Posted on 01/14/2010 10:18:32 AM PST by svcw
Having failed to realise I was in a religious mormon-bashing thread, I thought I was in a thread asking why the islamic group teamed up with the lds group.
I mentioned that maybe the IR-USA didn’t have an organization ready to go to Haiti, while the LDS folks do.
You said the Salvation Army was already in Haiti. Well, since the LDS has people to go to Haiti, they wouldn’t need to hook up with a group already there. It’s the IR-USA that needed a partner. So of course, I assumed you were suggesting the IR-USA should have hooked up with the SA.
But now I see that wasn’t your point at all. You were trying to suggest the LDS should partner with the Salvation Army.
Which makes no sense. The LDS has an organization, but can always use money. the IR-USA had money. the salvation army has an organization already. There is no point in two groups with organizations hooking up, the point is to get the group with money to help the groups with organizations.
Now that I know your true purpose, I apologize for thinking this was going to be a rational conversation about what makes the most sense when providing relief efforts.
As to the rest, you are correct, and I apologize to “FR” for the shorthand; I should have spelled out my complaint that “I didn’t understand why, on FR, there were Freepers who were”. I have no doubt that most of those on FR would find this discussion tedious at best.
But, again, I also apologize to everybody on this thread, as I misunderstood the purpose and point of the thread. I wasted your time explaining why it made sense for relief organizations to pair with fundraising organizations, when the point of the thread was to bash the Mormon church for helping Haitians.
I think I clearly stated that, if I were LDS, I might well question the alliance.
But you are right, as an outside observer who does not associate with either organization, I see no problem with two private organizations I have nothing to do with getting together to provide help to Haiti.
Apparently you want to dictate to groups you don’t belong to exactly who they should associate with.
I’m speaking of this particular association, and not other alleged associations in this thread.
BTW:
Wouldn’t you be upset if the Salvation Army partnered with the LDS?
Last I checked, the Salvation Army carried no guns, produced no terrorism and was not a financing front for groups like Hamas...
There is a difference between strange bed fellows and stupidity.
Say what? Are you serious? Of course, under the broadest of definitions, ANY non-profit "can always use money" -- wow! what a passive way of still-saying- something-technically-correct-but-for-your-argument-to-work-you-REALLY-mean-NEED-the-$-elsewise-your-argument-falls-flat-'cause-you-don't-want-to-REALLY-come-out-and-say-something-stupid-like-the-LDS Church-NEEDS-$.
(Try again)
You are the biggest non-Mormon defender of Mormonism I have ever met. May I ask why you don’t just go ahead and join?
Oh, snap!
The mormons chose to "partner" with a muslim organization rather than join with any one of the various Christian organizations providing aid to Haiti.
Make of it what you will.
Reading minds on the Religion Forum is against the rules. You have done it twice now. "Now that I know your true purpose".
If you would be so kind as to post a link to any comment I’ve made in any thread at any time that defended the religion of Mormonism, I would appreciate it, so I could go and correct the error.
I have defended people of the mormon faith from unfair or rediculous attacks on their conservatism, I have argued against writing off an entire religious group from participation, I’ve criticized those who politically attacked conservatives for being Mormon.
These are political arguments, not religious. As a religion, I don’t think LDS is the worst religion around, or even in the bottom 50% of religions from a human perspective, realising that this is not a “belief” rating but rather a rating of how I feel I could deal with people of various faiths.
I certainly wouldn’t want anybody to join the LDS church. So I can’t think of any reason why I would ever do so.
I wouldn’t want anybody joining a Jewish synagogue either, but I would defend conservative jews against attacks based on their religion.
For all I know, I might be the ONLY non-mormon defender of our fellow conservatives of that religious persuasion — I don’t care. I am a champion of lost causes. Heck, I’ve even been known to defend conservative muslims in the political arena (although I haven’t had much occasion to do so recently, and I mostly just ignore those types of threads now).
I’m not one to unnecessarily ostracize people who might ally with me on the conservative issues that matter. I don’t see us having enough friends that we can write off people of the religion that saved us from gay marriage in California, or who do as much as anybody to defend the unborn, and to sell families as a way of life.
I don’t have to believe in their faith to appreciate their political commonalities.
"IDF medical teams are preparing to spend two weeks in Haiti and to see an average of 500 patients a day, Chief IDF Medical Corps Officer Brig.-Gen. Nahman Ash said Thursday, a day after a devastating earthquake ripped through the country on Wednesday.
The delegation will consist of 121 members, including 40 doctors and five search-and-rescue teams. The delegation will lift off on two planes at 8 p.m. from Ben-Gurion International Airport.
