Skip to comments.The gospel in words: 'Worship' [Worship Christ? Lds - Open]
Posted on 01/28/2010 5:02:59 AM PST by Colofornian
"And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him." (3 Nephi 11:17)
The Old Testament word usually translated as "worship" has a sense of to depress, as in to prostrate, especially in homage to royalty or God; to bow down; to stoop; to fall down flat.
The New Testament word is essentially the same, with the added sense of reverence and adoration.
In English, the word "worship" means to honor or adore as divine or sacred, especially with rituals or ceremonies; to offer prayers to God; to regard with extreme respect, devotion or love; to idolize; to regard or treat a person with honor or respect, specifically, to bow down or salute (Oxford English Dictionary).
There are two aspects of worship. First, there is the more formal sense of worship, such as sacrament meetings, public prayers and temple worship. The second aspect is our own personal attitude of worship. Of course, the two are intimately linked.
Simply sitting in a worship service without a personal attitude of worship is not worship.
It is in this more personal sense that the elements of "to fall down," "to prostrate oneself" or "bow down" become more instructive. Paul, in speaking of spiritual gifts, notes that "so falling down on his face he will worship God" (1 Corinthians 14:25).
Most of the scriptural uses of worship have this sense of personal submission to the divine.
In its deepest sense, worship means the surrender of our will to God's will. We are taught "that the right way is to believe in Christ ... wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul" (2 Nephi 25:29).
The scriptures also admonish us what not to worship. Isaiah teaches that people have turned away from God when their "land is also full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made" (Isaiah 2:8).
President Gordon B. Hinckley captured the highest sense of worship when he taught about the Savior:
"He is the Savior and the Redeemer of the world. I believe in Him. I love Him. I speak His name in reverence and wonder. I worship Him as I worship His Father, in spirit and in truth. I thank Him and kneel before His wounded feet and hands and side, amazed at the love He offers me" (Liahona, March 1998).
Now Who is to receive this "worship...with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul" per this Lds writer & Book of Mormon? (Jesus Christ)
This writer reiterates it by citing an Lds "prophet" --President Gordon B. Hinckley: "He is the Savior and the Redeemer of the world. I believe in Him. I love Him. I speak His name in reverence and wonder. I worship Him as I worship His Father, in spirit and in truth. I thank Him and kneel before His wounded feet and hands and side, amazed at the love He offers me" (Liahona, March 1998).
But what do Mormons do when their "prophets" (like Hinckley) and their "scriptures" (like 2 Nephi 25:29) are in conflict with their "apostles" (like Bruce R. McConkie?). What happens when their leaders convey an "uncertain trumpet" of worship? ["For if the trumpet gave an uncertain sound, who would prepare himself for war?" (1 Cor. 14:8)]
Now, granted, once upon a time, Lds apostle McConkie was on board this worship-of-Christ thing:
How many (true) gods are worshiped according to this LDS apostle's "Mormon Doctrine" 1966 book? (Three according to the Mormon definition of Heavenly Father and Jesus and the Holy Ghost being three separate gods): "Three separate personages--the Father, Son and Holy Ghost--comprise the Godhead...To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only gods we worship." (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 567-577, 1966 edition)
Oh, wait a minute. (I should have kept reading). McConkie, on p. 848, only emphasizes worshiping two gods: "The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship....No one can worship the Father without also worshiping the Son....It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son" (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 848).
Oh, wait. By 1982, McConkie changes his mind upon giving a special devo @ BYU almost 28 years ago (March 2, 1982, "Our Relationship with the Lord.") Essentially, McConkie wasn't happy with either his "3" god or "2" god worship. So he came up with a kind of 1 1/2-god worship to present to BYU students:
We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.
In worship, our focus is Jesus Christ. In this Mormon apostle's supposed "devotion" to his distinct "jesus christ," McConkie wrapped up that 1982 devo seemingly focused on himself...all right after he just told these students NOT to seek a special intimate relationship with Jesus:
There are yet others who have an excessive zeal which causes them to go beyond the mark. Their desire for excellence is inordinate. In an effort to be truer than true they devote themselves to gaining a special, personal relationship with Christ that is both improper and perilous. I say perilous because this course, particularly in the lives of some who are spiritually immature, is a gospel hobby which creates an unwholesome holier-than-thou attitude. In other instances it leads to despondency because the seeker after perfection knows he is not living the way he supposes he should. Another peril is that those so involved often begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed. In this connection a current and unwise book...advocates gaining a special relationship with Jesus...Now I know that some may be offended at the counsel that they should not strive for a special and personal relationship with Christ. It will seem to them as though I am speaking out against mother love, or Americanism, or the little red schoolhouse. But I am not. There is a fine line here over which true worshipers will not step.
