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Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Catholic Response to "Are You Saved?"
CatholicApologetics.org ^ | 1985-1991 | Dr. Robert Schihl and Paul Flanagan

Posted on 02/06/2010 8:21:23 PM PST by Salvation

Catholic Biblical Apologetics


Apologetics without apology!


What does the Roman Catholic Church teach about ...? ... and why?

This website surveys the origin and development of Roman Catholic Christianity from the period of the apostolic church, through the post-apostolic church and into the conciliar movement. Principal attention is paid to the biblical basis of both doctrine and dogma as well as the role of paradosis (i.e. handing on the truth) in the history of the Church. Particular attention is also paid to the hierarchical founding and succession of leadership throughout the centuries.

This is a set of lecture notes used since 1985 to teach the basis for key doctrines and dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church. The objectives of the course were, and are:

The course grew out of the need for the authors to continually answer questions about their faith tradition and their work. (Both authors are active members of Catholic parish communities in the Diocese of Richmond, Virginia. Dr. Robert Schihl was a Professor and Associate Dean of the School of Communication and the Arts at Regent University. Paul Flanagan is a consultant specializing in preparing people for technology based changes.) At the time these notes were first prepared, the authors were spending time in their faith community answering questions about their Protestant Evangelical workplaces (Mr. Flanagan was then a senior executive at the Christian Broadcasting Network), and time in their workplaces answering similar questions about their Roman Catholic faith community. These notes are the result of more than a decade of facilitating dialogue among those who wish to learn more about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches and why.

The Catholic Response to "Are You Saved?"

The Catholic Response to "Are You Saved?"

The Catholic Christian answers this question in three stages or levels corresponding to the three meanings the words "saved" and "salvation" have in the Bible. (These meanings are found in the previous section, "Salvation: A Biblical Portrait." )

Catholic Christians can respond that they have been saved. This acknowledges the first meaning of "saved" and "salvation" in scripture--Jesus Christ, Savior, by whose act of salvation we are objectively saved--He died, rose from the dead, saved them from sin.

2 Cor 5:17
So whoever is in Christ is a new creation

Catholic Christians can also respond that they are being saved. This acknowledges the second meaning "saved" and "salvation" have in scripture--the present experience, God's power delivering constantly from the bondage of sin.

1 Cor 15:2
Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Catholic Christians also respond that they will be saved, that they have hope and confidence that God will give them the grace of perseverance; that they will respond to it; and accept his gift of salvation until their death. This acknowledges the third meaning the words "saved" and "salvation" have in scripture--the future deliverance of believers at the Second Coming of Christ.

Rom 5:9
How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath.


TOPICS: Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: apoologetics; catholic; catholiclist; salvation
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Finishing the topic of salvation tomorrow.
1 posted on 02/06/2010 8:21:24 PM PST by Salvation
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To: nickcarraway; Lady In Blue; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; Catholicguy; RobbyS; markomalley; ...
Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.

2 posted on 02/06/2010 8:23:42 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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excellent source materials.....


3 posted on 02/06/2010 8:25:55 PM PST by raygunfan
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To: Salvation

Seems like a long diatribe about something so simple as asking Jesus to come into your heart and be your savior. IMHO


4 posted on 02/06/2010 8:26:34 PM PST by doc1019 (To call Obama a bumbling idiot would be an insult to bumbling idiots worldwide.)
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To: All
Foundation

Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Foundation: Apologetics Without Apology
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Foundation: An Incomplete Picture
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Foundation: Dearly Beloved Catholic Brothers and Sisters

Being Catholic and Christian: Faith and Salvation

Catholic Biblical Apologetics:Being Catholic & Christian:Faith and Salvation-Authoriative
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Being Catholic & Christian: Apostolic Confessions of Faith
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Post-Apostolic Confessions of Faith
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Salvation: A Biblical Portrait
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Salvation: "Being Saved"
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Catholic Response to "Are You Saved?"

