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Can a Person Be Saved Without Jesus?
House of Yeshua ^ | September 2009 | Jon Thompson

Posted on 01/16/2010 8:23:23 AM PST by Colofornian

This week's Bible study dealt with a question some Christian folks asked before the start of our meeting: “Can someone who has the Torah and lives obediently to it be saved if they don't accept Jesus as Savior?”

We approached this in three steps:

•What is meant by Torah observant?

•What is the difference between “Jesus” and “Yeshua”?

•What is meant by being saved as related to Messiah?

First, we discussed that being Torah observant means to obey the written word of Elohim, not the traditions of men that have come in and taken a place alongside His Word. To be Torah observant means to obey the commandments, judgments, statutes and instructions of Elohim as He gave them to Moshe (Moses) and subsequently recorded in the Torah.

Next we discussed if Yeshua taught that the Torah should be observed or obeyed? In Matthew 5:17 Yeshua said during His Sermon on the Mount:

“Do not think that I am come to destroy the law [Torah], or the prophets [Nevi'im]; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.”

When someone teaches that “Jesus” did away with—destroyed—the Torah, they are saying in effect that He lied; when He actually said that He did not come to do away with the Torah. He said He came to fill up the Torah and Prophets with meaning and to interpret them correctly. The terms fulfill and destroy are rabbinical terms that mean to explain correctly or incorrectly respectively.

We see Yeshua filling up the meaning of the Written Word when He says in Matthew 5:21,22:

“You have heard that it was said to the men of old, You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment. But I say to you...”

Since Elohim said that His people are to keep His commandments forever (Exodus 31:16, Leviticus 16:31, 23:21), to say that Jesus did away with the Torah—and the commandments in it—places Him in the category that Moshe taught in Deuteronomy 13:1,2:

“If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them.’”

Moshe cautioned not to believe that prophet:

“You shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for YHVH your Elohim is testing you to know whether you love YHVH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after YHVH your Elohim and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.”(Deuteronomy 13:3,4)

So when a person comes to a Torah follower and quotes “Jesus” as saying:

“...that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised...” (Luke 7:22b)

and at the same time says that “Jesus” did away with the Old Testament commandments—this is a red flag to the Torah observant believer. “Jesus”, according to Moshe, must then be a false prophet if He does signs and wonders and teaches not to keep the commandments in the Torah.

Second, is there a difference between “Jesus” and “Yeshua”? Do the two names identify the same person? “Jesus” (Ιησους) is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew name “Yeshua” (ישוע). In this sense, it is the name in a non-native language for the same Person. But when it is contrasted that Yeshua of the New Testament kept the Torah, instructed His followers to keep the Torah, taught the Torah, and did all the signs and wonders—that's different.

The problem arises when the names “Jesus” and “Yeshua” are used interchangeably. On one hand, the modern church refers to their “Jesus” as a Prophet who annulled the Torah and taught their people not to follow the commandments in the Torah—thus this would make the “Jesus” that is usually taught by many Christian missionaries and teachers a false prophet according to the teachings of Moshe. The Torah explicitly warns the followers of YHVH not to listen to this kind of false prophet.

The third question is about the Messiah. Again, the name of “Jesus” is tied to the “Christian Christ.” Many Torah followers make a distinction between the “Christian Christ” and the “Jewish Messiah.” The “Jewish Messiah” is a central figure in biblical thought. Many of the figures in the TaNaKh (Old Testament) looked forward to and had faith in the coming Messiah. The binding of Isaac is a prime shadow of the Messiah. Abraham looked forward to the Messiah:

“God will provide himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” [See all of Genesis 22:8–14]

“By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son...that Elohim was able to raise him from the dead...” (Hebrews 11:17 [OT Genesis 22:12])

“And the Scripture, foreseeing that Elohim would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, In you all the nations shall be blessed.” (Galatians 3:8 [OT Genesis 12:3])

“And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed Elohim, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. And he was called the friend of Elohim.” (James 2:23 [OT Genesis 15:6])

As did Jacob:

“So Jacob called the name of the place Peni'el, saying, "For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved.” (Genesis 32:30)

“The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to Him shall be the obedience of the people.” (Genesis 49:10)

Job:

“For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;” (Job 19:25)

David:

“Your throne, O Elohim, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore Elohim, Your Elohim, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” (Psalm 45:6,7)

Ezekiel:

“David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.” (Ezekiel 37:24)

Daniel:

“Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.” (Daniel 9:25,26)

Jeremiah:

“Their Redeemer is strong; YHVH of hosts is His name. He will thoroughly plead their case, that He may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon.” (Jeremiah 50:34)

Isaiah:

“Our Redeemer; YHVH of Hosts is His name, the Holy One of Israel.” (Isaiah 47:4)

In the modern church the “Christ” often taught under the name of “Jesus” is not the “Jewish Messiah” of the Scriptures. The “Christian Christ”— “Jesus”—changed the unchangeable commandments, statutes and judgments of Elohim. He also violated the Torah, according to many teachers. If “Jesus” violated the Torah, then He sinned. If He sinned, He was not sinless. If He wasn't sinless, He was not a Perfect Sacrifice for our sins.

The real Messiah of the Scriptures—the “Jewish Messiah”—did not sin. He kept the Torah to the letter, He taught the Torah, and He was born, grew up, lived, died, and was raised again—a Torah-observant Jew.

So can a person be saved without “Jesus” or the “Christian Christ?” The answer we came up with in our study is—“yes”—if the question relates to the “Jesus” or the “Christian Christ” usually preached in the modern church.

But, can a person be saved without the “Jewish Messiah“—the Torah-observant Jew in the Scriptures Who is the Savior, the Redeemer, and the Perfect Sacrifice for sin? No!

