Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The gospel in words: 'Worship' [Worship Christ? Lds - Open]
Mormon Times ^ | Jan. 28, 2010 | Joe Cannon

Posted on 01/28/2010 5:02:59 AM PST by Colofornian

"And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him." (3 Nephi 11:17)

The Old Testament word usually translated as "worship" has a sense of to depress, as in to prostrate, especially in homage to royalty or God; to bow down; to stoop; to fall down flat.

The New Testament word is essentially the same, with the added sense of reverence and adoration.

In English, the word "worship" means to honor or adore as divine or sacred, especially with rituals or ceremonies; to offer prayers to God; to regard with extreme respect, devotion or love; to idolize; to regard or treat a person with honor or respect, specifically, to bow down or salute (Oxford English Dictionary).

There are two aspects of worship. First, there is the more formal sense of worship, such as sacrament meetings, public prayers and temple worship. The second aspect is our own personal attitude of worship. Of course, the two are intimately linked.

Simply sitting in a worship service without a personal attitude of worship is not worship.

It is in this more personal sense that the elements of "to fall down," "to prostrate oneself" or "bow down" become more instructive. Paul, in speaking of spiritual gifts, notes that "so falling down on his face he will worship God" (1 Corinthians 14:25).

Most of the scriptural uses of worship have this sense of personal submission to the divine.

In its deepest sense, worship means the surrender of our will to God's will. We are taught "that the right way is to believe in Christ ... wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul" (2 Nephi 25:29).

The scriptures also admonish us what not to worship. Isaiah teaches that people have turned away from God when their "land is also full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made" (Isaiah 2:8).

President Gordon B. Hinckley captured the highest sense of worship when he taught about the Savior:

"He is the Savior and the Redeemer of the world. I believe in Him. I love Him. I speak His name in reverence and wonder. I worship Him as I worship His Father, in spirit and in truth. I thank Him and kneel before His wounded feet and hands and side, amazed at the love He offers me" (Liahona, March 1998).


TOPICS: Other Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: antimormonthread; bookofmormon; christian; lds; mormon
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-99 next last
From the article: In its deepest sense, worship means the surrender of our will to God's will. We are taught "that the right way is to believe in Christ ... wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul" (2 Nephi 25:29).

Now Who is to receive this "worship...with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul" per this Lds writer & Book of Mormon? (Jesus Christ)

This writer reiterates it by citing an Lds "prophet" --President Gordon B. Hinckley: "He is the Savior and the Redeemer of the world. I believe in Him. I love Him. I speak His name in reverence and wonder. I worship Him as I worship His Father, in spirit and in truth. I thank Him and kneel before His wounded feet and hands and side, amazed at the love He offers me" (Liahona, March 1998).

But what do Mormons do when their "prophets" (like Hinckley) and their "scriptures" (like 2 Nephi 25:29) are in conflict with their "apostles" (like Bruce R. McConkie?). What happens when their leaders convey an "uncertain trumpet" of worship? ["For if the trumpet gave an uncertain sound, who would prepare himself for war?" (1 Cor. 14:8)]

Now, granted, once upon a time, Lds apostle McConkie was on board this worship-of-Christ thing:

How many (true) gods are worshiped according to this LDS apostle's "Mormon Doctrine" 1966 book? (Three according to the Mormon definition of Heavenly Father and Jesus and the Holy Ghost being three separate gods): "Three separate personages--the Father, Son and Holy Ghost--comprise the Godhead...To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only gods we worship." (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 567-577, 1966 edition)

Oh, wait a minute. (I should have kept reading). McConkie, on p. 848, only emphasizes worshiping two gods: "The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship....No one can worship the Father without also worshiping the Son....It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son" (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 848).

Oh, wait. By 1982, McConkie changes his mind upon giving a special devo @ BYU almost 28 years ago (March 2, 1982, "Our Relationship with the Lord.") Essentially, McConkie wasn't happy with either his "3" god or "2" god worship. So he came up with a kind of 1 1/2-god worship to present to BYU students:

We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.

