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"Was Vatican II a triumph of na´ve optimism?" (Catholic Caucus) + EWTN Special tonight!
Insight Scoop ^ | February 4, 2010 | Carl Olson

Posted on 02/04/2010 3:14:10 PM PST by NYer

Two Ignatius Press authors have an engaging conversation in the pages of The Catholic Herald about that question; the conversation has been going on with an exchange of letters going back to last summer (see links below).  The two authors are Moyra Doorly, who wrote No Place For God: The Denial of the Transcendent in Modern Church Architecture (Ignatius Press, 2007), and prolific author and theologian Aidan Nichols, O.P., whose books include Looking at the Liturgy (1996), Hopkins: Theologian's Poet (2006), Lovely Like Jerusalem: The Fulfillment of the Old Testament in Christ and the Church (2007), and Rome and the Eastern Churches: A Study in Schism (2010). Doorly begins:

Dear Fr Aidan,

Thank you for your reply to my previous letter on the concept of Tradition, a subject we can't leave behind just yet, since we're shadowing the agenda for the discussions between the SSPX and Rome, and our topic now is the interpretation of Vatican II in continuity with Catholic doctrinal tradition.

First of all, though, I wasn't suggesting that the sufferings of the SSPX - ostracisation and exile, not to mention the pain of excommunication - constitute a martyrdom. Neither was I comparing the persecution of Christians across the world with the distress of those who watched the religious life that sustained them being dismantled. It's just sad to think of priests who refused to accept the reforms being driven from their parishes and dying of broken hearts, as Archbishop Lefebvre claims happened in A Bishop Speaks.

But were they attached to Tradition or to a particular tradition of expressing Tradition, to borrow your distinction between "Revelation as transmitted in the Church's life" and "the ways in which the Church presents it"?

So far, I haven't found any indication in Archbishop Lefebvre's writings of a particular attachment to the liturgical form of the "middle decades of the 20th century". It must have been Tradition with a capital "T" that concerned him when he wrote in I Accuse the Council that, "the spirit which dominated the Council and which inspired so many of its ambiguous, equivocal and even clearly erroneous texts was not that of the Holy Ghost, but the spirit of the modern world, the spirit of Liberalism, of Teilhard de Chardin, of Modernism, in opposition to the kingdom of Our Lord Jesus Christ."

Read the entire discussion.

UPDATE: The previous exchange of letters between Doorly and Fr. Nichols, leading up to the letters above, are as follows (as best I can tell):

Introduction by Doorly (July 3, 2009)
Letter from Doorly to Fr. Nichols (July 3, 2009)
Response by Fr. Nichols (July 3, 2009)
Letters by both (October 30, 2009)
Letters by both (December 25, 2009)



TOPICS: Catholic; History; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: aidannichols; catholic; doorly; ecumenism; modernism; moyradoorly; nichols; vatican2; vaticanii

1 posted on 02/04/2010 3:14:11 PM PST by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; markomalley; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; ...

EWTN Tribute to Ralph McInerny

 

RALPH MCINERNY’S WHAT WENT WRONG WITH VATICAN II (30 min) EWTN Original Production
EWTNews Director, Raymond Arroyo interviews Dr. Ralph McInerny, author of What Went Wrong with Vatican II. Join EWTN for an exp loration of the reforms instituted by the Vatican II Council which have led to misunderstanding and division in the Church.
Ep 1 - Thursday, February 4, 10 PM ET / 7 PM ET
 

RALPH MCINERNY’S WHAT WENT WRONG WITH VATICAN II (30 min)

Dr. McInerny fearlessly explores the post Vatican II myths that have misled many.
Ep 2 - Thursday, February 4, 10:30 PM ET / 7:30 PM ET

 

RALPH MCINERNY’S WHAT WENT WRONG WITH VATICAN II (30 min)
Notre Dame Professor Ralph McInerny analyzes the theological dissent which took place in the wake of Humanae Vitae and Vatican II, and explains why it has confused so many people.
Ep 3 - Thursday, February 4, 11 PM ET / 8 PM ET

2 posted on 02/04/2010 3:17:10 PM PST by NYer ("Where Peter is, there is the Church." - St. Ambrose of Milan)
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To: NYer
No Place For God: The Denial of the Transcendent in Modern Church Architecture

Interesting. Churches built in the '60's and '70's really are...weird. I guess if there was ever a thing as socialist architecture...