With this knowledge, according to the prophet Ezekiel, he points out in Ezekiel 18 that each person needs to set his life on-course based on what the Torah says. Excerpts from verses of this chapter state:

“But if a man be just, and does what is lawful and right...If he has walked in My statutes and kept My judgments faithfully—he is just; he shall surely live!...the soul who sins shall die...” Ezekiel 18:5,9,20.

Ezekiel continues in verse 20 that if the wicked person who repents—turns from his sin to righteousness—will live. But in verse 24 if the righteous person who turns from righteousness to wickedness—will die. The Hebrew word for righteous is tzadik (צדיק) meaning “straight,” as in the narrow way. And the word for wicked is rasha (רשע) meaning “off the path,” as in wide is the way that leads to destruction.

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:13,14)

In both Ezekiel and Matthew the life spoken of is more than physical existence. They are discussing Eternal Life, salvation. The gate by which we gain entrance to the path of salvation is the atonement of our Sacrifice Yeshua. The path of salvation is obedience to the commandments, judgments and statutes of Elohim.

It is up to each of us to choose our path in life, the way of the world or the way of Elohim. If you choose to follow the Elohim of the Bible—which “Messiah” will you follow—the fabled Torah-denying Christ of the modern church who, according to Moshe and the Torah, was a false prophet and leads to eternal death and separation from YHVH our Elohim. Or, the Torah-observant Yeshua ha Mashiach (Jesus the Messiah)—the true “Jewish Messiah” prophesied in the Old Testament and Whose earthly life is recorded in the New Testament—and Who provides eternal life as the Perfect Sacrifice for our sins—the only path for salvation.

“Yeshua said to him, ‘I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.’“ (John 14:6)


TOPICS: Judaism; Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: jesus; salvation; torah; yeshua
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To: fish hawk
Beautifully summarized!
51 posted on 01/16/2010 12:06:30 PM PST by verity (Obama Lies)
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To: Hootch

Romans2:12-17 pretty much covers it!


52 posted on 01/16/2010 12:14:54 PM PST by tajgirvan (May God Save America! May God Bless & Protect our Troops. The Finest and the Best!)
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To: count-your-change
Why should the name Yeshua be preferred over Jesus since a contrast was drawn between the the two as though two different individual are being spoken of?

Because in some cases, it does represent two different people. For instance, those who think that because he has a Christian name and is no longer Jewish. Would you say that the Arabic word "Allah" is the same as the Almighty of the Bible?

Having said that, you assert that "Yeshua" is not correct. You did not offer the "correct" name. So, what is it, do you think?

If you feel Yeshua is a more correct form for person name of the Messiah, it's up to you to explain why.

No, it was you who said that "Yeshua" was incorrect. The burden of proof is upon you, not I. I simple asked why you said that.

Clearly the exact pronunciation of names from the Scriptures is not known.

Why do you say that? Do you read Hebrew?
53 posted on 01/16/2010 1:28:36 PM PST by Tzfat
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To: Hootch

This merciful God you believe in has promised to throw Satan into a lake of fire for all eternity. Do you think he will not do this because he is benevolent? I don’t believe God will break his words to his creation nor to himself.


54 posted on 01/16/2010 2:12:10 PM PST by fish hawk (It's sad that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom. Isaac Asimov)
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To: Colofornian
Going to hell is no big deal. That's where all of the interesting people are anyways.

I'd rather hang out with Thomas Jefferson and Jimmy Hendrix than losers like Martin Luther and John Calvin.

I'd imagine that if the Christian vision of heaven is true, everyone in heaven probably has an excrement-eating Joel Osteen type grin on their face, where you praise the dear Leader 24-7. It would be like going to a really lame party.

55 posted on 01/16/2010 5:22:12 PM PST by GunRunner
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To: UriĀ’el-2012

Well, I said Jewish, not messianic...unless of course you mean moshiach, as annointed in the sense of David, Solomon et al, past and to come, though with no sense of divinity.


56 posted on 01/16/2010 5:52:47 PM PST by onedoug
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To: GunRunner

There is nothing to joke about. It is forever.


57 posted on 01/16/2010 6:07:25 PM PST by esquirette (If we do not know our own worldview, we will accept theirs.)
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To: esquirette

How do you know? Have you been there?


58 posted on 01/16/2010 6:17:30 PM PST by GunRunner
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To: Tzfat
Having said that, you assert that "Yeshua" is not correct. You did not offer the "correct" name. So, what is it, do you think?

"Ιησους"

It's what we have in the source documents.

59 posted on 01/16/2010 9:07:02 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. " Gal 3:29)
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To: JustaDumbBlonde
Where the Jews go is not according to me. I am a mere mortal that only knows what I’ve been taught in church, and my pastor preaches the Word directly from the Bible.

And what does your pastor preach to you from the Bible (the first 3/4 of which, of course, is the sacred book of the Jews and existed for hundreds of years before Jesus was born)?

Or is your pastor silent on this topic?

Just curious.

60 posted on 01/16/2010 9:23:55 PM PST by Jack Black
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To: Cvengr
There are plenty of Hebrews who were not saved. There were even priests who were not believers. There will remain, though, a remnant of Jews who are believers through faith in Christ, even after the Holy Spirit is removed from the Church Age.OK, but are there any, who do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, who will be saved. Not "left behind" to form the remnant, but, for instance already dead and in heaven due to following God's instructions for the Jews?
61 posted on 01/16/2010 9:26:03 PM PST by Jack Black
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To: tajgirvan

Romans2:12-16 (pretty straight forward)...

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,

15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

16This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.


62 posted on 01/16/2010 10:36:28 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: humblegunner

ah yes, no man cometh to the father except through Jesus.

But at the last judgement, when non Christians ask: And when did we give you drink or food, Christ will say if you did it for the least of my brethren you do it for me.

Jesus can save those who don’t know him if they are trying to serve the Father as best they know how.