In worship, our focus is Jesus Christ. In this Mormon apostle's supposed "devotion" to his distinct "jesus christ," McConkie wrapped up that 1982 devo seemingly focused on himself...all right after he just told these students NOT to seek a special intimate relationship with Jesus:

There are yet others who have an excessive zeal which causes them to go beyond the mark. Their desire for excellence is inordinate. In an effort to be truer than true they devote themselves to gaining a special, personal relationship with Christ that is both improper and perilous. I say perilous because this course, particularly in the lives of some who are spiritually immature, is a gospel hobby which creates an unwholesome holier-than-thou attitude. In other instances it leads to despondency because the seeker after perfection knows he is not living the way he supposes he should. Another peril is that those so involved often begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed. In this connection a current and unwise book...advocates gaining a special relationship with Jesus...Now I know that some may be offended at the counsel that they should not strive for a special and personal relationship with Christ. It will seem to them as though I am speaking out against mother love, or Americanism, or the little red schoolhouse. But I am not. There is a fine line here over which true worshipers will not step.

When you are in a faith where your "prophets" and "apostles" can't even agree whether or not it's "OK" to pray directly to Christ, to have a personal relationship with Christ, and to worship Christ, then you know you have built a Haiti-like structure in a bad earthquake zone.

When you have "apostles" who write books called "Mormon Doctrine"...
...setting themselves up as the foremost authority on Lds doctrine...
...& Lds "prophets" prior to Hinckley ensured such works were closely reviewed in the 1966 versions & beyond...
...+ Lds bookstores carry it up & down their chains...
...then ya have to wonder @ Lds leaders' level of spiritual discernment if they never directly countermand the words of this Lds apostle...you know...the one who closes BYU "devotionals" with self-elevation:

"Now I sincerely hope that no one will imagine that I have in the slightest degree downgraded the Lord Jesus in the scheme of things. I have not done so. As far as I know there is not a man on earth who thinks more highly of him than I do. It just may be that I have preached more sermons, taught more doctrine, and written more words about the Lord Jesus Christ than any man now living. I have ten large volumes in print, seven of which deal almost entirely with Christ, and the other three with him and his doctrines."

Translation of McConkie: "Let's see, now. We worship the Father only...we pray to the Father only...we don't seek a special relationship with Jesus...Nope, no 'downgrade' of Christ in my mind, right? Why, in my humble opinion, I think more of Christ than any man alive! In fact, if I may be so modest, 'It just may be that I have preached more sermons, taught more doctrine, and written more words about the Lord Jesus Christ than any man now living.' Obviously, I've exported a lot of commentary on the man!"

It's time for grassroots Mormons to toss their general authorities overboard. 'Cause if they can't or won't oppose an "apostle" who tells impressionable BYU students that they aren't to worship Christ, pray directly to Him, or worship Him, then they don't have the best spiritual interests of their sheep at heart.

1 posted on 01/28/2010 5:03:00 AM PST by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Disclaimer; I am not LDS.

“When you are in a faith where your “prophets” and “apostles” can’t even agree whether or not it’s “OK” to pray directly to Christ, to have a personal relationship with Christ, and to worship Christ, then you know you have built a Haiti-like structure in a bad earthquake zone.”

I have always been under the impression that LDS taught that Jesus was not “the Christ”, “God”, “God’s only begotten Son”.

C. S. Lewis;
“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”


2 posted on 01/28/2010 5:16:45 AM PST by vanilla swirl (Maranatha!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

The “gospel in words” is clear: 1 Corinthians 15:1-8. See

http://www.faithfacts.org/bible-101/what-is-the-gospel


3 posted on 01/28/2010 5:17:42 AM PST by grumpa (VP)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Not the same Jesus
“There are those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints do not believe in the traditional Christ.

No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.”

– LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley (LDS Church News, June 20, 1998)

“It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons.” – LDS publication, Ensign Magazine, May 1977, p. 26


4 posted on 01/28/2010 5:24:58 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana

I wonder how many posts it will be before you are accused of distorting the ldsers belief? (Even though you are quoting them directly.)


5 posted on 01/28/2010 7:11:35 AM PST by svcw (Ellie and Mark come out come out where ever you are.....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Planning to become a god who goes on to create worlds and have babies forever is the height of self-worship.


6 posted on 01/28/2010 7:13:56 AM PST by lurk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: vanilla swirl

... I am LDS

The name of the “Mormon” Church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”

We Teach that “God the father is on the literal father of Jesus Christ, Jesus the Christ is the Litteral Son of God, and the Holy ghost is a personnage of Spirit, three distinct personages”.

