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Scribes recorded Prophet's 'crooked, broken language'
Mormon Times ^ | Jan. 26, 2010 | Nick Newman

Posted on 01/26/2010 2:40:31 PM PST by Colofornian

Joseph Smith was a terrible writer.

While that statement might sound foreign to members, considering his testimony and revelations have been spread around the world in more than 160 languages, it should come as no surprise when you realize the Prophet had no more than a third-grade education.

"We can't underestimate the significance of all these scribes," said Alex Baugh, professor of church history and doctrine at Brigham Young University. "Their contributions are incalculable."

Why did the Prophet call the men he did to transcribe his largely oral revelations? The answer to that question depends on whom you ask.

SNIP

Despite their contributions, the Prophet said the one thing that hampered the keeping of his history was that so many of his scribes fell away or died. The list is saddening: Whitmer, Rigdon, Parrish and Robinson all left the church, never to return. Cowdery, Williams and Phelps were excommunicated, but came into full fellowship. Hyde was disfellowshipped for a time. Mulholland and Thompson died in Illinois.

Whitmer even took some of the documents with him on the way out of the church.

Only Richards, Bullock and Clayton stayed in the church the whole time.

(Excerpt) Read more at mormontimes.com ...


TOPICS: History; Other Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: antimormonthread; christian; josephsmith; lds; mormon; restoration; restoredgospel; scribes; scripture
From the article: ...so many of his scribes fell away or died. The list is saddening: Whitmer, Rigdon, Parrish and Robinson all left the church, never to return. Cowdery, Williams and Phelps were excommunicated, but came into full fellowship. Hyde was disfellowshipped for a time. Mulholland and Thompson died in Illinois. Whitmer even took some of the documents with him on the way out of the church. Only Richards, Bullock and Clayton stayed in the church the whole time.

Indeed. Over half of those who worked closest with Smith and got to know him best either apostatized, were ex-communicated or were disfellowshipped (8 of the above-mentioned 14). I think that says more about Smith than about his employees, doncha think?

From the article: So how could an uneducated New England farm boy bring to pass a work...a mere...2 percent -- are in the prophet's own handwriting.

Ah yes, the writer answers his own question. Smith brought it to pass 'cause so little of it was solely his own. Except for the tale-telling...even Joe's mom said he has a great knack for telling details of historic unknown cultures even at age 17. As many from previous centuries have proved, education has zilcho to do with yarn-tellin'.

(Besides, we know Muhammad was illiterate...yet look at the size of Koran/Quran...he had a lot of 'jinn' help)

1 posted on 01/26/2010 2:40:32 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Crooked? Yeah, I’d have to agree with that!


2 posted on 01/26/2010 2:59:12 PM PST by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
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To: Colofornian

Don’t these constant attacks get boring ? Did some Mormon run over your cat or something ?


3 posted on 01/26/2010 3:01:08 PM PST by jimt
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To: jimt
Photobucket
4 posted on 01/26/2010 3:05:49 PM PST by ZX12R
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To: jimt
 
Don’t these constant attacks get boring ?
 
Yup; they SURE do!!!

 
 The LDS Organization® prints Hundreds of Thousands of THIS yearly!

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/17#17

  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
 
 
The LDS headquarters; in the heart of a modern  US city, visited by THOUSANDS daily, has this placed in prominent view:
 
 
...which reiterates the charge that "they were all wrong; they teach for doctrines the commandments of men".

5 posted on 01/26/2010 3:09:01 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: jimt

If you don’t like it, don’t read it.


6 posted on 01/26/2010 3:59:31 PM PST by svcw (Ellie and Mark come out come out where ever you are.....)
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To: Colofornian

Colofornian ...

...why are you so petty against a religion that includes 1.5% of the population of the USA?

...your postings are actually more revealing about yourself as a Religious Bigot, than damaging to the LDS church.

.... we get it allready, If modern sensitivities allowed you would be in the front ranks to murder Joseph Smith anew. OK your heart is filled with an unchristian hate ... is that going to get you into heaven? .... not by my understanding.