63 posted on 01/16/2010 10:49:20 PM PST by LadyDoc (liberals only love politically correct poor people)
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To: plsjr; Eagle Eye; Diego1618; Tzfat; Jeremiah Jr; Yehuda
God is by nature TRUTH.

Yes.

Jesus stated he was the "I AM", meaning He was God:

No. God is One. He kept emphasizing this but who listens. The Jews haven't fallen for the man-god trinity. And true prophets were abused/run off/slain for failing to deliver happy-happy-joy-joy messages. Nothing new under the sun.

The false prophets of christianity operate the same as the MSM - what is the truth and what is claimed by the "reporters" are two different things.

Torah is truth and is the foundation of the universe which was *spoken* into existence by God. Action. Reaction. Reflexive action. Passive = "fallen". Etc. The seven binyanim of wisdom, as it were.

64 posted on 01/16/2010 11:21:32 PM PST by Ezekiel (The Obama-nation began with the Inauguration of Desolation.)
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To: LadyDoc

Jesus can save those who don’t know him if they are trying to serve the Father as best they know how.”

I don’t see how anyone can truly be “trying to serve the Father as best they know how” and not know Jesus.

I think I’ll believe God and not men.

Romans 1

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

amplified:

18For God’s [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative.

19For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them.

20For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],(B)


65 posted on 01/16/2010 11:34:51 PM PST by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: Ezekiel

You dismiss the Gospels; I consider them documentation of the fulfillment of the Torah and the story of salvation for both Jews and Gentiles.

We will each find out who is right when we die.
My prayer is that neither of us find we were wrong when/if we meet our Maker.


66 posted on 01/17/2010 4:06:27 AM PST by plsjr (<>< ... http://NewSpring.cc/webservice - check it out!)
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To: Lee N. Field
"Ιησους"

So, you are saying that His name is "Ιησους" - how does that become "Jesus"? What language did the people of Galilee speak in the First Century?
67 posted on 01/17/2010 5:32:52 AM PST by Tzfat
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To: count-your-change

How to live in order to enable the Creator in His loving kindness to provide His foregivness is outlined in Tan’’kh ( the Jewish Bible) ; and was also taught by the first century Ribi Yehoshua from Nazareth (the Mashiakh; the Messiah) (His teachings are found here: www.netzarim.co.il )

Tan’’kh – for example Yekhëzqeil (Hezekiel) 18 – promises foregiveness to those and only those who do their sincerest to keep the mitzwot (directive or military-style orders ) in Torah. The Creator cannot lie and He does not change (Malakhi 3:6)!

Ribi Yehoshua ha-Mashiakh lived and kept Torah with the sincerest of his heart, died innocently and became a sacrifice. Because of that the Creator can give His foregiveness for the short comings (in keeping Torah) to everyone doing his/her sincerest to keep His instructions found in Torah, and to everyone turning away from their Torah-breaches to instead starting to do their sincerest to keep the instructions in Torah.

Living in the above described way until one dies implies that the Creator will continue to give His forgiveness during one’s whole life, which will keep ones nephesh (psyche) in a connection with the Creator, which will lead to ha-olam haba (which Christians would call “heaven”). While not living in the above described way, according to Yekhezeqeil, won’t lead to ha-olam haba.

Thus the Christian doctrine found in Joh 14:6 contradicts Torah.

Anders Branderud


68 posted on 01/17/2010 7:12:55 AM PST by andersbranderud
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To: Tzfat
No, I don't speak Hebrew but I wonder if you know exactly what and how the vowel pointing was pronounced?

Whether Yeshua, Yeshuwa,Yhowshua, or Yeshoshua. all are variants of the same name and how they were sounded out is not known for certain, so the use of the familiar English pronunciation “Jesus” makes sense.

“Would you say that the Arabic word “Allah” is the same as the Almighty of the Bible?”

No.

69 posted on 01/17/2010 11:02:52 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Tzfat
"Ιησους"

So, you are saying that His name is "Ιησους" - how does that become "Jesus"?

No, I'm saying that's what we have.

The Holy Spirit saw fit to produce the New Testament documents in Koine Greek, through the hands of the various writers. It becomes "Gee-zus" through a quirk of the English language. Most places, it's something close to "Yay-soo".

Unless one is a native Hebrew speaker, obsessing about using "Yeshua" is a bit odd.

What language did the people of Galilee speak in the First Century?

Aramaic and Greek.

70 posted on 01/17/2010 11:10:56 AM PST by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. " Gal 3:29)
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To: Lee N. Field
Unless one is a native Hebrew speaker, obsessing about using "Yeshua" is a bit odd.

Odd to you maybe. So tell me, why does the name "Yehoshua" get tranliterated into "Joshua" and the name "Yeshua" get translitereded into "Jeshua" - and yet the same transliteration rules do not apply to "Yeshua"? Could it be that it is OK for "Old Testament" names to sound Semitic, but "New Testament" names aren't supposed to sound that way?

Now since are so insistent that we use the Greek source, can you explain to me why the writer of the book of "James" is called "James"? The Greek isn't even close. If you would check your premise for just a moment, and look it up, you will see why GEEESUS is prefered by so many to "Yeshua" - because the later is just too JOOOISH, just like "Jacob" is too JOOISH for the Master's half brother.
71 posted on 01/17/2010 12:12:33 PM PST by Tzfat
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To: Cvengr

Silliness. God is unlimited. This is all just an example of the arrogance of man.


72 posted on 01/17/2010 12:18:40 PM PST by StolarStorm
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To: plsjr
You really need to do some personal research on what the words "I am" mean in each of those contexts instead of regurgitating error ridden lessons you've been taught.

Simply put, if Jesus = God then there cannot be any differences.

But the differences between God and Jesus are abundant, therefore Jesus does not equal God.

Was God born? No Jesus was.

Can God be tempted with evil? No, but Jesus was.

Did God tell people that Jesus was his begotten son in which he was well pleased? Yes. Do you think God knows who he is and who Jesus is? I'd say so....so why would you argue with God Almighty?