If you pray to Christ rather than God the Father you are in direct violation of Christ’s teachings!

In every instance of prayer, Christ taught us to pray to the Father!

It is your reliance on a 4th Century document known as the Nicene Creed which defines your version of God that keeps you from understanding the true nature of the relationship between God and Christ


7 posted on 01/28/2010 7:23:11 AM PST by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Californian, you are a Religious Bigot (Latter-Day Pharasee).

You should remove that 2x4 in your own eye, before you try to remove the sliver in mine.

First purge your own religion of your non-scriptural reliance on the Nicene, Apostolic and Athenasian Creeds for your own definition of the Godhead, before you worry about our doctrine.

Then if you are a true Christian, you will seek truth rather than distortion.


8 posted on 01/28/2010 7:33:08 AM PST by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: teppe

Okay, teppe, your post is a cause of offense.

I serve the Patriarchate of Antioch (you may recall Antioch, where the disciples were first called ‘Christians’) as a lowly subdeacon.

If anyone has dibs on who gets to be called “Christians” it’s us Antiochian Orthodox. The Nicene Creed has been the normative statement of the Christian faith from before the Scriptures were collected and canonized, and was set forth by the same authority that fixed the canon of Scripture: an Ecumenical Council of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. If you deny its contents, it is you who are not a Christian, however fond you are of your on interpretation of the Church’s books.

When I read stuff like yours, I come more and more to the view of Tertullian, that heretics have no right to cite the Scriptures, which are the Church’s books, against the Church’s teachings.


9 posted on 01/28/2010 7:53:43 AM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: teppe; vanilla swirl
We Teach that “God the father is on the literal father of Jesus Christ, Jesus the Christ is the Litteral Son of God, and the Holy ghost is a personnage of Spirit, three distinct personages”.

Mormonism teachs three separate 'gods', part of a pantheon of 'gods', in short - polytheism. This is further borne out by the greek mythologic procreation of Jesus - heavenly father coming down and having sex with mary, a mortal. Your own definitions violate the requirements for godhood as you cite that the Holy Spirit is a personage of 'spirit' - smith taught gods had physical bodies.

It is your reliance on a 4th Century document known as the Nicene Creed which defines your version of God that keeps you from understanding the true nature of the relationship between God and Christ

Those creeds are founded solidly upon the bible. Your reliance is upon a fraud and a swindler - joseph smith - and upon a 19th century work of fiction that smith attempted to sell the copywrite to - the bom. Furthermore, understanding of the true nature of the relationship between the Father and the Son is obscured by the desire to become a 'god' as well.

10 posted on 01/28/2010 9:13:18 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: teppe
Then if you are a true Christian, you will seek truth rather than distortion.

Yep, seek out the truth tepid

The bom lies about the history of the western hemisphere
Smith lies about his ability to 'translate'
smith lied about his practice of polygamy
smith lied about the source of his 'revelation'

seek the truth tepid.

11 posted on 01/28/2010 9:17:19 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: teppe; vanilla swirl
If you pray to Christ rather than God the Father you are in direct violation of Christ’s teachings! In every instance of prayer, Christ taught us to pray to the Father!

Vanilla Swirl, Teppe can't even make this case based upon his own Latter-day 'scripture'!!!

Here he claims that it's a "direct violation of Christ's teachings" and "in every instance of prayer, Christ taught us to pray to the Father" yet Mormons are so deceived because of what their leaders have force-fed them, they often don't even know their own Book of Mormon teaches on this subject!

If praying directly to Jesus was indeed "perilous" as McConkie claimed, then please tell us, Teppe, why Stephen, when in peril of death, prayed directly to Jesus? ...saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. (Acts 7:59)

If praying directly to Jesus was indeed "plain sectarian nonsense" as McConkie claimed, then why did Book of Mormon disciples repeatedly directly pray to Jesus?
3 Nephi 19:7
Then again in 3 Nephi 19:18
Then again in 3 Nephi 19:24
Then they thought that wasn't enough direct prayer to Jesus. So "he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him." (3 Nephi 19:24)

And what? The Mormon Jesus condemned them for praying directly unto him? (No!) "And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him" (3 Nephi 19:25)

Did the Mormon Jesus tell them it was "plain sectarian nonsense" to keep praying directly to Him? (No!) "And Jesus said unto them: Pray on; nevertheless they not cease to pray." (3 Nephi 19:26)