5 posted on 02/06/2010 8:26:36 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: doc1019

It’s just expanding on this former thread — http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2444697/posts?page=1

Sorry it seems so ordinary to you. It’s very important to all Catholics.


6 posted on 02/06/2010 8:28:45 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Yet so simple for mankind.


7 posted on 02/06/2010 8:30:27 PM PST by doc1019 (To call Obama a bumbling idiot would be an insult to bumbling idiots worldwide.)
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To: doc1019

You wrote:

“Seems like a long diatribe about something so simple as asking Jesus to come into your heart and be your savior.”

So, you think Jesus just asks for us to ask Him to come into our hearts as our Savior? No repentance is necessary? I guess we should just ignore those verses about obeying commandments while we’re at it?

“But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:16-17).


8 posted on 02/06/2010 8:34:11 PM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: doc1019

It may be simple, but it is not necessarily easy. As Catholics we know we need to set our salvation goal daily. Yes, Christ died for our sins, (past); He is with us today to guide us (present); and He will be with us to lead us through the turmoil of modern life (future).

But our eternal salvation is not something we take lightly or for granted. It is an ongoing process, hopefully, for everyone — not just Catholics.


9 posted on 02/06/2010 8:34:14 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

As a non-catholic, all three of the responses at once can also be given. Just like we can say we have been redeemed, are being redeemed every day we are still both sinner and saint, in the process of sanctification, and that we will be redeemed (glorification) when we die.


10 posted on 02/06/2010 8:39:54 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: Secret Agent Man

You’ve got it! It’s not a one thing cure all, is it?


11 posted on 02/06/2010 8:42:40 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: vladimir998

People, no matter what denomination, who think being a Christian is ‘easy’, don’t understand that you don’t just say words you don’t really mean and somehow get a free pass.

For those of us that understand the price that had to be paid so we can confidently say “we are saved”, it’s trying to do our best to live a life the way Christ wants us to, but not having to worry when we fail, because we know we can have forgiveness when genuine repentance is there.

For those that don’t realize this, Christianity appears to be cheap grace. To those that have learned a little more about it, they find it is hardly cheap grace.


12 posted on 02/06/2010 8:45:26 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: Salvation

“A one thing cure all”

Not exactly sure what you mean. In a way of speaking it is, if you are genuine about your belief in Christ and genuinely ask for forgiveness when you fail. For those people they are not taking it for granted or of the opinion “I just say the words and God has to forgive me no matter what?” For those who think it’s just a game and forgiveness is easy, I just have to ask, and God has to forgive me or He violates His word, they don’t have it. They never did.


13 posted on 02/06/2010 8:50:29 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: Salvation

Make salvation as hard as you want to, biblically salvation is easy … just ask Jesus to be your savior (and mean it) and salvation is yours.

As for “easy”, Jesus died for our sins, once and for all. If we accept this premise, then our sins are forgiven “once and for all” if we accept him as our savior.

I have yet to find, in scripture, that we have to spend hours or days or eons in penance to get salvation.

If such were the case then heaven would be a hit and miss circumstance as with the Muslims.


14 posted on 02/06/2010 8:51:55 PM PST by doc1019 (To call Obama a bumbling idiot would be an insult to bumbling idiots worldwide.)
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To: doc1019

Not what these hands have done,
Can save this guilty soul;
Not what this toiling flesh has borne,
Can make my spirit whole.

Refrain:
Thy work alone, my Saviour,
Can ease this weight of sin;
Thy blood alone, O Lamb of God,
Can give me peace within.

Not what I feel or do,
Can give me peace with God;
Not all my prayers, or sighs, or tears,
Can ease my awful load.

Thy love to me, O God,
Not mine, O Lord, to Thee,
Can rid me of this dark unrest,
And set my spirit free.

No other work save Thine,
No meaner blood, will do;
No strength, save that which is divine,
Can bear me safely through.

I praise the God of grace,
I trust His love and might;
He calls me His, I call Him mine;
My God, my joy, my light!