73 posted on 01/17/2010 2:20:38 PM PST by Eagle Eye (The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.)
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To: Colofornian
Anyone who denies the event that occurred on Calgary and the undeniable law that was established there will suffer the same eternal fate as the Pharisees.

the Old Testament no longer applies. Fire and Brimstone has left the Earth on that day that the sins of the World were cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

It is written from that day forward that no man shall enter the kingdom of Heaven except through him.

There is not much more to interpret here.

74 posted on 01/17/2010 2:32:57 PM PST by PSYCHO-FREEP
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To: Eagle Eye
You are referring to the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They are one and the same. And yes, Jesus is God. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. (Al Shadai)

You must not understand clearly what the bible teaches.

75 posted on 01/17/2010 2:40:30 PM PST by PSYCHO-FREEP
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To: plsjr; Eagle Eye; Diego1618
You dismiss the Gospels

That is what you claim.

We will each find out who is right when we die.

That you are waiting for the truth to hit you after you die doesn't mean others are. You believe that you won't know until you die, yet you go ahead and teach. Not exactly credible.

My prayer is that neither of us find we were wrong when/if we meet our Maker.

In a universe run on truth and order, things must make sense. Opposites are not the same. Three does not equal one and so forth. Truth is its own defense and does not require a false sense of security in numbers.

76 posted on 01/17/2010 4:19:06 PM PST by Ezekiel (The Obama-nation began with the Inauguration of Desolation.)
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To: PSYCHO-FREEP

You say that God is Three while the Bible says that God is One.

You say that Jesus is God while the Bible says that Jesus is the Son of God.

You say that there is a Holy Trinity while the Bible says nothing about any trinity.

God said that Jesus was his son.

The Bible says that God is invisible, yet Jesus was seen by many.

The Bible says that Jesus was born, Jesus lived, Jesus was tempted, Jesus died, and then God raised Jesus from the dead.

The Bible says that Jesus is seated at God’s right hand.

You seem to say that the words Jesus and God are interchangable, that there is no difference in the beings they represent.

Your opinions are not borne out in the Bible.

All it takes is one difference between Jesus and God and they are not the same.


77 posted on 01/17/2010 4:57:32 PM PST by Eagle Eye (The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.)
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To: Ezekiel

[plsjr:] You dismiss the Gospels
[Ezekiel:] That is what you claim.

In your first post, you wrote:
[plsjr:] Jesus stated he was the "I AM", meaning He was God:
[Ezekiel:] No. God is One.

In the Gospels (no condescention intended when write for clarification that I believe you understand “the Gospels” are the first four books of the Christian Bible), Jesus’ disciples document His acts and words including where He identifies Himself as the savior prophesied in fulfillment of the scriptures and correlates Himself with the Creator.

You counter my statement: “Jesus stated he was the "I AM", meaning He was God:” saying “No. God is One.”.

Please explain to me why you wrote "That is what you claim". as opposed to either explaining what you meant or admitting my assertion that you deny the Gospels is true. (Parsing words betrays the intent to confuse and deceive – if that was your purpose, your forthrightness in this discussion is suspect.)


Also, from your first post:
[Ezekiel:] He kept emphasizing this but who listens. The Jews haven't fallen for the man-god trinity. And true prophets were abused/run off/slain for failing to deliver happy-happy-joy-joy messages. Nothing new under the sun.

By “He” I infer you mean God, and yes, in the Old Testament The Lord exhaustively identifies Himself (through His prophets) as the One True Living God. I believe He does this to differentiate His existence from the lack of existence of other human gods and from Satan and his minions. Regardless, God’s prophets also spoke of His Son who will rule as king:

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

and
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

As far as "happy-happy-joy-joy messages" are concerned, this thread asks the question at the heart of the Gospel and is no joyful message for those who turn away (but IS a joyous message for those who have accepted and will accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior).
Christ's desciples were abused/run off/slain for delivering their message of doom for the unaccepting, does that make them true prophets?

A question derives from your reference to the Jews in the third person: are you a contrarian, a Jew, a Diest, or an Islamist, or what (some of your other posts seem to support and derive from Judaism)?


[plsjr:] We will each find out who is right when we die.
[Ezekiel:] That you are waiting for the truth to hit you after you die doesn't mean others are. You believe that you won't know until you die, yet you go ahead and teach. Not exactly credible.


I'm not waiting in order to find out; in my faith I know Heaven is my destination. You should have understood that, and with my next statement "My prayer is that neither of us find we were wrong when/if we meet our Maker..", you are the one straining credibility with the inference that I doubt.
I'm seeking God (and Jesus / the Holy Spirit) to do His will.
I’m concerned about your and others' incredulity because I believe God wants as many of His people as possible to accept His offer of salvation - He wants me among the many in His Church to encourage its acceptance.


[plsjr:] My prayer is that neither of us find we were wrong when/if we meet our Maker.
[Ezekiel:] In a universe run on truth and order, things must make sense. Opposites are not the same. Three does not equal one and so forth. Truth is its own defense and does not require a false sense of security in numbers.


Who’s” truth and order”, who’s “sense” applies, God’s or yours? I’m not worthy to presume my sense of right and wrong equal to God’s.
I have no problem believing God is capable of anything that is good, and no problem accepting that there is more than one element to His being.
I’m not the one obsessing about numbers.

Are you sure it’s not you seeking the security of the number ‘One’ to deny the deity prophesied about and claimed by Jesus Christ and the salvation it can provide you?