So, these Nephite disciples apparently "prayed without ceasing" to the Mormon Jesus. Yet McConkie didn't like that some BYU students were emulating that, and told them in 1982:

I am well aware that some who have prayed for endless hours feel they have a special and personal relationship with Christ that they never had before. I wonder if this is any or much different, however, from the feelings of fanatical sectarians who with glassy eyes and fiery tongues assure us they have been saved by grace and are assured of a place with the Lord in a heavenly abode, when in fact they have never even received the fullness of the gospel. I wonder if it is not part of Lucifer's system to make people feel they are special friends of Jesus when in fact they are not following the normal and usual pattern of worship found in the true Church. Let me remind you to stay in the course charted by the Church. It is the Lord's Church, and he will not permit it to be led astray. If we take the counsel that comes from the prophets and seers we will pursue the course that is pleasing to the Lord. Would it be amiss if I reminded you that Jesus maintained a reserve between him and his disciples and that he did not allow them the same intimacy with him that they had with each other.

Your name-calling of Christians, Teppe, & McConkie's ("fanatical sectarians...part of Lucifer's system") seems to be similar. Are you buds?

I'll ask the Q, anyway, and I don't expect a retraction from you (or any Mormon, for that matter, FReeper Mormons seem to slink away vs. showing any true attitude of repentance when their posts are proved wrong)...but to be consistent with what you say on this post:

Does 3 Nephi 19 violate Christ's teachings?
Does Acts 7:59 violate Christ's teachings?
How can "every instance" somehow leave out these passages?
What? Have you taken scissors to these references & they're no longer part of your 'quad'?

12 posted on 01/28/2010 9:39:09 AM PST by Colofornian (We don't need Soilent Greeners in office!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: vanilla swirl; teppe
I have always been under the impression that LDS taught that Jesus was not “the Christ”...

VS, Mormons will say that Jesus is "the Christ" but they tend to downplay His uniqueness. In effect,the Mormon jesus is "a" son of god, but so are we. (We're all "sons of god" from the pre-existence...he just was spiritually born first...so the Mormon jesus is your elder brother...but Lucifer was likewise born pre-mortally before you, so Lucifer is supposedly another "elder brother" to Mormons).

I have always been under the impression that LDS taught that Jesus was not...“God”...

Well, this is where it gets very dicey for Mormons, 'cause here's where they speak out of both sides of their mouth. They like to present themselves as monotheistic Christians, but in fact are polytheistic Mormons. They'll say, "Well Jesus is part of the Godhead" -- their version of sounding as "trinitarian" as possible minus being trinitarian. But when you ask them direct questions, or look @ their lit, you see they concede that they think of Jesus as a "second" god.

Now that presents a real contradiction when they start studying both the Bible and even the Book of Mormon. Why is that?

Well, Thomas calls Jesus his God in John 20:28; even the Nephite disciples likewise called Jesus “their Lord and God” (3 Nephi 19:18) [You can see from my last post & Teppe's last post, though, that most Mormons seem to steer clear of 3 Nephi 19]. But Lds are without excuse, 'cause "Jesus is God" is actually even found in several other Book of Mormon passages as well:
2 Nephi 10:3;
2 Nephi 11:7;
And three passages clearly say that Jesus Is the eternal God (2 Nephi 31:21; 2 Nephi 26:12; Alma 11:38-39, 44)

Another Mormon "scripture" -- Doctrines & Covenants -- says Jesus is God in several places (19:4; 38:1-3; 62:1; etc.) Since there’s only one true God in the bible and in the LDS scriptures (for example, Pearl of Great Price says "no God besides me" (1:6), either Jesus is a false god or the one true God. As Jesus Christ is a God to Thomas (John 20:28) -- so Thomas has two gods?

The Bible makes it clear that Jesus has always been God (John 1:4, 14; John 17:5).

I testify that Jesus Christ is my Lord, my Savior, my God! He is the Only Lord, the Only Savior, the Only True God!

13 posted on 01/28/2010 9:55:26 AM PST by Colofornian (We don't need Soilent Greeners in office!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: vanilla swirl

I have always been under the impression that LDS taught that Jesus was not “the Christ”, “God”, “God’s only begotten Son”.

- - - - - - -
I used to be LDS for several years. I am now a Born Again Christian. The LDS do not use the same words but have different definitions from Christians.