BIBLE PASSAGE:
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost


15 posted on 02/06/2010 9:10:05 PM PST by WestwardHo (Whom the god would destroy, they first drive mad.)
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To: WestwardHo

And your point?


16 posted on 02/06/2010 9:11:49 PM PST by doc1019 (To call Obama a bumbling idiot would be an insult to bumbling idiots worldwide.)
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To: doc1019

You are misunderstanding me, I think. I’m not saying that we must earn salvation. I am saying that because we are sinners, we need to work toward eternal salvation each and every day.

(And it’s not always easy, because we all are sinners.)


17 posted on 02/06/2010 9:15:20 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Secret Agent Man

Some people speak of once saved, always saved. (OSAS) It’s just something that Catholics don’t agree with in totality.


18 posted on 02/06/2010 9:16:37 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Once saved forever saved. Nothing to work towards. I asked Jesus to be my saviour over 30 years ago, I have nothing to work toward. My salvation is assured.


19 posted on 02/06/2010 9:26:39 PM PST by doc1019 (To call Obama a bumbling idiot would be an insult to bumbling idiots worldwide.)
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To: Salvation

And yet whenever I have asked a Catholic the question “If you died tonight, do you know if you’d go to Heaven?” the answer is always along the lines of “I hope so.” So no matter how you play your word dance, my experience with Catholic is that they don’t have assurance of salvation. My experience is that Catholics are on a “works-based” idea of salvation. Very sad, in my opinion.

If a person knows they are saved, then they know they are saved from the punishment for sin, which is death. The gift of being saved or salvation is eternal life with God (in Heaven).


20 posted on 02/06/2010 9:28:25 PM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: ScubieNuc

So if you were going to die tonight — yet you yelled at your husband/wife/children — do you know if you’d go to Heaven?

I doubt it. You would spend some time in Purgatory for those sins. But that topic will come up later.

As will what you mentioned faith and works.


21 posted on 02/06/2010 9:30:55 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: doc1019

**Once saved forever saved. Nothing to work towards. I asked Jesus to be my saviour over 30 years ago, I have nothing to work toward. My salvation is assured.**

And what about all the sins you committed in that time?


22 posted on 02/06/2010 9:31:50 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

23 posted on 02/06/2010 9:32:53 PM PST by narses ("lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi")
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To: doc1019

Give a Protestant a lesson, and he wants to know where is that in the Bible. Give him the Bible and he complains it’s too complicated.


24 posted on 02/06/2010 9:41:11 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Salvation
So if you were going to die tonight — yet you yelled at your husband/wife/children — do you know if you’d go to Heaven?

I doubt it. You would spend some time in Purgatory for those sins.


Yes, I know that I'd go to Heaven tonight, even if I just got done yelling at my wife or kids (rightly or wrongly). If salvation is based on my works then it depends on me. However the Bible tells us that salvation is based on Jesus, who never fails.

As for "purgatory", there is no such place. I place my faith in Jesus and in his word the Bible, and "purgatory" is not mentioned by or in either.
25 posted on 02/06/2010 9:42:05 PM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: annalex

**Give him the Bible and he complains it’s too complicated.**

Or too simple! LOL!


26 posted on 02/06/2010 9:45:50 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Jesus, as GOD, was aware of all our sins before we were born. With this knowledge, he died on the cross for us. His sacrifice suffices for all our sins (past, present and future) if we have accepted him as our saviour


27 posted on 02/06/2010 9:46:12 PM PST by doc1019 (To call Obama a bumbling idiot would be an insult to bumbling idiots worldwide.)
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To: ScubieNuc
If salvation is based on my works then it depends on me

Now that Christ offered you salvation it sure depends on you. If you do your part, you will be saved and if necessary, purified. If you don't, you won't. Matthew 25:31-46.

28 posted on 02/06/2010 9:46:59 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: ScubieNuc

No purgatory — no waiting place?

Where were all the souls of the Old Testament waiting so that they could enter the Kingdom of Heaven after Christ, the First Fruits, entered heaven?