78 posted on 01/18/2010 4:32:08 AM PST by plsjr (<>< ... http://NewSpring.cc/webservice - check it out!)
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To: PSYCHO-FREEP
Anyone who denies the event that occurred on Calgary and the undeniable law that was established there will suffer the same eternal fate as the Pharisees

Wow. There you go with that Canada thing again. What's up? Are you being sarcastic? As for the "same eternal fate as the Pharisees" - you mean Pharisees like Joseph of Aramathea? Or Nicodemus? Or Paul? Spend some time actualy reading the Bible quit with the theological spew.
79 posted on 01/18/2010 4:43:45 AM PST by Tzfat
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To: PSYCHO-FREEP
(Al Shadai) You must not understand clearly what the bible teaches.

Who is "Al Shadai"? If you don't read Hebrew, don't pretend that you do. "Al" is an Arabic root, not Hebrew. Unless you meant some guy named "Al" - maybe that explains it?
80 posted on 01/18/2010 4:47:04 AM PST by Tzfat
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To: Eagle Eye
"You really need to do some personal research on what the words "I am" mean in each of those contexts instead of regurgitating error ridden lessons you've been taught.

The Old Testament is in Hebrew and the source for John is in Greek. Direct correlation of the words are a matter of men's opinion, and as it turns out, unnecessary.

The two following citations provide the context for what was intended in God's and Jesus' statements:

Exodus 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them?

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations.


As you can see, God intended Himself to be identified with "I AM" for all posterity.



(Jesus Speaking in John 8, where he identifies Himself to the Pharisees/Jews repeatedly as "I am":)

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.


Jesus was saying that He was the One who preexisted Abraham using the everlasting self-reference God specified to Moses.

The Pharisees/Jews knew exactly what he was saying and attempted to attack him (unsuccessfully).

Please help me identify my errors/misconceptions/misunderstanding.

Simply put, if Jesus = God then there cannot be any differences.

But the differences between God and Jesus are abundant, therefore Jesus does not equal God.

Was God born? No Jesus was.

Can God be tempted with evil? No, but Jesus was.


You've oversimplified in an attempt to make your case, using what is called a 'straw-man' argument.
Of course God≠Jesus in the mathematical sense. (I'm guessing it's more like Jesus∋God)

Again in Exodus:

Exodus 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, [even] to Horeb.

Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed.

Exodus 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

Exodus 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here [am] I.


The conclusions that could be drawn from this passage are:
    (a) The Angel of the Lord was the Lord (God), mathematically, or
    (b)Both The Angel of the Lord and God occupied the vicinity of the bush.

I'm of the opinion (held as well by others) that they were two aspects of one entity, one of those aspects being He who appears as Immanuel.
I'm open to other perspectives as I realize this is but an opinion and subject to human error.

Did God tell people that Jesus was his begotten son in which he was well pleased? Yes. Do you think God knows who he is and who Jesus is? I'd say so....so why would you argue with God Almighty?

I don't, I trust in God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

81 posted on 01/18/2010 7:00:06 AM PST by plsjr (<>< ... http://NewSpring.cc/webservice - check it out!)
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To: Eagle Eye; PSYCHO-FREEP
All it takes is one difference between Jesus and God and they are not the same.

No, only a misrepresentation of the definition of the Trinity as found in the Bible.

John 1:1* ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

The Bible tells us they are the same.

82 posted on 01/18/2010 12:26:47 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla; PSYCHO-FREEP; Ezekiel; Jeremiah Jr; Diego1618; Armageddon; cyn; plsjr
No, only a misrepresentation of the definition of the Trinity as found in the Bible

I wasn't aware that the word Trinity was anywhere in the Bible!

And what about the phrase 'god the son'? Where is that in the Bible?

Seems you have to use unBiblical words because you're describing an unBiblical concept.

God is invisible, and Jesus was the visible representation of God, right?

Wasn't it God Almighty who identified Jesus as his (God's) son?

We can keep it real simple...God is God, Christ is Christ and one is not really three.

83 posted on 01/18/2010 12:55:53 PM PST by Eagle Eye (The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.)
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To: Godzilla
John 1:1* ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

The problem with your interpretation is that it flagrantly ignore clear verses that contradict it.

God is not a man that he should lie...nor the son of man that he should repent

God is one; there is only one God

God cannot be tempted with evil

God is spirit; God is invisible

Jesus was/is a man and the Son of Man

Jesus was tempted in all ways

Jesus was visible and in the flesh.

God said that Jesus was his son and Jesus said that God was his father, yet you want to call both of the liars!

Me? I like to believe that Jesus is God's only begotten son who was conceived by a virgin, born and lived a life that fulfilled the law and prophesies of the Messiah, died and was resurrected after three days and nights, and then ascended to sit on the right hand of God.

84 posted on 01/18/2010 1:05:37 PM PST by Eagle Eye (The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.)
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To: Eagle Eye
I wasn't aware that the word Trinity was anywhere in the Bible!

Neither will you find the word "Bible" either - does that negate it? Is the principle taught. To take you logic further - "omniscience" which means "all-knowing," "omnipotence" which means "all-powerful," and "omnipresence" which means "present everywhere," are words not found in the Bible either, but we use them to describe the attributes of God. Therefore it is not necessary to see a specific word in the bible when that corresponding concept is found true.

And what about the phrase 'god the son'? Where is that in the Bible?

See above - scripture attributes him the title of "Son of God" and God the Son describes His position in the trinity.

We can keep it real simple...God is God, Christ is Christ and one is not really three.

So you are advocating polytheism - interesting.

85 posted on 01/18/2010 2:15:24 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Eagle Eye
John 1:1* ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
The problem with your interpretation is that it flagrantly ignore clear verses that contradict it.

OK, so you call the Apostle John a liar then. Only by twisting those 'other' verses can you come to your conclusion. Then again, to prove your point you de facto render the bible worthless to cite.

I find it sad that by eliminating an honest representation of the doctrine of the Trinity is the only mean available for you to use. Jesus claimed the title "I AM" preexisting before Abraham, he claims the title "Alpha and Omega", cited to God. Jesus accepted the worship of Thomas (my Lord and God).