Another religious group doing their part.
Yea.
I’ll try to make the argument more clear.
Suppose I have a thousand people ready to go on a relief mission, and I have the means to deliver those thousand people.
Suppose you have a thousand people ready to go, and the means to deliver those people.
There would be no value in us trying to organize together, adding a layer of complexity — we are both perfectly capable of doing the relief work.
Now, suppose a 3rd group has money. Both your group and my group would benefit from hooking up with the group with money, because we could use the money to pay for our relief, to buy extra supplies, to pay for transportation.
So, by “organization” I mean the ability to put boots on the ground, and an organized structure that can efficiently do so.
IR-USA has suppplies to be delivered, and the LDS has the means to deliver them. SArmy has the means to deliver things, they don’t need to hook up with LDS, it would be redundant.
Without an organization to hook up with, IR-USA supplies would sit in warehouses, not get to people who can use them.
By “use” I didn’t mean in the sense that “I could sure use some money”, but in the sense that “they can put the money (and the supplies purchased by that money) to good use quickly and efficiently.
I hope this explains the point.
BTW, I imagine that the LDS relief work requires money, and that they don’t have an infinite supply of it. After all, they aren’t the federal government, they can’t just print it up. :-)
You defended the polygamists during the FLDS raids, and you are here defending the LDS for their teaming with radical Islamists, among other threads where Mormonism is the topic.
From the article I linked to earlier by Debbie Schlussel we read this:
An Islamic Relief fundraising dinner I attended in summer 2004 in Dearborn, Michigan, was chilling. It was just after Americans Nicholas Berg and Paul Johnson were beheaded by Muslims.
The evening’s “entertainment” consisted of young boys–some apparently as young as seven–simulating beheadings and shootings of other young boys who donned the American, Israeli, and British flags. Then they put red scarves over their heads to symbolize blood . . . and no head. Afterward, they took off the flags and stomped on them. Almost every Islamic leader in town was there, clapping in ecstasy. So was U.S. Congressman John Conyers, who will run the House Judiciary Committee if Democrats regain control of Congress.
The master of ceremonies was Rayed Tayeh, formerly employed by Islamic Association for Palestine, which several former top FBI officials say is a HAMAS front group. In 2002, Tayeh served as spokesman of a Muslim group boycotting Starbucks because its Chairman is Jewish. A letter Tayeh wrote in a Capitol Hill newspaper was deemed so anti-Semitic that even Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney fired him from her staff.
An Islamic Relief fundraiser I attended, Friday, was tamer. Misbah Shahid, the organization’s Detroit representative, announced that IRW publishes and distributes school textbooks to children in Palestinian refugee camps. But textbooks distributed in the camps are riddled with anti-Semitic, anti-Christian, and anti-American rhetoric, according to Molly Resnick of Mothers Against Teaching Children to Kill and Hate.
Shahid also told the audience that his organization is one of the key Non-Governmental Organizations currently distributing aid to Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon, including U.N. and U.S. aid. But those camps are known as breeding grounds for terrorists.
Given all this, why are Mormons pouring millions into Islamic Relief?
And yet, you are still vehemently defending Mormonism in their long standing relationship to IR-USA. I really see no need to provide any link since it is so obvious on this thread alone.
your “true purpose” was to argue that the LDS church was partnering with muslims rather than with christian organizations.
I thought you made that clear, and I hope it is OK in the religion forum to acknowledge that I think I understood what you were saying.
As to your quip about my “organization/money” quote, please see the post I just made above this for a complete explanation of the meaning of the words ‘organization’ and ‘use’. I don’t think it’s as funny as you seem to think by your “LOL” statement (I wouldn’t want to accuse you of actually thinking something was funny, in a religion forum).
Except that you have it backwards. The Mormons have the supplies and the IR-USA has the money.
Again I will ask, why does the Mormon Church not have the money to deliver their own supplies since they are by their own admission one of the wealthiest churches in the Western Hemisphere? My heck, they are building a 4 billion dollar mall in Salt Lake City. That’s $4,000,000,000.00.
Maybe they stretched themselves too thin to provide transport for their warehoused medical supplies? When it comes to saving lives, it seems their priority is in shopping malls.
First of all, a caveat on my position on this whole Haiti help thing: If a Christian humanitarian organization (like Franklin Graham), can work together with another Christian humanitarian organization (like Salvation Army), then that's where the melding should start. In a crisis of this magnitude, believe me, Christian orgs won't have ANY trouble at all, finding other Christian orgs to work with.