The Bible tells us that when Christ died, the spirits arose from their tombs and wandered about Jerusalem, but only some could see them. They knew that Christ was opening up heaven for them, but first he had to descend to the dead and gather those souls.

It’s in the Creed. Check the link on the Creeds above. Or don’t you say a creed at your church? What church do you attend, then?


29 posted on 02/06/2010 9:49:45 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: doc1019
His sacrifice suffices for all our sins (past, present and future)

Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Romans 6:15)

30 posted on 02/06/2010 9:50:54 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Salvation

Well, not every protestant denomination believes it.

I think it’s a misunderstanding of free will, God’s promise that He will never lose His people, not one, and somehow this will ever prevent anyone who had at one time genuine faith, from using their God-given free will to either slowly drift away or drastically cut off from God.


31 posted on 02/06/2010 9:51:22 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: annalex
Now that Christ offered you salvation it sure depends on you. If you do your part, you will be saved and if necessary, purified.

Well, in the sense that I have the free will to choose to accept Christ's gift of salvation or reject it, yes, that does depend on my choice, but what I was refering to was salvation based on my works (like feeding the poor, etc.). The only "work" salvation is based on is the Work of Christ on the cross.

Even the verses you referenced don't say that doing those works saves a person. What it references is that a saved person would do those kinds of works. There is a difference, but I think you know that.
32 posted on 02/06/2010 9:55:04 PM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: Secret Agent Man

But these people who you say God will not abandon — which is true — BTW, ALWAUS need to come to God in humility first.

God always waits for us to knock at the door and start the process. That’s basically what these apologetics threads are about — forming a relationship with Jesus Christ.


33 posted on 02/06/2010 9:55:36 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Anyone who genuinely and sincerely wants to know God and have a relationship with Him, God says, will find Him.


34 posted on 02/06/2010 10:12:15 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: ScubieNuc
the verses you referenced don't say that doing those works saves a person. What it references is that a saved person would do those kinds of works

I don't see that in any scripture; certainly not in the scripture I referenced. Matthew 25, for example, relates the works and salvation directly, I don't know how Christ could have been clearer. You do this, you are saved at His Second Coming, you don't do this, you are condemned at His Second Coming. Works save.

That faith might inspire good works, no one disputes. That we are judged by our works is clear gospel. Therefore, if faith crosses into presumption of salvation, it is no longer mature faith. It is, in fact, a sin.

You earlier mentioned that references to hope bother you when they come from the Catholics. Yet hope is a theological virtue that is frequently mentioned in the New Testament. Security of salvation, on the other hand, is not a common topic anywhere. It is, in fact, not difficult to find verses that contradict it.

35 posted on 02/06/2010 10:14:37 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Salvation
Where were all the souls of the Old Testament waiting so that they could enter the Kingdom of Heaven after Christ, the First Fruits, entered heaven?

The Bible says that those from the Old Testament times when to Sheol or the grave. Some people think that the parable of Lazarus and the rich man shows us that the souls went to either a place of punishment or a place called "Abraham's Bosom". In the later senario, the belief is that when Jesus died, he brought those in "Abraham's bosom" up with him to Heaven.

Whatever the case was for the Old Testament righteous, that has little bearing on me today. What has more bearing is what Jesus told the thief on the cross next to him....

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Besides, none of your argument shows me any kind of Bible reference to a place called "purgatory".

It’s in the Creed. Check the link on the Creeds above. Or don’t you say a creed at your church? What church do you attend, then?

The Creeds don't supercede what is in the Bible. The Creeds were an attempt by some to summerize what they believed, and most of that is supported, by the Bible, but some of the Creeds are misleading. I have plenty of access to the Bible so I don't need a Creed to summerize what I believe, I just go to the source itself...the Bible.

As for the church I attend...it's a non-denominational, Christ centered, Bible believing Church.
36 posted on 02/06/2010 10:15:12 PM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: doc1019; Salvation; Petronski

Then if you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, and that He died for our sins...you seem to advocate that that would always hold, even if you do not live by His teachings, a life not pleasing to Him?