7 posted on 01/26/2010 4:01:21 PM PST by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country)
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To: colorcountry

...funny though, inspite of those scribes leaving the church, all of them testified on thier deathbed that they believed Joseph Smith to be a prophet of God .... bet that isn’t discussed in your anti-mormon handbook!


8 posted on 01/26/2010 4:05:30 PM PST by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country)
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To: teppe; Elsie
#1...the info originating in this thread started w/the Mormon Times. If you don't like the fact that they pointed out in today's paper that 8 of 14 Mormon scribes abandoned the church, were ex-communicated, or disfellowshipped, please take it up with the publisher of that paper (your church).

#2 As Elsie has already displayed, the Mormon church is quite intolerant of all other churches:
They claim they're the "ONLY" true church town (= all others are false)
They claim the rest of us are "apostates" (not much different than Muslims calling Christians "infidels" now is it?...wonder if the same spirit who appeared to Muhammaded appeared to Smith?)
They claim, citing the Book of Mormon (1 Nephi 14:10), that there's really only 2 churches -- their's & the rest -- the rest being the "church of the devil." [Please let me know if you interpret 1 Nephi 14:10 anyway different than that]
If you believe in the Lds "scripture" Elsie cited in post #5, that would mean you deem our churches to be not worth joining...that we're faithless heart-drifters from God...that our professors are "corrupt"...and that zilcho of our creeds honor God -- for Smith claimed there that they were ALL (100%) an "abomination to God."

Now, do you really want to explain Teppe, how any of these statements convey a spirit of "toleration?" What's more, I've been saying these things on a number of threads for a few years. Smith said these things going back to the 1830s!!! By the mid-1870s, the Lds church decided to enshrine these words as "scripture." And ever since, the Lds church has published them into over 100 languages, put it out online to millions of visitors, and have sent out literally over 1 million missionaries proclaiming these same things.

And you get up-tight over a single poster's online threads?

Are you a Mormon tither?
Does your $ go into republishing the Pearl of Great Price -- what Elsie cited in post #5?
Have you ever served on an Lds mission?
If so, did you talk about the so-called "universal apostasy" of all Christians?
Do you believe Joseph Smith - History vv. 18-21 in the Pearl of Great Price? Yes? No?

If we have a series of "yes" answers to those questions, who are you to talk about bigotry & intolerance? Your "scriptures" write off ALL of our Christian "professors" as "corrupt."

If I had an opportunity to talk to Smith, I'd say the same things I'm saying to you...just would be even more direct.

9 posted on 01/26/2010 4:19:35 PM PST by Colofornian (We don't need Soilent Greeners in office!!!)
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To: teppe
all of them testified on thier deathbed that they believed Joseph Smith to be a prophet of God

Really? Who told you that. Let me guess, a Mormon or is it the "official" story as released by the LDS machine.... LOL

10 posted on 01/26/2010 4:29:32 PM PST by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
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To: teppe
all of them testified on thier deathbed that they believed Joseph Smith to be a prophet of God

Really? Who told you that. Let me guess, a Mormon or is it the "official" story as released by the LDS machine.... LOL

11 posted on 01/26/2010 4:29:43 PM PST by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
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To: teppe

The Mormon Church, claims Cowdery came back to the church. But, if he did, he must have left again, because when he died he was buried by a Methodist minister in Richmond, Missouri.

David Whitmer, still believing in the Book of Mormon (probably because of the many Biblical passages in it), became a member of the Church of Christ and died rejecting the LDS Church.

Martin Harris joined Anna Lee’s church, the Shakers, saying that his testimony of Shakerism was greater than that of the Book of Mormon. Although later in life he came back to the Mormon Church and took out his temple endowments, he admitted it was just to find out “what was going on in there.”

Interestingly, as often happens with time and celebrity status, there are accounts in the witnesses’ later years, where they greatly enlarged their testimony. They are quoted as giving very different and exaggerated accounts— much different than during their earlier years. Fawn Brodie notes, in No Man Knows My History, that David Whitmer’s testimony, given 49 years later, was too “richly embellished”. Whitmer added a long list of things he supposedly saw, which were not mentioned in his earlier account:

the brass plates, the plates of the book of Ether ., . . a table with many records or plates upon it . . . also the Sword of Laban, the directors - i.e., the ball which Lehi had, and the Interpreters.”