They believe Jesus was the Christ (only in that He was annoited)...

That He is only 1 of 3 Gods...iow, he is A god not THE GOD...

And that Jesus is the only begotten son of God in a VERY LITERAL and PHYSICAL SENSE, like you are the begotten child of your father. IOW, God had sex with Mary...

They call Him “the savior”, but the only thing He really saves them from is physical death. Because of His death, we will all be resurrected. As far as covering sins, Jesus is only a creditor, the LDS believe we have to PAY HIM BACK with our “good works” and the rites and rituals of Mormonism.

I can provide quotes from LDS sources for the above, if you wish.

Hope this helps.


14 posted on 01/28/2010 11:14:54 AM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: The_Reader_David

When I read stuff like yours, I come more and more to the view of Tertullian, that heretics have no right to cite the Scriptures, which are the Church’s books, against the Church’s teachings.

- - - - - - -
Agreed. And a wonderful post. Thank you. :)


15 posted on 01/28/2010 11:18:18 AM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: svcw

See post #6.


16 posted on 01/28/2010 11:21:42 AM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: svcw

Sorry, it was post #8


17 posted on 01/28/2010 11:25:01 AM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: teppe; Colofornian; Godzilla
...you are a Religious Bigot Latter-Day Pharasee [teppe]

First, learn to spell. It is P-h-a-r-i-s-e-e.

Second, your post shows quite well how the LDS misunderstand Jesus' problem with the Pharisees.

The Pharisees were not necessarily "bigots", they were LEGALISTS. They placed their trust in rules and rituals (sound familiar?) rather than seeking a relationship with God.

The LDS are today's "Latter Day Pharisees", they place their trust in the LDS church, in their membership of it, the "good works" they do, and in their Masonic temple rituals, rather than surrendering to Jesus Christ alone (outside of a Church) and His sacrifice (shedding of His innocent blood) on the Cross (not the Garden) as atonement for ALL SIN.

The LDS have so completely distorted the Bible and the Jesus of the Bible that they really believe that Black is White. Sad, truly.

IOW...

Photobucket

18 posted on 01/28/2010 11:34:25 AM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian; teppe
Never mind "tepid"....

Photobucket

19 posted on 01/28/2010 11:35:43 AM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: teppe; vanilla swirl

The name of the “Mormon” Church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”

- - - - - - - -
PUTTING THE NAME JESUS CHRIST IN THE NAME OF YOUR CHURCH DOES NOT MAKE YOU A CHRISTIAN ANY MORE THAN PUTTING ‘AUTO REPAIRS’ ON THE SIDE OF YOUR GARAGE MAKES YOU A MECHANIC!!!!


20 posted on 01/28/2010 11:37:31 AM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: teppe; vanilla swirl
and the Holy ghost is a personnage of Spirit,

The LDS have taught, and I was taught as LDS, that we are here on earth in order to gain a body of flesh and bone in order to “progress”, which is what God did:

“Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar that through which we are now passing. He became God – an exalted being – through obedience to the same eternal Gosepl truths that we are given opportunity to obey.” - Apostle Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 104

Spirits cannot be made perfect without a body of flesh and bones. This body and its spirit are brought to immortality and blessings of salvation through the resurrection. … In no other way, other than through birth into this life and the resurrection, can spirits become like our Eternal Father.” - Joseph Fielding Smith, quoted here: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=ea635ef93e84b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

So, if it is true that in order to progress to Godhood, a body of flesh and bone is needed (why we are here on earth), then why do 2 of the 3 members of the LDS Godhead violate that?

If Christ was part of the Godhead prior to His incarnation (Matthew 1:23 and Hebrews 10:5) then he became a God prior to having a body of flesh and bone. This is also taught in the Endowment ceremony.

Furthermore, if progression is an ETERNAL principle (see above) how has one person of the Godhead (the Holy Spirit) attained Godhood without getting a body (Acts 5:3,4)?

21 posted on 01/28/2010 11:41:45 AM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: teppe; Colofornian
Then if you are a true Christian, you will seek truth rather than distortion.

Teppe, I was seeking the truth, which is how I discovered the fraud of the LDS church and exactly WHY I finally became a Christian as opposed to a Mormon. The LDS Church is the distortion.