We are all called to follow Him. You acknowledge the existence of that path by the fact that you claim salvation through Christ. Yet you speak as though one could walk off that path.

It is by grace that we are saved, through faith in Christ. But how are we to prove our faith in our Savior? After all, not all who call ‘Lord, Lord’ shall be saved; your words seem to indicate otherwise.

1 John 2:1-10

1 My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the just:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3 And by this we know that we have known him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He who saith that he knoweth him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But he that keepeth his word, in him in very deed the charity of God is perfected; and by this we know that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him, ought himself also to walk, even as he walked.
7 Dearly beloved, I write not a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you have heard.
8 Again a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true both in him and in you; because the darkness is passed, and the true light now shineth.
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother, abideth in the light, and there is no scandal in him.

The Apostle John writes that those who claim to love Christ yet not follow His commandments is a liar.

Judging by your words, I can logically say “Well, I acknowledge Christ as my Savior. I am saved no matter what. Now I shall go forth and despise my brother, coveting my neighbor’s car, and lying to my boss. After all, Christ is my Savior.”

It doesn’t work like that. We are called to walk as He walked. Your words seem to say we don’t have to.


37 posted on 02/06/2010 10:16:35 PM PST by Ultra Sonic 007 (To view the FR@Alabama ping list, click on my profile!)
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To: Salvation

Once saved, always saved is 100% correct. Once someone is saved, the Holy Ghost dwells in them.

Christ said, “no one shall pluck them from my hands.” He didn’t say that no one shall pluck them from my hands, unless they sin.

PS: I am not condoning sin. We are to try our best to live a life that glorifies God...


38 posted on 02/06/2010 10:24:42 PM PST by kingpins10
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To: Salvation

Once saved, always saved is 100% correct. Once someone is saved, the Holy Ghost dwells in them.

Christ said, “no one shall pluck them from my hands.” He didn’t say that no one shall pluck them from my hands, unless they sin.

PS: I am not condoning sin. We are to try our best to live a life that glorifies God...


39 posted on 02/06/2010 10:25:25 PM PST by kingpins10
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To: Secret Agent Man
He will never lose His people

Very true (John 10 in particular comes to mind), but these promises are not separated from the genuine and free response of faith originating in the bosoms of the flock.

I, for one, never worry that He loses me. But if I do that which I will not (Romans 7:20) I worry not to lose Him.

The judgement is by the works. It is by grace alone, but it is by the works, that faith enables.

8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9 Not of works, that no man may glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2)

40 posted on 02/06/2010 10:25:25 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: ScubieNuc; Salvation

And why did Christ say such to the condemned criminal?

Luke 23:39-42

39 And one of those robbers who were hanged, blasphemed him, saying: If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering, rebuked him, saying: Neither dost thou fear God, seeing thou art condemned under the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this man hath done no evil.
42 And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom.

The criminal acknowledged his own sins, and acknowledged that Christ was without sin, blameless. The criminal then asked only that Christ remember him.

A literal “come to Jesus” moment before death. And is it not taught and accepted by all Christian denominations that those who truly repent are saved, even on their deathbed?

“Whatever the case was for the Old Testament righteous, that has little bearing on me today.”

It certainly should. Were their souls fundamentally different from ours? Did the salvation of Christ differ for them than it does for us?


41 posted on 02/06/2010 10:26:24 PM PST by Ultra Sonic 007 (To view the FR@Alabama ping list, click on my profile!)
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To: kingpins10

Once born again, you are born into His family. Nothing can remove to which family you are a member. And His family is ‘like Him’, as the Bible says when we see Him we shall be like Him. Thus we are forever His family members once born into His family (John 3:5-8).


42 posted on 02/06/2010 10:27:12 PM PST by MHGinTN (Obots, believing they cannot be deceived, it is impossible to convince them when they are deceived.)
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To: kingpins10
Once saved, always saved is 100% correct. Once someone is saved, the Holy Ghost dwells in them.

And if one denies the Holy Ghost?