Martin Harris, in the last five years of his life, also gave an extraordinary testimony.

Considering that the witnesses admitted years earlier to seeing the plates in a “vision” or “entranced state,” rather than as a physical reality, one must conclude that the embellishments of their testimony in later years was received in the same manner.

Their motive? Mormon writer Richard L. Anderson says, “Martin Harris, like all the witnesses, was especially desirous at the end of his life to have people hear and repeat his testimony.” Why not? By that time, they had become celebrities!

There are several possible reasons the three witnesses didn’t publicly recant their testimony of the plates.

They may have retained a special feeling for the Book of Mormon because of its many Biblical passages.

· Since their declaration is stated in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, they would not only be guilty of perjury, but their credibility would be suspect the rest of their life.

· They would look pretty silly telling people that what they testified to and allowed to appear in print, really didn’t happen.

· They began to enjoy their celebrity status and, so, in time, embellished their story.

http://www.janishutchinson.com/threewit.html


12 posted on 01/26/2010 5:13:33 PM PST by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
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To: colorcountry

Let us never forget the example of Sidney Rigdon, doomed to die a complete failure in Pittsburgh.


13 posted on 01/26/2010 5:39:01 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: jimt

If you can't argue against the truth, attack the source, or change the subject?

14 posted on 01/26/2010 5:44:04 PM PST by delacoert
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To: jimt

Thanks for bumping the thread jimt|!


15 posted on 01/26/2010 6:18:49 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: teppe

Why don’t you reply to posts to you instead of changing the subject? Folks have posted questions and replies to your posts, yet you take the tact of obfuscation and deflection.

Attack the messenger? Is this the new tactic of lds apologists?

Posted to you by an apostate, who, according to mormon teachings is “doomed to outer darkness”. Am I a bigot for questioning what I was taught and eventually learned? If so, you have a tough road to hoe pal. For there are many more like me who are beginning to speak up and out against what your religion teaches. You can’t squelch the growing rumble of “antis” now that the internet is upon you.

In regards to “hate”, folks who were lied to have a reason to feel a certain level of emotion regarding the many fallacies of lds teachings they fell for. I “hate” the fact that I was stupid and ignorant enough to be drawn into something that is totally and utterly false. I “hate” the fact that I wasted years of my life believing in something that took me down a path of futility.

I “hate” the fact that now that I know the TRUTH, I have to teach my family that same truth in order to ensure their salvation. It would of been oh so much easier had I remained a non-member and resisted the wishes of my wife in allowing our son to be raised in the church.

So, according to you, since I’m a “hater”, I guess I’m again doomed to some purgatory. If so, then I guess I’ll take my chances being judged by Jesus as opposed to Joseph Smith. I need to find a third way to end up in some type of outer darkness, I’m looking for a trifecta.

SZ


16 posted on 01/26/2010 7:37:22 PM PST by SZonian (I see people everywhere who claim they are victims of "hatred".)
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To: teppe; Colofornian
"OK your heart is filled with an unchristian hate..."

BTW, Attributing motives is against FR rules. You would do well to remember that in your judgemental posts. I guess when you're taught that you're going to be a god someday, you start learning how to judge at an early age.

I see it was Colofornian who took the high road and elected not to bring the RM into the fray.

SZ

17 posted on 01/26/2010 7:40:26 PM PST by SZonian (I see people everywhere who claim they are victims of "hatred".)
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To: Colofornian

LDS prophet = profit

from a humor blog: (THIS IS A JOKE)

At a meeting requested by Regional Representative Archibald K. Yost, the Church asked for sensitivity on the part of Postmormons when speaking of the President of the Church. Specifically, Yost stated that Mormons take umbrage to the frequent use of the pejorative, “the Profit” when speaking of the Church’s President.