22 posted on 01/28/2010 11:46:54 AM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian; teppe; Godzilla

Does 3 Nephi 19 violate Christ’s teachings?
Does Acts 7:59 violate Christ’s teachings?
How can “every instance” somehow leave out these passages?
What? Have you taken scissors to these references & they’re no longer part of your ‘quad’?

- - - - - - - -
The new LDS party line is probably “The Book of Mormon isn’t ‘translated correctly’” :)


23 posted on 01/28/2010 11:51:34 AM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut; Colofornian; teppe
The new LDS party line is probably “The Book of Mormon isn’t ‘translated correctly’” :)


24 posted on 01/28/2010 12:03:45 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: svcw
 (Even though you are quoting them directly.)
 
You foul ANTI's are ALWAYS taking things OUT OF CONTEXT!!!
 
 
That is our Standard Excuse and it serves us well.)

25 posted on 01/28/2010 1:09:49 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: teppe
that “God the father is on the literal father of Jesus Christ...

Whi got Mary pregnant in the LITERAL, normal way!

26 posted on 01/28/2010 1:10:57 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: teppe
Then if you are a true Christian, you will seek truth rather than distortion.

If you were a 'true' MORMON; I suspect you'd follow D&C 132 instead of what the US Government told you to do.

27 posted on 01/28/2010 1:12:29 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla
Mormonism teachs three separate 'gods', part of a pantheon of 'gods', in short - polytheism.

And TWO of them have PHYSICAL bodies!!

28 posted on 01/28/2010 1:13:33 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut
When I read stuff like yours, I come more and more to the view of Tertullian, that heretics have no right to cite the Scriptures, which are the Church’s books, against the Church’s teachings.

I seem to recall a story about some dude that tried quoting Scripture: to CHRIST!

Things won't work out for him too well in the future, I fear, even though LDSism considers him to be Christ's BROTHER!

29 posted on 01/28/2010 1:16:00 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

And that same “brother” was cast out of heaven for wanting to EXALT himself to the level of GOD (just like the LDS).

Make you wonder who they REALLY follow, is certainly isn’t the Jesus of the Bible.


30 posted on 01/28/2010 1:25:55 PM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana; svcw; Colofornian

Jesus died for me, too. I worship, love and adore the Savior and our Heavenly Father. The Holy Ghost causes my heart to swell with love and adoration for Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ. I don’t know why this is controversial.

P.S. I’m a Mormon.


31 posted on 01/28/2010 3:35:25 PM PST by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy
I don’t know why this is controversial.

Trusting in and following a fictitious Christ will result in a fictitious salvation, no matter how sincere one may be.

32 posted on 01/28/2010 4:06:20 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy

Sandy you repeat the same lines over and over, I asked you once if you just cut and paste or is this memorized?
And in this case what is the repetitive statement in reference to?


33 posted on 01/28/2010 4:26:51 PM PST by svcw (Ellie and Mark come out come out where ever you are.....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut

“PUTTING THE NAME JESUS CHRIST IN THE NAME OF YOUR CHURCH DOES NOT MAKE YOU A CHRISTIAN ANY MORE THAN PUTTING ‘AUTO REPAIRS’ ON THE SIDE OF YOUR GARAGE MAKES YOU A MECHANIC!!!!”

Hey chill! I think we just proved just one of the inconsistencies of LDS.
I personally think that it is a false, pagan religion that came from the mouth of a demon!


34 posted on 01/28/2010 4:33:12 PM PST by vanilla swirl (Maranatha!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: vanilla swirl; teppe; Saundra Duffy

LOL. I wasn’t shouting at you, I was shouting at all the LDS who use that argument.

I used it too when I was LDS but I was very young then, now it is just the lamest argument they make, but also the most common.


35 posted on 01/28/2010 6:38:43 PM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy; svcw

You keep cutting and pasting the same statement. interesting.

No Christian here would (or ever has) said that Jesus DIDN”T die for you. In fact, we have consistently said just the opposite, the Christ DID die for you.

However, the LDS do not put their faith in Christ alone. They put their faith in the LDS Church and their rites and rituals instead. Many believe, as the leaders have taught, “there is no salvation outside the LDS church”.

Is that worship? Yes. It is worship of a man made institution. The LDS joyfully sing “Praise to the Man”, referring to Joseph Smith. No Christian would ever sing a song like that! Ever.