3 posted on 02/04/2010 3:19:59 PM PST by the invisib1e hand (governance is not sovereignty [paraphrasing Bishop Fulton Sheen].)
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To: the invisib1e hand

Weird isn’t the only word. Shameless, Godless, form-trumps-function, ugly. Wonder if anyone’s ever checked the religious (or nonreligious) leanings of the architects chosen by modern church boards. A parish I left long ago opted for expansion and redesign. The church’s lovely saint- and angel-laden stained-glass windows were replaced by a glass wall “stained” with leaves (JUST leaves). The final irony, however, is that the new glass wall separates the church structure from its natural, lush environment . . . of leaves.


4 posted on 02/04/2010 3:39:23 PM PST by Mach9 (.)
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To: the invisib1e hand

Of course it’s socialist (communist, actually). From the 1963 Communist Goals as read into the Congressional Record:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/651116/posts

22) Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all form of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to “eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings,” substitute shapeless, awkward, and meaningless forms.

23) Control art critics and directors of art museums. “Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art.”

This has to do with art and museums, but can easily be applied to architecture, especially church architecture. The fact that the beautiful Gothic cathedrals and churches were specifically built the way they were so as to point the way to heaven (with the spires leading the eye heavenward), and as well as the stained glass windows telling the stories of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection (once again leading heavenward with the beautiful interplay of color and light), would make them all the more susceptible to being trashed into ugliness (think wreckovations). If beauty points the way to heaven, to where does ugliness point the way? I think we all know the answer to that one...


5 posted on 02/04/2010 3:52:43 PM PST by nanetteclaret (Unreconstructed Catholic Texan)
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To: Religion Moderator; NYer
Insight Scoop ^ | February 4, 2010 | Carl Olson

These are clearly wrong -- could the correct Source, date and author please be inserted?

(Click on "Read the entire discussion" in the body of the article.)

6 posted on 02/04/2010 4:36:45 PM PST by Dajjal (Obama is an Ericksonian NLP hypnotist.)
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To: the invisib1e hand

Weird? Try sterile with next to no craftsmanship.


7 posted on 02/04/2010 5:30:29 PM PST by Desdemona (These are the times that try men's souls. - Remember Christmas 1776)
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To: Desdemona
Try sterile with next to no craftsmanship.

Exactly. The "Whitewashed Tomb" effect. Your description is perfect. I was truly at a (rare) loss for words.

I'm still not sure which of Marx's ideas inspires the giant, open auditorium feel.

8 posted on 02/04/2010 5:49:41 PM PST by the invisib1e hand (governance is not sovereignty [paraphrasing Bishop Fulton Sheen].)
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To: the invisib1e hand
I'm still not sure which of Marx's ideas inspires the giant, open auditorium feel.

Elimination of inheritance, elimination of religion and equalization of work, I think, combine to take the artistry out of just about everything.

9 posted on 02/04/2010 8:14:45 PM PST by Desdemona (These are the times that try men's souls. - Remember Christmas 1776)
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To: NYer

Not sure if you saw this:

http://bit.ly/blqCLV


10 posted on 02/04/2010 8:15:32 PM PST by icwhatudo ("laws requiring compulsory abortion could be sustained under the existing Constitution"Obama Adviser)
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To: Desdemona
Elimination of inheritance, elimination of religion and equalization of work, I think, combine to take the artistry out of just about everything.

and artistry is the depiction of the divine. imagine the secularization of churchs.

sort of makes one's blood chill a bit.

11 posted on 02/04/2010 9:04:08 PM PST by the invisib1e hand (governance is not sovereignty [paraphrasing Bishop Fulton Sheen].)
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To: the invisib1e hand
Yes, but you also have to remember that for centuries, craftsmanship was passed down through families and in trade guilds. The guilds are not nearly as powerful as they once were and there was a movement of putting kids through college so that they didn't have to do manual labor. Who's idea was that?

It's all tied together.

12 posted on 02/04/2010 9:11:13 PM PST by Desdemona (These are the times that try men's souls. - Remember Christmas 1776)
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To: Desdemona
Elimination of inheritance, elimination of religion and equalization of work, I think, combine to take the artistry out of just about everything.

and artistry is the depiction of the divine. imagine the secularization of churchs.

sort of makes one's blood chill a bit.

13 posted on 02/04/2010 9:47:42 PM PST by the invisib1e hand (governance is not sovereignty [paraphrasing Bishop Fulton Sheen].)
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To: the invisib1e hand
imagine the secularization of churchs.

It's called "sports".


Frowning takes 68 muscles.
Smiling takes 6.
Pulling this trigger takes 2.
I'm lazy.

14 posted on 02/04/2010 9:49:25 PM PST by The Comedian (Evil can only succeed if good men don't point at it and laugh.)
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