The prophet spoke of Jesus saying Emmanuel, and in another "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." (Isa 9:6)

God said that Jesus was his son and Jesus said that God was his father, yet you want to call both of the liars!

That they referenced each other by their position in the Trinity is no wonder - Jesus was 100% God and 100% man

Me? I like to believe that Jesus is God's only begotten son who was conceived by a virgin, born and lived a life that fulfilled the law and prophesies of the Messiah, died and was resurrected after three days and nights, and then ascended to sit on the right hand of God.

Why a virgin - you make Jesus out to be no different from any other prophet - as such nothing special about His birth was necessary. LOL, you are sounding like a mormon and God having sex with Mary in accordance with Greek theology. LOL, speaking of ignoring verses, Jesus over and over again links Himself to a pre-existence with God the Father. Your postings are full of serious misconceptions and statements as to who Jesus is.

86 posted on 01/18/2010 2:31:55 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: plsjr; Eagle Eye; Diego1618; Tzfat

Please explain to me why you wrote "That is what you claim". as opposed to either explaining what you meant or admitting my assertion that you deny the Gospels is true. (Parsing words betrays the intent to confuse and deceive – if that was your purpose, your forthrightness in this discussion is suspect.)

How hard is this? Geez, it is exactly that: what you claimed. So you assert something - that doesn't make it true. Why should I go on the defensive about what you believe?

As far as "happy-happy-joy-joy messages" are concerned, this thread asks the question at the heart of the Gospel and is no joyful message for those who turn away (but IS a joyous message for those who have accepted and will accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior).

That God is One (and not three) is no joyful message for those who turn away (but IS a joyous message for those who have accepted and will accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior).

Mark 12:28-34

28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

A question derives from your reference to the Jews in the third person: are you a contrarian, a Jew, a Diest, or an Islamist, or what (some of your other posts seem to support and derive from Judaism)?

It is quite apparent that you don't know me.

87 posted on 01/18/2010 6:18:21 PM PST by Ezekiel (The Obama-nation began with the Inauguration of Desolation.)
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To: Godzilla
OK, so you call the Apostle John a liar then. Only by twisting those 'other' verses can you come to your conclusion. Then again, to prove your point you de facto render the bible worthless to cite.

Ding ding ding! We have the winner of the straw man argument! Yes!!

Did John also write the first, second and third epistles?

You know, the ones that repeatedly call Jesus Christ the Son of God?

You say that Jesus is God. I say that he is the son of God, the Christ. But you say Jesus is God.

who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?

Well, who is the liar? He that claims Jesus is God or he that claims Jesus is the Christ?

I'm sorry, the rest of your ramblings would take a lot more time and patience than I have right now...but holy moly...Jesus never claimed a 'title' of I Am...I've heard a lot of silly things on these discussions but you are bringing in some fresh silliness.

88 posted on 01/18/2010 7:04:34 PM PST by Eagle Eye (The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.)
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To: Eagle Eye; aMorePerfectUnion; Colofornian; ejonesie22
Did John also write the first, second and third epistles? You know, the ones that repeatedly call Jesus Christ the Son of God?

Yep, same John
1John 22* Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (Note two of the three persons in the Trinity linked as equals)
23* Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24* Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
Notice, you can't have one without the other. Oh and BTW, notice you CAPITALIZE Jesus title (Son of God), in the Greek that has the same meaning as God the Son.

1John 4: 2* Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3* And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Yep, same John, and this passage makes no sense if Jesus originated at His birth. The phrase "come in the flesh" indicates that Jesus did indeed exist prior to His earthly ministry. - See John 1:1 again - my coherence in the scriptures on this point.

1 John 5:20* And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. In Christ the true God is revealed to us and in him we have eternal life. The divinity of Christ is most clearly proved by this passage. Yep, this is the same John.

2 John 9* Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. Wow, that same John pointing to the equality of the Son and the Father. You don't have Christ, you don't have God, but if you have Christ you have BOTH Christ and the Father.

Well, I guess you failed to really read John's epistles very closely given the above.

I'm sorry, the rest of your ramblings would take a lot more time and patience than I have right now...but holy moly...Jesus never claimed a 'title' of I Am...I've heard a lot of silly things on these discussions but you are bringing in some fresh silliness.

Here you pontificate on a subject and it is evident you haven't read the bible on the same subject -
Joh 8:58* Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
And the people sought to stone Him for blasphemy. A solemn and official declaration, preceded by "Verily, verily" [see Joh 3:3]. Jesus does not merely assert that he was before Abraham, but before Abraham was, I AM. It identifies with the I AM of the Old Testament. Divinity has no past tense, no future tense, but always the present. Please take some time to better read the bible before posting such drivel :)

89 posted on 01/18/2010 9:02:16 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Ezekiel

Nothing but evasiveness.

You obviously have as a purpose something other than to engage in a meaningful discussion; any further effort on my part would be wasted.

I pray for God’s blessings on you.

fin.


90 posted on 01/19/2010 2:00:50 AM PST by plsjr (<>< ... http://NewSpring.cc/webservice - check it out!)
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To: Godzilla

I would not know where to begin. Sometimes the obvious is unseen by the oblivious.


91 posted on 01/19/2010 3:50:40 AM PST by ejonesie22
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To: Godzilla; Ezekiel
1 John 5:20* And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him (Him=God) that is true, and we are in him (Him=God)that is true, even in his(His=God's) Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God,(Him=God) and eternal life. In Christ the true God is revealed to us and in him(Him=God) we have eternal life.

Tell me where you disagree:

God is spirit

God is invisible

God is not a man

God in not the son of man

God cannot be tempted with evil

God is eternal without beginning or end

God is omniscient

God is one

Jesus came in the flesh

Jesus was visible

Jesus was a man

Jesus was the son of man

Jesus was tempted with evil

Jesus had a beginning (gennesis)

Jesus did not know all

Jesus is the mediator between man and God.