Said Yost, “There is no ‘f’ in ‘Prophet’.”

http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/peepstone/full_text/church_authorities_postmormons_find_common_ground/


18 posted on 01/26/2010 10:20:46 PM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
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To: teppe
...why are you so petty against a religion that includes 1.5% of the population of the USA?

PETTY?

HA HA ha!

What is it aboutMormon QUOTES that so rile certain folks?


...your postings are actually more revealing about yourself as a Religious Bigot, than damaging to the LDS church.

Time will tell...


If modern sensitivities allowed you would be in the front ranks to murder Joseph Smith anew.

Take your mindreading act on the road; Dude!

Vegas would LOVE it!!

19 posted on 01/27/2010 6:00:39 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: colorcountry
 
DAMN you and all your FACTS!
 
Thee makes me mad enough to SPIT!)

20 posted on 01/27/2010 6:02:41 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian; SZonian; Elsie; Godzilla; colorcountry; teppe; Alan2; Normandy; urroner; Logophile; ...
From the Mormon Times' article: Joseph Smith was a terrible writer.

Yes, indeed. To such an extent, Smith not only needed a lot of scribes, but a LOT of editors through the generations! (And in many ways, his scribes were the "pre-editors" who kept what he dictated from coming out even worse!)

The BIGGEST impact all of these edits have had is that they clearly help erase the obviousness of the original text that a portion of the Book of Mormon was written by an uneducated, grammar-challenged bumpkin -- in which suddenly phrases stolen word-for-word out of the King James Bible stand out in major contrast.

The obviousness of this contrast is greatly diluted by the perhaps hundreds of Book of Mormon editors of what Joseph Smith called "the most correct book on earth."

With the Bible, you have Hebrew & Greek and distinct interpretations of phrasing and even meaning on some things (though not major doctrinal issues)...with the Book of Mormon, they have no original gold-plated text -- therefore they've had no excuses for doing any editing -- especially any editing when you don't know who the editors are and why they've changed something.

So, here we have the pure majesty of the KJ Version of the prophet Isaiah's words all throughout a book in the Book of Mormon like 2 Nephi. (That's the "mountaintop" portion of 2 Nephi). The grammatical "gutter" portion of 2 Nephi is when Joseph Smith speaks forth out of supposed "poetic license":
2 Nephi 4:14: "for a more history part are written upon mine other plates" ["more history part"??]
2 Nephi 27:13: Colleen Ralson of Watchman Fellowship: First is says "none" and then it says "a few." A few is not none. Which does he mean? (Ralson, Color Me Confused, p. 20, 1988)
2 Nephi 30:18: Ralson: Here it states "no more, for a long time." This is a stupid statement. Is it no more or is it a long time?
2 Nephi 31:2: Ralson: The words "save it be a few words..." are really funny when you examine 4 Nephi 1:6, where it takes the author 57 words to say 59 years past.
2 Nephi 31:3: "he speaketh unto men according to their language." Ralson: Why then were they to write in reformed Egyptian? They probably did not understand it and surely the ones who would receive the plates would not understand it, either.

Now that you've viewed the grammatical "gutter" writing of Joseph Smith, all you have to do is stay in the same book -- 2 Nephi -- to see all the majestic writing!!! And how does that happen? Well, Smith plagiarizes 15 chapters, word-for-word, from the book of Isaiah in the Bible!!! (Chapters 1-->14 and 29). So, compare the above verses to Isaiah's KJ translation -- and you'll see that the Inspirer who inspired Isaiah is not the Inspirer who inspired the writer of 2 Nephi!!!