When you are in a faith where your "prophets" and "apostles" can't even agree whether or not it's "OK" to pray directly to Christ, to have a personal relationship with Christ, and to worship Christ, then you know you have built a Haiti-like structure in a bad earthquake zone.
When you have "apostles" who write books called "Mormon Doctrine"...
...setting themselves up as the foremost authority on Lds doctrine...
...& Lds "prophets" prior to Hinckley ensured such works were closely reviewed in the 1966 versions & beyond...
...+ Lds bookstores carry it up & down their chains...
...then ya have to wonder @ Lds leaders' level of spiritual discernment if they never directly countermand the words of this Lds apostle...you know...the one who closes BYU "devotionals" with self-elevation:
"Now I sincerely hope that no one will imagine that I have in the slightest degree downgraded the Lord Jesus in the scheme of things. I have not done so. As far as I know there is not a man on earth who thinks more highly of him than I do. It just may be that I have preached more sermons, taught more doctrine, and written more words about the Lord Jesus Christ than any man now living. I have ten large volumes in print, seven of which deal almost entirely with Christ, and the other three with him and his doctrines."
Translation of McConkie: "Let's see, now. We worship the Father only...we pray to the Father only...we don't seek a special relationship with Jesus...Nope, no 'downgrade' of Christ in my mind, right? Why, in my humble opinion, I think more of Christ than any man alive! In fact, if I may be so modest, 'It just may be that I have preached more sermons, taught more doctrine, and written more words about the Lord Jesus Christ than any man now living.' Obviously, I've exported a lot of commentary on the man!"
It's time for grassroots Mormons to toss their general authorities overboard. 'Cause if they can't or won't oppose an "apostle" who tells impressionable BYU students that they aren't to worship Christ, pray directly to Him, or worship Him, then they don't have the best spiritual interests of their sheep at heart.
Disclaimer; I am not LDS.
“When you are in a faith where your “prophets” and “apostles” can’t even agree whether or not it’s “OK” to pray directly to Christ, to have a personal relationship with Christ, and to worship Christ, then you know you have built a Haiti-like structure in a bad earthquake zone.”
I have always been under the impression that LDS taught that Jesus was not “the Christ”, “God”, “God’s only begotten Son”.
C. S. Lewis;
I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: Im ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I dont accept His claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.
The “gospel in words” is clear: 1 Corinthians 15:1-8. See
Not the same Jesus
“There are those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints do not believe in the traditional Christ.
No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.
LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley (LDS Church News, June 20, 1998)
It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons. LDS publication, Ensign Magazine, May 1977, p. 26
I wonder how many posts it will be before you are accused of distorting the ldsers belief? (Even though you are quoting them directly.)
Planning to become a god who goes on to create worlds and have babies forever is the height of self-worship.
... I am LDS
The name of the “Mormon” Church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”
We Teach that “God the father is on the literal father of Jesus Christ, Jesus the Christ is the Litteral Son of God, and the Holy ghost is a personnage of Spirit, three distinct personages”.
If you pray to Christ rather than God the Father you are in direct violation of Christ’s teachings!
In every instance of prayer, Christ taught us to pray to the Father!
It is your reliance on a 4th Century document known as the Nicene Creed which defines your version of God that keeps you from understanding the true nature of the relationship between God and Christ
Californian, you are a Religious Bigot (Latter-Day Pharasee).
You should remove that 2x4 in your own eye, before you try to remove the sliver in mine.
First purge your own religion of your non-scriptural reliance on the Nicene, Apostolic and Athenasian Creeds for your own definition of the Godhead, before you worry about our doctrine.
Then if you are a true Christian, you will seek truth rather than distortion.
Okay, teppe, your post is a cause of offense.
I serve the Patriarchate of Antioch (you may recall Antioch, where the disciples were first called ‘Christians’) as a lowly subdeacon.