The theme of John's letters is that even by that time the truth of One God had been paganized making it necessary for John to write and detail how that Jesus was the Son of God and not god the son.

It is interesting to note that trinitarians forged some verses to twist the meaning for their benefit.

John makes it abundantly clear that the Father and the Son are not identical even though they are similar. If one says they are identical then they have denied their separate identities. This is quite common with those that profess that having three gods in god the father god the son and god the holy spirit really isn't three but is one.

One of the most fundamental rules for Biblical interpretation is that most of the Bible interprets itself as written and says what it means.

Another fundamental rule is that one should interpret in light of the many, clear, well defined verses instead of the few complex or seemingly ambiguous ones.

I believe that the Bible clearly states that Jesus is the Son of God about 50 times while it never once say god the son. Never once.

Yet you will give him that title regardless of what the Bible says or fails to say.

92 posted on 01/19/2010 6:59:42 AM PST by Eagle Eye (The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.)
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To: Eagle Eye; Godzilla; PSYCHO-FREEP; Ezekiel; Jeremiah Jr; Diego1618; Armageddon; cyn; plsjr; ...
I wasn't aware that the word Trinity was anywhere in the Bible! And what about the phrase 'god the son'? Where is that in the Bible? Seems you have to use unBiblical words because you're describing an unBiblical concept.

I wasn't aware that the word "Bible" was anywhere in the Bible! (But I guess to you, Eagle Eye, the "Bible" is therefore "unbiblical," too?) You can draw up a long list of "words" NOT in the Bible: rapture, eschatology, theology, I could go on & on...the fact is the Bible teaches that...
...Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost both are described in the Bible with attributes and characteristics belonging to God alone...
...it's there from Jesus Christ maintaining that He has the authority to forgive sins that are not committed against Him...
...to Annanias & Saphira lying to the Holy Spirit -- and then a few verses later, saying they lied to God...
...It's there even in the baptism "formula" of baptizing in the singular NAME (not plural NAMES) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:18-20) [They share the same divine identity, though having distinct Persons]

If Jesus Christ, in Matthew 19:5-6 can declare "and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one." when it comes to a married couple, who in heaven's name are YOU to come and in an analogous way to the manner in which you've responded to Godzilla, declare...???

Eagle Eye: "Well, hey Godzilla, how dare you misrepresent the 'BInity' of married couples..."

Godzilla: "Uh, I haven't. Take it up with Jesus. Take it up with the Bible -- Matthew 19:5-6."

Eagle Eye: "OK, I will!"

Eagle Eye: "Well, hey Jesus, how dare you misrepresent the 'BInity' of married couples 'cause, you know, Jesus we 'all know' that even married couples are still two people. So, Jesus, why don't you just do a 'takeback' on your 'they are no longer two, but one' verbiage and we'll overlook it. Besides Jesus, we all know that you NEVER used the word 'binity' ANYWHERE in the gospels. So, we just don't know where the BInitarians get this concept of this 'two-become-one' marriage crud. Thanks for correcting your maritalology, Jesus!"

My challenge to you, Eagle Eye: If Jesus Christ could describe a mere mortal married couple as 2-in-1, on what grounds do you thereby claim that the God who created them...the God who "joined them together" (Matt. 19:6)...is somehow less able to be either equally or even more united as a Being who has loved from eternity even before the creation of any angel or man???

God is no solitary solo unit. Even "unity" implies "community." A giver of love must have a receiver of love. And the tri-unified God has been a complete, perfect Social Unity and Social Community from eternity past!

93 posted on 01/19/2010 12:37:00 PM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it!)
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To: StolarStorm

***God can choose to save anyone he pleases to.***

And He does, only though Jesus. Said so Himself.


94 posted on 01/19/2010 12:45:07 PM PST by Gamecock (We always have reasons for doing what we do.)
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To: Eagle Eye
God is not a man God in not the son of man

But God the Son took the form of a man 100% God, 100% man.

God cannot be tempted with evil

As the God-man, Jesus could (and was tempted)

God is eternal without beginning or end

So is Jesus.

God is one

So the doctrine of the Trinity attests to.

Jesus came in the flesh

Ah, Jesus had a pre-existance - the Word was with God and the Word was God

Jesus had a beginning (gennesis)

See answer above - God has no begining and end, Jesus was God and thus no begining or end either.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

The theme of John's letters is that even by that time the truth of One God had been paganized making it necessary for John to write and detail how that Jesus was the Son of God and not god the son.

Sorry, John is one of the strongest of the Gospels in identifying Jesus as God the Son through proving His deity. The very first verse of the gospel destroys your arguement.

It is interesting to note that trinitarians forged some verses to twist the meaning for their benefit.

It is interesting arians twist and ignore verses to make their claim - and Trinitians don't need to use those passages to prove their point.

John makes it abundantly clear that the Father and the Son are not identical even though they are similar. If one says they are identical then they have denied their separate identities.

I double dog dare you to present the definition of the doctrine of the Trinty used by Trintarians - were you to do so you would recognize how stupid your strawman above is. Identical but not similar - pretty close to Trinitarian understanding if you BOTHER to do the research for the definition.

One of the most fundamental rules for Biblical interpretation is that most of the Bible interprets itself as written and says what it means.

"And the Word was with God and the Word was God"

I believe that the Bible clearly states that Jesus is the Son of God about 50 times while it never once say god the son. Never once.

Just like your lame strawman on the absence of the word "Trinity", absence of that precise phrase does not invalidate the principle contained in the bible.

Yet you will give him that title regardless of what the Bible says or fails to say.

I don't give Him that title - that is the Title that is His by His very nature, true God from true God.

95 posted on 01/19/2010 1:10:25 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Colofornian
Wow...rarely do we see so much stench in such a small space!

Bible means book. It is the common name for the collection of writings. Why is that point so important to you? Ahhhh....another straw man argument that you so skillfully dismantled!P> Amazing! Compared to yourself you are a darned genius!