Smith's plagiarism:
2 Nephi 7 --> a copy of Isaiah 50
2 Nephi 8 --> a copy of Isaiah 51 [Ralson notes: "even italicized words that were added later to the King James Version for clarification, are found here"]
2 Nephi 12 --> a copy of Isaiah 2
2 Nephi 13 --> a copy of Isaiah 3
2 Nephi 14 --> a copy of Isaiah 4
2 Nephi 15 --> a copy of Isaiah 5
2 Nephi 16 --> a copy of Isaiah 6
2 Nephi 17 --> a copy of Isaiah 7
2 Nephi 18 --> a copy of Isaiah 8
2 Nephi 19 --> a copy of Isaiah 9
2 Nephi 20 --> a copy of Isaiah 10
2 Nephi 21 --> a copy of Isaiah 11
2 Nephi 22 --> a copy of Isaiah 12
2 Nephi 23 --> a copy of Isaiah 13 [and please note...that the italicized words of Isaiah 13, KJ Version during Joseph Smith's day, were not in the original Hebrew from which the KJV was translated...So if they weren't in the Hebrew, how did Nephi get them? Did he reach into the future of 1611 in the UK, and superimpose them into golden plates between 559 and 545 BC?]
2 Nephi 24 --> a copy of Isaiah 14
2 Nephi 27 --> a copy of Isaiah 29

21 posted on 01/27/2010 7:26:18 AM PST by Colofornian (We don't need Soilent Greeners in office!!!)
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To: Colofornian

Popcorn...Check


22 posted on 01/27/2010 7:38:27 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: colorcountry

Where Christians would call on Jesus on their deathbed, Brigham Young called on Joey Smith to help him...

To each his own savior at the moment of death...


23 posted on 01/27/2010 7:41:14 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Elsie

I LOVE your font. Very ingenious!


24 posted on 01/27/2010 7:41:53 AM PST by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
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To: SZonian; teppe
I am another apostate Mormon and I sympathize with you and the chore that you are faced with in teaching your family about the true nature of God.

I mourn for my family....the family of my birth, who were taught for generations that they too would become gods, that they were blessed to be born into the mormon cult because they were very valiant in the pre-existence when we dwelled with a “god” who was once a man, but by obedience finally became our father-god and sent our brother-god Jesus Christ to die so that universal eternal life would be given to all, good or bad, believers or non-believers. My family and ancestors believed that they were part of the straight and narrow followers of Joseph Smith who could mate with many wives, and have many dozens of children who would expand their empire-kingdom in the life to come.

Now it is my chore, to teach my family, the meaning of words like; God, the Son, Savior, Grace, Eternal Life, Kingdom. Those very words were hijacked and given new meaning by the cult that has enslaved my family since 1838. Yes, I truly hate a cult that hijacks the very gift that Christ died to give us. I love the Mormon people enough to reach out to them in love and show them the deceptions of their "prophets," and how they are enslaved to a non-christian sect. I pray that they will come to Christ, but in reality, on He knows. He has asked me to spread the Gospel, the Good News of salvation and eternal life, right now, in Him.

25 posted on 01/27/2010 7:58:20 AM PST by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
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To: colorcountry

My wife and son, devout mormons, could not answer this question: “What is the work of God?”

For me it just shows how the lds teachings don’t even cover the basics. I suppose when one is searching out the truth as opposed to being spoonfed doctrine, one will find it.

I look at it as a form of welfare, if you keep getting something given to you, you don’t start looking for ways to improve your current situation, you just accept what you’re given. The lds would fall into that category. They just blindly accept what they’re told, because, afterall, they’re not to question their “prophets” even if they’re wrong.

I have to tread very lightly when discussing theology, what little I know of it. When one is so heavily invested in something emotionally, it’s hard to hear an opposing point of view which sheds the light of truth upon what you claim to believe.

SZ


26 posted on 01/27/2010 9:34:53 AM PST by SZonian (I see people everywhere who claim they are victims of "hatred".)
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To: Colofornian

A particularly excellent point, clearly made, and scathing in its indictment of Joseph Smith’s utter lack of honesty and originality, as well as his willful omission of proper attribution.

With character like his to found a church, who needs Mohammad, Charles Taze Russell, or L. Ron Hubbard?!

A.A.C.


27 posted on 01/27/2010 11:26:32 AM PST by AmericanArchConservative (Armour on, Lances high, Swords out, Bows drawn, Shields front ... Eagles UP!)
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To: colorcountry
Aw...

Shucks...

http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss354/elsieel/ColorCountry.gif


28 posted on 01/27/2010 6:06:33 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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