eyesight, or speakign a word and having lost limbs instantly appear etc etc, nor am I seeing anyone walk on water or part hte red sea, or take 5 fish and supernaturally multiply them 1000’s of times, norspeakign a word and turnign water into wine supernaturally.

Havign said all that- God is indeed gracious, and indeed does work WITH natural means for healings of illnesses today- just because science doesn’t know the exact natural mechanisms by which someone was healed doesn’t mean it’s not possible naturally for the person to recieve health, and hte fact that there in infact quesitons about the ‘supernatural-ness’ of healings shows that these are not the TRUE supernatural events that God once performed and which left NO doubt that they superceeded nature- I see no evidence that leaves no question happenign today- I do however see healings which could be explained naturally. The whole reason for miracles i nthe bible times was for the lost and hte rebellious Jews to KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God was over and above nature


35 posted on 01/09/2010 6:01:54 PM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: CottShop

I will only point out that Paul mentions several gifts such as teaching, helping, and gifts of government, in that same group. How would we know which are no longer needed?

I suggest trying to read your Bible without depending on the words of men...no matter how wonderful, intelligent or spiritual they seem to be. The Bible is pretty clear...if you get the right translation.


36 posted on 01/09/2010 6:14:41 PM PST by norge (The amiable dunce is back, wearing a skirt and high heels.)
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To: RGirard

I’m sure the same God who created everyone can also handle the repairs. :)


37 posted on 01/09/2010 6:21:21 PM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: norge

There are the gifts of the spirit which each believer possesses, and miracle gifts, or sign gifts, which were temporary which the Apostles were given to give witness to the power and truth of God during the time it was needed

[[I suggest trying to read your Bible without depending on the words of men]]

Are yuo suggesting I not rely o nthe gifts God gave these folks to correctly interpret His word in context? God gifts soem men and women with the ability and authority to correctly interpret His word, authority in spiritual matters, that most of us are not gifted with- It is the gift whereby the Spirit appoints certain Christians to lead, inspire, and develop the churches of God by the proclamation and the teaching of true doctrine. He gifts these folks for our benifits, and we shoudl NOT fear hearing and learnign from them.

Again I ask, where are the healers rasing peopel fro m the dead? Is God’s power to do so less today than in yesteryear when the apostles were specifically assigned the ‘sign gifts’? Do healers of today just not ‘have as much faith’ as the apostles did back then? Were the apostles soemhow superhuman i ntheir faith in contrast to us today? Or has ‘the power’ simply fallen off in power over the years?


38 posted on 01/09/2010 8:41:36 PM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: norge

Here’s a pretty good link:

“This observation brings us to a brief analysis of what are considered sign gifts by those within the Charismatic movement. A comparison of the so-called miracles within Charismatic churches and what occurred in the Bible will prove that modern Charismatic “miracles” have nothing in common with the miracles in Scripture. There are three areas that need to be considered: (1) What is the purpose of the Charismatic “miracles”? (2) Are Charismatic miracles conducted in the same circumstances as the miracles in the New Testament? (3) Are Charismatic faith healers performing the same type of miracles found in the New Testament? (4) Are Charismatic faith healers performing the same type of miracles found in the New Testament?”

http://www.reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/Spiritual%20Gifts,%20part%207.htm


39 posted on 01/09/2010 8:46:36 PM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: CottShop

Are yuo suggesting I not rely o nthe gifts God gave these folks to correctly interpret His word in context?

That's just the point. How do you determine who is the one who correctly interprets His word? Is it Benny Hinn? And if not why not? Is it your pastor? And if so, why?

Nothing that you wrote in your previous statement is supported by Scripture. Nowhere does Scripture say that God halted all gifts of miracles, prophesy or healing.

God gifts soem men and women with the ability and authority to correctly interpret His word, authority in spiritual matters, that most of us are not gifted with- It is the gift whereby the Spirit appoints certain Christians to lead, inspire, and develop the churches of God

But don't you see the fallacy of what you have been saying. These gifts are included with those of prophesy, miracles and healings. If those three are no longer effective, neither is the ability to interpret His Word, nor authority. Either all go, or all stay. And furthermore, how do you know the person you are listening to has been granted that "authority"?