Saundra, “warm fuzzies” is not “Worship”. Worship is much more akin to Thomas’ statement to Jesus, “MY LORD AND MY GOD!” It is falling down in awe and recognizing that we could NEVER be worthy in any way if it were not for the shedding of Christ’s blood on the Cross.

When I was LDS, and other LDS and ex-LDS have confirmed it, “worship” was the feeling of a “burning in the bosom” and of quiet reverence that permeates LDS meetings.

That is NOT worship. The LDS (and unfortunately many Christians) actually DISTANCE themselves from God by sitting in their meetings puffed up with pride thinking they are being so “reverent”.

Worship, REAL worship, is TOTAL abandonment to the Triune God, it is getting “lost” in worship. Praising Him and relating to Him in joy without concern how others may see it. It is like David dancing before the Ark of the Covenant. THAT is worship. Worship is SACRED, A feast, joy and total abject humility before an Omnipotent God.

There is NO Way the LDS can understand that kind of Worship, because they do not understand God or Jesus Christ or The ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Saundra, if you REALLY love Jesus, you would leave the LDS church and come to HIM alone to save you. You would abandon those things that keep you from Him such as false temple rituals stolen from the Masons, “extra scripture” that are easily disproven, a worship of Prophets and Apostles and of Joseph Smith and instead come to a very personal, very real RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ.

PLEASE Read this book called “born again Mormon” (it’s free):

www.bornagainmormon.com

Here is a song by a contemporary worship leader named Matt Redman:

We come to your mountain
The hill of the Lord we would ascend
And journey into your holy place
To feast in your presence
And bring our devotions to you, God
We come as a kingdom of your priests

We’re climbing up the mountain of the Lord
Towards your holy place
And every step is praise
Encountering the glory of your name
Your throne of holiness
The wonders of your grace

Come, come let us worship
Come let us recognize what a sacred thing we do
Come, let us bow down
God, as we bring our hearts
Let them please the heart of you

We enter your santuary
To minister at your holy throne
Where thousands of angels joyfully sing


36 posted on 01/28/2010 7:18:12 PM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: vanilla swirl

And I agree with you on the demon part.


37 posted on 01/28/2010 7:19:46 PM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy

True worship involves being broken. Only once we have been broken in spirit can we see the majesty of God and the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

Sweetly broken - Jeremy Riddle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExLyUlj2uns

To the cross I look, to the cross I cling
Of its suffering I do drink
Of its work I do sing

For on it my Savior both bruised and crushed
Showed that God is love
And God is just

Chorus:
At the cross You beckon me
You draw me gently to my knees, and I am
Lost for words, so lost in love,
I’m sweetly broken, wholly surrendered

What a priceless gift, undeserved life
Have I been given
Through Christ crucified

You’ve called me out of death
You’ve called me into life
And I was under Your wrath
Now through the cross I’m reconciled

Chorus:

In awe of the cross I must confess
How wondrous Your redeeming love and
How great is Your faithfulness

(2x’s)
Chorus:


38 posted on 01/29/2010 2:01:43 AM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy
P.S. I’m a Mormon.

Yes, we know, but your posts sound so CHRISTIAN!

How do you manage to avoid the obvious theological conundrums of MORMONism messing with your mind?

39 posted on 01/29/2010 4:22:18 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy
...for Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ. I don’t know why this is controversial.

SURE you do!

You KNOW that the FACT that MORMONism claims that the FATHER has a physical body is directly opposite of thousands of years of Judeo-Christian teachings.

40 posted on 01/29/2010 4:24:43 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy
The Holy Ghost causes my heart to swell with love and adoration for Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ. I don’t know why this is controversial.
 
You 'mormons' are supposed to AGREE with what the PROPHET of the church says, or you are in  DANGER!  of APOSTACY!!





"There are those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints do not believe in the traditional Christ.
 
No, I don't.
The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.”
 
– LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley (LDS Church News, June 20, 1998)


41 posted on 01/29/2010 4:28:12 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut; Saundra Duffy
PLEASE Read this book called “born again Mormon” (it’s free):

And; you can ask of GOD to see if what is in it is TRUE!!

42 posted on 01/29/2010 4:29:39 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut; vanilla swirl

And I agree with you on the demon part.



KJV
 Galatians 1:6-9
 6.  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
 7.  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
 8.  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 9.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 
 
 
 
ANYBODY???
 
Like this fine looking fellow???
 