You have a problem in that you have to use unBiblical terms, ignore clear scripture, and twist other scripture in order to promulgate a 3-in-1 trinity.

God is no solitary solo unit.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.

So the Bible says that God is one but you say Got is not a solitary unit! Ok, so who do we believe? You with your unbiblical ideas or the Bible?

Sadly you don't recognize figures of speech. Married couples become one in unity, purpose, etc but they are not literally one person.

So if Jesus is God because he and God are one, does that mean that Jesus prayed for his disciples to be God as well since he wanted them to be one, too?

Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

God is one. He has many aspects and several names that describe his relationship to his creation, his people, and his adversaries. But he is one.

This is in contrast to the pagan gods who had many names that also described their powers but they were pluralistic gods and God Almighty wanted it known that he was not the same as the pagan gods.

In some ways it is understandable how the uninitiated see Jesus as God: they don't understand how God can delegate power and authority to his son; they don't understand what it really means to conduct business in the Father's name; and they certainly do not understand that Jesus does, in fact, stand in place of God to mortal man, that mortal man cannot get to God without going through Christ and that Christ mediates between man and God.

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Oh, by the way, notice that this verse distinguishes a difference between God and man and also puts Christ in the category of man. How about that? You put Christ in the category of God/Godman/God the Son, yet the Bible (there's that word again) says Jesus Christ is a man...and it says it over and over and over...you'd think you'd get the point!

Yep, numerous references to Jesus being a man, the son of man, and the Son of God but NOT ONE SINGLE REFERENCE TO GOD THE SON!

God had many opportunities to clearly state that Jesus was God of God the Son or Godman or something like that but God instead chose to CLEARLY state that Jesus was his son.

But you can't stop arguing with God, can you?

96 posted on 01/19/2010 5:01:28 PM PST by Eagle Eye (The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.)
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To: Godzilla; Ezekiel

I’d like to point out something.

Like it or not I continually bring you back to Bible scriptures and some common sense.

Meanwhile you are using the doctrine of the trinity for your side.

And really, that is where this goes; it is the trinity versus the Bible.

They don’t mesh or match. They are opposed to each other.

So I’ll continue quoting the Bible to you and you can keep using terms and concepts that are not in the Bible to describe a concept that isn’t in the Bible.

And that is the simple down and dirty of it; you simply don’t believe the Bible and continue to argue against it.

And in all fairness, I simply don’t believe the doctrine of the trinity and continue to argue against it.


97 posted on 01/19/2010 5:07:18 PM PST by Eagle Eye (The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.)
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To: Eagle Eye; ejonesie22; Colofornian
Like it or not I continually bring you back to Bible scriptures and some common sense.

My EE, seems that I've been the one citing all the scriptures and pointing out the errors of your ways.

Meanwhile you are using the doctrine of the trinity for your side. And really, that is where this goes; it is the trinity versus the Bible.

Nope, the bible and the Trinity go hand in hand.

And that is the simple down and dirty of it; you simply don’t believe the Bible and continue to argue against it.

LOL, what a piece of fallderall. I believe in the Trinity because I believe the Bible. I have no cognitive dissonance in this regard, however it is present in your posts.

And in all fairness, I simply don’t believe the doctrine of the trinity and continue to argue against it.

I previously challenged you to cite what the doctrine of the Trinity is - regardless of whether you believe it or not. It is becoming completely apparent from your posts that there is no fundamental comprehension of what the doctrine of the Trinity actually states. Ignorant postings on a doctrine not understood is one thing, arrogant ignorant postings on a doctrine you will not do the simple research to examine is another.

98 posted on 01/19/2010 5:57:00 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla
I previously challenged you to cite what the doctrine of the Trinity is - regardless of whether you believe it or not.

What? You want me to post it for you?

Look, you are the one saying that a three in one doctrine meshes with the Bible stating that God is one and there is only one God.

You are the one taking about God the Son when there is absolutely no Biblical reference to such a title.

What is most lame about trinitarians is their total lack of logic and their reliance on 'god can do anything' to reconcile the contradictions in their own arguments.

If you believed the Bible then you would believe that God called Jesus his son.

If you believed the Bible you'd believe that Jesus is a man and the mediator between God and man, not God himself.

But you don't by your own unwitting admission.

99 posted on 01/19/2010 6:08:10 PM PST by Eagle Eye (The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.)
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To: Eagle Eye
Once again your post displays a gross ignorance about the doctrine - regardless of whether or not you believe it. Were on to take the "logic" you cite, God would not be omniscient, or omnipotent either - because the 'word' is not found in the Bible.

What is most lame about trinitarians is their total lack of logic and their reliance on 'god can do anything' to reconcile the contradictions in their own arguments.

I would challenge you to cite my defense of the Trinity as "God can do anything' (is that something you don't believe)? Go ahead, search upthread and find it (crickets)

If you believed the Bible you'd believe that Jesus is a man and the mediator between God and man, not God himself.

I believe the Bible and believe Jesus to be fully God and fully man.

If you believed the Bible then you would believe that God called Jesus his son.

I believe the Bible because it teaches that Jesus was -
Tim 3:16* And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

If you believed in the Bible, you would believe Jesus is God manifested in the flesh - if you don't then

1 Tim 4:4:1* ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2* Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

But you don't by your own unwitting admission.

ROTFLAICGU - how pitiful EE - you've been silenced on John 1:1, you've been silenced when shown that Jesus uses the divine epithet "I AM" (Jn 8.58-59, 24, 28), you are silent when shown that Jesus lays claim to the same title "Alpha and the Omega" as God has. And He is worshiped and called God by His disciples.

Come on EE, show me that you can think deeper than these posts indicate. Certainly, you can at least elucidate what the definition of the Trinity is - regardless of your belief. Otherwise you keep failing to knock your own strawmen down.

100 posted on 01/19/2010 6:36:46 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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