You need to be able to read God's Word for what It says, not what someone says it says. The best thing you can do is get a reasonable translation...and I said "translation"...read it without the bias of what you have been taught...and you have been biased by men's thoughts.

40 posted on 01/09/2010 10:45:28 PM PST by norge (The amiable dunce is back, wearing a skirt and high heels.)
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To: norge

[[Nothing that you wrote in your previous statement is supported by Scripture. Nowhere does Scripture say that God halted all gifts of miracles, prophesy or healing.]]

Again, where are the miracles of today?- the true miracles? I keep asking and you keep avoiding the question. Everythign that was said was infact supported by Scriptures- and the scriptures coincide with life’s experiences- and observances- where are the miracles? there haven’t been ANY TRUE miracles for a long long time now- why is that? Is God’s power slowly diminishing away? Are men of faith losing faith and not able to perform the ‘really big miracles’ anymore?

[[But don’t you see the fallacy of what you have been saying. These gifts are included with those of prophesy, miracles and healings. If those three are no longer effective, neither is the ability to interpret His Word, nor authority.]]

Once again- there are 2 types of gifts- the gifts of the Holy Spirit for ALL Christians, and the miracle gifts that were for a VERY specific purpose when they were performed, as I’ve explained over and over again

[[Either all go, or all stay.]]

Really? According to whom I might ask? All or nothing? Again- show me the ‘really big miracles’ then- present hte evidence- The FACT is that the ‘really big miracles’ that superceede nature are NOT occuring today nor have they for a long time now- observance tells us that- so it seems the ‘all or nothing’ claim doesn’t hold up here- IF you can provide evidence that the ‘really big miracles’ that superceede nature are occurign today, then you have yourcase for miracles occuring even after hte days of the apostles- but these ‘really big nature superceeding miracles are NOT occuring today- and were they occuring, the papers and news would be filled with such spectacular works of God so that there woudl be no doubt, no confusion, no possible natural explanations- but again, that’s not what we see-

[[And furthermore, how do you know the person you are listening to has been granted that “authority”? ]]

God gives TRUE Chrisstians the ability to recognize their own, and the ability to know false teachings, and to spot charlatans- He even outlines how to do so in His word- and those that are of God display the fruit that is visible to all TRUE Christians- it’s really not that hard- Again the Holy Spirit also guides so that God’s children will know Him when they see Him through others

[[You need to be able to read God’s Word for what It says, not what someone says it says.]]

I am sorry- but htis is wrong- there are folks who are called by God to thoroughly study God’s word, to put many 1000’s of hours- dedicated to correctly dividing and understanding God’s word, and when the TRUTH is in them, the TRUTH is obvious to htose who know God- and I frankly have no problem listenign to those who have dedicated their lives to better udnerstandign God’s word, and have no problems supportign htose who have taken on the arduous task of doing so to better further my own understanding in steps that I can handle both spiritually and itnellectually- We’re not all gifted the same ways ,however, we all do have common gifts that help us to know TRUTH when we hear it- this is a gift from God to us to know Him- left to our own devices as before salvation, there is NOTHING in us that causes us to want to even get to know God on our own- Yet after salvation, we have that precious Gift from God that spurs us to know Him intimately, and learned men and women of God’s word know Him much deeper than we can on our own because they know more of the little nuggets of truth that to the lay folks liek us are not apaprent unless deep study takes place- when these nuggets are revealed, they perfectly coincide with ALL of God’s word, and help to further out knowledge beyond what we’re capable of at hte present.

Having said that- if you wish to go it alone, not trusting anyone- then whatever- but there is much growth to be had listenign to those who have heeded the call of God to study His word DEEPLY and to understand what is at fiorst glances, not immediately obvious to casual readers like ourselves

If you still dissagree- then we’ll have to part ways here simply agreeign to dissagree


41 posted on 01/09/2010 11:55:19 PM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

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