If anyone has dibs on who gets to be called “Christians” it’s us Antiochian Orthodox. The Nicene Creed has been the normative statement of the Christian faith from before the Scriptures were collected and canonized, and was set forth by the same authority that fixed the canon of Scripture: an Ecumenical Council of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. If you deny its contents, it is you who are not a Christian, however fond you are of your on interpretation of the Church’s books.
When I read stuff like yours, I come more and more to the view of Tertullian, that heretics have no right to cite the Scriptures, which are the Church’s books, against the Church’s teachings.
Mormonism teachs three separate 'gods', part of a pantheon of 'gods', in short - polytheism. This is further borne out by the greek mythologic procreation of Jesus - heavenly father coming down and having sex with mary, a mortal. Your own definitions violate the requirements for godhood as you cite that the Holy Spirit is a personage of 'spirit' - smith taught gods had physical bodies.
It is your reliance on a 4th Century document known as the Nicene Creed which defines your version of God that keeps you from understanding the true nature of the relationship between God and Christ
Those creeds are founded solidly upon the bible. Your reliance is upon a fraud and a swindler - joseph smith - and upon a 19th century work of fiction that smith attempted to sell the copywrite to - the bom. Furthermore, understanding of the true nature of the relationship between the Father and the Son is obscured by the desire to become a 'god' as well.
Yep, seek out the truth tepid
The bom lies about the history of the western hemisphere
Smith lies about his ability to 'translate'
smith lied about his practice of polygamy
smith lied about the source of his 'revelation'
seek the truth tepid.
Vanilla Swirl, Teppe can't even make this case based upon his own Latter-day 'scripture'!!!
Here he claims that it's a "direct violation of Christ's teachings" and "in every instance of prayer, Christ taught us to pray to the Father" yet Mormons are so deceived because of what their leaders have force-fed them, they often don't even know their own Book of Mormon teaches on this subject!
If praying directly to Jesus was indeed "perilous" as McConkie claimed, then please tell us, Teppe, why Stephen, when in peril of death, prayed directly to Jesus? ...saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. (Acts 7:59)
If praying directly to Jesus was indeed "plain sectarian nonsense" as McConkie claimed, then why did Book of Mormon disciples repeatedly directly pray to Jesus?
3 Nephi 19:7
Then again in 3 Nephi 19:18
Then again in 3 Nephi 19:24
Then they thought that wasn't enough direct prayer to Jesus. So "he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him." (3 Nephi 19:24)
And what? The Mormon Jesus condemned them for praying directly unto him? (No!) "And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him" (3 Nephi 19:25)
Did the Mormon Jesus tell them it was "plain sectarian nonsense" to keep praying directly to Him? (No!) "And Jesus said unto them: Pray on; nevertheless they not cease to pray." (3 Nephi 19:26)
So, these Nephite disciples apparently "prayed without ceasing" to the Mormon Jesus. Yet McConkie didn't like that some BYU students were emulating that, and told them in 1982:
I am well aware that some who have prayed for endless hours feel they have a special and personal relationship with Christ that they never had before. I wonder if this is any or much different, however, from the feelings of fanatical sectarians who with glassy eyes and fiery tongues assure us they have been saved by grace and are assured of a place with the Lord in a heavenly abode, when in fact they have never even received the fullness of the gospel. I wonder if it is not part of Lucifer's system to make people feel they are special friends of Jesus when in fact they are not following the normal and usual pattern of worship found in the true Church. Let me remind you to stay in the course charted by the Church. It is the Lord's Church, and he will not permit it to be led astray. If we take the counsel that comes from the prophets and seers we will pursue the course that is pleasing to the Lord. Would it be amiss if I reminded you that Jesus maintained a reserve between him and his disciples and that he did not allow them the same intimacy with him that they had with each other.
Your name-calling of Christians, Teppe, & McConkie's ("fanatical sectarians...part of Lucifer's system") seems to be similar. Are you buds?
I'll ask the Q, anyway, and I don't expect a retraction from you (or any Mormon, for that matter, FReeper Mormons seem to slink away vs. showing any true attitude of repentance when their posts are proved wrong)...but to be consistent with what you say on this post:
Does 3 Nephi 19 violate Christ's teachings?
Does Acts 7:59 violate Christ's teachings?
How can "every instance" somehow leave out these passages?
What? Have you taken scissors to these references & they're no longer part of your 'quad'?