Now if the Mormon org wants to likewise work together with the old RLDS sect, same thing. Now, occasionally you'll have a crisis where it's not possible to find a co-partner. ONLY THEN should such a coalition effort be underway. Frankly, the Haiti earthquake doesn't qualify as such a crisis, and reveals more about the Lds church's lack of discernment.
Here's what I REALLY wanted to address, though, Charles: Your words above reminded me of some comments Reno232 made in early September...& prompted me to recall what I said to him...and what I've bold-faced below also applies to you...and, BTW, I told Reno a day after the post below that Here's an example [article about a food bank where Mormons & Christians were working together] of where Christians & Lds can work together -- similar to how they worked together re: to get Prop 8 passed in CA. (Likewise, Christian & Mormon leaders often work together in Boy Scout programs on behalf of youth)...
My Sept. 8 exchange with Reno232:
What does that have to do w/ advancing conservatism & saving this country? Are we arm in arm in this cause, or are you going to step on my neck because I don’t believe religiously as you do? [Reno 232]
My response<>/u>: I already said that Christians & Mormons -- to some degree -- already agree on issues & values & work together. What you've failed to realize is that Joseph Smith's first vision already attempted to squeeze our neck veins into breathing silence. He dug a gigantic graveyard for the Christian church, declared our...
...joinability null & void,
...ALL our creeds as an "abomination" to his god,
...and the heritage of our professing believers as 100% corrupt
The real questions here are "Do you & all FR Mormons agree with these three Smithian assessments of Christians & the Christian church?" [If I was a gambling person, I'd say, "I won't get a response on that question"]
Bottom line: Are you telling us that a few dozen FREEPER critiques keeps us from working together opposing same-sex marriage or abortion or socialistic health care --something apparently you can't tolerate -- but then we're just supposed to 100% ignore Joseph Smith's omnipresent scathing critique of us? (Especially if you're in league with Smith on those views)
What are you trying to accomplish in the name of conservatism w/ the bashing? Are you really advancing the cause? [Reno232]
My response: No, your real questions are:
What did Smith "accomplish" in "advancing" Christian values in this country by labeling 100% of our creeds as an "abomination" -- a word that means "putrid?" What did Smith, by doing that, accomplish in the name of conservatism?
Back to live action: So Charles, my Q to you are:
(1) Since I don't speak for other FR posters on this thread, why do you assume that the worldwide Mormon slander of Christians in their...
...Pearl of Great Price
...& Web sites
...& magazines (example: 1984 Ensign mag article by Kent Jackson)
... & curricula
...& sermons
...& temple rituals (example: Christians pastors were depicted as tools of the devil until 1989)
... (not to mention their accusation that we've all apostatized from our Catholic, Protestant & Orthodox faiths since the 2nd or 3rd century)...
...hasn't "driven off" Christians LONG BEFORE one word was even muttered on FR about Mormons???? [Now certainly that's not me -- but I don't portend to speak for others]
(2) And for those of us as Christians for whom these Lds pronouncements have NOT 100% "driven us off," are you -- as I bold-faced above -- telling us that from the Mormon perspective FREEPER critiques keep us from working together?
Whether it be opposing same-sex marriage or abortion or socialistic health care or whatever -- all because supposedly...
...Christians are NOT entitled to take into consideration what Mormon leaders & Mormon "scripture" says about us...
...but somehow Mormons ARE entitled to let some FR threads influence whether they work with us or not?
How is that not an inconsistent assumption being made?
I mean, are you telling us, Charles, that Christians are simply just supposed to 100% ignore Joseph Smith's omnipresent scathing critique of us?
Note: When Smith's first vision referenced ALL Christians, Christian churches, and Christian sects as:
...corrupt,
...powerless,
...abominable apostate heart-drifter...
...who teaches only human precepts...
...and is ALL wrong...
...all while conveying that this is God's exact assessment of me & every other Christian, Christian church, Orthodox church, Catholic church, etc!!!
Charles, I can ignore the above, and still work together with a fellow Boy Scout leader...so why can't a fellow Boy Scout leader ignore what a FR says about a Mormon and work alongside of us for the betterment of youth?
It seems all you're doing is siding with the inconsistent, double-standards of some Lds!
Microsoft is making an initial commitment of $1.25 million, which includes cash and in-kind contributions.
We invite you to consider supporting any of the following relief organizations:
* American Red Cross
* NetHope
* Save the Children
* World Vision International
* Care
* MercyCorps
* Unicef
Lookie there. All that aid going to Haiti, and none of those people had to go to IR-USA to facilitate it. Hmmm, I wonder why. Sheesh!
No doubt they are a bunch of no good terrorists....
LOL!
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