43 posted on 02/06/2010 10:27:34 PM PST by Ultra Sonic 007 (To view the FR@Alabama ping list, click on my profile!)
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To: ScubieNuc

Sheol can be interpreted as another word for hell or Purgatory.


44 posted on 02/06/2010 10:34:00 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: annalex
I've got to get to bed, but here are a couple of quick references to "Knowing you are saved" and "Faith saves" not works.

1John 5:10-13 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


Those verse show a couple of things. One, it emphasizes belief in Jesus saves. Two, it explains why the information was written down....so that people would KNOW that through belief they have (not might have, or might get, but actually, currently have ) eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I don't know how the Bible could be any clearer. You are saved through faith, NOT OF WORKS.

Now the one set of verses you could have said "described a type of purgatory" would have been 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. However when you read those verses you learn that the foundation of a believer is Christ and the works get tested but the person is saved because their foundation is Christ.

1Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Now, you are free to put the shackles of "salvation by works" on your shoulders if you really want to, but I know that that theology isn't supported by the Bible, so I won't.
45 posted on 02/06/2010 10:36:14 PM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: ScubieNuc
Bible reference to a place called "purgatory".

This is a childish argument. The Bible also doesn't mention the Trinity, or "Bible alone", or communion by grape juice and matzot, and when it does mention "faith alone", the Protestant big-kahuna-doo, it refutes it.

The idea that man who is judged saved might nevertheless be tested for impurities and then purified of them, is expressed in 1 Cor 3:7-15, clearly. It is in fact one of those passages where the Protestant myth-making really hits the fan. There is no passage that invited people to heaven dirty as they are.

The good thief on the cross died a saint. He sure did not die to lead us to impurity. St. Dismas, the Holy Criminal, pray for us sinners and forgive our stupidity.


46 posted on 02/06/2010 10:41:51 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: ScubieNuc

**theology isn’t supported by the Bible**

That’s a strange thing to say in my way of thinking. Care to explain?


47 posted on 02/06/2010 10:51:28 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ScubieNuc
That you have eternal life if you have the Son, is a tall order. I know that Christ died for me, but unless I die for Him (please, Lord), -- I don't know if I "have Him".

Other than through the Eucharist, which indeed gives us an abundant assurance of salvation, which verse curiously no Protestant heretic will ever quote back to me, John 6:55

He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day

But that I cannot just take. I have to be of mature discerning faith:

he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. (1 Cor. 11:29)

Ephesians 2:8,9 only seems to deny the salvation by grace alone through faith and works if you never read the rest of the paragraph. So, read the rest of the paragraph.

Good night.

48 posted on 02/06/2010 10:55:08 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: ScubieNuc
Definition of Theology

THEOLOGY

Literally "the science of God," used by the Stoics in the third century B.C. to describe a reasoned analysis of the deity. Earlier uses were more naturalistic. Thus, Plato in the Republic and Aristotle in his Metaphysics called Homer, Hesiod, and Orpheus theologians because they first determined the genealogies and attributes of the gods.

With the advent of Christianity, theology came to mean what its etymolgy suggested, and was defined by St. Augustine as "reasoning or discourse about the divinity." Through the patristic age to the period of The Schoolmen, this remained the acceptable generic meaning. Peter Abelard (1079-1142) is credited with first having used the term in its modern connotation. St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-74) defended theology as a science because it investigates the contents of belief by means of reason enlightened by faith (fides quaerens intellectum), in order to acquire a deeper understanding or revelation. He also distinguished theology proper from "natural theology" or what Gottfried Leibniz later called "theolodicy," which studies God as knowable by reason alone and independent of divine authority. Since the thirteenth century the term has been applied to the whole study of revealed truth and gradually replaced its reival synonyms. (Etym. Latin theologia; from Greek: theo, God + -logia, knowledge.)

All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.

Hmmmmm.

49 posted on 02/06/2010 10:56:37 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Care to explain?

It's a school night.

50 posted on 02/06/2010 10:56:51 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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