 
 
 
 

2 Corinthians 11:12-15
 12.  But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
 13.  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
 14.  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
 15.  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
 
 

Like THESE guys??
 
 
 
 
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
 
 


 
Ephesians 2:1-2 
1.  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:


 
1 Corinthians 4:17
  For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
 
1 Corinthians 11:2
   Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
 
2 Thessalonians 2:15
   Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
 
2 Timothy 1:13
   Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
 
2 Timothy 3:14-15
 14.  But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
 15.  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

43 posted on 01/29/2010 4:31:44 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy
 

 
"Any Latter-day Saint who denounces or opposes, whether actively or otherwise, any plan or doctrine advocated by the 'prophets, seers, and revelators' of the Church is cultivating the spirit of apostacy..."
(Improvement Era, June 1945, p. 354)
 
 
 
Reinforced here......
 

MP3 File

This is the audio clip of Dallin H. Oaks, current Mormon Apostle leader, from the PBS documentary, "The Mormons", declaring unequivocally:

"IT'S WRONG TO CRITICIZE LEADERS OF THE (MORMON) CHURCH, EVEN IF THE CRITICISM IS TRUE."
 

 
Don't criticize?

 
 
 
 
And here:
 

Temple Recommend Questions:

 1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

 2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

 3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

 4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

 5 Do you live the law of chastity?

 6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

 7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

 8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

 9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

10 Are you a full-tithe payer?

11 Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?

12 Do you have financial or other oblgations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

     Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?

     Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?
 

44 posted on 01/29/2010 4:35:43 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy

Jesus died for me, too. I worship, love and adore the Savior and our Heavenly Father. The Holy Ghost causes my heart to swell with love and adoration for Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ. I don’t know why this is controversial.
______________________________________________________

Saundra you keep cutting and pasting the same strange confession...

You post things Christians would not say...

And the parts that do appear to be Christian actually mean something entirely different to a mormon than they would to a Christian..

While you say Jesus died for you, I dont think you have ever said His death upon the Cross and the sheding of His Blood on the cros is what won you complete salvation.

I dont think you have ever said there is power in the Blood of Jesus to save and deliver and heal..

I have asked you previously if you know Jesus loves you but you have never answered me..

Jesus is God but you have never acknowledxged that fact...

Saundra, Christians know that Jesus is God and loves us so much that ...

He left Heaven and came down to become flesh..

and be born of a virgin who had never had sex with either man or mormon god,

and to die on the Cross to save us...

So we could go to Heaven when we die and spend eternity with Him, worshipping Him, the Holy Lamb of God before th throne of God...

Hanging out with Jesus, Paul, John, other Christians of every color and race and nation..

Forever...

I get excited just thinking about it...

What a Love...

What a Savior...

What a God...

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

You are a whoever Saundra...God loves you too...

For God so loved Saundra, that He gave His only begotten Son, that if Saundra believes in Him she should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16


45 posted on 01/29/2010 5:39:34 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

46 posted on 01/29/2010 6:02:14 AM PST by monkapotamus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: monkapotamus

iPad or yours?


47 posted on 01/29/2010 7:40:48 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: The_Reader_David

Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion of the writings of Hippolytus as found in the New Advent, the Catholic Encyclopedia?


48 posted on 01/29/2010 10:04:48 AM PST by Reno232
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy; greyfoxx39; Colofornian; colorcountry; Godzilla; SENTINEL; SZonian
I worship, love and adore the Savior [SD]

Saundra, you may love Jesus, but are you IN LOVE with Him?

IS Jesus your all in all, truly the Lord of your entire life?

Is He more important to you than your friends?

your family?

the LDS church?

Joseph Smith?

the Book of Mormon?

Temple oaths and rituals you have taken?

The idea of modern "prophets and apostles?

If He is, then do away with all of those things. They do not draw people closer to Jesus, they keep people from a true, personal relationship with Him.

No "church" can save or bring you closer to Jesus. Making Him the Lord of your life means having a relationship directly with Him, not relying on a church or ordinances or 'good works' to bring you closer to Him.

John 6:29-29 - Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

49 posted on 01/29/2010 7:50:29 PM PST by reaganaut (It's futile to talk facts to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut

Placemark


50 posted on 01/30/2010 7:24:24 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (Carville "Part of the problem is that Mr Obama was refreshingly naive in believing his own rhetoric")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-99 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson