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Fading Away: Aging congregation, demographics, force church members to face an uncertain future
e Portland Tribune ^ | Jan 14, 2010 | Peter Korn

Posted on 01/17/2010 8:30:13 PM PST by hiho hiho

There is no hospice for congregations facing the end of their days. No advanced directives telling caregivers when to take action and when to let go.

Dying people make out wills to direct the inheritance of their remaining possessions, but there is no legal equivalent for a dying church. Jewish tradition directs fathers to write ethical wills that explain the values by which they have led their lives, to be read by their children after they pass.

But when a church dies, there is no one left to do the reading.

On a chilly Sunday morning, congregants of Eastminster Presbyterian Church gather together to pray in their Northeast Halsey Street chapel. They shed their heavy coats and hats and set them on empty seats. Smiles abound. Many seem to visibly relax as they greet old friends with a gentle hand on a shoulder or a quick embrace. Here they have found sanctuary.

And, too, the people of Eastminster are more vulnerable than most to the harsh realities of an unforgiving Columbia River Gorge wind. They are old.

Thirty-five years ago, Eastminster was a vibrant church, with two services because the sanctuary was not large enough to contain the crowd. In 1972, the church had 450 members and 250 children in Sunday School.

This Sunday, there are fewer than 30 people attending services. The congregation’s average age, according to the church’s latest survey, is 79.

In February, the church’s Session – essentially its board of directors – will meet in the culmination of a three-month process intended to guide Eastminster’s future. The most likely option is that some plan will be put in place leading to the closing of the church.

Portland is often referred to as the least-churched city in the country, and while national statistics show a few areas of New England and the West reporting similarly low or even lower numbers of religious observance, Eastminster’s story is a tale about local attitudes toward organized religion and spirituality.

There are explanations for Eastminster’s failing attendance and unsustainable economics, and for the fact that none of the adult children of these elderly parishioners are bringing their own families into the church where they grew up. Those same explanations have been cited in dozens of local churches that have either sold their properties or evolved into different entities.

Eastminster’s pastor, Brian Heron, says he knows of two local Presbyterian churches that have closed in recent years, and he estimates that at least a dozen others are facing similar situations.

“They’re all just hanging by a thread, surviving month to month, year to year,” Heron says.

David Leslie, executive director of nonprofit Ecumenical Ministries of Oregon, a statewide association of churches, says there is no precise count of how many Portland-area churches have failed, but many are searching for new models as a way of staying alive. Some rent space to community organizations; others have sold their buildings to nonprofits and simply pay rent to hold services.

Leslie says it is likely that in the future there will be church buildings shared by three or four congregations.

Some of the failing churches are simply victims of changing neighborhoods, Leslie says.

“At the base of this is the eternal reality that nothing is permanent,” Leslie says. “You look around Portland communities, some neighborhoods were middle class and they became lower income, and some of those neighborhoods became high income. A lot of it is demographic change, economics shifting.

“If the question comes back to why are some of these churches on life support, I think the fundamental question is how in tune are they to the question of who is my neighbor? Is the church a place that is doing constant outreach to the neighborhood and the people who are around the church?”

Like a family That, more than any other factor, helps explain what has happened at Eastminster. The church last year adopted a slogan, “A Caring Community in a Changing World.” For most of the past 55 years, that caring has been focused in one direction – inward. In the process, congregants neglected the invigoration that comes from opening their doors to the world outside.

Barbara Rock, Eastminster’s last remaining charter member, remembers the day in 1954 when a minister knocked on her door saying he wanted to start a church in her neighborhood. By the end of that year a charter had been signed by about two dozen people in a makeshift chapel in her basement, with curtains hiding the plumbing pipes, a picture of Jesus temporarily attached to a curtain and a gathering of children off to one side.

“It was like a family,” Rock says. “All young couples with little children, and we all had the same things in common – not much money and the church was our social life.”

In 1960, Rock moved to Northern California. When she returned in 1983, going back to Eastminster felt like coming home. She loved the fact that the church looked exactly the same as when she had left. New faces and new programs to attract young members were not what she was hoping to find.

“We were looking for a haven. We were looking for peace and our friends,” Rock says.

Jerome and Lucile Harden needed and found comfort in the Eastminster community when their daughter Debbie died suddenly in 1991. Church members brought meals to their house and all the companionship the couple needed. Friendships deepened.

Having dealt with a much greater loss, the Hardens are able to face possibility of Eastminster closing philosophically.

“I personally don’t really see us surviving,” says Jerome. “It’s sad because that building, that community, has been a part of our life for 30 years. But that doesn’t mean you stop living. Life goes on.”

Longtime congregant Walter Lersch says hiring Heron was among the best moves ever made by the Eastminster parishioners. But it happened way too late.

“When our children were little I saw the problem. I felt we were going to die,” Lersch says. “A lot of people had left, and nobody new was coming in. This was 20 years ago.”

Lersch and others say there were discussions, but nobody in the congregation was willing to take the lead toward a more open and inviting church. The parishioners of Eastminster grew old together.

But new members did not solely have to come from the outside. There were always those children.

“We’ve lost two generations,” Lersch says. “We’ve lost our own children, and we have lost our children’s children.”

Going through cycles Lersch and his wife, Florence, met at Eastminster. She was in the choir and he started attending services on his own in 1978. They raised their children there, among them daughter Christine Yanik, who has children of her own with husband Grant.

Christine says she would never raise her two children there, though she reluctantly allows her parents to take their grandchildren to Eastminster some Sunday mornings.

In some ways, the reasons Christine gives for rejecting Eastminster put her smack in the middle of her own generation and Pacific Northwest attitudes toward religion. She and Grant talk about believing in a divine being, and exploring their own version of spirituality, combining elements of Wicca, Buddhism and other religions they have studied.

Nearly all their friends classify themselves as spiritual without formally attending a church, synagogue or mosque.

What Christine found most off-putting about Eastminster is the very thing that Barbara Rock longed for when she returned from California, and found at Eastminster – familiar faces, familiar liturgy and real community.

“Everything goes through cycles,” Yanik says. “You’re born, you start to grow, you get smarter. With that comes maturing and change. Eastminster never changes. It never grew; it never matured.”

All those years Christine saw her parents comfort other congregants during times of need, and finding fellowship with their Eastminster friends. But it always seemed to her that, given the message of the religion, it wasn’t enough.

She heard the minister talk about welcoming in the stranger, and taking care of the poor. But Yanik didn’t see that happening through church activities. Nobody was offering to shelter the homeless on Burnside, or feed the hungry of outer east side Portland.

“They’re very good about taking care of each other, but it’s taking care of each other, not helping take care of the community,” Yanik says.

Lersch says his daughter could be right, and that he has learned a lesson, even if it may be too late to save Eastminster.

“We understand now that our community changed and we didn’t,” he says.

Changed thinking Ironically, Eastminster has changed. Three years ago, the church hired Brian Heron to take them through the process of either facing its final days, or emerging as something different. Members of Eastminster didn’t just want to let their church die, Heron says. At the very least they wanted to leave a legacy, something to mark what they had been.

Heron talks to congregants about learning to let go of their church as they have known it. Years ago, in California, Heron ministered in a hospice, helping dying patients through the last days of their lives. He knows this process. But he isn’t ready yet to declare Eastminster lifeless. Not quite.

Maybe there’s another congregation out there, he says, which lacks a building but could supply members in the space-sharing model predicted by David Leslie of Ecumenical Ministries.

Maybe a younger, homeless congregation will come to worship with the members of Eastminster, and eventually take over the building.

Maybe all of this could be combined with using Eastminster’s three acres of property and empty classrooms for community gardens and housing the homeless, and make up for some of those years when such ideas were largely ignored.

Heron has also introduced a much more progressive, and liberal form of Christianity to Eastminster, and has found his ideas welcomed. The traditional Sunday morning Bible reading now is accompanied by a second reading from sources that have included Buddhist text and children’s books.

“I’m just amazed at how our thinking has changed,” says Florence Lersch about Heron’s leadership.

On Feb. 14, Eastminster’s three months of introspection and planning culminates in a meeting of the church’s governing Session. Whatever is decided, the choice need not be viewed as tragic, or even failing, says Heron.

“Part of (Christianity’s) story is a story of death and resurrection,” Heron says. “We’re trying to trust that process. We don’t have to fight death. We can face it, we can move through it, and live through it gracefully and see what new life looks like on the other side.”


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: elderly; newage; pcusa; presbyterian; religiousleft; seniors
"The traditional Sunday morning Bible reading now is accompanied by a second reading from sources that have included Buddhist text and children’s books."
1 posted on 01/17/2010 8:30:15 PM PST by hiho hiho
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To: hiho hiho

Frankly I think if you change the church to suit the neighborhood you’re saving a building, not a congregation.


2 posted on 01/17/2010 8:42:48 PM PST by VeniVidiVici (Mary Jo Kopechne would be a Scott Brown voter!!)
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To: hiho hiho

There’s your problem right there.


3 posted on 01/17/2010 8:44:03 PM PST by ottbmare (I could agree wth you, but then we'd both be wrong.)
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To: hiho hiho

**a second reading from sources that have included Buddhist text and children’s books.”**

No wonder it is fading.


4 posted on 01/17/2010 8:47:03 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: hiho hiho; abcraghead; aimhigh; Archie Bunker on steroids; bicycle thug; blackie; coffeebreak; ...
Oregon Ping

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Oregon Ping List.

5 posted on 01/17/2010 8:50:19 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: hiho hiho

I’m sorry, but I find most of mainline Christianity to be self-rightous atheism at heart. No wonder people aren’t flocking to it.


6 posted on 01/17/2010 8:56:21 PM PST by Our man in washington
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To: hiho hiho

Must be PCUSA....I think the PCA’s are growing...


7 posted on 01/17/2010 8:56:41 PM PST by goodnesswins (Become a Precinct Committee Person/Officer....in the GOP...or do NOT complain.)
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To: hiho hiho

I grew up in the Presbyterian church, taught Sunday School there as a teenager, was married in that church and took my kids there. Back in the 80s, some of the high school age SS class material had evolution information. That church isn’t dying, it’s growing. But as I grew older (and up) and really started listening to the sermons, I started to feel totally worthless and that there was really no hope.

Perhaps its just that the minister made me uncomfortable, although I could never put my finger on *why* and the pillars of the church think he is the greatest thing ever sent to them. Maybe I was just not meant to be a Pres., I don’t know. But that’s why I stopped going. It didn’t seem to a very happy or hopeful place that he’s talking about. I’ll never be as perfect as I supposedly should be. So why bother?


8 posted on 01/17/2010 8:58:44 PM PST by ktscarlett66 (Face it girls....I'm older and I have more insurance....)
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To: Our man in washington

Yes, and sometimes it’s not so much the church’s message (as in my case) but the people. You get people who have attended a church for years and when there is new, fresh blood that starts attending it’s ‘We’ve always done it this way’ etc etc. My cousin was instrumental in setting up a youth groupo and revitalizing the choir and music for her new church when she moved. But then people complained that she was ‘running it all’ (even tho’ no one else stepped up to start or help with this).

Sometimes you get the feeling that those who are able to help with more stuff in the church are fairly smug about their ‘higher Christian status’ as I call it.

Reading a few lines of a beautiful bit of Buddhism isn’t going to ruin a church. Many parts of many religious readings and texts are considered world literature.


9 posted on 01/17/2010 9:07:04 PM PST by ktscarlett66 (Face it girls....I'm older and I have more insurance....)
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To: ktscarlett66
I started to feel totally worthless and that there was really no hope.

Perhaps its just that the minister made me uncomfortable, although I could never put my finger on *why* and the pillars of the church think he is the greatest thing ever sent to them. Maybe I was just not meant to be a Pres., I don’t know. But that’s why I stopped going. It didn’t seem to a very happy or hopeful place that he’s talking about. I’ll never be as perfect as I supposedly should be. So why bother?

Sounds like the typical works-oriented church. The sermons will usually describe great works from the Bible, and end with an exhortation for the flock to "go and do likewise".

IMO, we should learn in church that we are indeed "worthless", but we should also learn that you are not capable of being otherwise. They should then stress that belief in Christ provides the righteousness that we all lack. We then will feel compelled to give thanks and worship the God who saved us even though we did not deserve it.

10 posted on 01/17/2010 9:17:02 PM PST by Sans-Culotte ( Pray for Obama- Psalm 109:8)
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To: hiho hiho

Josh McDowell's latest book about new age spirituality infecting the church.

11 posted on 01/17/2010 9:19:40 PM PST by HokieMom (Pacepa : Can the U.S. afford a president who can't recognize anti-Americanism?)
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To: hiho hiho

Where are the people?

At the contemporary church, where they have a rockin’ good time in the song portion of worship and a message that hits hard with truth and hope.


12 posted on 01/17/2010 9:37:35 PM PST by lurk
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To: goodnesswins
Must be PCUSA....

Bingo

"Eastminster Presbyterian Church, located in Wichita, KS, is a member of the Presbyterian Church (USA)"

http://www.eastminster.org/aboutus

13 posted on 01/17/2010 9:39:42 PM PST by Fido969 ("The hardest thing in the world to understand is income tax." - Albert Einstein)
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To: ktscarlett66

“I’ll never be as perfect as I supposedly should be. So why bother?.

That’s the whole point. You will NEVER be perfect. We are saved by grace, despite how rotten we are. The punishment we deserve for being far less than perfect was taken by Jesus on the cross. It is His gift to you. Take the gift. Embrace it. Tell everyone about it.


14 posted on 01/17/2010 9:59:15 PM PST by ModelBreaker
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To: ktscarlett66
Reading a few lines of a beautiful bit of Buddhism isn’t going to ruin a church. Many parts of many religious readings and texts are considered world literature.

Beautiful as some Buddhist texts might be, they make a poor substitute for the inspired and inerrant Word of God, and thus have no place in Christian worship.

15 posted on 01/17/2010 10:23:33 PM PST by GCC Catholic (0bama, what are you hiding? Just show us the birth certificate...)
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To: VeniVidiVici

Three acres of property in the middle of Portland is a gold mine. They should sell the building and divvy up the money to fun their retirement. (Not sure who owns the church?).

Lots of empty churches in Portland, that is for sure. On the other hand their are so many people going to church in Beaverton that the police come out to direct traffic every Sunday. I think the believers have moved out of the city, which is now full of Wiccans, as the article explains.

Not too many families want to send kids to Portland public schools.


16 posted on 01/18/2010 3:34:09 AM PST by Jack Black
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To: Fido969
"Eastminster Presbyterian Church, located in Wichita, KS, is a member of the Presbyterian Church (USA)"

Except the article is about a church in Portland. What happens when you call bingo but you have the wrong spot marked? :-)

17 posted on 01/18/2010 3:37:35 AM PST by Jack Black
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To: ottbmare
Heron has also introduced a much more progressive, and liberal form of Christianity to Eastminster, and has found his ideas welcomed. By whom?
18 posted on 01/18/2010 3:41:12 AM PST by x_plus_one (Even the Russian online newspaper Pravda featured a column about "the man with no visible past.")
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To: Salvation; ottbmare; GCC Catholic
And what would your comment be if you read that a Buddhist teacher used examples from the Christian bible in their lessons?
Quoting from the Sermon on the Mount or using the Ten Commandments as examples of moral codes to follow?
Telling their members of the good and holy man known as Jesus Christ and his message of love and compassion?

I think to reject such as this out of hand is something that is short-sighted. It makes one no less a Christian to understand the differences and similarities in other religions. That is not a conversion to what they believe and a rejection of ones Christianity, but rather a strengthening of ones own beliefs.

Just my opinion.
19 posted on 01/18/2010 4:22:29 AM PST by Tainan (Cogito, ergo conservatus)
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To: ModelBreaker

I didn’t feel that way when I went to church. Listening to sermons, it felt pretty useless to try. I’m not sure that’s how you should feel when you go to church.


20 posted on 01/18/2010 5:32:13 AM PST by ktscarlett66 (Face it girls....I'm older and I have more insurance....)
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To: Sans-Culotte

Nah. I stopped going years ago. I wanted to be inspired. Not depressed.


21 posted on 01/18/2010 5:33:55 AM PST by ktscarlett66 (Face it girls....I'm older and I have more insurance....)
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To: GCC Catholic

The greatest achievement is selflessness.
The greatest quality is seeking to serve others.
The greatest goodness is a peaceful mind.
The greatest patience is humility.

Conquer the angry man by love.
Conquer the ill-natured man by goodness.
Conquer the miser with generosity.
Conquer the liar with truth.

Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle,
and the life of the candle will not be shortened.
Happiness never decreases by being shared.

I fail to see how something like that would close a church. Aren’t those pretty much in keeping with Christian ideals? If someone quoted them but didn’t say they were Buddhist, I doubt any Christian would have a problem with them.


22 posted on 01/18/2010 5:39:54 AM PST by ktscarlett66 (Face it girls....I'm older and I have more insurance....)
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To: Tainan

” It makes one no less a Christian to understand the differences and similarities in other religions. That is not a conversion to what they believe and a rejection of ones Christianity, but rather a strengthening of ones own beliefs.”

I wholeheartedly agree.


23 posted on 01/18/2010 5:41:21 AM PST by ktscarlett66 (Face it girls....I'm older and I have more insurance....)
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To: Tainan
And what would your comment be if you read that a Buddhist teacher used examples from the Christian bible in their lessons?

I'd be thrilled, because they would be coming closer to Truth. But then again, Buddhism doesn't express itself in an exclusive manner like Christianity does.

I think to reject such as this out of hand is something that is short-sighted. It makes one no less a Christian to understand the differences and similarities in other religions. That is not a conversion to what they believe and a rejection of ones Christianity, but rather a strengthening of ones own beliefs.

Pointing out similarities and differences is laudable, but that doesn't make it right to put the writings of pagans (righteous ones perhaps, but pagans nonetheless), on the same level as divinely-inspired Scripture. In addition, there are some teachings/presuppositions of Buddhism that are in complete contrast to Christianity - which can be the beginning of weakening one's Christian faith.

24 posted on 01/18/2010 5:43:18 AM PST by GCC Catholic (0bama, what are you hiding? Just show us the birth certificate...)
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To: ktscarlett66
I fail to see how something like that would close a church. Aren’t those pretty much in keeping with Christian ideals? If someone quoted them but didn’t say they were Buddhist, I doubt any Christian would have a problem with them.

Understood in a completely Christian context, that particular passage seems fairly harmless, that I will agree with. It isn't in open contradiction with Scripture (though I might say that the highest quality is seeking to serve God; serving others flows from serving God).

But that still doesn't mean that it should be read from the pulpit in a Christian Church in a manner that makes it seem equal to Scripture - because it isn't Scripture. There is plenty of beautiful poetry and beautiful wisdom in the writings of the Old and New Testaments.

25 posted on 01/18/2010 5:52:22 AM PST by GCC Catholic (0bama, what are you hiding? Just show us the birth certificate...)
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To: Jack Black

As a former Presbyterian (PCUSA), I could tell you that the property is not owned by the church, but the Presbytery, which is the local organization of churches.


26 posted on 01/18/2010 5:55:13 AM PST by BelleAl
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To: GCC Catholic

I left my former church (PCUSA) for reasons such as this. I come to church to hear the Gospel, not other religious teaching. If I were interested in other religious teachings (which I am from an informational perspective), I would read a book or take a continuing education course. Churches are for leading people into a growing relationship with Jesus Christ — not making sure they understand Buddhism.

This is why “mainline” churches are dwindling. They have lost sight of their mission.


27 posted on 01/18/2010 6:01:54 AM PST by BelleAl
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To: ktscarlett66

“I didn’t feel that way when I went to church. Listening to sermons, it felt pretty useless to try. I’m not sure that’s how you should feel when you go to church.”

I don’t mean to be glib here and I know this question could be taken that way. I mean it as a serious question. Useless to try what?


28 posted on 01/18/2010 6:07:19 AM PST by ModelBreaker
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To: hiho hiho

I didn’t leave my church, it left me.

The sermon on global warming & saving the poor dying polar bears did it for me.


29 posted on 01/18/2010 6:17:21 AM PST by KosmicKitty (WARNING: Hormonally crazed woman ahead!!)
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To: Jack Black

Holy Rosary, not far from downtown Portland, packs ‘em in pretty good.

But it’s not watered-down, liberal Christianity, which is what you find at these dying congregations.


30 posted on 01/18/2010 6:41:25 AM PST by B Knotts (Calvin Coolidge Republican)
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To: hiho hiho

“She and Grant talk about believing in a divine being, and exploring their own version of spirituality, combining elements of Wicca, Buddhism and other religions they have studied.”

Why not worship Zero, your true god?

When liberalism starts creeping in, it affects everything just like a runaway cancer.

This is very sad but is representative of why many parts of Western Civilization is dying. Recognizing that is the first step to turning things around.


31 posted on 01/18/2010 6:51:28 AM PST by SharpRightTurn (White, black, and red all over--America's affirmative action, metrosexual president.)
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To: Jack Black
Except the article is about a church in Portland. What happens when you call bingo but you have the wrong spot marked? :-)

lol. You're right. Who'd think there would be two Eastminster Presbyterian Churches?

Here ya go:

http://www.eastminsterpdx.org/

32 posted on 01/18/2010 7:41:39 AM PST by Fido969 ("The hardest thing in the world to understand is income tax." - Albert Einstein)
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To: ktscarlett66

Try a Southern Baptist church. There are many, many ex-Presbyterians who have joined, including myself.


33 posted on 01/18/2010 8:13:34 AM PST by texmexis best
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To: hiho hiho

Read by a sodomite.


34 posted on 01/18/2010 8:20:46 AM PST by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: Tainan

Buddhism is not a religion per se. It is more of a philosophy.

I would not welcome Buddhist readings in my church, neither Islamic nor Hindu. If one wants to understand the differences and such, there are plaenty of books to read, those ‘teachings’ do not belong in Christian worship.

Similarly, I ‘ll warrant that in your local mosque, not only would proclaiming Jesus to be the Son of God and the Saviour of mankind not be appreciated, it might be met with physical ‘resistance’. If a ‘philosophy’ wants to also discuss Christ, I say more power to them. But non-Christ teachings do not belong in church.


35 posted on 01/18/2010 8:21:50 AM PST by RoadGumby (For God so loved the world)
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To: x_plus_one; Tainan
Heron has also introduced a much more progressive, and liberal form of Christianity to Eastminster, and has found his ideas welcomed.

By whom?

Yup. Clearly they weren't able to recruit new members to their church, and the lame preaching may be part of the reason. You'll note that churches with dynamic preachers and vigorous instruction in the Scripture rarely have any trouble attracting parishioners. The churches near me that preach the Gospel have jammed parking lots for numerous services and have to keep building larger and larger facilities to accommodate the crowds that demand to hear the Word.

Buddhism may have wisdom to impart to us, but people who come to church, particularly older people, are probably going to the trouble to come out on a Sunday morning because they want some direction on how to grow closer to the Lord our God. Buddhism by its very nature is not going to teach that. Neither will material from children's books. You, Tainan, may like to hear these things, and that's your right, but it's evident that this church died because only a few people liked what they were hearing and learning there.

36 posted on 01/18/2010 8:41:43 AM PST by ottbmare (I could agree wth you, but then we'd both be wrong.)
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To: Fido969

http://www.eastminsterpdx.org/

I just went to their site and looked at one of their sermons from last year. There were no references to any Bible scriptures. The pastor mentioned Jesus once in passing. And the majority of the sermon was about current political events. People don’t go to church for that. They go (or should go) to hear God’s word preached. These liberal churches are dying because the people are flocking to real churches where God’s word is preached.


37 posted on 01/18/2010 9:40:08 AM PST by Trick or Treat (Palin/Bachmann 2012!)
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To: lurk
Where are the people? At the contemporary church, where they have a rockin’ good time in the song portion of worship and a message that hits hard with truth and hope.

You mean the one with no doctrine that sings five contemporary feel good worship songs, followed by a sermon from the celebrity Pastor that makes the congregation feel great about themselves.

38 posted on 01/18/2010 1:39:03 PM PST by Archie Bunker on steroids (Mugabi will look like Reagan when this thing is over with)
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To: ottbmare; RoadGumby
"You, Tainan, may like to hear these things,..."

I might suggest you re-read my comment and try, again, to understand what I was saying.
I am a Christian. Born and raised in a Christian environment. I make no claim to be otherwise. And yes, I do like to hear, discuss and learn about the belief systems of those who follow a different path than I do. Whether they be Buddhist, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian or...the ambiguous path of the Unitarian(which completely baffles me in its...nothingness).
I might add, humbly, I am a poor Christian and continually seek to do & be a better one.

As to Buddhism being a "religion" or a "philosophy", I will grant that while their may be a semantic argument to be pursued on this distinction, for those involved it is indeed their 'religion.' Perhaps more accurately it can be said to be their 'Dao' or 'way' for their life.
The precepts presented affect not only their inner world but their manner of conduct in their outward life. Same as Christianity.
(I, personally, do not consider Islam to be a religion - IMO it is a political and social concept(poor word - its early for me)).

I believe in the fundamentals of Bible interpretation and the power of God as manifested in his Son who we know as Jesus Christ, and a few other names. His message is one of love, compassion and obedience to his and his Fathers words.
Pardon me for going off track with a personal witness...I hope you will understand...;-)
39 posted on 01/18/2010 4:50:35 PM PST by Tainan (Cogito, ergo conservatus)
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To: Tainan

No harm or foul on you r witness, we all should be doing that, as well as we can, in ways Christ would.

The article was about the spreading or teaching or reading of alternative ‘faiths’ in a ‘Christian’ church. That is just not a good thing at all, seems to me, that would more than constitute a ‘luke warm’ church, which Christ says (in Revelation) makes Him want to vomit it from His mouth.

Church should be for preaching the Gospel and Christ. Not giving equal time to other religions or philosphies that lead people to Hell. Buddhism is great, as long as you are willing to go to Hell believing in it. As is Islam, or Hinduism or Gaia worship or Wicca. Pick your poison.


40 posted on 01/19/2010 12:01:37 PM PST by RoadGumby (For God so loved the world)
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To: ModelBreaker

Apparently it’s preordained as to whether we’re going to heaven or hell. So I needn’t bother. I can just have wicked fun either way, my fate is out of my hands. So I may as well whoop it up. ;)

Actually, my religious beliefs have doth suffered a sea change, into something rich and strange. I am perfectly happy with where I am in relation to God.


41 posted on 01/22/2010 3:13:41 PM PST by ktscarlett66 (Face it girls....I'm older and I have more insurance....)
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To: hiho hiho

ELCA in Everett, WA - the guy quoted from an Anne Rice novel (Road to Canaan). The two liberal pastors there are always quoting Wobegon or some other crap piece of fiction, the intern they have is quoting scripture.

The guy quoting from Anne Rice was a guest preacher. He’s got a PhD I guess and spoke about the Jesus’ first miracle. He called out Pat Robertson as a heretic, then had the temerity to MENTION the ELCA decision on human sexuality, and then WHIFFED ON IT!!

He said its not the job of lutheran colleges to TAKE A POSITION ON SUCH MATTERS. So, if you are keeping score - Pat Robertson - heretic. ELCA for turning homosexuality into another of God’s consecrated forms of marriage? - No comment.

Guy was a winner.


42 posted on 01/22/2010 3:19:28 PM PST by RinaseaofDs
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To: ktscarlett66

“Apparently it’s preordained as to whether we’re going to heaven or hell. So I needn’t bother. I can just have wicked fun either way, my fate is out of my hands. So I may as well whoop it up. ;)”

I generally regard that as a bad idea; although the thought does cross my mind. The biblical support for predestination is pretty spotty.

“Actually, my religious beliefs have doth suffered a sea change, into something rich and strange. I am perfectly happy with where I am in relation to God.”

Question for all of us is: Is God happy with where we are?

Thanks for letting me post Christian stuff without getting all crabby at me. :) God bless.


43 posted on 01/22/2010 3:34:34 PM PST by ModelBreaker
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