VS, Mormons will say that Jesus is "the Christ" but they tend to downplay His uniqueness. In effect,the Mormon jesus is "a" son of god, but so are we. (We're all "sons of god" from the pre-existence...he just was spiritually born first...so the Mormon jesus is your elder brother...but Lucifer was likewise born pre-mortally before you, so Lucifer is supposedly another "elder brother" to Mormons).
I have always been under the impression that LDS taught that Jesus was not...God...
Well, this is where it gets very dicey for Mormons, 'cause here's where they speak out of both sides of their mouth. They like to present themselves as monotheistic Christians, but in fact are polytheistic Mormons. They'll say, "Well Jesus is part of the Godhead" -- their version of sounding as "trinitarian" as possible minus being trinitarian. But when you ask them direct questions, or look @ their lit, you see they concede that they think of Jesus as a "second" god.
Now that presents a real contradiction when they start studying both the Bible and even the Book of Mormon. Why is that?
Well, Thomas calls Jesus his God in John 20:28; even the Nephite disciples likewise called Jesus their Lord and God (3 Nephi 19:18) [You can see from my last post & Teppe's last post, though, that most Mormons seem to steer clear of 3 Nephi 19]. But Lds are without excuse, 'cause "Jesus is God" is actually even found in several other Book of Mormon passages as well:
2 Nephi 10:3;
2 Nephi 11:7;
And three passages clearly say that Jesus Is the eternal God (2 Nephi 31:21; 2 Nephi 26:12; Alma 11:38-39, 44)
Another Mormon "scripture" -- Doctrines & Covenants -- says Jesus is God in several places (19:4; 38:1-3; 62:1; etc.) Since theres only one true God in the bible and in the LDS scriptures (for example, Pearl of Great Price says "no God besides me" (1:6), either Jesus is a false god or the one true God. As Jesus Christ is a God to Thomas (John 20:28) -- so Thomas has two gods?
The Bible makes it clear that Jesus has always been God (John 1:4, 14; John 17:5).
I testify that Jesus Christ is my Lord, my Savior, my God! He is the Only Lord, the Only Savior, the Only True God!
I have always been under the impression that LDS taught that Jesus was not the Christ, God, Gods only begotten Son.
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I used to be LDS for several years. I am now a Born Again Christian. The LDS do not use the same words but have different definitions from Christians.
They believe Jesus was the Christ (only in that He was annoited)...
That He is only 1 of 3 Gods...iow, he is A god not THE GOD...
And that Jesus is the only begotten son of God in a VERY LITERAL and PHYSICAL SENSE, like you are the begotten child of your father. IOW, God had sex with Mary...
They call Him “the savior”, but the only thing He really saves them from is physical death. Because of His death, we will all be resurrected. As far as covering sins, Jesus is only a creditor, the LDS believe we have to PAY HIM BACK with our “good works” and the rites and rituals of Mormonism.
I can provide quotes from LDS sources for the above, if you wish.
Hope this helps.
When I read stuff like yours, I come more and more to the view of Tertullian, that heretics have no right to cite the Scriptures, which are the Churchs books, against the Churchs teachings.
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Agreed. And a wonderful post. Thank you. :)
See post #6.
Sorry, it was post #8
First, learn to spell. It is P-h-a-r-i-s-e-e.
Second, your post shows quite well how the LDS misunderstand Jesus' problem with the Pharisees.
The Pharisees were not necessarily "bigots", they were LEGALISTS. They placed their trust in rules and rituals (sound familiar?) rather than seeking a relationship with God.
The LDS are today's "Latter Day Pharisees", they place their trust in the LDS church, in their membership of it, the "good works" they do, and in their Masonic temple rituals, rather than surrendering to Jesus Christ alone (outside of a Church) and His sacrifice (shedding of His innocent blood) on the Cross (not the Garden) as atonement for ALL SIN.
The LDS have so completely distorted the Bible and the Jesus of the Bible that they really believe that Black is White. Sad, truly.
The name of the Mormon Church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
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PUTTING THE NAME JESUS CHRIST IN THE NAME OF YOUR CHURCH DOES NOT MAKE YOU A CHRISTIAN ANY MORE THAN PUTTING ‘AUTO REPAIRS’ ON THE SIDE OF YOUR GARAGE MAKES YOU A MECHANIC!!!!